Brake shoes keep unadjusting

[CJM]

This one is stumping me, I put the new axle on my truck and the brakes were nice and tight. Drove for a bit and it feels like the fronts braking way more than it should be. Bleed everything 3x to be sure theres no air, adjust the rear shoes so they are tight.

I drive down the road 5 miles and the pedal is again low and I jack it up and check the rears and sure enough its become unadjusted somehow. tighten them up and its ok again for 5 miles.

Ideas? thinking perhaps the springs and adjusters are worn out. When I put the new rear axle on everything was very clean and new looking believe it not. Im thinking I should replace all the springs and the adjusters?

[Marc P]

Maybe the adjusters are installed backwards? I have seen it before at my work.

[CJM]

IE they are on the wrong sides of the truck? Maybe the stopper brackets on the wrong side? I doubt that since the star wheels in the right spot. I also noticed I had it adjusted just fine-then spun the tires and yanked the e-brake cable to stop them-wouldnt you know it loosend up some..

Im thinking perhaps the parts are maybe one of the following:

1. Worn out from sitting, this was a junkyard axle that was CAKED in rust outside. The inside of the drums and all parts are however very clean.

2. After speaking with a friend he suggested I maybe lube the adjusters with anti-sieze. Perhaps they are rusted inside or something on the threads.

3. Possible bad wheel cylinders? They arent leaking but maybe they are weak from sitting?

IDK really. I suppose I could yank all my good parts off my old axle or just buy new parts (think it would be about 50 for everything anyways, springs and adjusters). Then put them all on knowing they are good.

[04 Rocko Taco]

If it is that cheap for new stuff, I would go that route, so you would at least eliminate that possibility.

[CJM]

Yea I just dropped 50 bucks at rock auto for the adjusters, the bracketry for the adjusters and all new springs.

Im thinking one of the adjusters has to be on backwards but until I get all the parts Im not gonna crack it open for fear I take it apart and Im SOL or something. I dont have any long distance driving coming up and the pedals ok for now-just a bit low.

[04 Rocko Taco]

HERE (http://www.ncttora.com/fsm/T-100/1996%20Toyota%20T100%20FSM.pdf) is a link to a '96 T100 FSM to verify the drum brake setup.

[CJM]

Thanks Chris.

So 3 things:

1. The drivers side drum needs to be cut or most likely Ill buy a new one. Might as well buy a set. Its warped inside and thus the reason it loosens up it seems (or feels that way) I think. We all know the shoes must be literally almost touching the drums on these trucks, the one pass side is and nicely might I add. The drivers side is not and you can clearly see it.

2. The self adjuster brackets on this axle are the same as my old one but apparently mine were long missing some kinda spring that holds the adjuster bracket in place. Both sides have it so it belongs. I find this interesting, it doesnt seem to be needed in all honesty since I drove for god only knows how long on the old axle with them.

3. This baffles me. The adjusters gotta be on the wrong sides or something b/c I just tried to do the e-brake adjust method and the damn brakes got looser.. what gives..

So Im gonna buy some drums. Everything and I mean everything in there (despite the outside looking like it sat in a mud swap for 25 years and rusted to death)is SUPER clean. Amazing really, its cleaner than my old axle was..

What really sucks is I probably should change the shoes just to be picky when I do everything. I dont wanna :P

[CJM]

Figured Id make a small update of my plans..

So if the shoes de-adjust when I hit the parking brake instead of adjust I think the adjusters are on the wrong side. Especially since I noticed that when ordering they indicate a left and right side with different part numbers. Gonna swap the sides and see what happens.

[Seanz0rz]

i would try that first marc. it could save you a bit of coin, especially if they are otherwise in great condition.

[CJM]

They are on the correct sides Sean. I just tried to swap them and you cant adjust them properly if they are on the wrong sides, so I put them back the other way. I adjusted it good, took apart part of the e-brake mech. on the pass side rear b/c it seemed to be sticking and I cleaned and lubed it as well. I can physically see thru the inspection hole the shoe is where its supposed to be-nearly touching the drum.

Put it all back together and slapped on some new drums just to be sure and its adjusted. Didnt drive much but, it felt good. Guess we'll see what happens. Im stumped at this point if it un-adjusts. I mean drum brakes are rather simple...

Only other idea I have is perhaps i need to rig up a higher bracket for the LSPV as the rears might be activating too late or something.

[CJM]

IDK. I drove it around the block a bit, feels good now. I put a higher LSPV bracket I had made for when I ran some helper leaf springs. Maybe its just me, maybe I had been driving with that bracket for god only knows how long and I inadvertently changed to the lower one by mistake when i did the axle..

Lets see if they loosen up.

[04 Rocko Taco]

Keep us updated on this Marc, I am interested.

[CJM]

Ok so I had adjusted them so they were super good, very little slack on them. Could turn the tires maybe 1.5 turns wqith a good shove.

I go to a work friday morning and everything seems fine, got a great pedal (travel to stop was maybe 1 inch). On the way home I notice they are dragging. I de-adjust them some. That night I go to a wake, holy hell the damn shoes are now adjusting the opposite way and literally dragging BADLY. I stop, de-adjust them some and its ok. Wtf it does it again like 10 miles later. I finally de-adjust them so I barely have pedal.

3 hours later Im back on the road to PA pulling my trailer with some piping we had to install at my cabin. If I hit the brakes it pulsates bad from the back. Im thinking wtf is going on here. Stop and wtf they are adjusted more again.

Then I think: I adjusted the e-brake cable some to tighten up some slack that there was. I also adjusted the e-brake levers on the one drum a good bit b/c there was slack there. I had recalled when reading the FSM that there should be no more than 1/4 of an inch of that bolt on these things sticking out. I realize theres a good inch on the one.

Came back from the trip mostly using the O/D to slow down and coasting as much as I could. There was no time for parts stores or to play around with this. Get home, check everything-damn drums spin freely. So I throw the old drums on and check the fronts as well for warpage with a run out tool. Fronts seem fine. I also sanded the old drums a bit and the shoes thinking they got glazed.

Take it for a ride, pedals low but no pulsating at all. Im thinking the self adjusters/self adjuster lever in the drums was getting thrown outta wack perhaps by a too tight e-brake cable and that adjuster. But IDK.. I dont F'n get it, makes little sense. At least the brand new rotors seem fine, I dont want to do that job again.

So ugh that was my weekend..

[Obi..]

If you adjust them too close it's the same as if they were adjusted too far out. The anti-lock will kick in. There's a fine line you'll need to use doing them and if possible do it 1-3 clicks as necessary every 3000-5000 miles with your oil changes. I had it happen this past week, adjusted them 1 click too far each side and it would pulsate the ABS, drove 500 miles and now they're fine. :D

[CJM]

Maybe that was it, scared the hell out of me.

I got them adjusted pretty good but it could be more. pedals just a tad low and fronts are working just a tad too hard. One side appears to be touching almost touching the drum and the other is a bit less.

Funny thing is even when I had a leaking axle shaft seal and one of the wheel cylinders was leaking I never needed to adjust them it seemed.

Gonna play with it some more tomorrow and see what happens.

[04 Rocko Taco]

One of those weird situations, Definitely keep us updated ion what is going on.

[CJM]

I played with it again today and they seem to be adjusted good now. But I didnt take it for very long of a drive (just around the block). Id like to bleed them again to ensure I dont have air in the lines but I lack a helper atm.

Indeed one of those odd situations. I have all the luck huh?

[Obi..]

I have all the luck huh?


Hold a BBQ and call it "Sacrificing a chicken" to the Toyota Gods?

Voodoo beats bad juju any day. :D
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/50356_33668698197_4802423_n.jpg

[CJM]

haha..

[CJM]

So its been a bit and no real change. Ive adjusted, de-adjusted, etc the brakes. I might try to put the new drums back on and see wtf is up but Im not hopefull.

Im not sure but Im thinking Im going to bleed the rear brakes again. All signs point to some possible air trapped in the lines as the shoes are adjusted properly but the pedal is low and pumping it helps a bit. Funny there might be air in there, there was no air coming out the lines when I bled each spot like 6x to be sure.

I think Im only going to bleed the rears, procedure is RL, RR, LSPV or should I so LSPV first then bleed the wheel cylinders?

[04 Rocko Taco]

I've always seen the tech manuals to either say:

A) Start with LSPV, and then work around from farthest from the master cylinder to the closest.
B) Farthest from Master Cylinder to closest, LSPV last.

Seems to me you will be better off starting with the LSPV though.

[YotaFun]

According to the Toyota FSM,
You should bleed the Master first (IF it has gone low or dry)
Then you bleed the wheels. (the factory has no set location on where to to start and end, I would do farthest to closest)
Then the LSPV or as Toyota puts it LSP & BV (Load Sensing Proportioning and By-Pass Valve)

[CJM]

Hmm. Wonder since the master got low if I should bleed it. Argh..more work. I suppose if I was to cycle enough fluid thru it (I really dont want to bench bleed it) that it should get the air out. Did it that way before. Or I could reverse the fluid thru I suppose with the vac brake bleeder.

btw, how the heck you been Avy? I havent talked to you in ages!

[04 Rocko Taco]

FWIW - I have had some SKETCHY brake systems to work on over the years and have NEVER bled a master cylinder, not even a brand new one, dry out of the box.

[YotaFun]

Marc, I have been good, busy trying to make some money to afford to actually drive the 4Runner anymore, but thats rare...

Chris, its touch an god, but alot of us bench bleed and bleed the master in the vehicle when we replace it.

Especially on the 01-02 4Runners and even further with the brake accumulator, run those dry and ruin it and thats another 1500 for a brake master....

Stepdad's 02 might need one but right now she is braking good ::Knocks on wood::

[CJM]

I been driving the truck more and more, brakes feel pretty dang good. Honestly I bet the drums are worn b/c I slapped the old ones on b/c I feared the news ones got warped.

IDK Ill have to bleed the lines when I get a chance and throw on those drums..see what happens.

Avy, I hear ya. just driving the 20 mile round trip to work is killing me! Ill be doing a 50 mile a day commute 4x a week for school and then that same 20 mile commute for work 2x a week come the fall. I pray gas prices go down!

[Seanz0rz]

you guys are making me feel even worse about my 80 mile round trip to school. ouch...

glad the brakes are feeling better. still very strange!

[CJM]

Indeed strange...

Shame the other axle wouldnt stop leaking, the brakes were super good when I had that one. IDK. Same thing happened to a ford work van I once swapped a rear into-brakes were never as good as they were with the new rear.

[04 Rocko Taco]

I have a 74 mi round trip to work.




Nothing else to add. *looks around for his pirate flip off smiley*


EDIT: AH-HA!! :flipoff:

[YotaFun]

I'm with Sean, I drive a minimum of 80 miles a day...

The trip isn't really the problem it is work and it being SLOW with big jobs.
I can do oil change and rotates all day but still doesn't add up enough to give me an 8 hour day....

thats why I have time to linger here and other forums and try to provide Tech help to those who need it since I have the resources...

[CJM]

I hear ya guys. Work for me can be busy or slow or have peridos of busy or slow during the day. Today I did 9 jobs and 7 of them were before 12pm, from 12-2 I did zilch then I had 2 at 2:30.

[CJM]

Just an update:
I adjusted the brakes 3 more clicks each side. ROCK SOLID. Stupid things are finnicky.

[Obi..]

Yep. Plan on doing it after the next 5k. Glad it worked. :D

[CJM]

Im willing to bet on it Obi

FWIW I never adjusted the drums really on the old axle and somehow they were good.