Misfire Cyls 2 & 5- Injectors?

[mastacox]

Note- I went ahead and started my own "real" thread so I would stop hijacking Bob's LCA thread and my other "fuel injectors wanted" thread... :ban:



Soooommmmbeeaaatch. Went to the gym today, took the 4runner. As mentioned up above, changed out the plug wires and switched the coil packs. No code but running a little rough w/ stumbling. Today, fargin' code. Guess which one? Yup P303 and P304 again. So again, this is after I switched the coil packs.

Dude we're having the exact same problems, except I think my misfire is maybe worse because the CEL light is blinkning a lot for me... Things got better for a little after I swapped in OEM plugs, but now the problems are back with a vengeance :asshat:

I drove to work this morning and the CEL flashed nearly the whole time, so bad that I called up a shop and dropped it by at lunch... of course it ran not too bad on the way over :roll: It seems to me I get the most misfiring when it's been sitting overnight and is cool outside, but doesn't get better after the engine warms up. BUT, when it's been sitting in the parking lot at work in the sun, the engine runs better and doesn't misfire much at first. Very weird...

The shop bawked when I told them some of the stuff I have on the car's fuel system, such as the fuel injectors not being Toyota OEM, but they're going to try and diagnose if the injectors are firing correctly and a compression test. The guy was more receptive when I told him I just wanted to try and have them help narrow down where the problem is for a start.

I'm not burning oil so it doesn't seem like I could have a piston rings issue, but maybe valves (although I put remanufactured heads on just 3 years ago). I'm hoping and not hoping it's the injectors; on the one hand I won't have to swap in a whole new engine if it's just injectors, on the other they'll be hard to find. I'm going to have to bitch at Gadget until he sells me a spare or six... I'm willing to buy 6 just to have them on hand for a rainy day at this point! :argue:

[Bob98SR5]

ok now to hijack your thread! :P Actually, better that you and i talk about the plugs in this thread than the LCA one.

brian, for a short time i had the blinking CEL light too. when i changed my plug wires it stopped---for 2-3 days. now its back on.

i have the same symptoms: if sitting in colder weather overnight, in the morning it runs like crap. for me though, warming up helps. However, doesnt eliminate the stumbling i feel thru the shifter. and acceleration in 1st and 2nd sucks.

welp, gonna try new plugs now, i doubt this is the solution.

[Seanz0rz]

ok ill chip in with my past issues.

about a year or two after i bought the truck, i had a stumble around 1800 rpm. usually doing about 55 in traffic on the freeway. never got a CEL for that. I replaced the fuel filter, but it didn't make a difference. replaced plugs and wires and that fixed the problem.

no problems until last late winter, when i had a misfire (random and 1 and 4 IIRC). this only occured when the engine was cold. i narrowed it down to it being moist. once the days warmed up above the dew point, the problem went away. that is, until i went through a water crossing much deeper than i expected in mojave. got a misfire again from that. then again in BB doing some puddle crossings. I haven't had a problem since then with it, but as the mornings get colder, i expect the problem to return and then be corrected by new plugs and wires (i am due for it).

I'm not sure that experience is helpful to you, but at least it's here for others.

[mastacox]

Sooo, took the 4Runner to the shop, expecting the worst...

Turns out I have 2 bad coils instead of one :chair: I swapped the bad coils for each other and did nothing to troubleshoot! They replaced both and say it runs great now. Pick it up tomorrow :asshat:

[Seanz0rz]

glad it was something reasonably simple and low cost. could have been worse!

[mastacox]

That's the truth! Better than having to muck with the fuel system :thumbup:

I'm having the shop put in my new Toytec Bilstein coilovers this morning and I pick it up this afternoon. We're going out on a trip this weekend and I don't have time to put them in myself!

[mastacox]

SO...

The new coils didn't fix it. It seemed to be running pretty well when I first picked up the car, but as soon as I pushed it into boost it would start misfiring. Now 2 days later later the misfire is back just as bad as before (and still cyls 2 & 5). I'm calling up the shop to take the 4Runner back and troubleshoot more; might be time for a fuel pressure test and compression test :loser:

The symptoms are strange; it seems if I keep the engine out of boost, and go easy on the throttle, it won't misfire at all. But if I push it a little harder it will begin the misfire, and once it starts misfiring it doesn't want to stop. No major jumping or backfiring or anything, just a loss in power, rougher idle, and it idles lean.

Guess it all points to either a fuel or timing related issue... I wonder if my cam position sensor is going bad or something? I need to try driving around with the OBD reader plugged in to see what the fuel trims and timing advance are doing when it starts throwing the misfire code.

[mastacox]

Update-

Looks like I have the problem at least 90% quantified- it's the fuel injector on cyl #5. :great::

I went and visited a tuning shop in Arlington that does race cars in the DFW area. The guy was pretty helpful right from the get go, and we didn't have to take anything apart in the engine yet. Basically I gave him the full rundown of my symptoms and we both agree I've probably got a sticky fuel injector, and since the code is cyls 2 & 5 it's probably #5 since that injector sits under the supercharger at the rear of the engine near the exhaust collector.

SO, he recommended I do a test; fuel injector cleaner and judicious throttle. I told him I had already tried a can of Seafoam fuel injector cleaner in the tank, his response was try again but MORE because he doubted just one treatment would do much :bowdown: So I went and got two large-size Chevron fuel injector cleaner treatments (20 oz ea, for treating 20+ gallons of fuel) and ran them through two tanks driving down the highway this weekend to the Ultra4 National Champioinships in Blackwell (http://ultra4racing.com/category/texana-national-champ/). Things have definitely gotten better.

Oh and I mentioned I needed to do some judicious throttle too- the entire drive I wanted to maximize the injector cleaner getting into the sticky injector, so every time it would do some of it's misfiring shenanigans I would downshift and do about 75% throttle to push about 5 psi of boost and dump more fuel. Believe it or not, it worked like a charm haha :screwy: Driving back it didn't misfire at all!

SO I'm going to talk to the shop again this week, he said rather than "throw parts at the problem" (I love him already) he would prefer to first swap the suspect injector to another cylinder and see if the misfire moves. This would 100% nail down the problem, and if it does then we could get them sent out to be cleaned and flowed.

I'm glad I just gave up on the other "foreign car repair" shop, talking for 30 minutes with this guy (for free by the way) gave me a lot more insight if nothing else to be able to bounce my problems off a fuel-injection tuning guru and see what he thought. They're going to be a bad influence on me though, he's already talking me into dumping the piggyback control system and going standalone instead to get the Toyota ECU out of the mix altogether :lol:

[mastacox]

I forgot to mention the guy also pointed out my rough idle starting when cold in the mornings could also point to a poorly sealing injector. If the injector doesn't seal fully over cyl 5 and drips fuel on top of the valve during the night, then in the morning when I start up the fuel dumps into the cylinder and makes it run all rough and rich until it burns it all off. Makes sense now that I think of it...

[Obi..]

Cool to hear. Buy the guy whatever case of booze he wants. Smart and experienced machanics are a rare find these days. Too many "Techs" out there that are only "Screen Reading Button Pushing Parts Changers".

[mastacox]

Buy the guy whatever case of booze he wants. Smart and experienced machanics are a rare find these days.

Good call, I'm going to have to do this. :thumbup:

[CJM]

witch hunter performance will rebuild them for 20 bucks brian. I had them do a set of injectors for a ford truck and it was well worth the money! Cause buying a new injector (if you gotta) is stupid expensive.

[Crinale]

Cool to hear. Buy the guy whatever case of booze he wants. Smart and experienced machanics are a rare find these days. Too many "Techs" out there that are only "Screen Reading Button Pushing Parts Changers".


x2 on that!

Glad to hear the problem is being narrowed down. Code gremlins are annoying buggers.

[Stevo3]

mastacox whats up man, havent been around in a rather long time. I too am told to get rid of the toyota ecu and go with a stand alone. Might have to have it tuned by a shop on a dyno, but its well worth it. When I can find someone in Arizona that can do this that I can also trust. The Underdog ECU crap will be out in a heartbeat.

BTW: how you guys all doing?

[paddlenbike]

Have you guys ever tuned a standalone? Tuning for power at WOT is easy, but getting the idle, cold start and normal driveability down is really time consuming. I won't even mention emissions issues or the fact that you could no longer drop the truck off at a mechanic if it doesn't run right. That could be disastrous on a long trip.

[mastacox]

I agree standalone would be a hard thing to accomplish, and it would be expensive too. The guy says the best way to accomplish standalone would be a full on-board logging solution, e.g. FULL logging of RPM, MAP, O2, fuel trims, timing, etc. The thing holding me back more than anything is the road legality and sellability, plus the work I guess.

I'm more interested in going to a "better" piggyback solution that can use wideband O2 input for fuel trims. The PerfectPower SMT-8 might be a possibility, but I haven't gotten my courage up enough to try it yet. Maybe next decade :thumbup:

[paddlenbike]

Personally, I would ditch those Bosch injectors and go back to the stock injectors. (Even though you have to change your injector clips back.) I have never had good luck with Bosch anything and it's possible that one or more injectors are giving you problems anyway. Pick up the URD 7th injector setup...it's just way simpler to tune--let the stock ECU and injectors take care of everything and you can just pull a bit of timing at low RPMs and add fuel where you need it in open loop.

I know it would be a painful move considering all of the work you've done at this point, but it might take care of your misfire problem as well as your tuning issues in one shot.

[Bob98SR5]

brian,

great news on the injectors. time to buy some of the same injector cleaner as you did.

[mastacox]

Run a LOT of it, maybe 3 bottles over 3 tanks or so and see if it helps. You can also get a shop to swap an injector position pretty easily.

You might also run premium fuel if you don't already to see if it helps; this can help rule out a timing issue.

[Bob98SR5]

Brian,

Bought two bottles of Chevron injector cleaner. In a half a tank, I dumped the whole 20oz of that stuff in the tank. Within 5 minutes of driving back from the tire shop for the alignment, there was a "kunk" sound and the check engine light went off. The engine ran a little more smoothly after that but still i can tell its not perfect. However driving back from the gym, the light went on and a little bit of the annoying stumbling came back on. Arghhhh (not the sound of a pirate, but of frustration). So on my way back from the gym, I flipped a beotch and stopped at Autozone and bought some Seafoam too. I plan to run about 1/4 to 1/2 bottle through the PCV valve hose and smoke out the neighborhood tomorrow night (my ass is too tired tonight). After I go through the remaining 1/2 tank of gas, I plan to refill it to 1/2 and run the remaining Seafoam again through, this time through the gas tank.

If all this fails, I plan to remove the plenum and remove the offending injectors (2 of them) and send them to the witch hunter guy. $21 per injector plus $10 shipping back to you.

[4x4mike]

Note to self: Don't go to Bob's gym.

[Bob98SR5]

Brian,

Update: no changes in condition of stumbling. Time to remove some stuff and send in the injectors.

[mastacox]

Time for another update-

Well after 2 more months of procrastinating, I've decided it's time to do something more permanent about the injectors. The misfire stays away for the most part (not completely), but things just don't "feel" like they should, and I think it might be due to the engine running extra timing retard to tune out some knock from Cyl 5...

As I mentioned before, my current injectors are kind of a problem because I can't really tell if the problem is a rebuildable one, or if #5 will have to be replaced due to a coil problem or something. Point is, I can't replace #5 if there is a problem because I can't buy these injectors anymore, so if I send them out to get cleaned and #5 is bad, I have to buy a whole new set anyway. SO I've kind of decided that I have to get rid of them for the overall maintainability of the vehicle...

The solution presented itself at www.fiveomotorsport.com (http://www.fiveomotorsport.com), a 310 cc/min Denso injector for (would you believe it) a Mazda RX-8 or Tacoma 2.7l http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/195500-4430-rx8. Five-O claims this injector will fit my rails, so we'll see how it goes... If it does work, I'm back in the "near-OEM" range with a higher-quality injector, and if I'm lucky better fuel atomization too.

http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/catalogues/1450/4430-rx7c_600.jpg
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/catalogues/1450/195500-4430-1b_600.jpg

This also means I have to go back to Toyota fuel injector plugs from the Bosch ones I converted to way back in 2006, not a huge problem I bought the pigtails too and will dump the Bosch ones. The new injectors go in this weekend (and the old ones go to Ebay, assuming everything fits)...

[YotaFun]

Keep Us Posted, Def interested to see if they fit, if they do thats great!

[paddlenbike]

Google "Bosch to Toyota injector adapter" and see if one is made that is compatible with the 5VZ plug style.

[mastacox]

Keep Us Posted, Def interested to see if they fit, if they do thats great!


I'm 50/50 on whether they'll fit, but from what I can find online and trying to compare pictures they are about the right length; the overall body is slimmer (possibly due to coil/valve design changes) but we'll see. There are a lot of different Denso injectors available in this "slim body design," which also means it opens up a lot of options for me to mix/match for different flow rates if I desire...



Google "Bosch to Toyota injector adapter" and see if one is made that is compatible with the 5VZ plug style.


I know they have the reverse (Toyota Male to Bosch Female), or I could probably make a custom adapter, but why even bother?

In reality I should have found something like this 7 years ago when I first bought and installed the URD kit, but at the time they (URD) just sold solder-in pigtails with the kit (now they sell adapters). I'd rather just convert back to Toyota, since I'll be going away from Bosch anyway, and if in the future I need to go to yet another injector type (unlikely) I'll use adapters at that time.

[paddlenbike]

In reality I should have found something like this 7 years ago when I first bought and installed the URD kit, but at the time they (URD) just sold solder-in pigtails with the kit (now they sell adapters). I'd rather just convert back to Toyota, since I'll be going away from Bosch anyway, and if in the future I need to go to yet another injector type (unlikely) I'll use adapters at that time.


I agree with you 100%, just thought I would throw that option out there. Some friends and I played with different injectors in our Supras and we learned first-hand that you can't beat OEM. I went from the stock Denso 440cc injectors to stock Denso 550cc injectors from a Mazda RX7 turbo, which had the same body and even the same connector as Toyota, but the car never did idle perfectly because the spray pattern was not engineered specifically for that particularly application. Friends swapped in Venom and RC injectors and had the same problems until they went back to stock injectors. I'm really happy to have the 7th injector setup on the 4Runner where I get the extra fueling when needed but the stock injectors take care of the fueling 95% of the time.

[mastacox]

SO I got the new injectors installed, and they work :clap: The hardest part of the whole project was soldering in the new pigtails, but other than that I would say everything went pretty smoothly, and the engine seems to be running well. I'll have to drive it a bit before I can be sure, but from a lap around the block the idle seems smooth, and no weird noises...

On to the pics!

Step 1: Remove supercharger. I decided to appreciate this accomplishment with a beer.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/2013-02-10_12-52-19_210_zpsb9d1cb22.JPG

Step 2: I admire the old injectors, and wish there was an easier way to get to them. Then unbolt the fuel rails and have another beer.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/2013-02-10_12-53-09_433_zps5357a8d1.JPG

The old injectors were getting old, going on 7 years. They've done pretty well for that time period and some of the punishment I've put them through haha.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-20136of23_zps3558336c.JPG

The old injectors look a lot different than the new ones, but the two interface ends are very similar, the Denso one actually being a better fit in the lower intake manifold. The way they seat the Denso's are about 1/8" longer between the rail and manifold, but they still fit in the fuel rails without modification (although I probably could have spaced the rails up 1/8" using washers).
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201314of23_zps6931b8d3.JPG

I'm hoping the new injectors will have better atomization than the old ones, they have more holes at least.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201315of23_zps9554e5e1.JPG

Upper seal is basically the same, fits the rail perfectly.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201317of23_zps31d217b1.JPG

URD Bosch fuel injector pigtail vs. the new Denso pigtail from Five-O. desoldering the old ones and putting in the new ones was kind of a PITA, but worth it in the long run.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201319of23_zps4528e6b2.JPG

Old ones bagged, not sure what I'm going to do with them yet. The new ones are ready to go in:
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201318of23_zps4df36285.JPG

Step 3: New injectors put in. They fit well, although the top gasket does get pretty smashed without spacing the fuel rail up slightly. I don't think it affects the functionality of the injectors though, so I didn't bother putting it on hold to find washers.
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201321of23_zps4278736e.JPG

New injector sitting in seat:
http://pictures.strikeforceniner.com/wp-content/gallery/photobucket-pictures/NewInjectors1-24-201323of23_zpsebd3b9dd.JPG

Step 4: put all back together and have another beer to celebrate accomplishment. I'm hopeful that these will get me back to proper running condition, overall it wasn't too much work since I'm familiar with the area. We'll see!

:drink: :wrenchin:

[mastacox]

On a related note, I switched back to Denso IK-22 spark plugs when I put the new injectors in (I had changed to Toyota OEM in a desperate attempt to diagnose the misfire a while back). Taking the old plugs out they all looked the same and had similar color and wear. In other words, no indication of a "problem" in any of the cylinders. Whichever cylinder the persistent misfire was in (2 or 5), it apparently wasn't bad enough to cause spark plug discoloration, which I'm thinking is a good thing.

[paddlenbike]

Good job Brian, I look forward to your update.

I still can't get over how powerful the 4Runner is with the supercharger. Before the supercharger the truck didn't have much extra power for passing at 8,000 ft but now it will make a quick pass on the steepest of grades without even downshifting. I love it!

[YotaFun]

Sweet Brian! Glad it worked out and good to know for future tech for anyone looking to S/C and need an injector option.

All this talk of Superchargers, you all are really making my consider one...
I don't know if I can justify the price of one, especially on my motor with a beat 200K....

[CJM]

Oh how I wish I could supercharge my T100.

One of these days maybe Ill attempt it. However not an easy task,w hat with possible ECU swap or custom stand alone units, injectors, fuel pump, 7th injector, etc.

At that rate I could spend the 4k Id probably have into it towards a 03-06 tundra :)

[paddlenbike]

There is nothing difficult about the installation. I started installing the supercharger at 8pm one night and was out test driving it by 2am. The URD install isn't bad either, cut a fuel line and install a T-fitting, remove the EGR block off plate and replace it with the 7th injector, then tap six ECU wires and make the connections. I did the fuel pump a few months later and that's an hour and a half max. It was all very much worth the effort.

While it's fun to blow by everyone on my way skiing, by far the best part is being able to tow a big heavy trailer over grades and not have the truck struggle. I'm interested in a travel trailer and have zero concerns about its ability to pull it over mountain grades. So as I see it, it was a practical purchase that meant I didn't have to get a big roadhog pickup truck. :)

[YotaFun]

Install is not my concern,
The auto trans is my concern...

[paddlenbike]

Install is not my concern,
The auto trans is my concern...


Swap in a manual. :)

Brian, did you notice a big difference when you went to the smaller SC pulley? I'm still on the stock one.

[CJM]

Find T100 trans :) I bet the rear and D-shafts they yanked out for me is part of a whole truck sitting there to be picked upon.

Course you could always pay a visit to level 10, they rebuilt my dads vette's trans and had to have parts made b/c its so rare. its like 1200 in parts with the clutches and the valve body (about 600 ea).

Hamburg NJ where level ten is, is about 2 hours or so from you as well.

[YotaFun]

Swap in a manual. :)


I plan on it eventually actually, but right now a frame swap is coming.



Find T100 trans :) I bet the rear and D-shafts they yanked out for me is part of a whole truck sitting there to be picked upon.

Course you could always pay a visit to level 10, they rebuilt my dads vette's trans and had to have parts made b/c its so rare. its like 1200 in parts with the clutches and the valve body (about 600 ea).

Hamburg NJ where level ten is, is about 2 hours or so from you as well.


Marc, I don't see spending that much on a trans when I can buy a whole truck for $900 lol

[CJM]

You got a good point Avy! Course, it would be the last trans you ever have to worry about.

[mastacox]

Brian, did you notice a big difference when you went to the smaller SC pulley? I'm still on the stock one.


The 2.2" pulley pushes about 9 psi max at sea level, about 3 psi more than the stock pulley; my feeling is you're probably around 260-270 hp with your current setup and you'll be closer to 320 hp (at the crank) with the 2.2" pulley. Not bad for a $100, I'm surprised you haven't done it yet (especially since you've already got the fuel for it) :lol: It's the easiest 50 hp you'll ever bolt on :wrenchin:

[paddlenbike]

The 2.2" pulley pushes about 9 psi max at sea level, about 3 psi more than the stock pulley; my feeling is you're probably around 260-270 hp with your current setup and you'll be closer to 320 hp (at the crank) with the 2.2" pulley. Not bad for a $100, I'm surprised you haven't done it yet (especially since you've already got the fuel for it) :lol: It's the easiest 50 hp you'll ever bolt on :wrenchin:


320 hp sounds promising. :devil:

The only thing standing between me and the 2.2" pulley is a smog check that I need to find time for in the next few weeks. Then it's power-on!

[Crinale]

You guys are making me want a supercharger :chair:

[paddlenbike]

Smog check done, it's pulley time. The shop I usually go to would not smog my truck. Basically, he's a lazy idiot and wouldn't listen about the CARB exemption sticker under the hood or anything I had to say. I took it across the street, explained what had just happened and he correctly said "as long as you have the sticker, you're good."

[4x4mike]

So with your regular guy, did he fail it on the visual inspection because of the SC?

[paddlenbike]

Correct. I have never heard of anyone having trouble smogging a SC'd truck. There are plenty of recent SC'd vehicles out there, Xterras, Range Rovers, Mercedes cars, even many of the mid-90s Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs were SC'd. Smog techs have direct access to CARB's exemption database--heck, all you have to google the ARB Order No. shown below on the under-hood sticker and it's easy to find the exemption. He was just lazy and didn't want to deal with it.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2Zcb3XW8W0s/TrBWTywfPUI/AAAAAAAAGDg/mxhRb1Suonk/s400/IMAG0794.jpg

Link: http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-425-15.pdf

[Crinale]

sounds like the regular guy/place just lost a regular customer

[iceman601]

Correct. I have never heard of anyone having trouble smogging a SC'd truck. There are plenty of recent SC'd vehicles out there, Xterras, Range Rovers, Mercedes cars, even many of the mid-90s Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs were SC'd. Smog techs have direct access to CARB's exemption database--heck, all you have to google the ARB Order No. shown below on the under-hood sticker and it's easy to find the exemption. He was just lazy and didn't want to deal with it.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2Zcb3XW8W0s/TrBWTywfPUI/AAAAAAAAGDg/mxhRb1Suonk/s400/IMAG0794.jpg

Link: http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-425-15.pdf



They didn't say anything about the 7th? Or you had it nicely tucked away?

[paddlenbike]

The first guy's issue was with the supercharger itself. The CARB exemption reads "for the upgrade kit, same components as the standard kit with the addition of an extra injector, 160 degree thermostat to replace the original 180 degree thermostat, and a supercharger ECU." All they know is I have the upgrade kit.

[Crinale]

All they know is I have the upgrade kit.
:thumbup: thats how to do it!

[paddlenbike]

The visual inspection should be banned. As far as I am concerned, if it passes the sensitive California sniffer test, that should be it. As it is my Arizona 4Runner only has one catalytic converter but has to meet the same standards as a California 4Runner with two cats, and it does. If my truck did NOT have either the TRD or the URD 7th injector, then it would run lean and cause massively high NOx. With the kit, it keeps the AF ratios where they should be.

I'm also not allowed to install a PCV catch can, which simply means I would be capturing the condensed oil in a container and properly disposing of it rather than my engine burning that oil all the time. Nope, those are illegal.

Since installing the supercharger my NOx dropped by half. The take-home message is if you want to save the environment, you should install a supercharger.