Brake Caliper Woes

[CJM]

I dont get it, no matter what I do it seems that my front calipers generally last between 3-6 months. I had originally chalked it up to being the rear was bad and leaking fluid onto the shoes causing the front to work harder. I also make damn sure my rear shoes are adjusted perfect like every 3k or less.

The following usually happens :
1. Truck tends to pull whatever way opposite what the bad caliper is (obviously telling me somethings wrong).
2. Truck doesnt pull but brakes feel funny. Usually 1 or more of the pistons isnt retracting right after I inspect it.
3. The entire caliper locks up BADLY and I have to replace it asap or otherwise there go my rotors and pads

Im not quite sure why this keeps happening to me. A friend mentioned that perhaps the master is somewhat bad and not releasing all the way or I have air in the system. I very much doubt either of these symptoms but IDK for sure.

Also I have used every caliper brand imaginable. Been to autozone, pepboys, possibly napa (not sure anymore), AC Delco, Cardone, etc. Seems none of them seem to work fine or last longer than others. Lately I been taking advantage of the pepboys warranty so thats what i been running. 1 side is 6 months old and fine and one is 2 months old and bad already. Im obviously pulling to the left now (right side is the 2 mo old side). Brake lines are new, maybe 2 years old and not collapsed afaik too. Steel lines look fine, master seems fine..

I dont get it. im on rock auto right now trying to figure out whose brand I should try and Im replacing both of them at once. Raybestos is 70/side before core, or maybe cardone at 85/side before core, wagner is 90/side before core. Im thinking raybestos as the core is only 10 bucks and ill just eat 20 bucks. Or maybe I should try the local napa? I havent had good luck with the calipers from autozone or pepboys it seems.

I also think maybe I should replace the wheel cylinders for the heck of it and put on the new drums I already have. I also might add the LSPV is working fine too!

IDK anymore..this sucks. All i can say is the alignment shop noticed I had the issue Iplayed dumb. Guy explained to me that he sees it happen alot on the older toyotas with no real rhyme or reason..if that says anything.

[corax]

before you replace the master cylinder, adjust the pushrod - if the master cylinder pistons aren't coming back all the way it will hold residual pressure in the system. Brake pedal should have a slight amount of play (not related to the MC push rod), but also make sure you're brake light switch isn't holding the pedal down. There are 2 adjustments - one for the pedal->booster and one for the booter-> master cylinder.

The pushrod adjustment trick I learned was to put a dab of grease on the end of the shaft and then put the master cylinder in place. Remove the master cyl and look at how much grease is left on the end of the shaft. If there is zero clearance when assembled, the grease gets completely squeezed off the end of the shaft.

[CJM]

Ill have to take a look at that Keith and Ill report back when i can.

Im thinking my main issue is cheap pepboys calipers. Also when I replaced the rear I found that the shoes/hardware all looked BRAND new so I left it. I might replace the rear wheel cylinders also b/c right now the shoes are adjusted quite tight-moreso than my old rear was and the pedal isnt nearly as firm as it could be imho. Which also leads me to believe there could be air in the system still even tho I bled it all out.

I think first step is doing new calipers and wheel cylinders (already have for when I did the rear) and then check the master cyl pushrod a bit.

[4x4mike]

Would be getting a Toyota caliper be out of the question? Seems like you could have paid for one already with what you've spent in parts house calipers and your time.

[CJM]

300/side last I checked. Also dealer said only 3 mo warranty.

[CJM]

So Im going to buy new ones sometime in the next week or so. Still torn on whose brand to buy, raybestos usually has good parts-or maybe cardone. TBH I think cardone remans everything and just slaps whatever label they are shipping it to on.

[corax]

The Napa Eclipse brand has impressed me recently. I bought one for the 4runner 2 years ago and one for the is300 last year. They come powder coated black and appear to be a nice clean reman.

[CJM]

Wowza they are $$$ if you dont turn in a core.

I think Ill try napa. Ive tried autozone, pepeboys, whomever makes AC/Delco (got thru my shop) and who knows whose else remans-but I know for sure I never did napa.

Reman semi loaded is only $52 after core which isnt bad. What do I gotta lose really, I cant keep playing with these stupid pepboys calipers..does me no good to replace it only to fail asap.

ETA: I wonder if its the pads? Maybe the dust they create doesnt mix well with the calipers? Ive been using hawk LTS pads cause I liked them alot, stopped well for me. Maybe I should change to a different brand? Recommendations?

[rworegon]

$300/side for Toyota OEM sounds like new ones. Have your Toyota dealer add -84 to the end of the part number and get a quote on remanned ones. I suspect they are 1/3 the cost.

http://www.toyotapartsandservice.com/pub/pdf/ProductCategories/2011_REMAN_Reference_Guide.pdf

BTW, Toyota OEM remanned has 12 month warranty on parts. Don't let the dealer tell you otherwise.

Straight from Toyota (scroll down about 1/3 of the page):
http://www.toyotapartsandservice.com/brakeCalipers.do

[CJM]

Just checked and saw they are 102/side for remans.

12mo warranty vs lifetime isnt worth it imho however. IDk Ill call the parts desk again and see what they say. At least I can get a discount b/c I work for a shop.

[CJM]

Going to napa after the holiday to get the calipers. Just ordered the front brake lines from rock auto and will be replacing the wheel cylinders and anything else thats suspect including bleeding the entire system.

Im SOOO sick of this, it makes no sense at all to me why one locks up then the other, replace them piece meal and they lock up again and again.. Only thing i can think of is the lines are bad maybe b/c at first it seems ok but as everything heats up its gets worse. So fluid contamination (IDK how possible when its all new like 6 months ago!) or maybe collapsing lines. This is soo frustrating.

I checked the master corax, seems fine but I will double check it again. Its not the other adjustment at the pedal however I think.

[CJM]

Keith:

I replaced it all the other day. I think I need to adjust the booster push rod b/c the pedal is still kinda low. Im not sure why but ever since I swapped the rear its been low, before it was great despite alot of caliper replacements.

When you say to adjust the pushrod using a dab of grease, do I want zero clearance or should there be clearance between the pushrod?

Thanks.

[corax]

I usually shoot for just a little tiny bit of clearance between the booster pushrod and the master cylinder piston, but zero clearance is OK as long as the pushrod isn't pushing on anything, even a little, when at rest - which is why I shoot for just a hair of clearance. You can also use the end of a sliding vernier caliper as a depth gauge if you'd rather be exact about it

[CJM]

Thanks, thats what I needed to know. I cant figure out any other reason my pedal is low. No air in system as far as I can tell, rears are adjusted right-so its gotta be some sort of adjustment.

[CJM]

Keith, thanks for all your help!

I adjusted it today. What a pain since I had to remove the washer bottle and the purge canister. But I managed to get it adjusted and it felt better, I think I can adjust it even more, but thats a job for tomorrow.

I did want to know: The only way I could adjust the rod was to grab the rod sticking out of the booster and hold it with some needle nose vise grips. Then I could turn the little brass like nut. Or am I missing something here?

[corax]

I can't really picture it in my mind, but that sounds about right. Glad it helped a bit. Just don't booger up the round end that pushes against the aluminum MC piston.

[CJM]

Nah i didnt booger that part up. Funny how they show theres some kinda special tool (I have the yota fsm)but god only knows if you can even find such a thing lol.

I wanna say I turned it about 1/8 out, Im gonna try for a bit more. Kinda tough to judge with the grease trick when its cold as hell outside and your doing this in your driveway..

[CJM]

So just an update:
Brakes work great now. I adjusted the nut on the booster quite a bit and used the grease method you mentioned Keith. I did it just enough theres a light coating of grease on the master cyl and I believe most of it is from a bit sticking off the nub of the adjuster.

now I gotta re-adjust the rears. I think Im going to have to move the LSPV down a bit as the rears are activating a bit earlier and thus the rear stops but the fronts gotta catchup kinda leading to a slight nosedive when I brake hard.

Still much better than it was. No idea how the booster coulda gone outta adjustment like that. I musta turned that nut a good 1/8 or better too.

[corax]

:thumbup:

[CJM]

ARGH!!!

Brakes went down again despite adjusting the booster push rod. I think the masters bad, pump it and hold truck on or off the pedal sinks...

There are no leaks and I bled the system like 5x now just to be sure I got the air out. Only other idea is theres air in the master. Guess Ill try bench bleeding it first

Booster is working fine.

Im sick of this stupid truck!

[CJM]

Fixed it :)

Bled some air out of the master and more air outta the brakes. Then I took the master off and adjusted the crap outta the pushrod. I dont care if its touching now or whatever the pedal is very nice.

IDK how on earth the pushrod coulda become unadjusted since all I did was change the rear but I dont care anymore.

[CJM]

DAMN IT TO HELL!!! I wish i never bought this freaking truck!

I friggin replaced everything possible on this truck and it still freaking pulls. Pulls when braking, pulls when driving, pulls all the time. The pull isnt bad when braking but if you let your hands off the wheel it cocks to the left and you go slightly in that direction, I wonder if its the tire following the crown? But on the hwy if Im in the fast lane it pulls badly, so much so I need to cock the wheel to the right about 1/4-1/3 or so of a turn and it fights me. It even fights me slightly in the slow lane slightly. On regular roads it fights me a teeny bit.

The calipers, hoses, rotors, pads, wheel cylinders, drums, adjusters, and springs are all new from 3 weeks ago. I bled it all, no air either. I had it aligned at a reputable shop that does frontend work only and they gave me the printout, all in spec. Fearing they were bs'ing I even took it to my buddy and we threw it on an alignment rack and its all in spec, zilch no problems there.

I swapped the tires left to right (front and rear), still pulls Tomorrow Im gonna freaking play musical tires after I clean the slide pins. Maybe its the grease on the slide pins im using? Using ceramic brake pin lube ffs tho.

IDK WTF to do anymore???? Maybe my stupid 32" dueler revos are crap, frontend guy says he sees a huge problem with toyotas and this issue and its usually brake related. How can 3 week old components already be bad? maybe the trucks cursed IDK. Sooner or later Im just gonna leave it be, save up some cash and buy a damn ford if this keeps up

[CJM]

I giveup.. Still pulls, still cocks the wheel to the left turning. Played musical tires, lubed the slide pins in caliper, checked calipers no pistons frozen. IDK I guess I could have bad brand new brake lines..

I can see no one has any ideas by lack of response as well. Its ok, this things doomed.

[Seanz0rz]

are you really sure it's a bad brake component and not a bad suspension component?

[CJM]

Whats left up front sean? shocks, torsion bars? a-arms seem fine, no play there.

I mean its not like its yanking the wheel outta my hands when i hit the brakes like a locked caliper would do.

I dont even think its the tires. I had them on the truck before and it didnt pull.

Like I said, my only real conclusion is one of the new brake lines is bad or something is worn out/busted and no one can figure it out.

IDK anymore man. Im going to take it back to the alignment place I went to last time and see what they tell me. Im outta ideas.

[CJM]

Ok im outof real ideas besides the lines despite being new, might be bad. I figured I bought raybestos..its a hydraulic line..how can it be bad even if they are only 10/ea?

Anyway lets do a run down of when this problem first reared its ugly head;
1. Had both 31's and the current 32's on at one point or another, no issues.
2. When i first got the truck we dealt with this problem at the mechanic, he replaced the lines and problem went away.
3. Calipers have always locked up on me, I generally replace them every 3 mo
4. Frame is not bent afaik, torsion bars arent bad, control arm bushings are good, shocks are newer, steering is newer.
5. Alignment shop said steering box was bad, bought a rebuilt unit. Has less play than stocker but still play. HOWEVER were talking very minimal.
6. F/R brake systems are all new
7. Its not radial pull, I played musical tires and its the same
8. Wheel bearings redone about 10k ago maybe less, rechecked when i put new rotors on and I torqued them per FSM. No play..
9. brakes are adjusted right for sure
10. Springs are redone in back, new bushings 2k ago. Axle is a used one and not bent AFAIK as pulling existed before axle swap

Most important aspect of this whole ordeal: If everything is new than why does it pull when braking? Conclusion...bad line... not releasing caliper. But no real drag

I did note yesterday (IDK about this one) that while redoing the caliper slide pins if I pushed one of the pistons in the other would pop out slightly. I was just doing this with a screwdriver to make sure they were all free..

IDK anymore I just dunno. About all I can think of is to replace the lines for GP and take it to a good shop and tell them the situation.

[CJM]

Welp the shop I took it to figured it out.

Control arm bushings are bad (I had kinda thought and dismissed this at one point myself). You can clearly see where its rubbing the mech said after he cleaned all the dirt off. YOu hit the brakes and the arm actually moved around in there or under load it moved.

Bad news is the parts are cheap, but the labor is insane. I do not have the time to yank it apart myself and my buddy who has a shop let go all of the good mechanics. The shop I took it to told me they would throw in an alignment as well. They will also be checking the frame for square, any other suspension components and whatnot to be sure. The guy wants it to be perfect. Good help dont come cheap it would seem.

The job is literally 800 bucks I was planning on spending on other things but it has to be done. If I had another vehicle Id attempt it myself but this needs to be fixed asap. To think, 2 other shops looked at it and didnt notice any issues at all, this guy after only an hour or so of looking at it had a diagnosis and solution for me.

[Seanz0rz]

glad you got a diagnosis other than "brake parts". Sucks you had to throw money at it, but sometimes thats the only way.

[CJM]

Yea just the way the cookie crumbles. Personally speaking I had a sinking feeling it was the bushings, but the reality of just how difficult the job is with no press and no other car incase something goes belly up kept saying inmy head "nah cant be that..cant be!"

All I have to say is this shop is very good, but dang $$. Whenits done it better be dang near perfect as not a single thing on this truck besides the engine and trans hasnt been RnR by now.

[CJM]

So 1200 later...the new bushings make the truck drive 100x better. Infact the truck never drove this good since ive owned it. All that vibration I had been getting for years-the bushings cured about 95% of it! Hit the gas and no more movement of the frontend.. The truck however STILL wandered and pulled left. I kept thinking about it on my way back, why does it do this-there is NOTHING old now besides TRE..this makes no sense. beside the frame, engine and trans most of everything i took care of like the picky person I am.

Then it dawns on me, it doesnt always pull left-sometimes its straight but then wanders. Maybe its the tires. Nope swapped the one they claimed radial pull side to side on back..no change.

Then the AHA! moment happened as I drove around the block and up a small hill during my test drive. WHY IS IT HARDER TO TURN RIGHT THAN LEFT????? then i think back..its been like this for some time but I always chalked it up to a problem in the frontend..

Back I go and they send me out with mechanic. He claims roadcrown again. Im like buddy no Im sorry but that aint it. Shop manager drives and notices same thing I do. Checks it out on alignment rack again, even sits me inside to align it. No real change after another test drive. Mechanic says maybe the power steering box after we talk for awhile. I agree the STUPID POWER STEERING BOX I REPLACED MAYBE 2 YEARS AGO HAS TO BE BAD, THERE IS NOTHING ELSE!!!!! So new box by tomorrow afternoon and I pray its good to go.

Now Im broke..yay! but the truck will drive well. too bad I wont be able to go anywhere cause I cant buy gas! /bang head on desk over and over...

Otherwise Im going to set it on fire unless some wants it..

[4x4mike]

Slowly but surely it will be back. If not sell it before burning it.

[CJM]

I pray to go thats so Mike..

[Crinale]

so it's been a month, how's she driving?

[CJM]

Much better but still not perfect.

I believe I have a slight radial pull from the tires as I went from 31s on 15's to 265s and 16" wheels. When braking it will still slightly pull, but only a little bit and when driving it doesnt pull anymore. However its one of those "its as good as it gets" scenarios. They aligned it perfect, checked everything known to man and there is nothing left really. We did conclude the rear axle is wrapping slightly due to worn out springs and at that point I stopped spending cash-could be part of the cause of the braking issue that still exists.

Honestly I kinda just accepted it as this is how its gonna be and thats it. If I had the cash Id look into a tundra or maybe an F series to replace it. I have 250k, its old and kinda beat up bodywise.

[CJM]

I GIVE UP! The MF truck has decided once again it wants to pulls to the left under braking and wants to follow road crown and ruts in the road.. It was ok for a bit after repair but now it pulls when braking to the left, IDK why everythings new. I had an expensive and very qualified shop check everything from top to bottom and they could find nothing wrong but the steering box and control arm bushings.

Hell, yesterday I had no issues I kept stopping and it seemed fine, no brake pull. Today it pulls.

1. alignment is good
2. entire front brake system (lines, pads, rotors, calipers) and rear (besides line) is new. I even lubed the slide pins
3. control arm bushings were replaced
4. tires have been ruled out.
5. new steering box
6. Tie rods are fine, linkages fine, idler is new, pitman is pretty new, ball joints are new within like 5k, bearings are new within 10k. Everything is torqued good (i checked the other day), everything seems fine, no abnormal play.

Drive down a highly crowned road or pick up ruts and bingo it wants to follow them. Obviously somethings screwy with alignment Im thinking toe or castor.

Hit the brakes and it pulls left. I just dont understand. About all I can come up with is the pads are defective.. You can hit the brakes, it yanks left and then returns to centerif you let off.

UGH! Im GONNA SET IT ON FIRE TOMORROW!


__________________

[4x4mike]

Bummer man. It's almost like someone is playing a sick joke on you.

[CJM]

I swear its insane.

I drive to college today, pulls left all the time when braking. Even after only driving a few miles. Drive home, its barely doing it the entire time.. IDK I think the pads are junk. I have an extra set that came with loaded calipers Im gonna give a shot. Otherwise an F150 or something is starting to look nice these days.

[CJM]

Seem to have solved one problem. I swapped to an old set of pads I had used for a bit when i bought some loaded calipers. Also swapped front tires side to side.

Pull seems to not be there anymore but I need to drive it some more to be sure b/c I cleaned and lubed the slide pins. I also threw away the pad liners, every set of pads with those I had indents in and I wondered it the pads are hanging up or something.

[CJM]

Welp, Id say yea problem of pulling when braking is solved or so it seems. Pads musta been glazed over. Now new problems