long travel rear suspension with 35" tires?

[troyboy162]

Ok after finding the cheap long travel it would be a shame to stop $400 short of having a equal rear end. The FOA shocks are what I'm looking at and they of course will not be a drop in fit nor would a drop in fit lead to "long travel" The below image is the route that a few 3rd gen guys have taken, but I dont think I have room for that with 35" in the wheel well. Does anyone know of any other options? I see one pretty extreme option to cut out the upper shock mount and then make a shock mount 3 or more inches higher that also supports the coil bucket. Pairing that with lower shock mounts tucked in closer to the wheel (like lance) and lower down could squeeze some 12" travel shocks I think.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/150639_10151296221159754_1760618720_n.jpg

[troyboy162]

hmmm I might be good on the outside of the frame. That sure would make things easier. There is no way for the tire to come over this close anymore since there is a extended bump stop. This pic was flexing till the stock links binded and without coils during bump stop design.

FOA 2.0 body shocks come in these sizes:

10in. --16.3" 26.3"
12in. --18.3" 30.3"
14in. --20.3" 34.3"

unfortunately the 2.5" bodies are not as favorable with compressed lengths.


http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/IMG_0270.jpg

Lance has the right idea with lower mounts. Heres he's tucked the mount in tight to the wheel so that the lower mount is less of a rock hanger then the stock 3rd gen

http://www.chaosedition.com/photogallery/images/misc/rear_lca_2.jpg

[YotaFun]

I'll be watching this closely.
Moving that bottom mount is genius, I wish I could do that now but I think I would be hitting the frame if I did.

Are you running a wheel spacer now?
If so how much?
If not, have you considered that option to help with clearance issues?

I am not sure of your local laws, but here in PA we can't have any tire sticking out past the fender, or fender flare (depending on application).

[4x4mike]

I think it was here on Chapman's 4Runner that I saw my first outboard shocks on a 3rd gen. At first I wouldn't think there was much room for a shock but then started seeing it more.

Is the angle of the shock important? I know the links are going to move the axle in a certain path but for a better ride and shock longevity shouldn't the shock be in more of an opposing direction? Rock crawling forces the most movement and it can be assumed that although the forces maybe pretty high the speed of movement is pretty slow. In contrast paved bumpy roads, high speed fire roads and studder bumps are much faster. I guess I'm just thinking out loud and maybe I'm missing something.

These shocks are in a similar configuration as the ones above.

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc488/Yoterman87/IMG_20111111_122855.jpg

[troyboy162]

Avy ive reluctantly have 1.25" spacers now, but so did chapmin with his 32" tires so i though he needed them to clear. That still may be the case but the picture i found of my rig makes it look almost doable (not at home to check). I wish i had been more open to modifications earlier as that would have steered me toward something with more uptravel then i have now, but the lowered bump stops make the foa shocks possible maybe even up to 12" travel.

Mike your definatly on to something. Ive read alot about shock angle and how much it can effect dampening behavior . It looks like you can tune for most installs but straight up and down is preferred. In our case a little angle would hopefully help transform 10" of shock travel into 12" of wheel travel. Also a big concern with mounts is the angle of the mount in regard to all the directions of motion the shock must pivot to follow our axles while flexing. Thats why i hope to copy someone else lol... Too much to figure out.

[4x4mike]

That's exactly what I was thinking. If the mounts and stiction are taking up the beginning of a bump (smaller faster bumps) the shock isn't working as well (rebound and compression) and the mounts are taking a beating.

It would require some patching but what about a longer shock just mounted up more into the wheel well? The well is easy to access from inside the vehicle a doesn't have to take up a lot of room like some of the pickups that have all that bracing inside of the bed. Something like the popular Ford shock bucket welded onto the frame and the top of it going into the well about the size of a Rockstar can.

I've got a buddy who races Karts and has built some racecars and he has a lot of textbook style books on suspension design and theory. I've thumbed through them and while it doesn't paint a clear picture for a 4Runner it has some good baseline concepts.

[Seanz0rz]

From an interior standpoint, it might be worth losing a few cubic inches to square off the wheel wells to cover any intruding shock mount.

You would have to play with the suspension without springs, but I think if you mounted the top of the shock with the bolt in line with the vehicle, there should be enough play in whatever rubber bushing you use to soak up the movement as the axle goes up and down, especially with the correct geometry. If not, then the other way would work as well.

Another option is going after a 4th gen axle. It is wider (about 3 inches IIRC, what your spacers are now), has disk brakes, and may have a stock shock mounting location that might be worth looking at. The link mounts would have to be custom, but might be worth it for the better width, disks, etc.

[troyboy162]

I think your right sean. A few cubic inches wont be missed but could make all the difference. I made some high tech scetches of where I think I can beat it back with a hammer and fit a 12" travel shock. I think I want to head toward the front with my mount. I will be moving my axle back an inch and forward gives the shock a chance at sneaking by the side of the tire rather then the top where the tire should be closest to the frame. Attachment angles to the mounts can be either axis

9596

[Seanz0rz]

Looks good to me Troy!

Again, If I were doing it, I would really think about going to a 4th gen axle.

[troyboy162]

You know I am too ghetto for that lol. There are disk brake conversions for our axles. Last one I read used ford mustang calipers and montairo disks. looks like a bit of work though.

stole another picture for inspiration
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee381/herocopter1/IMG_1059.jpg

[troyboy162]

the google gods were on my side this afternoon. These pics say it all...35" km2's, 1" spacers and a 11" shock (looks like 2" body). There are some variables though since hes on unknown backspaced rims and a disk brake convertion. The tire is stuffing into the wheel well, so with a 35 KM2 he cant be spaced out much further then me.


Originally Posted by Broker View Post
- What wheels are you running? Pro Comp 98 series 17"
- What is the backspacing of your wheels? 4.5"
- Do you rub the frame at full lock? No, LT arms
- Do you rub the UCA at full droop? No
- Are you running wheel spacers, if so how big are they? Only in rear 1"
- 1" body lift

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy114/jbroker22/02%204runner/2401D272-6E2C-4B69-81C7-9A1485E3BB23-13598-0000110DF2FE8A97.jpg
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy114/jbroker22/02%204runner/EDD4356F-62AC-4388-8EBF-2DD3F5D4EBFD-13598-0000110E1B6669AB.jpg
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy114/jbroker22/02%204runner/6073F53C-63F7-46A8-B347-3CA0E636FE48-15172-0000133252885BB6.jpg
9798

[4x4mike]

Great find. Is it from a forum or something like that where you can contact him? You'd have to assume that's stuffed and can't go anymore otherwise there would be shock contact.

That looks like a rock friendly design as far as how the shock and lower links are mounted. I bet you could get another inch to the 12 you wanted if the mount stuck down a bit more and angled the shock like your sketches.

[troyboy162]

It is from http://toyotaoff-road.com/ I think I'm ok with the measurements since he is ballpark where I am at and I intend to go more inboard with the shock by pounding or cutting the wheel well. 1-1.5 inches inboard of his upper mount (and 1.5-2" higher), then 1.5-2 inched more outboard of his lower mount since I have no caliper to worry about. My interference would no longer be the tire but possibly the top corner of the frame under droop.

Its weird that everyone keeps using the tubes and mounting under them. I might be missing something thats obvious, but with a plate mount (like lances first mount) you can get the shock up 2 inches higher. higher in the well sounds like the goal since that bring the lower mount away from the rocks.

another ghetto sketch. the red circle is the area that cant be messed with much. The seat brackets are right on the other side of the wheel well so you can go in very far in that spot.
99

[Seanz0rz]

I am not familiar with Lance's first mount (link?) but that style of shock mount puts the steel in tension and sheer, two things steel is good at resisting. it looks like the plate mount might induce a bending moment in the plate, something that steel is not very good at managing. Tube is more of a structural product than plate, although plate can be made to be VERY structural, it is more work.

[Seanz0rz]

Lance's plate mount: http://www.chaosedition.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3&Itemid=4

I like this mount. The only thing I would add is a gusset on the front face of the plate back to the frame to keep it from rolling forward/center. Also maybe some boxing on the top of the two mounting tabs.

as for cutting into the rear seats, you don't have yours anymore right? I know that eliminates that option for other people like me, but it might be worthwhile for you.

[troyboy162]

I took my seats out temporarily a year ago lol, but I will put them back in some day. As for lances mount, a few gussets would be in order to ensure it will take the abuse. Lance used 1/4 plate to make up for lack of gussets. 1/4 main plate with 3/16 gussets...I think its doable at the cost of weight vs the tube solution, but the higher mount point is too much to pass up. besides I dont have a bender :)

[troyboy162]

stealing more pictures

With no springs I need to run 1" spacers (265/75/16 goodyear mts) to clear everything perfectly.
I will take pics of flex.
They are 10" shocks.
But we think I could run longer ones no prob.
When I blow these ill look into longer ones.
I know broker is running 11" shocks on his hoops but they are different.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/06/7y3y5yjy.jpg

[troyboy162]

Total Chaos has a kit for the tacoma that takes a interesting approach. We have more articulation so I kinda think think lower should be mounted on the other axis like out stock shock.
http://www.chaosfab.com/images/accessories/49625.jpg
http://www.chaosfab.com/images/accessories/49625/install-pic-3.jpg

[Seanz0rz]

Those look like heims, so that might not be a horrible solution to the problem. I think our problem is the articulation potentially sending the shock body into the frame.

[troyboy162]

I'm not sure it will be able to keep up with the slinky 4runners. It means lots of testing for me lol. I still just want to copy someone that I know has thought this through! If I can keep them in the same axis as the above tacoma they will be always be in the most durable position during loading. Lance put his the other way and I can see that will be the best choice for a axle flexing heavily.

Lances lower
http://www.chaosedition.com/photogallery/images/misc/rear_suspension_lower.jpg

[troyboy162]

I'm home finnaly and got this picture to show the clearence at max stuff with the other side at expected long travel droop. Its tight...There is about 2.5 inches of room. I expect there will be some rub when I go to MTR tires. The rub hoever would be at slow speeds with low preasure tires. Id guess a ghetto solution will be to cover the shock in a thick vinyl like motocross stuff. That should be fine...ghetto, but fine.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/room_zpsb3187448.jpg (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/troyboy162/media/long%20travel/room_zpsb3187448.jpg.html)

[Seanz0rz]

Could you cover the shock with some smooth sheet metal? No edges towards the tire, just a nice smooth place for it to rub against if it does?

[troyboy162]

yeah I thought about that too. Thin smooth sheet metal held in place with hose clamps. Its all coming together, but 35" tires make this right on the hair edge of doable.

[Seanz0rz]

I wonder how my 33" tires would fair with your design? This is something I want to do eventually, probably in a couple of years (if I still have the vehicle by then)

[troyboy162]

You'd have roughly another inch of clearance in all situations. I;d have to look at it hard but that might allow you to get rid of any spacers and possible suck the tires up into the wheel wells giving you more up travel.

edit : just Tested up travel the best I can right now. I think i will be able to get 12-13" of travel using the poly bump stops I already have while still having enough bump to keep the tire off the shock during flex. Its another give and take... I'll need a tall enough bump stop to keep the tire off the shock during flex, but also short enough to allow the tire to kiss the outside fenderwell and give me the full 13" travel during landing. Uh yes shes gonna get jumped lol. At least once anyhow.

[Seanz0rz]

What about full compression on both sides, like you will encounter in the desert? Does that force the tires up into the edges of the wheel well?

Your truck is going to be intact for tomorrow, right?

[troyboy162]

yeah nothing has shown up yet so I just put the rear end back together (dented my shocks a bit grr). The parts may be here tonight but I just found out the top hats are going to be here next wednesday. Oh well its been a good day of testing today anyhow.

Full compression on both sides will not tuck into the wheel wells for me so it will be bump stop limited before contact happens. My truck rides a bit stink bug anyhow so ride hight will be about center in the travel. I dont know whats ideal but that shouldnt be too horrible.

[troyboy162]

2 full days of flex testing and 2 full days of fab (im slow) and its finally on. I worked extra hard and ended up being able to remove my spacer in the rear as well. the 12" shocks are defiantly recommended. By the time you strap and bump it will be more like 11" of travel. A couple notes

-mounting high up in the wheel well is not the way to go. I was excited to mount my shocks higher then anyone else I had seen. The problem is the frame gets in the way. Or if you mount them outward a bit to clear the frame, then you are deep into the tire at stuff. My final mount point is lower then most.

-I mounted off the stock lower shock mounts with a extention. This solution is ok but certainly not attractive. the lower mount is tucked super close to the drum brake. That ended up working well.

-Too early to tell but I think the PSI in the shocks has increased my ride height. I need to load the truck with junk first before I get too excited.

-the shock is dangerously close to the frame to get good clearance on the tire. I flex tested as best I could with the springs out and all was well. However I havnt proofed all the scenarios with the springs in. As you can visualize flex with the springs in does not allow a tire to stuff as hard, so the whole axle is in a lower part of the arc. I think I'm good but I need to reasure myself with some more testing.

-oh and limit straps and bump stop pads are not done yet... :(
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140824_173426451_HDR_zpsepfbtltk.jpg

[Seanz0rz]

Looks great! I am excited to see it in action! And I might just have to copy you.

[Good Times]

lookin good Troy.

How much is that lower mount tucked in? I had similar issues with you on the lower. Even though the first rendition of my lower mounts were pretty tucked in (looked almost like yours with it being super closer to the brakes and tires) I still had to reinforce the mount from potential abuse with obstacles. Didn't think I'd hit it since it was pretty nicely tucked in but not to my surprise it did see a bit of abuse from random objects hitting it.

Can't wait to see you dial that in to perfection. Once done you'll love it!

[troyboy162]

the nut is about a quarter inch off the rim. I have a gusset in the back an made the whole thing out of 1/4 plate. I would suspect I will hit part of it, but not likely the bottom of the shock at least.

I took it out for a test today and it sure is fun. just a desert road that has a few bumps. The rear is defiantly valved stiffer then the front, but its working really well.

[Kryptoroxx]

You know I am too ghetto for that lol. There are disk brake conversions for our axles. Last one I read used ford mustang calipers and montairo disks. looks like a bit of work though.

stole another picture for inspiration


I was about to suggest that idea. The disc brakes would give you a little extra wiggle room for mounting the shock on the axle and a gusset to work off of if you welded to the axle. Plus I wouldn't feel like such a loonie for wanting to do it myself.

[troyboy162]

Kinda back to the drawing board here. With the long travel has come extreme articulation. With the limit straps set for 12" of travel, the resulting limits to articulation not only make the shock touch the frame, but the truck is too flexy. The slinky rear end makes it unstable on offcamber. I've got a couple options.

- figure some exotic angles on the limit straps that inhibit flex without sacrificing droop. This is not very likely from what I'm testing

- rig up a sway bar. This is the most likely route. I really hate to have one , but it will solve the instability at the sacrifice of a lot of articulation

[4x4mike]

There is a local place making a sway bar that guys on Pirate have been having luck with.

http://store.tk1racing.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=186

This guy is running one on his SAS'd 3rd gen. I'm not sure you have the room with all your new hardware.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/27349369-post61.html

[troyboy162]

wow the price on that one is alot better then the curry anti-rock. Right now im trying to find a stock one since I have run that in the past and it wasn't terrible on the rocks. I broke my original one unfortunately. Its easy to implement as well since the support structures are already there. I'd need to extend the links for it though.

[troyboy162]

I put a stock sway bar on and the performance is near ideal in my opinion. Its fixing the body lean and not hampering flex much. I wheeled with a stock sway for a long time so its also has a predictable, familiar feel. A unexpected issue is that the end links for the sway bar cant be lengthened. My plan to lengthen them to accommodate the 4" lift is ruined. Longer links will smash into the lower control arms at flex.

One of my problems is still plaguing the set up. in extreme conditions the shock will still end up hitting the frame. Its bad really. Its got the leverage to pretzel that shock if I were to go to the hammers or something. luckly no harm seems to have happened in my testing.

I'm going to cut the top shock mounts off and put them further outboard. Probably about another 1/4 inch outboard. It dosnt seem like much but thats another 1/4 into the tire under flex. I hope to get away with it but wheel spacers may have to go back on. I'll post up detailed pics when the bugs are worked out. Its been alot of trial and error over here haha but I think these are the first 12" shocks outside the frame with 35" meats

[4x4mike]

If you can't lengthen the end links what about the small blocks that go under the mounting bracket of the sway bar. That might level things out.

[Seanz0rz]

You can try the relocation brackets like Sonoran Steel sells. The biggest problem with the sway bar is that as you move it up, it is going to move forward. Lifted, you will never have the same geometry of stock, but it will still be better than nothing. You can also try using the endlinks from the front on the rear, they should be slightly longer.

[Kryptoroxx]

I have been enjoying watching your build but I have to ask the question of the exact purpose of moving the shocks outside the frame. Is it just so you can mount longer shocks with a better lower shock mount or is there more to it beside that. Those are pretty good reasonsbut the different mount affects handling quite a bit in all situations.

stamped and snail mailed

[troyboy162]

interesting... I hadnt seen that sway bar lift kit. That is something to keep in mind for sure. So far I like the performance of the sway bar how it is, but if I widen the track width with spacers it will be a candidate for bringing things back into spec.

Shocks on the outside are just the easiest way to make the long bodied shocks fit and work. Anything inside the frame will need a supporting cross member. When I looked there was a lot of business in that area so I'm not sure a cross member would be even doable. There is the benefit of mounting shocks straight up and down from a valving stand point but thats pretty minor in the grand scheme. The locations I see some people put there shocks on the outside of the frame would not work for me with the bigger tires. I wonder also how much they flexed out there trucks. I have no idea how you could mount a 2.5" bypass shock back there and not hit the frame or wail the tire.

The stock location ends up being a poor spot for these types of shocks since they generally have much longer compressed lengths for a given travel compared to normal gas shocks. Of course at this point I'd probably take crappy travel over all this fab work lol. I'm not sure I would trust the stock upper shock mount to much abuse anyhow. jumping a truck seems smooth in the driver seat but the shock mount is seeing much greater stress levels.

[Seanz0rz]

I'll take pics of mine. Shouldn't be too hard to fab something up on your own.

[troyboy162]

i found a picture on the internet. I could use the 1/4' plate to make it strong enough

[Kryptoroxx]

interesting... I hadnt seen that sway bar lift kit. That is something to keep in mind for sure. So far I like the performance of the sway bar how it is, but if I widen the track width with spacers it will be a candidate for bringing things back into spec.

Shocks on the outside are just the easiest way to make the long bodied shocks fit and work. Anything inside the frame will need a supporting cross member. When I looked there was a lot of business in that area so I'm not sure a cross member would be even doable. There is the benefit of mounting shocks straight up and down from a valving stand point but thats pretty minor in the grand scheme. The locations I see some people put there shocks on the outside of the frame would not work for me with the bigger tires. I wonder also how much they flexed out there trucks. I have no idea how you could mount a 2.5" bypass shock back there and not hit the frame or wail the tire.

The stock location ends up being a poor spot for these types of shocks since they generally have much longer compressed lengths for a given travel compared to normal gas shocks. Of course at this point I'd probably take crappy travel over all this fab work lol. I'm not sure I would trust the stock upper shock mount to much abuse anyhow. jumping a truck seems smooth in the driver seat but the shock mount is seeing much greater stress levels.


Gotcha....I was curious about it. Doubt my runner will ever go to 35's but who knows lol. I kinda like the idea of the shocks mounted outside since it would make replacement much better and remove the rock magnet of a lower shock mount as well.

[troyboy162]

back to the drawing board. This weekend one of my upper rear mounts failed just shy of the racetrack in death valley. From what it looks like and what I'm told it appears a weld fail is the root cause, but its also shown me the stupid amount of stress this mount is going though. My minimalist plate mount isnt going to make me feel confident anymore.

First up is the carnge pictures. This happened on a bombing run from Ubehebe Crater to the race track. I wanted to do my planed three day run in just two days so I was letting the tires and the suspension feel the pain. In another tidbit of humiliation I had just run down a jeep trying to make a speed record of his own. I carefully worked up through his dust and made myself visible. I saw him look in the mirror and then he just tried going faster...so I made a pass worthy of a baja race lol. But a fun as that was it was all for nothing when he passed me back as I inspected the damages trailside. (side note: I have no idea why people dont pull over like I used to when a faster truck comes up from behind. I actually find people will drive like idiots in every effort to not allow me to pass. Are we really racing???)

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20141121_165120699_zpsq8x4xpkr.jpg

you can see here the upper weld is pretty crappy. I knew it was substandard, but had figured the mount just needed to be strong in compression and the rebound forces would be minimal. As you can see the 1/4" plate was bent right over via the rebound.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20141122_144138222_zpsjskoc1g7.jpg

turns out the shock is fine. This is just tire marks on my clear vinyl sticker protection. Luckily I stopped in time before it was damaged. Unluckily a rouge shock smashing into your wheel well makes enough noise its hard to ignore.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20141122_144119255_zps3kp1c6kl.jpg


My next mount will be similar but will not be relying on the single brace to save the day. Unfortunatly I do not have a tube bender because I understand now thats the lightest and most fool proof design. My original thoughts on the plate mounts having desirable location benefits turned out to pointless when the shock contacted the frame under flex. I'll post up more on the new mounts this week, but its going to be more 1/4 plate.

I had planned to film the whole trip, but all I really got was Titus canyon lol.


http://youtu.be/fq_DKKuMhIY

[DHC6twinotter]

Awesome video, Troy! I loved Death Valley when I went a few years ago. It was way better than I expected it to be.

Bummer about your shock mount, but it's great that the shock was fine.

[Kryptoroxx]

The video was awesome! Too bad about the shock mount. I give you props for all the work but it's amazing that you folded up 1/4" steel like that.

I'm very new to making fab stuff but is there any way to triangulate the mount to deal with the stresses? It's hard to say what I mean but possibly extend the actual shock mount weld to the top part of the frame as a gusset and perhaps put another wall on the outside of the mount with a few horizontal braces between. It would allow for flex a little but it would reinforce as well. I probably couldn't weld it up either lol. I'm sure you have a good idea of what you need though.

I'm still amazed that you broke that mount. Definitely want to see the new design.

[troyboy162]

it was nuts and the last thing I expected to find when I heard the noise. oh well it was a cheap lesson to learn as far as truck things go. I'm just tired of re-working those mounts.

The new one will just have more braces sorta like I think you are talking about. A second brace on the back and one on the front should work well and never allow it to free float on a large fulcrum again. I believe it will be overbuilt but in a worst case scenario it should bend and not have a chance to hinge and break like this one.

[troyboy162]

Ok heres round 2 or 3 if you count v1.1 With any luck this will be good to go.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/10634086_10205420016078597_591214701163181299_o_zp s007a7f63.jpg

[Kryptoroxx]

Yep that wasn't far off what I was trying to describe. That's a BEEFY mount! You have even more bracing than I thought about. Looks great!

[4x4mike]

Great video and great job on the repair. The original does look like the vertical weld failed then the pushing and pulling from the shock broke the piece, nicely done.

Your repair looks solid and it looks like you jumped right on it. I think capping it and adding the triangulation will stiffen it up a ton and give you better results.