electric cars catching on? [Archive] - UltimateYota.com Forums

paddlenbike

02-15-2014, 09:59 PM

Today the California Auto Museum opened its doors for the first day of the "It's Electrifying" exhibit featuring electric cars. It was fun to see how much enthusiasm there was for non-piston powered automobiles. I was really excited to see the original GM EV1, the car that started the electric car revolution. I thought they had all been crushed by GM, but apparently there are still a few of them around for museums. The history of the EV1 is interesting, with a lot of people suspecting a conspiracy between GM and the oil companies to keep electric cars off the roads.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-syu7VOHeYrU/UwBN3rPrebI/AAAAAAAAMa8/wnM6huIAbZk/s800/IMG_4376.JPG

The Tesla Model S prototype was there as well. As beautiful as this car is, I think the production version looks even better.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XLoVtdxPw1o/UwBOLodz-xI/AAAAAAAAMbE/jroTYFrzkk0/s800/IMG_4373.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XrFZ4N-PQWQ/UwBOXYXGiSI/AAAAAAAAMbM/qrRFJmqInCY/s800/IMG_4372.JPG

BMW Active-E 1-series
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JJmcjzTKxO0/UwBOkip67_I/AAAAAAAAMbY/AYz3qyASwt0/s800/IMG_4383.JPG

Tesla roadster:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-izintb2BJ4U/UwBOlMkavdI/AAAAAAAAMbc/8FDhMa9QSmM/s800/IMG_4385.JPG

The Leaf and the 2002 prototype Nissan to its left:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ewDT4FZ1Bzo/UwBOzrkugmI/AAAAAAAAMbk/EkfUorLhMQ8/s800/IMG_4391.JPG
The Leaf is significant because it is the first mass produced, affordable electric car. Over 100,000 Leafs have been sold world-wide.

I also enjoyed the 80s sports cars section--a Delorean, Porsche 911 SC, Ferrari 308, Lamborghini Countach.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OBvQ0gcpHt8/UwBO_kw1egI/AAAAAAAAMbw/0c6YIeHBfPM/s800/IMG_4401.JPG

Sorry for the crappy blurry pics. My dSLR is on loan and I couldn't get a decent shot from my point and shoot to save my life.

I think the coolest thing about the event was how they had the museum arranged. It started with the transition from horses to the early motorcars (which basically looked like horse carriages with motors), then on to internal-combustion powered cars from the last century, then they talked about the transition to electric cars. It's cool to think that today may very well be a transition era from internal combustion to electric.

Seanz0rz

02-16-2014, 10:41 AM

Thanks for the post! always super interesting to read about electric cars. It is still an option for my VW, provided I could get something better than lead acid batteries.

CJM

02-16-2014, 10:56 AM

Only thing Ive seen around here were a few leafs, a tesla and quite a few prisuseseses (wtf is plural of prius???) No charging stations around me tho.

paddlenbike

02-16-2014, 07:25 PM

There are probably more charging stations around you than what you've noticed. Here's the greater Sacramento area, which isn't nearly as well supported as other metropolitan areas.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TFZ3Vig7gSA/UwF_Qr_uueI/AAAAAAAAMcI/1j7R6erPTPc/s800/chargingstations.jpg

In the past 3.5 weeks I've had the car, I have put 1,200 miles on it and I have only plugged in at home twice. 1,200 miles of driving would have been at least a couple hundred dollars in fuel in most any car.

CJM

02-16-2014, 07:48 PM

I found online that in NJ there are about 20. Must be a west coast sorta thing.

DHC6twinotter

02-16-2014, 09:24 PM

Seanz0rz

02-16-2014, 09:45 PM

Typically, if you have a smart meter anyway, night time (off peak hours) electricity is cheaper than day time.

paddlenbike

02-16-2014, 10:03 PM

Ken, has have you had any substantial changes in your home electric bill?

I actually really like the idea of having an electric car for daily driver duties, along with an SUV for longer trips. I'd buy a Tesla if I could afford one, and I'm curious to see what their new cheaper car will look like.

Clearly, I agree with you completely Dan! Most of my driving is within the range of the Leaf and for everything else, there's the 4Runner. And trust me, anyone driving a Leaf was wishing they were driving a Tesla; those cars are amazing in every way.

To answer your question, I have only charged at home twice in the past 1,200 miles. But using actual numbers from my car and my daily commute, I drove 459.3 miles from January 18 (day of purchase) through the end of the month and used 105.9 kilowatts of electricity to drive those miles. Had I charged at home, I pay 10.8 cents per kilowatt hour, so 105.9 kw x 0.108 = $11.44. (2.5 cents per mile.) A Prius costs about 3X as much to drive per mile, so it's extremely economical.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rxcoka9NSEM/UurGqbGcXVI/AAAAAAAAMY0/SDi3s5XbJqs/s800/Clipboard-1.jpg

DHC6twinotter

02-17-2014, 04:47 PM

Yeah, that's not bad at all!

I find that "CO2 Tailpipe Emission Reduction" readout kinda funny.

paddlenbike

02-17-2014, 06:25 PM

^^ I make up for it with the 4Runner. :-)

Bob98SR5

02-17-2014, 07:03 PM

paddlenbike

02-17-2014, 08:46 PM

Ken,

I was reading on the airplane that there is a website now where private home owners register and open their homes/charging plug to other electric car drivers. I don't recall how they cost share or whatever, but some people (the article was saying) really go out to accommodate other drivers to the point of having coffee with them while they charge up. Great idea, huh?

Hi Bob,
Yeah, the website/app "plugshare" that I showed above will display homeowner charging stations. It's particularly useful in places that lack good charging infrastructure or in places where a private plug not far off a freeway could allow driving an EV where without it, the trip wouldn't be possible. The Leaf supports CHAdemo quickcharge, which is 480V charging that will fill a Leaf from empty in 25 minutes. Another option is stopping at an RV park and charging off their 240V. Charging at 240V will put 23 miles of range back in the car per hour of charging. Not super fast but it can be done.

I just got my 240V outlet installed in my garage today for my Level 2 charging station. I wired it to support 50 amps to future-proof for the next generation of electric cars, which will presumeably have larger batteries and even quicker charge options.

paddlenbike

02-18-2014, 08:23 AM

I love the commercial for the Leaf, "what if everything was gas powered. What if it everything wasn't?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn__9hLJKAk

Notice the Chevy Volt in line to get fuel?

paddlenbike

02-25-2014, 10:09 AM

List of currently available 2014 Electric cars:
-Chevrolet Spark EV
-Fiat 500e
-Ford Focus Electric
-Honda Fit EV
-Mitsubish iMiEV
-Nissan Leaf
-Smart Fortwo
-Tesla Model S
-Toyota RAV4 Electric

For anyone interested in an electric vehicle, I recommend you do a little reading on the subject of "compliance cars." California requires that carmakers of a certain size ensure that at least a small portion of their volume comes from zero-emission vehicles (ZEV)--either battery electric cars or fuel-cell electric vehicles. These compliance cars are much lower in production volume as they are intended only to meet the ZEV requirements.

Of the list above, the only cars that are available outside of California and NOT compliance cars are the Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi iMiEV and the Tesla Model S. The other cars are gasoline-engined cars converted to run on batteries to meet ZEV regulations. You'll find the bodies and floorpans of the converted cars are stamped to accommodate exhaust systems and fuel tanks and the trunks are generally filled with batteries and inverters. The Leaf, iMiEV and Tesla have flat floors with the batteries located low in the chassis as they were designed to be an EV and nothing else.

The biggest problem with compliance cars is the lack of a dealer service network to work on the electric vehicles. Nissan and Tesla have technicians and special service equipment to handle troubleshooting and repairs, while the compliance cars have a serious lack of dealer support. Generally when problems arise, someone has to fly-in from out of state to handle diagnostics, which means your car sits in the shop for extended periods of time waiting for repair. Toyota RAV4 electric owners are livid with the lack of support for their vehicles. Something to think about if you're in the market for one. If experienced EV technicians are unavailable now, imagine what level of service you will get with your Spark or Fit once the manufacturer has sold enough compliance cars to eliminate their production.

The list of available EVs is growing, with BMW, Kia, Mercedes and VW expected to join the line-up later this year. I would only buy or lease one that is not a compliance-only EV.

Seanz0rz

02-25-2014, 10:16 AM

paddlenbike

02-25-2014, 10:56 AM

I saw a Rav 4 Electric the other day, first one I've seen since the early days. With the blocked out grill, it was even uglier than usual. I can't imagine they are very popular with competition from the Leaf, Volt (even though it is not an electric car, GM lies), and others.

Maybe Toyota will come out with an electric 5th gen and make it even uglier. Oh wait, I'm not sure that's possible. :)

The RAV4 uses a Tesla drivetrain, so it has a nice fat battery in it, 41.8 kW versus the Leaf's 24 kW. Toyota owns a minority share of Tesla, somehow arranged when Tesla bought Toyota's old NUMMI plant in the bayarea.

Tony Williams, a guy famous in the world of the Nissan Leaf, had this to say about his RAV4:

"I'm getting tired of constantly driving it to the dealership for 5000 mile checkups, plus the MULTITUDE of failures that I've had on the car. The ongoing and seemingly never to be fixed charge timer issue. The replacement (Tesla) motor that is now starting to make noise just like the last one. Heck, I only bought the car because of the Tesla drivetrain and big battery pack with TMS. Virtually EVERY Tesla supplied piece of hardware has been unbolted from my car so far. The heater failed. The charge port melted (I blame Blink/REMA for that one, though). The car currently has a "Check EV System" failure and has been in the shop all week, and probably next week, too.

The ride quality is not so smooth and the interior sucks for a $50k car. It's a phased out body style, and Toyota openly doesn't support EVs. No spare tire is just DUMB, too, but that seems to be the EV norm. 120 volt / 12 amp EVSE? Three miles per HOUR???? The same EVSE that Toyota uses in their 11 mile range Plug-In Prius (while Tesla supplies full 40 amp EVSE in their cars). Are you kidding me when there is onboard capabilty of a 40 amp / 277 volt charger? Yippee!! No DC quick charge option, even though Toyota is an official CHAdeMO member company.

Gas gauge that stops at 80% full??? What brain surgeon thought that made sense? A resistance heater in a $50k EV ???... even the LEAF at about 2/3 the price offers a heat pump. Poor implementation of charging station mapping (only works with internet connected smart phone with app running), plus it doesn't come close to what I can just find on PlugShare. No mention in the owner's manual about long term storage for the $36,000 retail price traction battery?"

Now, Tesla received a near perfect score from Consumer Reports for reliability and EVs are FAR simpler than an internal combustion car, but Toyota has done a terrible job at interfacing Tesla parts and their own parts. They basically slapped the RAV4 EV together and it shows.

That's part of why I recommend not buying a compliance car, the manufacturer only wants to sell enough to meet the ZEV targets and have no interest in making improvements, fixing problems, etc. Toyota is doing an absolute terrible job on their new products and sad to say, I would not even *think* about buying a post-2009ish Toyota.

paddlenbike

03-04-2014, 11:13 AM

Honda is selling more Fit EV's than anticipated and today they reported they will stop selling the California compliance car after 1,100 models have been sold. This is despite high demand and a backlog of pending orders. I wish Honda had more interest in building EVs because everything they build is really high quality.

paddlenbike

04-15-2014, 08:33 AM

Today marks 3 months with my all-electric Nissan Leaf. Earlier in the thread Dan asked how much my electric bill went up. Here are the statistics straight out of the car's telematics system:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ody0owOyAro/U01L5cM0RiI/AAAAAAAAMo0/nWVvEh9ZM7Q/s800/3months.jpg

In those 3 months I have driven 2,734 miles and consumed 639.6 kilowatts of electricity. I pay 10.4 cents per kilowatt, so 639.6 x 0.104 = $66.52 total to drive over 2,700 miles. Assuming fuel is $4/gallon, that's the equivalent of getting 164.5 MPG. There is no incentive to drive efficiently, so I don't. That number assumes all charging is done at home and no free public charging is used.

UAE and the oil companies can suck it.

Kryptoroxx

04-15-2014, 10:02 AM

That's pretty awesome! One thing that holds me back is waiting for my life to settle into a job. Military life isn't condusive to staying in one place.....or even in the states.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

DHC6twinotter

04-15-2014, 02:33 PM

Nice! $66.52 for 2700 miles isn't bad at all! If you were in a gasser, you'd be close to an oil change too, if you change every 3k.

If I could ever afford a second car, I'd have to consider an electric car. Somebody needs to make a cool looking, affordable electric car. It will be interesting to see what the new, cheaper Tesla will look like.

Does the Leaf have any kind of fluids in it, or are the brakes, power steering, etc all electric?

paddlenbike

04-15-2014, 02:58 PM

If I could ever afford a second car, I'd have to consider an electric car. Somebody needs to make a cool looking, affordable electric car. It will be interesting to see what the new, cheaper Tesla will look like.

I look forward to Gen 2 EVs. Even the EVs being released right now (BMW i3, Mercedes Benz B-series, VW E-Golf) all have the same range as the Leaf. 125-150 mile range EVs at an affordable price will hopefully be coming in the next couple of years.

Does the Leaf have any kind of fluids in it, or are the brakes, power steering, etc all electric?

The brakes have fluid, but because the car has regenerative braking, the car uses the hydraulic system as little as possible (wasted energy). Because of this, brake pads last a really long time. There is a small radiator with coolant for two purposes, one to cool the electric motor and also to cool the inverter when quickcharging. Teslas do not have coolant in the motor or inverter but they do in the battery. Power steering is electric. Heating and cooling is via heatpump. There is very little to service though and considerably less moving parts than an internal combustion car.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0CwqoTSHp70/U02pcP8UsMI/AAAAAAAAMpE/kkzuygb5qzQ/s640/Clipboard-1.jpg

I like spreading the word on these cars as they are fun to drive and I like seeing reductions in reliance on petroleum.

Kryptoroxx

04-15-2014, 03:19 PM

I think there is something to be said for the commuters going electric but I don't necessarily see a reduction in other industries like shipping until some dramatic improvements in the technology are made.

paddlenbike

05-20-2014, 10:10 AM

The new BMW i3 electrics are now shipping.
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/P90148978-highRes-750x405.jpg

It's a cool little car, but in typical BMW fashion, a little pricey. Leases are $499/mo for the pure electric and $549 for the model with the gas range extender. A Leaf costs about half that.

First customer, Ashlan Cousteau (married to Jacques Cousteau's son). She really makes EVs look good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xahNaszg8

4x4mike

05-28-2014, 10:32 AM

We've recently had the opportunity to car-sit for the past week and it's been a fun time. Paddlenbike delivered his Leaf to me at work as it's his normal transportation into work, I think he hitchhiked home. I come into work early so I can leave early. If I were to drive, the early-early schedule is nice because there isn't a ton of traffic. On the day I drove the Leaf home I was able to hold 70 in any lane of the freeway so I didn't benefit from the white All Access sticker. I did however benefit from the free charge thanks to the City of Sacramento.

I didn't get to park in any Electrical Vehicle Only parking spots with the Leaf but that wasn't a big deal, been there-done that. Notice the other two cars are gas loving vehicles?
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G-MpZbn585I/U343Us1J1jI/AAAAAAAA970/WoazpXn9Vno/s800/20140502_073503.jpg

Once home I had to play musical cars. I don't like keeping cars on the street so there was some juggling with 3 sets of keys to get the Leaf in the garage (to charge) and then there was the child seat swap, twice.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Z4A5SYUoF9g/U343kVkuaTI/AAAAAAAA99Q/eMUZV2MaThQ/s800/20140521_201212.jpg

I take Light Rail to work (~20 miles) and ride my bicycle home (~22 miles) so the Leaf was going to be driven by my wife. She works part time and has a work commute less than 25 miles round trip on surface streets. Her days off are with the kids running errands for play dates, shopping, etc that are all within town for the most part. On occasion she'll travel up the hill our towards the Bay for a day trip which would require charging (from a quick charge station at least once if not twice) in order to get back home if using a vehicle like the Leaf.

During this last week she drove it as she would her regular car and it did quite well. She and the kids liked that it was a nice new and quiet ride. My daughter is 5 and understands things pretty well and it was fun to hear her explain to my 2 year old son about electric cars and how she thought they worked. My son would just nod but was very curious. He was wondering who's car it was and why it was plugged in. I had to make sure he didn't unplug it and/or shock himself. I've only got 120v in the garage (more on that later) so it was an easy plug and play.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tRx6Z4HuSOI/U343eSjxa5I/AAAAAAAA98s/4CaudwOs5wU/s800/20140521_170935.jpg

I was able to drive it here and there picking up loads of chicken manure, jumping speed bumps, doing lawn jobs and racing over-sized dudes riding little scooters and it was fun. As has been mentioned before there is a bit of nervousness driving something with a battery gauge and no fuel. It's like a ticking time bomb yet I'm sure you get used to it. Because of this and the fact I didn't want to have to walk home I drove around with a little insurance.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rJxge34tUo4/U343gTsFiSI/AAAAAAAA980/8Bgx0K7a2iQ/s800/20140521_172040.jpg

Needless to say I didn't need the 4Runner but the torque of the Leaf is nice for such instances.

4x4mike

05-28-2014, 11:09 AM

My wife likes to live on the edge and since she's toting around my offspring I made sure the battery had a good charge on it. This was done with the 120v charger that comes with the Leaf. Ken has installed a 240v outlet in his garage and is in the process of building an EVSE charger as the charging times are much faster on 240v.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-uE0zBDQXJa4/U4YdR57Xx4I/AAAAAAAA-MI/GRIL5Nwh590/s800/20140521_145329.jpg

With the little running around we did for the first few days an overnight charge was enough for the next day. To increase the overall life of the battery there is a setting that allows the battery to only charge to 80%. I charged it to 80% the first day or so but upped it to 100% on a day she was going to be doing some running around. Turns out some of that running around was to our local library which has a free quick charge station. Turns out they let anyone charge there.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-35rr8aDA6M8/U4YWi3hI6YI/AAAAAAAA-L0/5DXWY35yiyk/s800/IMG954938.jpg

I didn't know she was going there but had mentioned there was a station there. When she saw the regular parking lot full and a Tesla pulling in she went for it. She even put the little charging door down just like Ken does. She didn't remember what the charge was before or after but it only needed a couple hours that night at home.

Fast forward to yesterday. She was taking the kids to the Zoo and adjacent amusement park and there were no chargers nearby. I charged it to 80%, for a trip very similar to what the car is used to on a regular commute day (depending on driving conditions/style). On the way home she said the radio muted and a voice came on saying the battery was low. She sent me this picture and the first thing that went through my mind was Kramer from Seinfeld and his test drive with the low fuel light on.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wDnaZMH85eo/U4YZnPrE0VI/AAAAAAAA-L8/upvZg7u05Pk/s800/IMG_0596.jpg

http://betteroffread.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Seinfeld-Dealership-Episode.jpg

She didn't seemed worried but I made sure my cell phone ringer was on as I was expecting a call. She made it home and I think it said 10 miles left. I would have been a bit more nervous than she if it were me. About the time it was this low she was passing here, just opened: https://www.smud.org/en/about-smud/news-media/news-releases/2014/2014-03-13-Fast-Charge-Station.htm
If we owned an EV we would participate in the program and would probably stop there often.

We give the car back tonight. Because she's driving it to work I wanted it to be as full as it could be for use the next day. After washing the car, by the way it's pretty big and probably has as much surface area of sheet metal as a 3rd gen 4Runner, I plugged it in. To 80% it said 13 hours. The math checked out right but man that's a long time. At dinner I was thinking it might need a little more so I upped it to 100% before going to bed.

This morning while donating blood at work I get a text saying the power is out at the house and that the car wasn't charging, the garage door wasn't opening, the kids were crying and they were running late. Crap! Had my wife's gas guzzler had car seats in it she would have hopped in it and left. Instead she got the door opened, ran back in to lock the garage door and dropped the kids off before work. She's not sure how much it charged but it was around 65% once she got to work. I'm sure there is an outlet at work but I don't want her to deal with it. There is a Tesla dealer nearby so that could be a bail out if conditions were worse.

In all it's a great car and would fill most of our needs. The needs it doesn't fill are the reason we probably wouldn't get one as it would mean having three cars which is not going to happen. Little surprises like power outages (WTF, it's only gone out for 5 minutes once since we moved in 6 or 7 years ago), last minute errands, go-go days like we have make having a vehicle with more range really nice.

To replace our AWD, turbo Subaru wagon we'd need more range without being too expensive. I believe most people who don't own or haven't looked into an EV feel the same way. The technology is here and is getting better so one day I'll need 240v in the garage.

paddlenbike

05-28-2014, 08:39 PM

Just got home from a 2,800 mile trip (not in the Leaf, haha) and had fun reading your post. It didn't surprise me to see you returned the car very clean, in typical 4x4Mike fashion, but the fact that I have not located or smelled the rotting carcass of a dead fish under the seats did surprise me. I'm glad the car worked out for you and no one had to come home on the back of a tow truck.

Your summary of the car was better than I could write. For most people, the current generation of EVs is only good as a second car, or perhaps even a third car. In our case, we only need one long distance car because if we are driving further than the range of the Leaf, we are almost always together in the same car.

240V charging is almost a must. The charge time drops from 17 hours to 3 hours, from dead, and that adds a ton of utility.

As far as range anxiety, it's something most people get over quickly. Hanna is so conservative that she gets nervous when the fuel tank in the Acura shows only a quarter tank remaining, even though the car is telling her she has 125 miles of range left. I wasn't entirely sure she would get used to the Leaf, but after we did a few long drives in it, she really has no range anxiety. Once the car tells you the battery charge is low and is only showing 18 miles on the range meter, the reality is you have close to double that. Every mile shown once you hit the low battery warning will get you closer to 2 miles. After a while, you just learn these things and realize the car is just very conservative, much like the low fuel light on my 4Runner that comes on with 5 gallons remaining.

I've got work to do tonight; I'll probably add more here later.

paddlenbike

05-29-2014, 09:21 AM

Here is an interesting article:
http://carswithcords.blogspot.com/2014/05/plug-in-drivers-not-missin-piston.html

"To all the auto-companies out there. THIS is your Kodak moment. Kodak moment, in this case, does not mean a moment to capture on film; rather, it means the time in history when an upstart technology changed the game; e.g., digital photography emerged and Kodak chose to ignore it until it was too late.

It was easy to dismiss digital cameras when they first came out. The images were not great and SLR lenses were not supported. The images were really only good for sharing via email or webpages (this was before the era of social media as we know it today). Canon & Nikon, however, saw the potential and now they dominate the photo market, while Kodak (once the titan of the industry) filed for bankruptcy in 2012.

Similarly, today it is easy to dismiss EVs. Critics speak of range anxiety and high cost and say EVs don't have the range or refueling speed of conventional cars, but they are not looking at their potential. They are not anticipating that battery technology will continue to improve, driven by the demand for ever lighter, longer lived tablets and smartphones.

And the critics within the auto industry are certainly are not looking at the driver satisfaction and loyalty ratings. Plug-in vehicles far surpass their gas-powered counterparts in these areas. Based on this alone, a car company, any car company, that wants to make cars that their owners love, should be making plug-in vehicles.

Once a driver tries electric, 97% of them don't ever want to go back to gas. Even the best stagecoach company no longer exists. If you work at an auto company that is not making at least some plug-in cars today, they are not likely to be in business 10 years from now. The new Kodak moment is about being relevant to the future rather than dwelling on the past."

4x4mike

05-29-2014, 09:29 AM

Marin commented this morning how 'weird' her normal car felt. In the short time she drove the Leaf she got used to it real quick which says a lot in more than one department. Both of our vehicles have manual transmissions so the auto in the Leaf was something we hadn't experienced in awhile. That aside I think an EV would be an easy transition for many drivers out there.

04 Rocko Taco

05-29-2014, 06:33 PM

Great Article.

I for one, am not on the EV bandwagon just yet, but anyone who refuses to see the potential and the coming technology gains there is simply hoping that by ignoring the issue, it will go away.

Kryptoroxx

05-29-2014, 07:27 PM

I would love to live within the radius that would allow me to look at one but I don't know of an ev that would be useful to me. I mean currently I couldnt make Palm Springs with a leaf without stopping and recharging. Which by the way is where the closest mall, yardhouse, oliven garden, target, outback, and pretty much anything else including radio shack. Even if somehow I did make it there I would have to charge somewhere and I don't know that palm Springs has a charge station. Forget about making riverside, Temecula, or any other place that would have one. Im also not sure about 140+ Temps for the batteries......probably closer to 180 during operation that could easily be achieved out here.

stamped and snail mailed

04 Rocko Taco

05-29-2014, 07:41 PM

Kryptoroxx

05-29-2014, 08:06 PM

The tech will get better but my eye is on hydrogen cells too. Its a better stepping stone to what we have currently invested for infrastructure and you can convert gasoline engines quite readily as well. This is all my opinion though. Electricity is great but we dont have awesome efficient ways to create that right now either. Coal is kinda dirty and natural gas is still a fossil fuel so ev is great but it is also an "end item" meaning that it tranfers dependency from one type of fossil fuel to another. Nuclear fission is fairly safe however when/if there is an incident it can be quote devastating. With that being said I don't believe that it is as bad as it is made out to be. Nobody has really reported the radiation levels from the town near chernobyl and I can attest to Hiroshima and Nagasaki as being safe personally. I spent a lot of time there but I am still waiting on my third arm.

I still think eventually electric will be efficient enough to take over but I am not certain there won't be a bridging technology either. Electrolysis bridged with solar power might be a very interesting combination. Kinda off topic I know but I thought it might provoke some thoughts/ideas.

stamped and snail mailed

Robinhood4x4

05-29-2014, 08:57 PM

Nice writeup Mike. Glad to see you got all the dents out of it too...Bondo is amazing stuff.

paddlenbike

05-30-2014, 08:20 AM

In looking at websites like plugshare that show where charging stations are located, it is clear that the two coasts have the best infrastructure, while the mid-west has very little. Where you live and how far you drive for 90% of your driving is key to whether an EV will work in your household.

Steve--I keep expecting to find something askew--he didn't even sieze the opportunity to replace my music stations with country music. I'm not sure what has gotten into him.

4x4mike

05-30-2014, 09:16 AM

I kept it to a minimum although I'm still waiting for you to find anything 'askew' at your house. In all honesty after I jumped it 3 or 4 times I didn't drive it much.

Steve I was able to keep the dents to a minimum by running an LED stobe on the dash. But yes, Bondo does work wonders.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nf7IAoVDH-Q/U343bnvU5yI/AAAAAAAA98c/GcNpKKE3JjM/s800/20140521_154811.jpg

http://www.autobeyours.com/gifs/11%20LEAF/12177562_1X.jpg

The Leaf does draw some attention though, especially when you show up to the local race track with it.

Robinhood4x4

05-30-2014, 12:28 PM

LOL. Good one...

4x4mike

05-30-2014, 12:46 PM

The strobe picture is mine. The crashed one not. We're experiencing a drought and I think it's only rained once since Ken bought his Leaf.

paddlenbike

07-18-2014, 10:54 PM

I just completed building a 240V charging station for our Nissan Leaf, based on open source code and kits available online. I started by adding a dedicated 240V outlet in the garage. I got lucky in that my electric service panel is on the outside wall of the garage, so the wiring run was very short, only 3 feet. This won't be my last electric car, so I future-proofed through use of a NEMA 14-50 50 amp outlet with 6/3 wiring.

The charging circuit on these cars is very simple.
http://electronicdesign.com/site-files/electronicdesign.com/files/archive/electronicdesign.com/content/14978/60470_fig_01.jpg

There are two poles that provide 120V each to total 240V, a ground pole, and a control pilot where the charging station (called an EVSE, Electric Vehicle Service Equipment) tells the car what kind of amperage it can provide and the car's onboard battery charger responds by telling it how much it can accept. A Leaf can take 6.6kW, which is 240V at 27.5 amps. The EVSE is basically a box with fuses and a logic circuit that makes that control pilot information exchange, then closes relays to provide the charging power. Charging stations used to be $1,000 but people much smarter than me open-sourced the code and priced these DIY kits at $250, which has effectively brought the retail units down to around $600 in price.

Here are the internals of my completed build:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2C-TyzP-qSs/U8VSsfwWSkI/AAAAAAAANBY/ecyXZ-_0hVg/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

240V in on the left, through some fuses and the latching relays which are controlled by the microprocessor, then out to the car on the right.

And here's the finished product.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uvUplgL6DK4/U8QMUboadFI/AAAAAAAANBE/Rnogbmawkfo/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

The display is just for added bling, but it does let me adjust the charge rate, do diagnostics and set charge timers so the car can be plugged in but not start charging until the middle of the night to take advantage of off-peak power rates. (The Leaf has these options built into the car too.) The screen changes color based on status--green is EV not connected, blue is charging and red is fault.

My wife's car and the 4Runner get the garage, so the Leaf is parked outside. Most EVSEs are indoor rated, so I needed to find a way to get the charge cable outside, and the routine of carefully passing it under the garage door and not smashing it got old quick. I ended up drilling a 1-1/2" hole through the stucco and interior sheetrock and used two electrical LB fittings (one inside, one out), with conduit in-between, to get the cable outside. I then mounted a dummy charge receptacle on the side of the house, which also makes a nice place to hang the cord.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OwdqMciFFgU/U8nzauN5lTI/AAAAAAAANB8/p4tEujsUe1s/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

Now the Leaf is truly easier to refuel than a gas car. Come home, plug in when needed, no trips to the gas station.

Kryptoroxx

07-19-2014, 05:41 AM

That's legit man! I hope they aren't doing proprietary plugs or any nonsense like that. My wife and I are watching the plug in market. Won't be anytime soon but I like the idea for a commuter car.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Bob98SR5

07-19-2014, 09:43 AM

ken,

amazing work as always. you schoooo schmaaart!

Jaydee914

07-19-2014, 10:12 AM

Great thread guys. I can definitely see an EV in my future, especially as the 4Runner gets more built up. My commute is just over 20 miles round trip with no highways, and my office offers free charging stations, so I'm a good candidate for electric. Also, my wife has a car we could take on longer trips so range really isn't too much of an issue.
The Tesla III has just been announced, which is a very attractive option, but a 2016 delivery for around $35k sounds a bit too optimistic.

paddlenbike

07-19-2014, 10:54 AM

ken,

amazing work as always. you schoooo schmaaart!

Nope, you can learn it all on youtube! :)

Great thread guys. I can definitely see an EV in my future, especially as the 4Runner gets more built up. My commute is just over 20 miles round trip with no highways, and my office offers free charging stations, so I'm a good candidate for electric. Also, my wife has a car we could take on longer trips so range really isn't too much of an issue.
The Tesla III has just been announced, which is a very attractive option, but a 2016 delivery for around $35k sounds a bit too optimistic.

You are a perfect candidate. I commute 36 miles round trip daily and also have free charging at work. These cars seem too good to be true; the car is free after gas savings and that doesn't include any of the other perks like free charging, carpool lane access and the fact that I'm not adding miles to the cars we own.
We leased this car until 2017 in the hopes that the $35k Tesla with 200 miles of range comes to fruition. It seems too good to be true, but so is the Leaf. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Seanz0rz

07-19-2014, 12:30 PM

I'd love one. I commute about 50 miles round trip with no charging at work, so I would need something with 75 mile range.

Jaydee914

07-19-2014, 01:21 PM

Hmmm... Gotta talk to the wife about this. "But baby, it's pretty much FREE!"

paddlenbike

07-19-2014, 11:23 PM

Sean, 50 miles would be no problem, and I actually do that quite regularly when I go places after work. 75 miles would be outside of my comfort range for daily driving. (The Leaf is rated for 86 miles of range.) Next year the Leaf will get a significant bump in range that will be worth waiting for.

Oh, apparently Leafs are trail rated. I just read about a guy that drove 127 miles on a charge to the top of Slate Peak in Washington.
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/hartspass.jpg

I don't see any charging stations up there, haha.
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/endofroad.jpg

And no, don't expect to get that kind of range unless you're hypermiling or something.

paddlenbike

07-30-2014, 11:26 AM

UC Davis released a new tool to see how much you would save by driving an EV. You give it your home and work address and select some cars for comparison. Here is my wife's commute comparing the 4Runner, our TSX, a Prius (just for comparison) and the Leaf. The website has an option box for "work charging," which assumes half of the energy is from your house and half from work, which is precisely the case with my wife's commute.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zu8dQt0aB6A/U9k1YQv2qsI/AAAAAAAANNg/PtlfCxHCu9M/s800/Clipboard-1.jpg

The site knows, for example, that the TSX requires premium fuel and you can adjust both the fuel economy of the vehicle, the price of the fuel for each grade and your home electricity rates. Surprising that even our 31 mpg TSX costs 7.5X as much to drive as the Leaf.

No car will replace the 4Runner. However, like me, you might find your fuel savings pays for the lease on the car so you can turn the 4Runner into a dedicated exploration vehicle. :-)

Give it a try. http://gis.its.ucdavis.edu/evexplorer/

garrett

07-31-2014, 06:54 AM

cool tool! thanks for sharing

wish the numbers would work out for me... i would need the lease to be ~100/mo to just break even. I've been getting ~20mpg on my 38 mile round trip commute. A $200/mo lease + down payment + full coverage insurance makes it too much. Plus I have no charging option at my work place, so I would be depending on just my home charger at .12/kwh or public paid charging.

With the overall cost of my 4Runner (gas, maintenance, liability only insurance) being so low, just can't justify a new car right now. Electric/hybrid electric is definitely appealing for when the time comes.

paddlenbike

07-31-2014, 08:09 AM

The longer you wait, the better they will get. Price will come down too.

04 Rocko Taco

07-31-2014, 05:24 PM

Every time I see this thread bumped, I cant help but think of the new Tesla Model 3, and why it could be the most important electric car ever.

http://gizmodo.com/why-teslas-model-3-could-be-the-most-important-electric-1605923541

Which of course leads me to think of The Oatmeal's review of his Tesla S. (you should read both parts, and his piece about Tesla for the full enjoyment)

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s

troyboy162

07-31-2014, 09:36 PM

Elio will probably fill the gap for most people better then anything electric if looking purely at the numbers. Although if you thought a prius was unattractive then this is hideous. Personally I think it looks ok given it makes good on what it offers ($6800, drivable power, A/C, and 80mpg)
http://www.industryweek.com/site-files/industryweek.com/files/imagecache/large_img/uploads/2014/01/elio-motors.jpg

04 Rocko Taco

07-31-2014, 10:53 PM

troyboy162

07-31-2014, 11:25 PM

There's one guy at my work too. I just learned its FWD. I had figured at that price and efficiency, they would have just driven the rear with a belt or something. It might make a pretty good snow car with studded tires.

YotaFun

08-02-2014, 07:52 AM

Neat Tool.
I tired it out but I just don't think currently a leaf would work out for me do to range and no charge station at work, or in general anywhere on the east coast I feel lol.

I am curious though, there are at least 5 Tesla Model S rolling around Delaware, 2 of which do the same commute as I do, I am curious what the range is...

paddlenbike

08-04-2014, 07:52 AM

The Teslas have a 208 or 265 mile range, depending on whether you get the 60kw or 85kw battery. The Leaf won't work for you at all, like you said, unless there was charging at work. It may not be worth your trouble, but a lot of companies will put them in at employee's request, mostly because there is good PR associated with it. Also, have you checked the website plugshare.com to see if there is a charging station nearby?

The UCD website also shows that a car has to get 4-5X the gas mileage of the 4Runner (which would mean damn near 100 miles per gallon) before it would make financial sense, when you factor in the car payment and increased cost of insurance. The only reason the Leaf works is because it costs 5X less to drive than even a Prius.

I wouldn't advise anyone to buy one right now. Next year you'll get a 150 mile Leaf for the same cost as what I'm paying. That's why I leased, I want version 2.0.

By the way, on Saturday I took the Leaf for it's first visit to the gas station. To get propane, haha.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rYVw9jC1PS8/U9-cX8AODaI/AAAAAAAANOA/dAdLG5zQhbs/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg

paddlenbike

10-08-2014, 09:51 AM

Apparently these things are catching on. There are 668 parking spaces in the parking garage I use and over 160 electric vehicles are now using that garage. That's almost 25% of the cars in our garage that are electric. Consistent with the "all good things must end," the free parking for EVs just went away due to the sheer number of them.

My wife commutes 60 miles a day and a new charging station was recently added across the street from where she works. There are eight chargers in front of the Target store, but there's a little problem--Prius owners somehow think their cars are electric:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ysliIq5Cvyc/VDVhJFSo1HI/AAAAAAAAOhQ/sh7s3jECiM0/s600/Target%2520Electric%2520Charging%2520%2526%2520Hyb rids.JPG

Now what on earth do you think these Prius owners do with the plug that is dangling in front of their car? Do they think those huge pedestal-mounted things are parking lot soda dispensers? Air for their tires? Lucky for my wife, there are four more chargers in a remote section of the lot where lazy people don't go, and another two chargers on the other remote side of the parking lot.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-APFUvxGfOIU/U-mewLOFB6I/AAAAAAAANRo/Q9FBcC1n1EQ/s640/20140119_155531.jpg

There are enough Prius owners that think their cars are electric and ACTUAL electric cars running around that it is becoming difficult to rely on public charging. New signs should be added that say "Prius owners: your car is not electric." Tesla owners currently have it good, with under-utilized 7+ stall supercharger stations popping up all over the place. Eventually, more of those will be needed too.
http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/tesla-supercharger-patent.jpg

It's exciting to see this many EVs on the road, even though many of the perks like free parking, free charging and lots of charger availability are slowly going away. I was sitting in traffic the other day with a Harley on one side of me and a loud F350 diesel on the other and I could barely hear myself think--which made me wonder what our city streets will be like someday when there is no vehicle noise and uncatalyzed Harley and diesel exhaust next to us. I'm no tree hugger, that that idea sounds nice.

DHC6twinotter

10-08-2014, 10:41 AM

paddlenbike

10-08-2014, 11:03 AM

There are hardly any EVs on the road around here. I think I've seen one Leaf here in Fayetteville. I did see a Tesla Model S up on Raleigh, and I'm sure there are more EVs up there, but I only make the trek up that way about once a month.

The Tesla Model lll could be game changer, and I would definitely consider one for a DD.

The hottest selling states are those that offer tax rebates. California offers a $2,500 rebate to be used twice in your lifetime and Georgia offers a $5,000 state rebate, plus of course the $7,500 federal rebate. Atlanta, Georgia usually takes first place for number of EVs sold due to the huge incentives. I wouldn't drive one without the rebates, because it wouldn't make financial sense at this time.

I would love a $35k 200 mile Tesla Model III, but I don't think it will happen. Many are guessing it will be closer to $40k and missing a few very desireable options, and the supercharger access (free charging for life) will cost an additional $2,000 just like Tesla does for the Tesla Model S with the 'smaller' 60kw battery. I suspect I will end up with a 150-mile Leaf 2.0 for <$35k. That extra 50 miles of range (assuming the Leaf tops-out at 150 miles--maybe it won't), isn't worth much to me based on my driving patterns.

Chevrolet is promising a 200-mile Sonic EV with price set to undercut a $35,000 Model III. If that happens, Nissan will have to offer a 200 mile Leaf for that price or charge less money. Keep in mind those numbers are before $7,500-$12,500 in rebates.

paddlenbike

10-09-2014, 09:16 PM

http://www.titogoldstein.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/tesla-d-876-crop.jpg

I just finished watching Elon's unveiling of the new Tesla Model S P85D. The "D" stands for dual motor all wheel drive. The specs are awesome--691 horsepower, 687 ft lbs of torque, all wheel drive with variable vectoring, 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds and get this, 10 miles more range than the weaksauce 417 hp single motor model. Amazing.

Oh, it also self-parks, will come pick you up at scheduled times (based on the car's calendar) and is semi-autonomous driving. Fricken amazing.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--e2_JXoUJ--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/gkwpqvgcuf05wcpurqvs.jpg

DHC6twinotter

10-10-2014, 08:51 AM

That's pretty awesome!

I wonder how that autonomous driving things works. I'd like to have a car that I can drive to the airport, then let the car drive itself home.

garrett

10-10-2014, 09:31 AM

in case you havent seen it yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7quu551ehc0

paddlenbike

11-03-2014, 08:29 AM

I am pretty sure I want my next car to have an "insane" power button.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HPuG4RYbFXc/VFepVfiSxhI/AAAAAAAAZug/OGGehQEKdhE/s640/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-promo.jpg

"In the options selection, you'll be able to choose [between] three settings: Normal. Sport. And Insane." Elon Musk glanced around and grinned.

"Yeah, it will actually say 'In-sane."

The McLaren F1's time of 3.2 seconds to 60 mph was the technological redline of what a mad genius Grand Prix designer could conjure from a road car. I tested one back in the day, and although it was at a closed airstrip encircled by acres of table-flat run-off room, it was among the most shattering few seconds of my life. One moment everything was still; the next, the cabin had exploded in a maniacal machine racket. The tach needle swept clockwise, the clutch pedal fought my left foot's stabs, the shifter pinballed through its detents, the V-12 engine charged through its revs again, my right foot feared staying planted but did anyway, everything shook, and I just hung the hell on as the world melted into a smear. Exhale. Launch one of Musk's Falcon 9 rockets horizontally, and you'll get the idea.

But scrambling to the same 60 mph time in the P85D bears no resemblance to that at all. With one transmission gear and no head-bobbing shifts, it's instead a rail-gun rush down a quarter-mile of asphalt bowling lane. Nothing in the drivetrain reciprocates; every part spins. There's no exhaust smell; the fuel is invisible. The torque impacts your body with the violence of facing the wrong way on the train tracks when the whistle blows. Within the first degree of its first revolution, 100 percent of the motors' combined 687 lb-ft slams the sense out of you. A rising-pitch ghost siren augers into your ears as you're not so much accelerating as pneumatically suctioned into the future. You were there. Now you're here.

Consequently, the easiest way to flatten your retinas at a dragstrip isn't by just stomping on the right pedal. Instead, you draw your foot back and kick the living hell out of it. (I'm serious.) Your foot's flying start at the pedal means the potentiometer opens the battery's electron floodgate that much sooner, and without the teeniest tire chirp, the P85D accelerates at the highest rate the road's mu (its coefficient of friction) allows. It's surreally efficient. And it's so fast off the line that the slower-sampling rate of our two high-frequency GPS data loggers was actually missing some of the action; within the first 1/20th of a sec (not even the "O" in "One Mississippi") the car was already going 0.7 mph. To 30 mph the P85D would be four feet ahead of the fastest-accelerating sedan we've tested, the Audi RS 7, a gap that holds to 60 when the Tesla punches the clock at 3.1 seconds, a tenth quicker than the Audi (as well as the McLaren F1's accepted time -- all of these after subtracting the customary 1-foot rollout). Both cars arrive at the quarter in 11.6 seconds, with the Audi starting to show its higher-speed chops. (The P85D tops out at 155, the RS 7, 174 mph.) Great for the Autobahn, irrelevant in America.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1411_2015_tesla_model_s_p85d_first_test/#ixzz3I1U1bo4M

Kryptoroxx

11-03-2014, 02:00 PM

Ok autonomous driving is not cool lol. They will develop it in the military and I would prefer to retire thank you very much.

On the other hand it would be nicer on road trips than dd

paddlenbike

12-03-2014, 03:08 PM

Turned over my first 10,000 gas-free miles this morning.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BcYw8TYOdSo/VH-LOBy8AiI/AAAAAAAAwpo/lU2RH_Tsb4g/s800/20141202_195247.png

According to the onboard telematics, I have burned 2,212.2 kilowatts (kW) of electricity worth a total of $238.91. I still can't believe I can drive 10,000 miles on just over $200.

Other nerdy stats:
- I travel an average of 4.2 miles per kW of energy consumed
- I average 173 trips per month (number of times I hit the 'start' button)
- I have apparently spent 295.4 hours behind the wheel of this car
- On my typical commute, the motor burns 276 watt-hours per mile, I regenerate 64 watt hours by braking (per mile) and the vehicle accessories consume 9 watt hours per mile.
- I have spent zero hours at the gas station, changing the oil or doing any maintenance whatsoever.
- I have reduced tailpipe emissions by 6,061 lbs. Basically, each of you owes me a beer.

I love this car for a lot of reasons. It's not 4Runner kind of love since this thing is not capable of taking me to my favorite back-country places, but for pavement travel it's hard to beat. I will go so far as to say I hope to never have to buy another gas car again in my life.

fenrisx

12-03-2014, 04:31 PM

Impressive. A very rough estimate here... I do about 900 miles for $200. What a difference.

paddlenbike

12-03-2014, 09:07 PM

Impressive. A very rough estimate here... I do about 900 miles for $200. What a difference.

But it sure doesn't put an ear-to-ear grin on my face like offroading in the 4Runner.

Seanz0rz

12-03-2014, 09:22 PM

I am seriously looking at getting one when its time to get a new commuter. 50 miles a day.

paddlenbike

12-04-2014, 08:16 AM

I am seriously looking at getting one when its time to get a new commuter. 50 miles a day.

For now I recommend leasing until we see how the batteries hold up long term. The early Leafs had a cell chemistry that degraded prematurely in hot climates. Cell chemistry was revised for my model year (2013) to be more heat tolerant and it was revised again in 2015, so I wouldn't buy until they figure out what works best. From what I can tell, I have between 1 and 2 percent degradation in a year and 10,000 miles. That doesn't mean much now but 8 years from now? Particularly since today's EVs are all stuck with <100 miles of range.

By comparison, a direct injected gasoline car sees triple that amount of degradation from fuel deposits on the valves leading to reduced performance, reduced mileage and thus reduced range.

Seanz0rz

12-04-2014, 08:47 AM

I would be leasing if I did. Since it's purely a commuter, I should have no problem hitting a mileage target.

paddlenbike

12-04-2014, 10:43 AM

The lower model Leafs (without NAV) seem to be leasing for around $220 per month. If you take the $2,500 state rebate and break that down monthly over the 36 months of a lease, that's $70/mo off, or a total effective lease cost of $150/mo. I think that would offset most people's gas charges. (Driving a brand new car for $150/mo is pretty awesome.)

Most 3 year lessees can't make it 45k on the OEM tires (the instant torque shreds the tires pretty quick) and the car has to be returned with legal tread, so a set of tires is generally the only thing you have to pay for. There is no maintenance other than a free once a year battery check.

Got this last week on the dashcam...smoked a newer 2WD V8 Silverado 3 times in a row. The only way you can tell how hard he is working is to listen to the audio. Poor V8 got smoked by a stupid organic vegetarian rechargeable car that gets 129 MPGe.
http://youtu.be/2RD0RQb8LQU

The only sound you can hear from the Leaf is the turn signal indicator, haha.

paddlenbike

12-11-2014, 03:21 PM

I thought this was a clever way to advertise how cheap it is to drive electric. This shows the electricity consumption of your household appliances over one year and how far you could drive an EV on that same amount of electricity.

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/500einfographic16-713x800.jpg

Good Times

12-14-2014, 02:11 PM

great advertising. the visuals are great!

you still won't see me in one of those. I don't think I would be able to fit in one comfortably!

paddlenbike

12-14-2014, 08:05 PM

you still won't see me in one of those. I don't think I would be able to fit in one comfortably!

Considering most of them only have an hour and a half of range, comfort isn't an issue, haha.

Good Times

12-14-2014, 08:45 PM

paddlenbike

12-14-2014, 09:30 PM

really only 1.5hr range!? that definitely won't get me places here in LA! funny thing is that I see a ton of these 500e's on the road. now that I know it's only a 1.5hr range I'm really shocked I see em as much as I do!

I should have qualified that statement by saying an hour and a half at freeway speeds. During that storm last year that trapped a bunch of cars on the freeway overnight back east, the electric cars were able to go all night with the heat running while the gas cars were either running out of fuel or they were sitting in them freezing to death. EVs are extremely efficient in low to mid speed driving or especially in stop and go traffic due to regeneration on braking. They go through the juice at highway speeds though...I think the electric motor in mine is turning 10,000 RPMs at 75 mph.

paddlenbike

12-15-2014, 10:08 AM

This is awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1tJMzstL_Q

(vid is 27 seconds)

Kryptoroxx

12-15-2014, 10:43 AM

This made my morning!

paddlenbike

01-14-2015, 09:15 AM

On Monday GM announced a 200-mile electric car named the Bolt will hit production in 2017.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--55apEai7--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/awwvcvhl8icuo8vt7acw.jpg

Nissan responded by saying the LEAF 2.0 will be out a year sooner, which will "have that amount or more range." My lease is up late 2016, which means gen2 EVs should be in full production by then.

Is this LEAF 2.0? I'd rock it.
http://images.caricos.com/n/nissan/2014_nissan_lannia_concept/images/1024x768/2014_nissan_lannia_concept_14_1024x768.jpg

Kryptoroxx

01-14-2015, 07:22 PM

I could do the leaf...doesn't look bad at all plus that 200 MI range would make an event usable for me out here.

However that gm contraption wouldn't work. I would feel like the ant under the magnifying glass during the summer lol.

DHC6twinotter

01-14-2015, 09:04 PM

Kryptoroxx

01-15-2015, 07:06 AM

paddlenbike

01-15-2015, 07:13 AM

I like the electric Focus and Golf, but both only have a range of 75 or so miles. If I weren't living on an island, I would probably consider an electric car for a DD.

Now that I'm stuck on an island and live a mile from work, I've burned 1/2 tank of fuel in the last 2 weeks. I figured an electric car isn't worth it for me.

I'm not sure about the Gulf Islands but the islands further north in Canada are littered with 4Runners. Many of the roads are unimproved and the only way to get building supplies on the island is to drive your trusty 4Runner onto a ferry and go to the nearest island with Home Depot, load it to the gills and come home. For that type of living, I think only a 4WD SUV would do.

garrett

02-05-2015, 02:17 PM

well now i'm convinced... LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU3K-hqjD1A

paddlenbike

02-18-2015, 09:55 AM

I love TopGear and was excited to see Clarkson review one of my favorite cars, the BMW M3 (happens to be one of Clarkson's favorites too), which he put up against the new hybrid BMW i8. Clarkson is famous for bashing hybrids, but I enjoyed hearing his commentary on how the M3 is yesterday and the i8 is tomorrow. He gave it a great review, although the i8 isn't a perfect car.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h9uzy_bmw_auto

paddlenbike

04-15-2015, 03:22 PM

Over the weekend I tested the new VW e-Golf. Overall, I like it. It's specs are nearly identical to that of the LEAF, so don't expect any more range or amazing features that Nissan just couldn't think of. But it was more fun to drive.

What I liked about the e-Golf:
- MUCH better looking than the Leaf on the outside. It has some stupid aero wheels but that can be fixed.
- Interior is less gimmicky. It's a converted gas car but I prefer the analog gauges versus the Leaf's spaceship LCD displays. The tach is replaced with a motor power/regen dial and the fuel gauge shows battery level with more detailed range and batt info available on the center screen.
- Bar-none the best thing about the e-Golf is the handling...it feels more GTI-like than Nissan Versa-like. I like the firm ride too.
- Has 3 regen settings to the Leaf's 2 settings and the third setting offers more regen braking than the Leaf. 1 pedal driving is awesome.
- Has power seat recline (but not fore/aft adjustment). I like the infinite adjustment.
- LED DRLs
- nicer exterior color options.

What I didn't like compared to the Leaf:
- charge port is located at the rear where the gas filler would be. Very inconvenient when public charging compared to the Leaf's front compartment.
- The Germans decided to use their own fast-charging connector, so there are very few SAE-combo quick chargers in the U.S. versus the Leaf's CHaDEMO connector with stations in the thousands.
- touch screen is smaller than the Leaf and harder to see
- aero wheels are terrible

I am waiting for a higher range EV, but the e-Golf is a nice alternative to the Leaf. If I had to choose one today I am hard-pressed to say which one I would end up with. The lack of good quick-charging support with the VW is a bummer but that's not something I really use. Given the VW's better handling, better looks and nicer interior, I just might end up with the VW. But only in a lease situation, because quite frankly I don't trust VW's reliability, especially for their first EV offering.

http://www.plugincars.com/sites/default/files/volkswagen-egolf-windmills-620_0.jpg

http://motoring2.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2015-volkswagen-egolf-5.jpg

When my lease ends in a year and a half, I hope VW gives us a bigger battery, more powerful motor, a sunroof as an option. I'd pay extra for a GTI-like wheel package. Fingers crossed.

Robinhood4x4

04-15-2015, 07:43 PM

- The Germans decided to use their own fast-charging connector, so there are very few SAE-combo quick chargers in the U.S. versus the Leaf's CHaDEMO connector with stations in the thousands.

Really? That's lame. I wonder how hard it would be to make an adapter?

Bob98SR5

04-15-2015, 07:59 PM

ken,

yup, the handling sold me and why i didn't by the Prius.

paddlenbike

04-15-2015, 08:44 PM

Really? That's lame. I wonder how hard it would be to make an adapter?

There are actually three quick charge standards--CHaDEMO, Tesla Supercharger and now SAE combo. Tesla sells an adapter for $450 (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/chademo-adapter) that will allow Tesla cars to charge on CHaDEMO, which is the quick charge standard used on all EVs except the e-Golf and BMW i3. The BMW i3 and the e-Golf will use the SAE combo type. It does have an advantage, the 120/240 volt charging and the quick charging can all be done on the same port, whereas the CHaDEMO has one port for 120/240V and a second port for quick charging, which takes up space. On a gas conversion car like an e-Golf, they can fit one port in the fuel door area but not two. But it will take a long time for that standard to catch on, if it does, and it just creates another obstacle to EV adoption. Very much a VHS/beta situation.

Yup, the handling sold me and why i didn't by the Prius.

The Golf is a nice car to drive, the Prius is an appliance. The Atkinson cycle engine, CVT transmission and uninspiring suspension do nothing to help. I had to laugh at today's article, Toyota announcing (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/toyota-plots-a-comeback-for-prius-after-ceding-stardom-to-tesla) they are going after Tesla (who stole the green car spotlight from the Prius) and they plan to offer a new exciting Prius. I know what that means, a shark-mouth front end just like everything else Toyota is coming out with.

paddlenbike

04-16-2015, 08:16 AM

There are two other Golfs of interest, the GTE and GTD. The GTE is a hybrid with a 148 hp 1.4L turbo gas engine combined with a 101 hp electric motor, a 31 mile all-electric range and 0-62 in 7.6 seconds. The most important part is it has GTI underpinnings. Won't come to the U.S. though.

And the GTD is a TDI diesel Golf but with a revised block and head, different intercooler and turbo, with output increased to 184 hp and 280 ft lbs of torque. It also has GTI underpinnings, which means it sits 0.6" lower than a regular Golf. May come to the U.S.

That makes the Golf line available with a gas engine, diesel, hybrid and electric powertrains.

It's good looking too.
http://fastestlaps.com/photos/vw_golf_gtd_mkvii_513f505e74e74.jpg

Kryptoroxx

04-19-2015, 08:12 AM

They are fairly good looking I agree. Tech is moving ahead at a pretty good pace.

Seanz0rz

04-19-2015, 09:32 AM

I see a bit of a problem with the design of electric cars. Most people probably want something that looks like a normal car but is a bit special to show off the fact it is electric. Some want a sleeper, no change what so ever, except maybe a badge. Others want something like the I3 where it looks like a space ship from the galaxy Ugly.

I haven't see anyone do the middle correctly.

The Rav4 electric had that weird face, and I have seen more on the back of tow trucks than on the road under their own power.
The electric Fiat 500 still looks like a 500, which is a big mistake.

The Volt is meh, especially when compared to the concept. It is not a bad looking car, but it sounds like they have about 2.5 their desired inventory level, wonder why?
The Leaf is not a pretty car, but does the "Look, I'm electric!" very well without looking too strange.

That Golf looks pretty decent, mainly because it still looks like a golf. As long as they keep the "fun to drive" box checked, it will be a winner, especially among people who want an electric car and not just a fashion statement.

I am hopeful for the future of electric cars, and I may very well buy one in the next generation where range is over 150 miles. I am really looking forward to some new designs and some "out of the box" thinking, as long as it is less concept car bull, and more adding real value to the product.

I have to say, the Tesla is the winner in the design department, at least with the Model S (the X looks like it is going to be awkward). I see them all the time, and instantly know what it is, but not in a bad way. From a distance, it looks like it could be an Audi. It just has so much class, something a Toyota (even in Lexus trim) or anyone else will never have.

paddlenbike

04-20-2015, 02:18 PM

Right now, I enjoy the fact that the Leaf is recognizable as an electric vehicle. People always ask us about the car and I enjoy talking to people about it. I have let half my neighborhood drive it. None of that would happen with an e-Golf or Focus electric. But I'm over it now and want my next one to be a good looking car. As you said Sean, Tesla has done a really good job of making that statement without making an ugly spaceship car. I really, really want Nissan's next Leaf to make that happen too, while providing the 150+ miles of range that they promise.

The Nissan Sway concept could possibly be the next Leaf. If so, I kind of like it:
http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/750x422/quality/95/http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/337/521/7/S3375217/slug/l/nissan-sway-concept-03-1.jpg

The Leaf was the first mass produced EV so I sort of expect it to be about refining the electric powertrain and offering not a lot else. I want the next version to combine everything they have learned about electrification and software and combine that with a chassis that does more than hold the wheels and motor. I want a hot-hatch EV. Not sure I'll get that with round 2, but I can hope. Tesla has proven that two electric motors are more efficient than one, so high-HP affordable AWD electrics should come, with time.

Seanz0rz

04-20-2015, 02:56 PM

You should totally get a BMW i3. That is the most beautiful of all the cars, not just the EVs. Said no one ever.

paddlenbike

04-20-2015, 08:20 PM

I have no room to talk since I drive one of the ugliest cars made but I can certainly agree the BMW is ugly.

Seanz0rz

04-20-2015, 09:20 PM

I dont think the leaf is ugly. It is not beautiful but it has nice lines and proportions. The BMW i3 looks like some rejected Apple iPod packaging made it's way into a car.

paddlenbike

04-24-2015, 07:57 AM

I like this Ford Focus EV commercial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdklVANhQj8

arjan

05-22-2015, 09:08 AM

paddlenbike

05-22-2015, 10:04 AM

A very interesting thread, up here (greater vancouver area) I don't see many electric cars. We have 3 quite dark and rainy months a year. I would imagine the heating, lights and wipers, and cool temperatures would reduce the range a fair bit in the winter.

I've actually looked at them, but the range has always been my concern.

Range will be a limiting factor for EV sales as long as the range remains <100 miles as it is today. The fact collectors keep telling us that is all the range we need because we drive less than that on a daily basis. While that may be true, it takes a while to get used to driving a car that essentially starts out with the equivalent of only one-quarter of a tank of fuel. It works great for me because nearly all of my routine driving is within the range of the car, with one exception. My family all lives in the foothills, just over 100 miles away. On those routine trips I would take the Leaf if I could, but need to take the gas car because there is not reliable public charging infrastructure in those mountain towns. So the 150-200 mile range EVs that are apparently hitting the market next year won't be a game-changer for me, but it would broaden the coverage of my routine driving from 98% to 100%. I think many people want a vehicle that is capable of 150% of what the intended use is (isn't that what these 4x4 forums are all about?...making sure our vehicles are overbuilt for the intended use?) So I think that extra range will help EV sales immensely. It still won't work for some people though. For me, it's great because on really long trips we would take the 4Runner anyway.

Headlights, wipers and even A/C use very little of the battery, but heating is another issue. The 2013+ Leafs use a heat pump rather than a resistance heat heater, which uses 1/2 to 1/3rd of the amount of energy. But in cold climates it does cause a noticeable range hit. That's why Leafs come with heated seats front and rear and heated steering wheels--those are far more efficient than heating the entire cabin. When I turn on the heat in cold weather, the range meter instantly drops a couple of miles. In my California climate this is not an issue, but back east you can loose 20% of your range.

That converted Porsche is so cool. Love the classic body with futuristic drivetrain.

paddlenbike

05-27-2015, 08:24 AM

Battery tech is getting better everyday. Each lithium ion battery cell is packing more energy density in the same size and weight and meanwhile the cost of each cell is coming down in price. Since the LEAF first came out in 2011, cell density has increased by about 30%. So Nissan just packed the LEAF's old battery case with the new cells, resulting in a 30 kW battery, up from 24 kW. Range is predicted to be 109-110 miles, up from 86 miles. The part that I am excited about--the new battery will work in the older LEAFs like mine, effectively giving lessees like me some serious incentive to buy our own cars out of lease. Putting a new battery in an EV is like getting a whole new car, because there isn't much to wear out and there are virtually no maintenance items on the car.

This is a stop-gap measure as next year LEAF 2.0 will be unveiled with 150-200 miles of range. The big decision for me, do I buy my own 86 mile car out of lease for $9,200 knowing that when the time comes I can upgrade the battery to a bigger one than it came with, or spend $25,000 on a new model that has 150-200 miles of range? The third option is to walk away, use the $210/month (that I was paying for the lease) to pay for gas (plus some) and add another $100/month for parking since I get a discounted EV rate.

I am saving $3,000 a year in fuel, so the car would pay for itself in just over 3 years.

DHC6twinotter

05-30-2015, 05:01 PM

We have a Leaf at work that I've driven a few times. It's a neat little car. I find the steering wheel shaker/fake starter noise interesting. If I had a longer commute, I would probably consider a Leaf, or maybe one of the other electric cars.

paddlenbike

05-30-2015, 10:09 PM

Robinhood4x4

05-31-2015, 05:38 AM

Maybe they're trying to copy Harley.

Seanz0rz

05-31-2015, 09:10 AM

Funny you should mention Harley in the electric car thread.

I have been looking, VERY casually, at motorcycles for my work commute. I have pretty much decided they are not for me for many reasons. I was wondering about the electric motorcycles and the price is just too high, but they have another HUGE problem. They are silent. In California, where lane splitting is legal (or at least not illegal), the noise is a very important part of a bike's presence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzmKcxIVxUA

YotaFun

05-31-2015, 12:49 PM

I got the privilege to sit in the older model Tesla Model S,
I am hooked, I would love to daily one of those, but the 65k price tag just will not cut it -_-
The newest model is so cool, and I don't know if you all are aware of this or not, its a 7 seat, the rear hatch area has a rumble seat that faces rear ward like the old wagons.

DHC6twinotter

05-31-2015, 09:12 PM

Steering wheel shaker and fake starter noise? I have never heard of that.

Yeah, for a few seconds after I push the start button, there is a slight vibration in the steering wheel and a clicking noise that sounds a bit like a starter. I assumed they were trying to mimic the sound and feel of a starter, but maybe our Leaf is broke...lol. Maybe there is something wrong with the electric steering (assuming it has electric steering). Now I'll have to investigate further.

paddlenbike

05-31-2015, 09:52 PM

I have been looking, VERY casually, at motorcycles for my work commute. I have pretty much decided they are not for me for many reasons. I was wondering about the electric motorcycles and the price is just too high, but they have another HUGE problem. They are silent. In California, where lane splitting is legal (or at least not illegal), the noise is a very important part of a bike's presence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzmKcxIVxUA

The video that you posted has the exact start up sounds available on my car too. There is no tactic feedback on the steering wheel, but if you put pressure on the steering wheel while you hit the start button, the wheel will tug as the electric power steering kicks in. Our gas-engine Acura has electric power steering and does the same thing. Maybe that's what you felt Dan?

Sean, your lane-splitting concerns are very real. I always hear the bikes before I see them, so lane-splitting on a silent bike could be dangerous.

I got the privilege to sit in the older model Tesla Model S,
I am hooked, I would love to daily one of those, but the 65k price tag just will not cut it -_-
The newest model is so cool, and I don't know if you all are aware of this or not, its a 7 seat, the rear hatch area has a rumble seat that faces rear ward like the old wagons.

Too much coin for a car, but Teslas are very nice. The 2nd gen Chevy Volt is coming out in a couple of months. LG Chem, who makes the batteries for the Volt, stated that the 2016 battery is 40% more dense (in the same packaging) and costs half what it did in 2011. 2017-2018 will bring some very exciting EVs.

I did some quick math the other day. If I walk away from my LEAF lease and drive the 4Runner to work, I'm looking at spending $150 more per month than I pay for all LEAF-related expenses including the lease, insurance, license and electricity. I get 1/2 off parking downtown for having an EV, so that is part of the equation. Not factored here are oil changes, tune ups (belts, hoses, fluid changes), etc. on the 4Runner; parts that the LEAF doesn't even have.

DHC6twinotter

05-31-2015, 10:13 PM

The company Leaf doesn't have any of those start up sounds, but there are a few click sounds right after I push start. Could be some relays too, maybe. If the Leaf is available tomorrow, I'll see if I can have a closer look.

I'm excited about the Tesla 3. They're saying it could be under 30 grand with the rebates, plus a 200 mile range. That could be a game changer. I would be super tempted to get one if I had a longer commute.

paddlenbike

07-24-2015, 08:13 AM

I am now half-way through my 3 year lease on the LEAF and I still really like this car. I have just over 17,000 miles on the odometer and the car has burned 3,848.9 kilowatts of electricity worth $434.92 (11.3 cents per kilowatt at my house). The 4Runner would go less than 2,300 miles on that same money. It's still hard for me to believe it's that cheap to drive, and quite frankly I have most certainly spent less than $50 total on electricity since I mostly charge at work.

The Chevy Volt, while not fully electric, is turning out to be a really well engineered car too. There are a few out there that now have 250,000 miles on the odometer and the batteries and engine are still working like new. Because most Volts spend more than 65% of their life running solely on electricity, the wear and tear on the gas motor is a fraction of what it would be on a regular gas car, plus the high torque requirement of getting the car rolling is always put on the electric motor and keeps the gas generator from having to see those loads.

I am happy to see more EVs and extended range EVs (like the Volt) coming to market next year.

YotaFun

07-31-2015, 06:27 PM

Electric cars are definitely catching on.
I didn't get a chance to snap a picture, but down at the beach here in Delaware are the Tanger outlets,
combine those with tax free shopping, its a happening place.
Well recently they have revamped the 3 main outlets with new looks and now, charging stations!
So electric cars are definitely catching on.
What I find funny, is the cars parked at those charge stations, Tesla, every single outlet...
I haven't seen many leafs floating around but Tesla has definitely been popping up more and more.

I am def looking to the future of EVs might be a option depending on where I end up :-)

Seanz0rz

08-01-2015, 12:38 PM

YotaFun

08-01-2015, 05:54 PM

I see at least one Tesla a day, probably the same guy but since I moved to Delaware its been a different color every year, first it was silver, then it was white now it it red lol

We had two come through work, they were pretty sweet.

I would love a Tesla, but will would probably settle for a leaf if the option presents itself...

Kryptoroxx

08-02-2015, 11:56 AM

I see at least one Tesla on my daily commute, sometimes 2 or 3. I see a number of leafs and volts as well. I saw a C-Max Energi the other day on the offramp.

Our local WalMart has had charging stations since the EV1 days, and now about all you see there is Teslas. Funny to see a $120k vehicle in the back of the Walmart parking lot!
Whenever I come down from the high desert I see at least 3 teslas. They are pretty nice looking cars. Saw a couple of leafs but honestly I see the most volts. It's ugly and sticks out.

For all of the tree hugging hippies out here there are absolutely no charging stations before palm springs. You're stuck with 120 for charging period out here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

paddlenbike

08-03-2015, 07:45 AM

Another car that is often overlooked is the Chevrolet Volt. GM has made sh*t cars as long as I have been alive, but the Volt is truly a well engineered car. Unlike the completely pathetic plug in Prius, the Volt is an electric vehicle until it runs out of juice, at which point the gas generator starts and recharges the battery. The plug in prius has a completely different architecture and it can't accelerate, run cabin heat or drive over 61 MPH on electricity, not to mention its pathetic 6 mile range. The 2016 Volt was just officially rated by EPA today at 53 miles of all-electric range and 47 MPG after the gas generator starts.

http://insideevs.com/2016-chevrolet-volt-rated-at-53-miles-electric-range-106-mpge-42-mpg-on-gas/

GM needs to make an SUV with that drivetrain.

Seanz0rz

08-03-2015, 09:13 AM

I saw a camo'd next gen Prius making its way up the back of a flat bed on the side of the freeway a few weeks ago. Engineer did not look happy.

YotaFun

08-03-2015, 02:46 PM

Kryptoroxx

08-03-2015, 05:11 PM

We have had a few Volts come thru, and when I think about it, usually doesn't need too much make sure they are good for resell.
But I just can not get over the looks of it, I would rather have the leaf.

Toyota really needs to get there head in the game or just give up.

I would love an SUV with a drive train like that or any all electric drive.

maybe I should just save my pennies for a Tesla
Hate to say it but my personal opinion is that electric isn't the answer for personal transport yet. Don't get me wrong I think the development of batteries and hybrid are both amazing but I will bet my bottom dollar the winner is going to be who comes out with a safe hydrogen setup. Toyota is working on that currently in socal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

4x4mike

08-03-2015, 05:27 PM

Toyota really needs to get there head in the game or just give up.

I would love an SUV with a drive train like that or any all electric drive.

This guys is on Pirate and has a few electric toys. One being a third gen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l8ap34OSxw

paddlenbike

08-04-2015, 07:25 AM

Hate to say it but my personal opinion is that electric isn't the answer for personal transport yet. Don't get me wrong I think the development of batteries and hybrid are both amazing but I will bet my bottom dollar the winner is going to be who comes out with a safe hydrogen setup. Toyota is working on that currently in socal.

Toyota is taking orders for the Mirai and the interest level has been dismal.

"When the Chevrolet Volt first launched, GM-Volt.com had accumulated a want list of more than 50,000 consumers interested in the car, with more than 20,000 willing to put down a deposit – this without any promotion from GM itself.

When the Nissan opened its web-portal for Americans to make $99 reservations on the LEAF, the site was instantly bogged down to a crawl.

“We had 2,700 reservations in the first three hours,” reported Nissan’s senior director for customer management and business strategy. Some 117,000 had even signed up ahead of the launch expressing interest.

So how about for the Toyota Mirai? The much touted and advertised fuel cell vehicle, whose “Request Portal” opened on July 10th?

In the first 10 days of availability, Toyota reports 600 persons have expressed interest in being “contacted directly by a Toyota representative to explore the possibility of Mirai ownership.” Source: http://insideevs.com/initial-demand-toyota-mirai-us-good/

The carbon footprint of a fool cell vehicle is much higher than an EV and, at best, the efficiency will be 50% of an EV. People that have them say the refueling locations that do exist aren't set up for retail transactions, so often refilling takes more than 30 minutes. You can read more about all the fails on greencarreports.com. I see hydrogen as a no-go, except for maybe long-range trucking.

paddlenbike

08-04-2015, 07:38 AM

For some reason UY won't let me edit my post. Here's are some of the issues with fuel cell vehicles:

- The higher carbon footprint per mile required to drive on hydrogen versus using the same energy to recharge a battery-powered car;

-The substantial cost (in the billions of dollars) of creating even regional hydrogen fueling networks, let alone a ubiquitous North American network that would give the same coverage as today's gas stations do;

-The concern that hydrogen will end up costing roughly the same per mile as gasoline, while electricity's cost-per-mile to the consumer is usually lower, and often three to five times lower;

-The belief that automakers are using hydrogen vehicles as a delaying tactic to retard the world's inevitable transition to electric vehicles powered from the grid;

-The belief that "Big Oil" is behind hydrogen vehicles as a way to maintain its market for fossil fuels, since most hydrogen today is made from natural gas; and even

Some of the 70 or so Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV drivers in Southern California have complained that they can't reliable refuel their cars, which they've leased over the last year. Source: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099323_toyota-tackles-hydrogen-fueling-challenges-as-mirai-launch-approaches

California only has 48 hydrogen stations that are either planned or funded. The cost to add new hydrogen stations are in the billions, as opposed to running some wire in the ground to support electric vehicle charging.

What angers most EV owners more than anything are Toyota's anti-EV ads. How can you bash EVs and meanwhile try and sell a car you can only refuel in southern California? (And not reliably, at that.)

Kryptoroxx

08-04-2015, 06:30 PM

While I agree the infastructure is not built for retail currently here are some of the pros of moving to hydrogen versus electricity.

Most of America's electricity comes from coal. While I agree the carbon footprint of the car is lower.....the carbon footprint of increasing usage on an already taxed electrical grid on top of the materials needed to make the batteries. Those processes are inherently dirty right now and require extensive development before it is a smaller footprint than hydrogen when the total energy cycle is reviewed.

The new taxes and requirements for coal plants set to take effect very soon will make a big impact in the cost of electricity across the board so the price per mile will be much closer to hydrogen than right now.

If there were more interest in nuclear plants the carbon footprint would be lower than hydrogen. Alas that was ruined by the government as well.

Most cars can be modified to run on hydrogen quite well making it a less costly conversion for the individual. Large investments are what this country strives on. It's a big risk......but the returns would also be huge.

While the idea of exiting fossil fuels is a wonderful concept and idea it will not end overnight even if our cars are all electric. The power has to come from somewhere. There is not enough power generated by tidal, solar, wind, and nuclear to eliminate the natural gas and coal fueled power plants. All we will end up doing is burning more fossil fuels to make less power after the inefficiencies of the electrical production, transportation, transformation, charging, and finally the running of the electric car. There's a lot of loss of potential energy in all of those equations.

Shortening the supply chain will produce greater efficiency over all at this point in our development. I am sure it the future with the development of fusion electricity would tip the scales.

The small businesses and franchises that would develop surrounding the infastructure needed for hydrogen would be worth more than the continuation of public/private run power company conglomerates in my opinion as well. The expansion of the power grid might cause jobs to be created but they would all fall within existing companies territories.

paddlenbike

08-05-2015, 09:13 AM

Kryptoroxx

08-06-2015, 05:18 AM

I am not opposed to development of fuel cell technology, but I sure as heck won't be buying it. Compared to an EV, a Mirai costs over twice as much to buy, cannot be refueled anywhere near the city I live, and if there was a hydrogen station I would have to go out of my way to refuel vs my EV that charges in my driveway, oh yeah, and the Mirai makes even my ugly Leaf look like a gorgeous car!

I can see these things being more practical 15 years from now if a huge amount of money is spent on the infrastructure to support it. Every technology has to start somewhere. Until then, I'll be relying on my plug for refueling. :-)
I remember when electric was the same thing. You got like 20 miles of range, had to charge overnight and was only slightly bigger than a golf cart.

I can agree that oil has much better purposes than gasoline and diesel though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

paddlenbike

08-27-2015, 07:41 AM

The Tesla Model S "broke" Consumer Reports scoring system, with a final score of 103 on a scoring sytem that, by definition, does not go past 100. The video is long but the first few minutes explains how this car will change their future ratings for other cars.
http://insideevs.com/consumer-reports-talking-cars-discusses-103-point-score-tesla-model-s-p85d-video/

It's a damned expensive car, but just like formula 1 and other forms of racing, the technology and its performance virtues will get cheaper and trickle down to something we can all afford.

paddlenbike

09-17-2015, 08:32 AM

I am pretty sure Tesla does not make this mistake. I get these letters about once a month saying they haven't seen my 2013 Nissan Leaf for service in a while and offer me cheap oil changes, timing belts and tune-ups. I do have tires they could check, oh, and the interior wash & vacuum would be nice. :rolleyes:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PT2XzJmECnE/VfrYZj3EUrI/AAAAAAAA06w/0jgju4f8Rb4/s800-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg

Robinhood4x4

09-18-2015, 06:53 AM

Lol...

garrett

09-23-2015, 07:36 AM

not sure who here reads waitbutwhy, but here is some 'light' reading on elon musk, tesla, EVs, and more... good info on EV vs hydrogen vs other technologies. (parts 1 and 2 specifically)

http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/05/elon-musk-the-worlds-raddest-man.html

paddlenbike

01-14-2016, 10:59 AM

Tomorrow marks year 2 of 3 on our leased Nissan Leaf. It is still working very well for our family. It's our primary car at this point as we are putting 12,000 miles a year on it and far less on our other cars. The torque is awesome, the app-controlled climate control is great during hot/cold weather so you're never climbing in a frozen-over car, no maintenance and never visiting the gas station are my favorite features. Not much can beat it in stoplight races and it has embarrassed many small-penis coal-rollin' diesel pickup owners.

Leafs are known for battery capacity loss in hot climates, and I certainly live in a hot climate. I started tracking capacity loss via a bluetooth OBD II reader and an app called Leafspy. Since June of 2015 the amp-hours of the 400V lithium battery have gone from a high of 58.64 amp hours to today's reading of 58.19 amp hours, representing less than 1% loss. I only have this car for three years so I have no concerns over battery degradation, but I would be concerned if I was keeping longterm like I do my other cars.

My advice: with 200+ mile EVs coming late this year, there is no reason to be stuck with an 84 mile car like mine. 200 miles + an expanding charging infrastructure (at least in my area--for yours check plugshare.com), means a very usable car compared to what I currently have.

If you plan to buy and keep it longterm, I would recommend getting an EV that has a temperature-controlled battery as they hold up much better in climate extremes. New battery chemistries promise to tolerate heat better, but lab environments never seem to accurately replicate real conditions, so we will see on that one. The current Leaf does not have battery cooling.

I have one year left on this car and the jury is out whether or not I replace it with another EV. The 2017 Leaf should have 200+ miles of range, the Chevy Bolt will too, and the Tesla Model III is coming late '17. I am not willing to pay much more than I am now for my lease, so if the new tech costs too much I will go back to driving the 4Runner.

garrett

01-14-2016, 12:35 PM

I have one year left on this car and the jury is out whether or not I replace it with another EV. The 2017 Leaf should have 200+ miles of range, the Chevy Bolt will too, and the Tesla Model III is coming late '17. I am not willing to pay much more than I am now for my lease, so if the new tech costs too much I will go back to driving the 4Runner.

This is surprising to read. Your initial posts on your Leaf in this forum is what got me looking into BEVs in the first place, and I have been doing a ton of reading in the Tesla forums. It seems like most people enjoy the driving experience of an EV so much that it would be hard to go back. Could you really go back to daily driving the 4Runner after 3 years in an EV, even if they cost more than your current lease?

paddlenbike

01-14-2016, 12:58 PM

This is surprising to read. Your initial posts on your Leaf in this forum is what got me looking into BEVs in the first place, and I have been doing a ton of reading in the Tesla forums. It seems like most people enjoy the driving experience of an EV so much that it would be hard to go back. Could you really go back to daily driving the 4Runner after 3 years in an EV, even if they cost more than your current lease?

I would miss the EV ownership greatly. Our family is one income now and additional costs over what we pay now would be difficult to manage. I still contend that I will not ever buy another internal combustion car.

4x4mike

01-14-2016, 02:36 PM

I still contend that I will not ever buy another internal combustion car.

*cough* bullsh!t *cough*

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/1973FordLTD02.jpg

Your statement better not be true.

paddlenbike

01-14-2016, 02:41 PM

^^

I would make an exception for a big-block powered daily driver derby car, only I'm keeping it your house Mike.

Robinhood4x4

01-22-2016, 06:47 PM

I have to admit, I chuckled.

paddlenbike

02-19-2016, 02:44 PM

A Tesla Model S is finally within my financial reach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGom8Y5wAow

4x4mike

02-24-2016, 06:44 AM

A Tesla Model S is finally within my financial reach.

Do it!

Jaydee914

03-22-2016, 10:56 PM

After contemplating for what seems like forever, I've crossed over and leased an ev. Fiat is offering their 500e for $99/month and I couldn't resist. A coworker of mine told me about taking advantage of the deal yesterday morning and 36 hours later, I drove home in one of my own.
Even with insurance figured in, I'll be paying less (or at least the same) for the Fiat than for gas in my 4Runner and I won't have to deal with the roar of my off road tires, tippy handling and less than optimal braking. Plus, we now have a vehicle we don't mind using to teach my step-daughter to drive in.
AND, I should be able to get 3-4 days of commuting in before I recharge the car at work!

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Seanz0rz

03-23-2016, 05:48 AM

Awesome!

I would already have one if I could charge at work. I might get one when the next generation comes out in 2 years or so.

paddlenbike

03-23-2016, 07:43 AM

Jaydee914

03-24-2016, 08:51 AM

Another positive and money-saving point to the electric lease is no maintenance! No oil changes, nothing to maintain and if anything goes wrong, the dealer takes care of it.

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paddlenbike

04-01-2016, 03:06 PM

Something showed up on my bank statement that read "Tesla Motors Deposit." I wonder what that could be?

Seanz0rz

04-01-2016, 03:29 PM

Nice!

Good Times

04-01-2016, 04:00 PM

O no you didn't!! That's awesome!

YotaFun

04-01-2016, 04:39 PM

Something showed up on my bank statement that read "Tesla Motors Deposit." I wonder what that could be?

Very Nice!

paddlenbike

04-01-2016, 08:06 PM

The deposit is completely refundable as I may go the route Mike suggested instead.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/1973FordLTD02.jpg

4x4mike

04-03-2016, 08:53 AM

Did you buy the Radio Flyer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGom8Y5wAow

paddlenbike

04-03-2016, 10:06 AM

The Radio Flyer version is a real car you can buy today. The Model 3 deliveries won't even start until 1.5 years from now. I reserved the morning after the reveal and I'm probably somewhere around #150,000 in the queue. Last I heard there were 253,000 orders for the car as of Saturday morning. That is crazy.

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/elon-musk-tweets-253k-model-3-deposits.jpg

Meanwhile Toyota bet on fuel cell technology and had sold 57 Mirai's in the four months it has been available. Good move Toyota.

malteserunner

04-03-2016, 05:30 PM

Meanwhile Toyota bet on fuel cell technology and had sold 57 Mirai's in the four months it has been available. Good move Toyota.

Maybe if it wasn't ugly as sin, it would be a better seller.

Tesla is a sexy car!

Seanz0rz

04-03-2016, 07:18 PM

I have to agree with Adam, if it wasn't the ugliest car for sale today, maybe they would sell more.

paddlenbike

04-03-2016, 09:05 PM

I have to agree with Adam, if it wasn't the ugliest car for sale today, maybe they would sell more.

Toyota has a problem with ugly across much of the Toyota/Lexus lineup.

I am not sure how other manufacturers are going to compete with Tesla on this one. The Chevy Bolt will beat the Tesla Model 3 to market, but it costs more, has less range, certainly isn't sexy and lacks Tesla's charging network. The new Nissan Leaf is coming too, but I don't expect it to compete in the same class, which means somehow they will have it price it really low. When you figure the Model 3 only costs $600 more than the 84 mile Leaf I have, Nissan will have to double the battery capacity, make it far better looking AND cut the price just to compete. I hadn't planned to make a deposit, but after I saw the car and read reviews of people that have driven the pre-production Model 3s, I knew I had to at least throw my name in the pile. I don't buy cars willy-nilly, but I think this one will be a game-changer and if the financials make sense, I will go through with it.

http://pop.h-cdn.co/assets/16/13/768x384/gallery-1459487318-model-3-unveil.jpg

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2016/04/Tesla_Model_3.jpg.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg

All we know is:
-$35k before rebates (currently $10k, but will be lower as time goes on)
-Minimum 215 miles of range (dual motor AWD versions are more efficient and have greater range)
- 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds in slowest version
- 5 star safety rating
- Tesla supercharger access
- Optional dual motor AWD
- Optional crazy fast models

I just hope Tesla can pull this one off.

toyotech

04-04-2016, 09:25 PM

paddlenbike

04-04-2016, 10:55 PM

The biggest downfall for tesla will be repair facilities. Sure most people will be buying tesla as a second vehicle but at 35k. It could be the only vehicle for a single person. I don't know about yo but I don't think I could be down my only vehicle and have to tow it back to HQ for repairs.

I am not sure whether Tesla will fail massively or be the next Apple, to which they are often compared. On one hand they have a cult following, make an amazing product that literally every auto manufacturer is struggling to duplicate, they have 300,000 pre-orders and have enough room in their factory to build out to 500,000 cars per year. On the other hand, at 500,000 cars per year they will have to produce as many lithium batteries as the entire world currently manufactures (hence, their gigafactory in Nevada), and triple or quadruple their assembly line production. That is no easy task, but I wish Elon and Tesla the best.

Jaydee914

04-05-2016, 07:09 AM

What I like about Tesla is that they truly believe in EV's and are attacking their shortcomings head on. Lack of range, lack of infrastructure. Tesla's success might not necessarily be billions in Musk's pocket: it will be pushing the EV industry as a whole to the mainstream as other companies fight to keep up or begin making use of Tesla's technology.
Speaking of that, aren't all Tesla patents free to use? I'm surprised nobody has partnered with Tesla yet to gain access to their Superchargers to increase the range of their vehicles (yes, they'd need to modify their charging interface for the Superchargers).

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Jaydee914

04-05-2016, 07:18 AM

Also, I read an interesting article on Jalopnik suggesting that Tesla sell their chassis, which is essentially an electric skateboard underneath the body, to specialty coachbuilders. These small companies wouldn't need to develop the most expensive, complicated part of their vehicles - the drivetrain. They could simply source that entirely from Tesla and then build custom bodies to plop on top - just like people used to do with VW's in the 70's.
Could you imagine a modern, electric dune buggy?

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Jaydee914

04-05-2016, 07:23 AM

As I was saying... http://jalopnik.com/why-nissan-is-stoked-over-all-the-tesla-model-3-pre-ord-1769098597

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Jaydee914

04-05-2016, 07:29 AM

And here's the Jalopnik article about the Tesla chassis. http://jalopnik.com/why-tesla-needs-to-sell-the-model-3-without-a-body-1767589269

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Good Times

04-05-2016, 03:37 PM

That second link on the chassis concept is definitely interesting. If the smaller coach builders do jump on this it'll be very interesting to see how the market changes.

For now I'm gonna sit on the sidelines and see how the auto industry changes and then begin considering a new vehicle. For now my old clunkers are stuck with me.

Seanz0rz

04-05-2016, 04:15 PM

pair that modular chassis with this new law: http://jalopnik.com/new-low-volume-car-bill-is-almost-great-save-for-one-bi-1712399892

We could see some truly awesome, low volume automobiles come out. Just think, an electric GT40. Or how about an electric 63 Lincoln Continental. Corvair? Rambler? Citroen DS?

You have my vote!!!

Jaydee914

04-05-2016, 07:52 PM

That's really weird about that proposed law, that it has to be a replica. Seems very arbitrary and limiting.

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Good Times

04-05-2016, 09:19 PM

Well that just poopooed really fast downhill.

paddlenbike

06-07-2016, 10:36 PM

Now that EVs have been out since ~2009 we are starting to get a little information on battery longevity. The report below has some pretty encouraging numbers. I suppose I can buy with confidence.

---------------

We’re breaking new ground with the fleets of electric-powered and autonomous cars coming our way in the next 2 to 10 years. Range anxiety — how far can I go on a charge? — arises when considering all-electric cars versus gas and diesel power, but that concern will be answered with higher-capacity batteries and more widely dispersed charging stations.

Another interesting question is about the lithium-ion batteries in electrical vehicles. How long will they last? Sure, they’re rechargeable, but so are laptop lithium-ion batteries, and we know they degrade and eventually wear out. So what about electric car batteries? The way they’re built or tucked into vehicle chassis, switching them for new ones sounds like a considerable service effort and an even more considerable expense.

Tesla Motors has a reassuring answer to the question of e-car battery longevity, according to Electrek. All Tesla’s come with an 8-year, transferable, unlimited warranty on the batteries and the drive train. It’s called the Infinite Mile Warranty. The catch is that “the loss of battery energy or power over time due to normal battery usage is not covered under this warranty.” So the question still remains, what can we expect for power?

An electric vehicle advocacy group called Plug In America surveyed Tesla Model S owners. The survey used data from 495 vehicles that traveled 12,588,649 miles in total, and 17,214 miles per year on average. You can access the full report on the survey website, but the summary is promising. The survey showed that on average the Model S lost about 5 percent of their power in the first 50,000 miles and that the degradation then slowed. Tesla’s Model S hasn’t been available longer than four years, but among several with 100,000-plus miles, the battery pack degradation was less than 8 percent.

With all the power in reserve in Tesla models, those figures sound pretty good, but the company is going further. Tesla is partnering with Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, to find ways to improve lithium-ion battery cell longevity. Electrek noted that CEO Elon Musk has stated Tesla has a battery back in its lab with more than 500,000 simulated miles still operating at over 80 percent of its original capacity.

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/e-car-battery-wears-survey-223306419.html

Good Times

06-08-2016, 03:00 PM

Interesting read. 8% over half a million miles is pretty impressive. Gotta say why can't they make better batteries for cell phones and laptops? sheesh!

Makes me more interested in the other Tesla products however I read recently that the Model 3 won't have free access to their supercharge centers. Only the Model S and maybe the X (not sure).

Jaydee914

06-08-2016, 06:02 PM

Yes, the X has free Supercharger access, which is a bonus for paying for a premium product. In order for Tesla to start venturing into the lower cost vehicle segments, something has to give and perks like free energy is the first to go.
Honestly, I think that's totally reasonable. Free Supercharger access is only something that should be taken advantage of on road trips. Tesla owners of all levels are encouraged to charge overnight at their house, not go out of their way to regularly use the Superchargers. With the range of these vehicles, how often would you absolutely need to use a free Supercharge while on the road? Enough to warrant the cost of a Type S over a 3?
I didn't put a deposit down on the 3, but I'm excited for them to arrive and may be ready to purchase one when they are (which just so happens to coincide when the lease on my 500e ends).

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paddlenbike

08-23-2016, 12:09 PM

I can't believe I am approaching three years with my leased 2013 Nissan Leaf and it's almost time to turn it in. Here are my final impressions:

Drivetrain:
The instant electric motor torque, lack of noise or vibration and 1-speed transmission with no shifting will spoil you. Not sure what else I can say, it's awesome. The lack of maintenance requirements, oil changes and even weekly stops at the gas station makes gas cars feel like a serious hassle.

Chassis/suspension:
The Leaf is a Gen 1 car and all the development went into the powertrain, and therefore the chassis/suspension are economy car basic to keep costs down. It rides okay, handles okay, but any Honda Accord would beat the Leaf in the ride and handling department.

Aesthetics:
It doesn't have any. It's the ugliest car on the road, with the exception of the new Prius, which makes the Leaf look like a Aston Martin.

Range:
My Gen 1 Leaf came with 84 miles of range, which has recently been increased to 108 miles due to higher battery capacity. The new EVs coming late this year will at least double that number.

Charging:
Public charging is hit or miss. There are quite a few 240V chargers in California, but those are too slow for road tripping--they take around 3 hours to top off a low battery. Many Leafs have a 480V DC quick charge port, but those DC chargers tend to only have one charging head and there is often a queue waiting to use it. Mine has never been used for this reason. Fail. Tesla has a proprietary supercharger network that features around 7 chargers per site and as of right now they are under-utilized. Tesla=win; public fast charging that non-Teslas require are still a fail.

Battery life:
2011 and 2012 Leafs had batteries that lost capacity in hot climates, 2013+ batteries were better. (Mine is a 2013). In 30,000 miles I have experienced no noticeable loss of capacity--the car still takes the same percentage of the battery to do my commute that it did when it was new. The total range does not seem to have changed. That said, plenty of people report these cars do loose range in hot climates. Tesla uses a liquid cooling system to preserve battery life, Nissan does not. I would assume you may not want a non-active cooled battery if you live in a hot climate like I do. I assume if I kept the car a couple years longer that I would begin to notice battery degradation and loss of range.

Recalls:
I think mine is on the 4th or 5th recall, all related to airbags. Our Acura has had the same issue. Both cars have spent more time at dealerships than the 4Runner has in it's entire life. That's the reality of modern cars, I think.

Overall:
This car has worked great for me; I use it for nearly all of my driving. I have the 4Runner for when I need to go farther than the range allows. That said, Gen 2 cars will have much better range and now that battery costs have come down, some of that money can be spent on a better chassis (for example, more expensive double wishbone suspensions rather than macpherson strut) and a body design that doesn't look like an eggshell, aka, Tesla Model 3. I've really enjoyed this car but so glad I don't own it because of the promise gen 2 cars hold. The future is looking bright.