fitting 15" steel rims on a 16" brake

[troyboy162]

I should note that these post pertains to 96-02 4runner brakes that came with the 16" rim package. There are 4runners that had different smaller brakes and 15" rims as well(I have no info on those). The information wont exactly pertain to tacomas since there 15" and 16" were different calipers then 4runners.

I've been watching 15" tire prices for awhile and contemplating the switch. On average they are about 2/3rds the price of a 16" rim 35" tire. Not to mention this is a way into cheap steel bead locks. Initial investment is not any savings. Basicly I get free rims and don't save any money. But I also needed more backspacing anyways.

I bought procomp d window 3.75 bs 8" wide wheels. With a 1/4 spacer about 1/8" material is removed. I researched and someone else took much much more off to fit 15" alloys. Also I barely went deeper then two casting defects. Oh its scary, but I think I'm very safe
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140217_131820_zpszrlzdzng.jpg (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/troyboy162/media/long%20travel/IMG_20140217_131820_zpszrlzdzng.jpg.html)

[Seanz0rz]

I'd do some testes with the abs and super hard stops, maybe 10 or 12 or until the brakes start to fade, see if they spring a leak. After that, I'd think they should be good to go.

[troyboy162]

deffiantly a few test stops to be sure, but I'm pretty confident given this picture of what a kid did. Granted he is most likley not left with a safe amount of meat, but I can see the casting is thick on the ends. 138

[Seanz0rz]

Oh wow! Yeah, you should be good then. LOL! All that guy is left with is a Calip

[troyboy162]

I took another few hours and got rid of the spacers. I also worked the bottom flange of the d holes of the rim. I wasn't happy about that but it minimal material on the rim and saves taking a lot off the caliper in a spot I wasnt confident on how deep was safe. Without the spacers is quite a bit more material, but I feel its still safe due to the pictures I've seen. http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/IMG_20140217_170008_zpsfc5rfmlz.jpg (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/troyboy162/media/IMG_20140217_170008_zpsfc5rfmlz.jpg.html)

[Seanz0rz]

I did the same with my wheels. Remember my flat in Mojave? The spare had to self clearance on the caliper, but it wasn't much.

[troyboy162]

just a update but eaton beadlocks do not fit with any amount of grinding. The inner wheel tapers down to fast as shown in this picture next to my procomp rim.
144

[YotaFun]

That stinks, just curious I know you said you found the price of tires for 15" rims, cheaper, but whats the selection like?
I actually have had some of the crawler guys around here ask if I had a extra set of 16" rims for sale cause they are having troubles finding anything to fit a 15" rim anymore.

So I presume you are shooting for bead locks, I know price is a big factor but have to considered recentered military Humvee rims?
A buddy of mine is running them on his first gen and they are some awesome tires!

He kept the inner rubber, but cut it down so he could rub a lower pressure and get a more flexy tire.

[troyboy162]

selection is lower but still good in the 35" range. duratacs, MTR, KM2, BFG AT...all the usual tires are available, just not some of smaller brands. FYI I bought 4 MTR's at $200 each. I dont get many miles out of tires since they get abused. Saving 80-90 per tire should be helpful over the next few years.

I've looked into humvee rims, but the whole set up is heavy. You have to run the military take offs or you are stuck with expensive tires. the military tires are a nice shape but fairly heavy for their size. I figure heavy wheel/tire set ups will mean more broken axles.

Beadlocks are on hold...Without a cheap pre-made solution I have to weld my own. I cannot justify the time spent on getting that right. I'n reality Ive only blown one bead in 5 years, but I was looking forward to the piece of mind.

[troyboy162]

just looked up some weights on the other cheap tire route of 16.5" humvee rims and tires...146 LBS for a rim and tire combo. Of course thats a strong tire on a great double bead locked rim. I dont think I have the truck to use those without adding too much stress to the old girl. with 15" rims I'd be hard pressed to hit 100 lbs I'd imagine.

[YotaFun]

I'm curious, what is your driveline situation?

Auto or manual, Stock case, regear diffs?

A buddy of mine has been running the recenter rims with tires on his IFS 1st gen for now.
22re, Manual, Dual Cases, 5.29 gears locked f/r.
He does surprisingly well down the highway (had trouble in the Runner keeping up with him at 75mph!) and awesome off road, he is currently doing a SAS (ifs was great an all but he got a deal on a SFA out of an 80 series).

I like the idea of a heavier weight rim/tire combo, I feel that helps keep the truck rubber side down

[troyboy162]

I'm auto so I have been putting off the duals for as long as I can. How long has your buddy been running that tire wheel combo? I'd sure like to run that set up some day. I priced out a set with the fancy pvc inserts once....but abandoned it when I figured out the weight. I think fitting them wouldnt be too horrible.

[Kryptoroxx]

I can put my opinion in on the Hummer wheel setup. Really strong rims and tires and if you are close enough to a base that sells the old tires (but not used) you can get them for about 100 ea built. I will say they are heavier than hell though. Takes a lot to heave them around.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

[Seanz0rz]

I think they are just too heavy for our vehicles. I guess you could move down a brake size, but I wouldn't recommend that either.

I didn't think that the weld on bead locks were that hard to assemble. What set were you looking at?

[troyboy162]

Brakes are a hard topic. I dont need heavy braking for offroad, but at 35" I dont think the stock brakes can lock up anymore on the pavement. My truck still drives to on the highways up to 6 hours at a time, so I figured grinding was the best option. The Eaton bead locks might not even work with the Tacoma 15" brake components.

The weld on bead locks would be quite a chore i'd think. I figure a day to weld up and a half day to assemble with a couple weeks of chasing pin hole leaks lol. I wanted that extra bead security, but will revisit it next time I pop a bead off. Hopefully I stay on my once every 5 years frequency lol. I wanted some 3/16 modest rings for weight savings and the fact that my truck will never beat a wheel like a hammers buggy. all the The weld on options will be a bit heavier then the eatons, but also stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=136Jvrf1j_M

[Seanz0rz]

knock on wood, but I've never blown a bead. I also don't go super low pressure either.

I know the price is not low, but what about an internal beadlock?
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Wheels/STAUN-II-Internal-Beadlock-15-Inch-Set-of-4.aspx?t_c=11&t_s=107&t_pt=100684&t_pn=STNCEB15710-4

Spendy, but an option I suppose.

[troyboy162]

I researched those once and they didnt seem fool proof. The price isnt horrible considering they are reusable and are a sudo inside and outside bead lock. I cant remember why they haven't taken off in popularity, but I think I remember there were a few short comings. One of course is its only a few PSI holding the bead vs mechanically clamping the bead.
I'll test a set out when Stuans send me some :)

[troyboy162]

oh and also I have procomp 98 wheels coming. They are the new version of the 97 wheels. I expect they will fit the same as my series 51 test wheel in that they will require grinding. the 98 may possibly require less grinding since the series 51 is documented as not even fitting in the 16" flavor without a spacer.

Its all in how they taper. There will always be some grinding on a 15" 3.75 BS steel wheel over 16" 4runner brakes. There is no magical rim out there that will fit because I am grinding to fit the area where the inside bead is. That is a spot that will remain constant regardless of taper/design/materials. There is confusion out there since tacomas came with smaller (then ours) calipers and 16" rims until 2001ish. I have no idea how that works out for them, but our 16" caliper is the same from 1996 till 2002.

[Seanz0rz]

What's the plan for the 16's you bought from me? I'm looking around at alloys again, I think I've had it with my steel wheels. I'm still trying to track down that vibration.

[troyboy162]

I'm going to try to sell them as a mounted 35" set. The front tires arent worth much but I figure all together I can get something for it. You are welcome to come try them out for a day or something to see if its your tire/rims giving problems. It may be a long time before the 15" are mounted though.

[Seanz0rz]

Thanks! It will probably be a long time until I get around to looking into it.

[YotaFun]

I'm auto so I have been putting off the duals for as long as I can. How long has your buddy been running that tire wheel combo? I'd sure like to run that set up some day. I priced out a set with the fancy pvc inserts once....but abandoned it when I figured out the weight. I think fitting them wouldnt be too horrible.

3 years now,
He started with the 37" military MTR but the sidewalls were just too weak, he cut that 10 min into the trails...
Then he went with a worn pair of 37" pitbulls and they did fine.
We just mounted a new set of 36" Super Swampper TSL Bias Ply, these are going to be his lightest set up, but honestly don't know how they will fair on the IFS since we started to remove it the same weekend lol.


I think they are just too heavy for our vehicles. I guess you could move down a brake size, but I wouldn't recommend that either.

You think so Sean? Honestly when we were bolting the tires back on the axle they felt lighter then my 33s on 16" alloy wheels.


What's the plan for the 16's you bought from me? I'm looking around at alloys again, I think I've had it with my steel wheels. I'm still trying to track down that vibration.

OT what makes you think its the rim? have they ever been bent out of place before? Also Are you still Running the same tires the you had when I saw you when I visited Cali? I know your truck doesn't sit as much as mine but have you considered yet a possible flat spot or shifted belt?

[troyboy162]

Edited whole post. Just another link showing a similar amount of material removed from a stock 4runner brake and some comparisons to a tundra casting
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/1042412-tundra-brakes-perhaps-15-wheels.html

Stock 4runner calipers modded (Not mine):
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/attachments/3rd-gen-t4rs/57213d1328123877-tundra-brake-upgrade-just-one-quick-question-20120201_131043.jpg
http://carphotos2.cardomain.com/images/0015/39/10/15569301_large.jpg

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/107383-tundra-brake-upgrade-just-one-quick-question.html
13wl tundra
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/fen/C9950/6/image/4/
13wm 4runner
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/additional-prod-images/en/US/fen/C9393/6/image/4/

[troyboy162]

More pics from a 97 4runner with 16 calipers. I get nervous every so often and go find more pics lol. Again...I'm safe
http://www.yotatech.com/f200/1997-4runner-sr5-2wd-buildup-231846/#post51684631

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Calipers1.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Caliper6.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Calipers2.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Caliper5.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Caliper3.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i391/traxxi2003/Caliper4.jpg

[troyboy162]

The procomp 98's never happened since the place I got my beadlocks from gave me a full refund minus shipping costs. Thats pretty damn nice and I'll keep them in mind in the future. I'm eyeballing wheelers 15" rims now. They are about $10 more per rim then procomp, but they have a few design features that should let them fit easier. They already fit a tacoma where most 15" require spacers or grinding to fit. The most desirable backspacing they have is only 4" though so that means the inner bead area will slid a 1/4" further onto the caliper...Going to have to think that over a bit.

In this picture you can see both the lack of flair on the spoke holes and the very shallow taper from the inner bead to the middle of the rim. I'll email them soon with specs of the procomp rim for comparison.
these are the 15x8 with 4.5" BS
187

[troyboy162]

ugh lol I am going to end up taking the caliper apart and seeing how much meat there is in the casting.I will take a bunch of pics to document it. Also the 4" of the Wheelers rims backspacing probably wont be enough once I run the wider MTR tires on there extra tall sidewalls. The good news is that brings me to the cheap procomps again that I already know I can make work.

[Seanz0rz]

Guessing wheel spacers are out of the running?

[troyboy162]

Id like to get rid of spacers on the front. The 35" MTR tires will need about .5 inches of spacer on a stock wheel just to clear the spindle arm. .75-1" of spacer would be ideal due to carcase flex (15" variety will have even more flex then I am used to). The good news is the procomp steel rims with their 3.75" back spacing put me right where I need to be. I already know I can shave the caliper to fit those as well since I've done it on one side. Wheelers rims with .25 ghetto spacers would be about the same, but I wouldn't have to shave the spokes at all.

So the choices are:
-Procomp 51 that I know I can fit and should give me exactly the right clearance on the spindle.
-Procomp 98 that should fit and might possibly need less work on the spokes
-Wheelers that I know I can fit even easier as long as I use a .25 ghetto spacer and extended thread lug nuts
- or lastly wheelers with no spacer that will be more meat ground off the caliper (possibly not a big deal), but also possibly a bit close to the spindle arm with the wide MTR tires.

I am ordering more procomp type 51 rims because I dont want to try a type 98 and find I cant fit them for some unknown reason. In reality the type 98 should be the same if not a little easier due to the spoke construction, but I'm done with the guessing lol. I am also going to disassemble one caliper to make sure the internal passages have not been compromised. there is a o-ring in there that will hopefully be ok to resuse. There is no re-build kit for our calipers that I can find. I was going to wing it on pictures alone and then I thought about loosing brakes in some of the stupid situations I put my truck in lol.

I will try to document this as best as I can since I assume I will find evidence that the calipers are more then safe after the grind. I hope that will be a big help to some other idiot like me who shaves their calipers for cheaper tires lol.

[troyboy162]

ok I took the caliper apart today and as a side note autozone can special order a rebuid kit for $9. The kit does not have the rubber orings that go between the castings though and thats the only thing I really wanted lol.

These images are kinda hard to see. I stuck a spray bottle tube into the passages so you can see what direction they go. unfortunately off all the tubes I could find, the only clean one was see though lol. The diagonal passages dive down fast into the casting to meet the pistons. the horizontal passage where the bleed valve is also in a picture. There is lots of meat in the areas that were grinded. More then enough to be safe. The area where the spokes hit is only about 8mm thick after the grind. this is thinner then I expected, but still more then enough.

So the experiment is a success. The calipers are intact and structurally sound. The only negative is mass was removed from the only thing the brake relies upon for cooling. The negative effect would be hard to imagine being even measurable in a under powered poor handling truck. Its not like I dive this thing into corners like a sports car or something.

This hole seen in the middle of the piston cavity is drilled at an angle to meet a twin hole drilled down in the other cavity. This means that no grinding should be done on the corresponding outside of this area. Its likely to be be pretty thin already even without grinding.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_142541_zpsyv08b9wc.jpg

The light scoring marks in the paint represent measurements of the piston cavity. This is the best I could do to take an educated guess at 8mm thick right here. I think it was a good idea I ground the spokes of the wheel too so I didnt have to take even more from this area.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/b04cab08-7504-4bf5-a0c3-b8338c392832_zps6c472997.jpg

Kind of a bad angles but you can see how these passages dive down into the caliper fast and away from the surface.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_134944_zpsn8itjfct.jpg
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_134910_zps5d0qndoz.jpg

just an overshots so you can see how close the passage is to the outside. The black cirles around the passages are rubber seals.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_135029_zpsnk1tn0ro.jpg
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_132414074_HDR_zpsogmj0ude.jpg
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_132407176_zps0cj2h1je.jpg

best angle showing how fast the diagonal passages dive down
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_132326519_zpsn8cc9ur1.jpg

the one horizontal passage coming from the bleed port. The threads of the blead port are large in diameter then the fluid passage but the threaded area carries no preasure.
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww234/troyboy162/long%20travel/IMG_20140814_132235344_zps9k827gyx.jpg