Help me solve my awful vibration!

[Seanz0rz]

So, as discussed in a few other threads, I have a horrible vibration in the truck at 40mph+. It feels like a front end vibration, as it comes through the steering wheel quite badly. The vibration period is sinusoidal; about 40 seconds of vibration, increasing to a max then decreasing to 20 seconds of no vibration.

Here is where I am at as of now:

It doesn't feel like an out of balance tire: I did the airsoft mod, and can feel when they are not working, feels like an egg for a tire, this is not the same vibration I'm complaining about.

Welded the steering column, and it solved most of the clunking in the column. Still need to shim the ball, but it is not bad except for when the vibration happens

Bushings (control arms and steering rack), ball joints were replaced in 08? They feel good, but will recheck soon.

Wheel bearings replaced in 09 or 10

No front sway bar

Inner and outer tie rod ends replaced ~1 year ago and did not help.

Alignment is incorrect on left side. Will correct next week.

Nothing appears to be bent, cracked, loose, etc. It will get a complete check soon.



Here is my short list of what I think it might be:
Bad tire/wheel
The aforementioned bad alignment
Steering rack bushings
Steering rack
Worn out control arm bushing or balljoint
Cracked frame
Out of balance half shaft

Plans:
Fix bad alignment
Rotate front tires to rear
check everything else for play, wear, etc.


Tires were replaced 2 years ago. I have had this vibration longer than the tires. In fact, I can't remember a time when I didn't have it, but I know it wasn't always there.

I'll try to get some video of the vibration too.

[Kryptoroxx]

Steering Rack has my vote since it seems like it increases for a time and then goes away. Sounds like the slow swaying of your truck from side to side in the steering and one (or both) sides cause vibration. This could also be amplified by bad alignment which would help pull your truck one way or another....and then cause the power steering to work more?

Kinda feels like left field but it's a theory.

[Seanz0rz]

Possible. I didn't feel any play on the rack last I checked.

[Robinhood4x4]

The vibration period is sinusoidal; about 40 seconds of vibration, increasing to a max then decreasing to 20 seconds of no vibration.


So there's a beat frequency on top of the vibration you're feeling? That means there is more than one frequency superimposing themselves, meaning there is more than one source. The beat period is long at about 1 minute which also means the two sources are close in frequency.

You had the vibration before the BB's, but were you getting the beating before you did the BBs?

[Seanz0rz]

I'm not sure if it did before or not. Years ago I decided I would live with it, but it's getting worse and starting to irritate me. While my dad was riding along, he was pretty shocked it was that bad, but that trip is the worst its been. The last trip we did was about 27 miles one way, and wasn't as bad with a less full truck, just my wife, me, and the tools.

The harmonics are strange. Makes me think wheel bearing or something like that. Its definitely a spinning part vibrating and being transmitted through the wheel. Don't have it at slow speeds. Also, rough roads make it better. I know the dynamic balancing requires rough road to evenly distribute the media, but again, it doesn't feel like a tire balance issue, almost like the frequency is too high for the speed the tire is going

Hopefully some of that made sense, typing on a tablet sucks.

[L33T35T Tacoma]

What tires are you running? size? How many miles are on them?

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I strongly disagree with the BBs. Any time you have a moving object inside a tire, centrifugal force will push that weight to the physically accessible outermost region. Centripetal force (the tire) will hold it there. Who is to say that point is exactly where the tire's imbalance is? Additionally, who's the say the weight of the BBS are the exact amount of weight needed to counteract the imbalance in the tire and wheel.

I've worked in my tire shop for 10 years and I've seen a lot of imbalanced tires. Are your tires currently balanced by a professional? If they were, I'd bet money that the tire tech finally gave up because the BBs kept throwing off his machine. I've had it happen at my shop many times before... a tire had fix-a-flat in it (which would behave the same as a round BB) and it was impossible to balance because every time the machine spun the water settled in a different location. How many different locations are wheel weights placed on your wheels? One? Two? Three? If only one, they balanced your wheels using the static function. The static method is pretty terrible and only corrects side to side shimmy OR wheel hop. If there are wheel weights in two locations on two separate planes, then the wheels are balanced dynamically, which is supposed to correct both side to side shimmy and wheel hop. The BBs, if the concept actually was working, will only fix the wheel hop. This is the imbalance that a driver feels most frequently. The side to side shimmy is also a problem, but the BBs wouldn't do anything for this.

Additionally, ANY sort of uneven wear will cause road noise and vibration in which no balance method could possibly fix.

Now... you mentioned the phasing of the vibration. In the world of physics, as applied to sound waves, this is known as beats but has the same principles. I copied this from a physics essay I wrote about a year ago


Beats occurs when two tones of slightly different frequencies are heard simultaneously and periodic increases and decreases in the loudness is heard. This is because there are periods of constructive interference and destructive interference.

Obviously it is rotational, so I would probably guess it's a half-shaft imbalance phasing with your tire imbalance. As mentioned by a previous poster, the frequencies are slightly different so you are experiencing phases of vibration similar to sound wave "beats." Here's something fun you could try... Rotate your tires 180 degrees on the hub. This will place any potential immobile vibration in the tire 180 degrees from the current half-shaft vibration. See if the phasing and overall vibration changes. If it does, move it 60 (we can't do 90 because of 6 lug nuts not being square), and see if this changes anything, better or worse. Try it again for another 60. Trial and error, see if this changes anything. Do it for all locations, starting with the front. Find the best of the best if it is having any effect.

Have you tried putting a set of OEM size street tires on OEM wheels in order to eliminate the tire variable?

[Seanz0rz]

I know you are skeptical of the BB's. They are obviously selling a product, but they explain how it works pretty well: http://www.innovativebalancing.com/index.php

The vibration was present immediately after a balance by a reputable shop, before the insertion of the BB's. It's pretty much been there all the time, even with new tires. Which leads me to suspect the wheel or some other part, and not the tire.

At the time I changed my bushings, the truck felt great for 50-100 miles. Then the vibration started again.

Prior to their removal (by me and by rocks) the wheel weights were only on the inside rim, not the outside.

Tires are 285/75r16 BFG AT. These tires are 2 years old (almost to the day), but the vibration was present before the new tires went on, and came back almost immediately after new tires.

I don't have a set of OEM tires and wheels to swap on, but I will work on tracking a set down to try.

I'll try the clocking of the wheel, and see if it improves.

I think I will attach my gopro to the fender and film the tires, see if I can get any clue from that.

[Robinhood4x4]

I don't think it's the half shafts because they're just too small in diameter to cause much vibration plus I don't think you'd feel it through the steering wheel.

Here's a shot in the dark but might be worth a try. There are some apps that record vibration like iseismometer and seismometer and sends the data as a csv. If you can get some good data you can find the frequency of the vibration which might point you toward the source. For example, if it's a once per rev of the tire, then you can rule out the drive shaft. If it's not a once per rev of the tire, you can rule out the tires and CV's. Send me the data and I can take a look.

[Seanz0rz]

Haven't driven much to be able to report back with video, etc.

More details:
Gets worse when I take my foot off the gas. For a moment anyway.

Oscillation is much much less with nothing in the truck

Could bad u joints cause this? I'm thinking of replacing them anyway when I have the rear axle out

Also have some clunking towards the rear axle when turning.

[4x4mike]

I'm wondering if it could be rear link bushings? They'll ride in different positions depending on the amount of gear you have in the back. They also put up with holding and axle that has rotational forces from the drive shaft.

Why are you taking the rear axle out? If so check the link mounts, perhaps one could be bent or cracked.

Does it still feel like a front end vibration? Or has it moved?

[Seanz0rz]

It manifests itself through the steering wheel, which is why I consider it a front end issue.

Removing axle shaft to replace the third member studs and reseal it.

[4x4mike]

Gotcha. Definitely easier to do with the entire housing pulled.

I used factory Toyota studs but I think it was Marlin or TG that made the studs that thread in from the inside. If I pulled mine I would use those as I think at least two of my studs spin. I have a very slight leak that doesn't drip but after 6 months leaves a little damp spot. I can't tighten the studs near it, because they spin, and nothing I've put in the sealing area seems to stop it. It's not enough to bother me or pull out anything but I think about it every so often.

Another thing I'd do as long as I was draining it is to replace the plug with the hex key type. I've mangled mine and I like the protected hex type. I'd also buy a second as a spare. Recently on someones trip report they lost a factory plug on the trail. They think hitting on a rock just right loosened it up. Loosing fluid is one thing but the plug somewhere along the way would suck. The too buy list for spares is getting longer the more time I spend on the internet.

[Seanz0rz]

I have new factory studs. They come with some preapplied thread sealer, and none of them are stripped to my knowledge.

When I did the elocker retrofit, I didn't get the long studs tapped straight, so removing the third is a nightmare.

[4x4mike]

I used the ones with the sealer as well. The problem I have is that the stud spins and thus the nut won't tighten. My threaded holes aren't stripped. The ones I mentioned have a head on them and when you tighten the nut it pulls up on the already bottomed out stud.

[Kryptoroxx]

Haven't driven much to be able to report back with video, etc.

More details:
Gets worse when I take my foot off the gas. For a moment anyway.

Oscillation is much much less with nothing in the truck

Could bad u joints cause this? I'm thinking of replacing them anyway when I have the rear axle out

Also have some clunking towards the rear axle when turning.


I'm wondering if it could be rear link bushings? They'll ride in different positions depending on the amount of gear you have in the back. They also put up with holding and axle that has rotational forces from the drive shaft.

Why are you taking the rear axle out? If so check the link mounts, perhaps one could be bent or cracked.

Does it still feel like a front end vibration? Or has it moved?

That clunking really validates 4x4mike's idea. It could also be that one of the link ends has separated. That would be harder to spot. I was crawling all over the underside of my truck yesterday and everything that is rubber has suffered in the desert. Found all kinds of damage that up close you can see but from a few feet away looks just fine.

[Seanz0rz]

I'll move discussion back to this thread.

It was suggested to remove the rear drive shaft and see if that is the source of my vibration.

I removed the dshaft and took it on some higher speed surface streets (55-60 mph). I noticed a reduction, but not an elimination of the vibration. It feels better.

I did have a thought towards the end of the run, and slipped the transmission into neutral. The vibration was back. I think this narrows it to the front 2 wheels.

I also noted that I need new front shocks. Under acceleration, any significant bump in the road would cause the wheels to chirp, telling me the shocks are not doing their job of keeping the wheels and road connected to one another. I pretty well knew this anyway. I think the dead shocks are one reason this vibration is getting worse.

The experience of having the 4Runner as FWD was horrible! The steering wheel doesn't return to center after a turn, it torque steers like a 250 hp fwd car, and you really notice the difference between RWD and FWD. I didn't think it was going to be so noticeable.


Next step is to rotate in the spare tire. I'll start with the front right.

Clunking has been narrowed down to the air bags and spacers moving around. I don't have the energy to remove them.

[Seanz0rz]

put the dshaft back in and I'm going to take it for the same loop. see how it does. that way I have a good comparison in my head.

With the vibe being gone when the front wheels are under power, maybe it has something to do with the bearings.

[Seanz0rz]

I want to say that the rear drive shaft is not the cause. The vibration is worse with it installed, but I think that is more due to the front wheels being free than any imbalance in the shaft or play in the joints (they all felt pretty good). I'm just not sure.

[Kryptoroxx]

Could it be play in the output shafts of the tcase? Just an odd thought. It might help explain why the vibration was worse when you put the rear shaft back in.

I think the wheel bearings are worth checking out though.



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[Seanz0rz]

Only thing I felt was backlash in the gears. No play in or out or radially.

[troyboy162]

I have shocks sitting in my garage you can try out if you want. I'd think they would only mask the issue like you were saying though.

[Seanz0rz]

Yeah, I am waiting for the shocks to go on sale again. Like you said, they only mask the problem though. I will also need new top mounts, my rubber is shot.

If I have time tomorrow after work, I will pull a tire and swap it with the spare, also check the wheel play, etc.

[04 Rocko Taco]

Could your driveshaft be out of phase? How often have you had it out?
Try flipping it at the flanges 180* and try again. One end at a time.
Fixed a nasty vibration on my '84.

[Seanz0rz]

Only two or three times. Once to swap in the elocker, once to fix the seal on the third and maybe one other time I'm forgetting.

To me, the drive shaft should be balanced and the flanges on either end should be balanced. In other words they do not rely on one another for balance and counter balance.

I'm going to go for another alignment this week or weekend. Maybe they won't screw it up this time.

[04 Rocko Taco]

To me, the drive shaft should be balanced and the flanges on either end should be balanced. In other words they do not rely on one another for balance and counter balance.

I agree with you, and it seems to usually be the case, but I have (personally) had experiences where it was NOT the case.

[CJM]

I had the vibration for eons kept working on it if you recall. In the end it was multiple things that contributed to it. Out of round drums and rotors worn motor and trans mounts bad axle shaft (big culprit) and worn a arm bushings. It still vibrates a little and IMHO it's due to it being an old truck with a lot of miles and who knows what else is worn.

New axle fixed most of its gone

[Seanz0rz]

Yeah I have looked through your thread for inspiration.

We'll see what the wheels and tires bring me.

[Seanz0rz]

Lance solved my problem!!!! Thanks Lance!!!!!!

[troyboy162]

did you have 5 bad tire/rim combos?

[Seanz0rz]

I know I have at least two bent wheels. (or at least I suspect since the vibe is always felt through the steering wheel, even when rotating front to back) I am not in the mood to play musical rims to find out which two, or even one. I am happy to rid myself of them.

I know going to stock alloys solves the vibe, so I will look for some of my own. I was never super thrilled with those wheels to begin with. I'll have my current tires swapped over to new rims and properly balanced. If I still have a vibe at that point, then I know it's a tire and I will replace accordingly.

[L33T35T Tacoma]

Glad that worked out! Get on Craigslist and a find a set of 16" alloys and be done with it! Don't forget the flange type lug nuts.

[CJM]

At least ya found the issue. Easier to solve than mine was lol..

[Seanz0rz]

Still have my lug nuts from my stock set. I'm looking for some from a 4th gen or fjc.

Also wondering about lug centric vs hub centric. Wheels I have now are lug centric (acorn type lugs). I'm just not sure it would make a difference since I always torqued them properly.

[L33T35T Tacoma]

That lug/hub centric thing has been debated for years. Are you using wheel spacers? if so, which ones? Do they have a flange on them or are they completely flat where the studs protrude? I have a set of All-pro spacers from my old Tacoma that I took off because they were causing vibration. They are hub-centric (no flange) and the wheels were supposedly lug-centric. I installed longer studs up front and put the SpiderTrax in. That fixed the vibration I was having. I'm scared to put spacers on now because of all the bearing issues I've heard of with 2nd gen Tacomas being very sensitive to that stuff.

Which FJC wheels are you looking at? Get the Anthracite ones!

[paddlenbike]

Glad you guys got it figured it! Some OEM alloys would look really nice on your truck. I'm using 3/4" hub centric spacers on mine and don't have any vibrations.

[Kryptoroxx]

Hey cool! Been busy at work but glad that you figured everything out as well. At least it was something simple

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[YotaFun]

Glad you got it figured out! Keep your eyes peeled on craigslist, there are deals to be had, I got my 5 stars, Ivan Stewarts, and LC rims for 100 each....

[Seanz0rz]

No spacers, although I will have to get some to clear the UCA with the 285s. Either that or get some aftermarket UCAs. I think that might be the better option.

[YotaFun]

Sean, I love my AllPro Upper A-arms.
I know you do more expedition style wheeling but the flex out of the all-pros is awesome, and it does wonders to help bring alignment back into spec.
Those pair with my adjustable coilovers gives the truck nice road manners as well.

[Seanz0rz]

500 is pretty steep for me right now, especially after whatever the wheels cost me. I might just shave my current ones.

[YotaFun]

Yeah, I was lucky enough to get mine off a bud who Tacoma got bought back, I'm sure if you keep your eyes peeled something will show up.

[Seanz0rz]

If I can find a used set, I will pick those up. Otherwise, I might try to find a donor set of upper arms to swap in while I mod mine (the bushings are only 5 or so years old in mine)

[paddlenbike]

http://stockton.craigslist.org/pts/4572389467.html

Found some Sequoia wheels for sale on cl. I like the look of them and they are 7.5" wide rather than the Tacoma/4Runner wheel width of 7".

[Seanz0rz]

I love those wheels, but they are 17's though :( I don't have the cash for new tires, so I will be pulling my set of 285/75r16s to a new set of wheels. If the vibe comes back I will start the process of elimination to find the bad tire(s) and replace accordingly. Wish it was in the cards but it's not.

What spacers do you have? Looks like spidertrax and allpro are out of stock of the hub centric spacers.

[Kryptoroxx]

There are snowflakes for sale in the area too. They look pretty decent on a 4runner imo. Also they are 16". I can't remember if they clear the tbu though.

http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/pts/4568510643.html
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[Seanz0rz]

Wheels secured. Spacers on their way. Next will be mounting and balancing, alignment, and then I might paint them, we'll see.

[troyboy162]

woohoo!! Glad its all done with. Are you going to try the bead balancing this time?

[Seanz0rz]

I am going to see if they balance out on the machine ok. Only reason I went to the beads was an attempt to solve the vibration (and to keep me from having to go to get them rebalanced every time I lose a weight). I think since the vibration was side to side, there was never any chance of balancing it out. Also explains some of the alignments I got in the past...

[Seanz0rz]

Wheel spacers (spidertrax) are on and the truck is currently having the tires swapped. I'll report back probably Monday afternoon on the results after I get to drive it on the freeway.

I only did spacers on the front. I will eventually do them on the rear to match. I will also be doing an alignment very soon.

[Seanz0rz]

So my vibration is officially gone. I still have a little bit but I will chock that up to offroad tires and some other factors. It is 99% improved.

Pulled the wheels today and checked the wheel spacers. They were still tight. I would like a couple more exposed threads on the lugs, but they are fine.

I'll toss up pictures when I get a chance. I am really happy with this setup now, and now I can focus on some other issues that need tending to, like the front struts and alignment. . (I'd like to have those replaced by Pismo).

[paddlenbike]

Congrats Sean, it's always nice to have resolution to an ongoing problem.

[slomatt]

Hi Sean, was replacing the tires the final fix? I'm still tracking down a vibration on mine, it's 75% better but I think the tires are the last component. Congrats on fixing yours!

- Matt

[Seanz0rz]

New wheels solved 99% of it. There is still a small vibe which I think might be due to my existing tires. I don't have the cash to buy a whole new set and these still have plenty of life left in them. Other causes of my vibration could be unbalanced axle half shafts, my new wheel spacers, as well as just having mildly aggressive tread on the tires. One of the wheels has about 1/3 of its circumference covered in wheel weights.

[DHC6twinotter]

Cool, glad to hear you have it mostly solved! I've got a slight vibration at 65 or so, which I think may be my tires.

[Good Times]

nice!

[Seanz0rz]

Owe ya one Lance! Big time!

[YotaFun]

One of the wheels has about 1/3 of its circumference covered in wheel weights.

Sounds about right, I have always had issues balancing BFG A/Ts or M/Ts new or used, I'd get them to balance though come hell or high water, I remember when I had my 35s, on rims was 2/3 of the way full with weights, but tell you what those 35s rode smoother then any of my 33s lol!!!

[Kryptoroxx]

I never really had a problem balancing my general a/t2 tires but I did have a slight issue with my Treadwrights. They were the metric size that measures out to a 34". Not one of them carried the same weight to balance. One had two weights and there was another that had eight lol. Great grip though. Might go for them again when the 4runner is done with the DD days.

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[Seanz0rz]

Spam? I'm not clicking that link...

[YotaFun]

You are correct, hit it in my e-mail link by accident on my phone -_-

[Robinhood4x4]

He's gone.