Toyota future drivetrain speculation thread

[DHC6twinotter]

Hey all,

I always like speculating about future Toyota possibilities, and I thought I'd post up this thread for any rumors or speculation.

Strong rumors so far:

Tundra:
-Due next year with a 3.5 TT V6 from the Lexus LS.
-Lots of talk about a hybrid option with the 3.5 TT V6.
-4 link coil sprung rear suspension.
-Looks like the 6.5' bed will be available with either a crew and/or crew max cab (yay!)

Land Cruiser:
-Due next year with a 3.5 TT V6 from Lexus LS
-Lots of talk about a hybrid option with the 3.5 TT V6
-Rumors have been back and forth about whether or not North America will see a new Land Cruiser.

4Runner and Sequoia due in 2023. Tacoma later, probably 2024 or 2025. No info on drivetrains.

My own speculation:

3.3L Diesel:
Rumors are Toyota is working on a new 3.3L V6 diesel. Most of the rumors point to this being a replacement for the 4.5L diesel V8, but I'm not sure I'm sold on that. I would not be surprised if this engine made it to the Tundra and 300 series Land Cruiser. In some markets, the Prado could also have this motor as a higher output option to the existing 2.8 I4 diesel. If the Prado does get this motor, perhaps Toyota could also offer it in the 6th gen 4Runner?

3.5L twin turbo V6:
It's pretty much all but confirmed that the next Tundra and Land Cruiser will have this engine as an option. I also wouldn't be surprised if the 6th gen 4Runner and 4th gen Tacoma get this motor in the TRD Pro (GR?) trim levels. The Sequoia and GX (if there is another one) would also offer this engine.

4.0 twin turbo V8
There have been rumors of Toyota working on a TT 4.0 V8 for the Lexus devision. If this is true, I'd like to see this motor in a GR Tundra to compete with the Raptor and TRX.

5.0 NA V8
There have been no rumors of a 5.0 V8, but I could see a potential naturally aspirated 5.0 V8 as a derivative of the TT 4.0 V8 for use in the Tundra. I think the Tundra really needs a NA V8 to compete with GM, Ford and RAM. A NA V8 could also be an option in the Land Cruiser, Sequoia, and LX. Rumors were that the 4.0 would share components with the new 2.0L dynamic force 4 cylinders engines, so perhaps a 5.0 V8 could share some components with the 2.5L dynamic force engines?

3.5 NA V6
I haven't heard a single rumor of a new V6, but I find it odd that the new Sienna has no V6 option. It's solely a hybrid 4 cylinder. I tend to think Toyota still needs a NA V6 for the Sienna, 4Runner, Highlander, Tacoma, RX, and maybe the larger Lexus/Toyota sedans. The GR motors are close to 20 years old, and while they are great motors, I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota is working on a replacement. Maybe this could be a NA version of the TT V6 found in the LS?

In short, I could see Toyota's future V6 and V8 engine lineup consolidated to the following:
-3.3L turbo diesel V6.
-3.5L twin turbo V6.
-3.5L naturally aspirated V6.
-4.0L twin turbo V8.
-5.0L naturally aspirated V8.

Just my $.02.

[DHC6twinotter]

And since this is a predominately 4Runner forum, here's what I could see for the 6th gen 4Runner:

SR5
-3.5L NA V6
-3.5L NA V6 Hybrid

Limited
-3.5L NA V6
-3.5L NA V6 Hybrid

Offroad
-3.5L NA V6
-3.5L NA V6 Hybrid
-3.3L turbo diesel V6 with optional manual tranny

GR (Replaces TRD-Pro)
-3.5L TT V6

There's probably a lot of wishing on my part there, but I tend to think that would make a pretty sweet lineup. A 3.3L diesel for the overlanding crowd, and TT V6 for the desert racing crowd. Then the Tacoma can follow with a similar option setup.

[paddlenbike]

I'd be a little surprised if there wasn't a turbo-4 option in there somewhere. The new full-size Silverado has one, the Wrangler, and heck even Porsche replaced their amazing 2.7 and 3.4L flat-6s with turbo-4s. (A new 4 cylinder 718 Cayman outperforms a flat-6 781 Cayman in every metric but the engine sound.) Toyota already has a 2.0 turbo 4 in the lineup used in the IS and NX line. Such an engine would help Toyota meet their CAFE standards and provide power and torque to meet the competition. A twin turbo V6 would really wake up the Toyota lineup. I think boosted power plants would help Toyota overcome it's long-standing underpowered reputation.

I have sort of lost hope in the brand when it comes to trucks/SUVs. They don't perform that well, don't get good mileage (it should at least have one of those), and the fun-to-drive factor just isn't there. I will put an exception in there, the 381 hp 5.7L Sequoias/Tundras do have satisfying power. At a minimum Toyota would have to do one of the following to get me out of my 4Runner:
- offer a diesel powertrain that can get the kind of mileage I get in my Sprinter van. I just went from Sac to Salt Point (north of Bodega Bay), 320 miles and got 27.2 MPG. It weighs 8,000 lbs and is over 9-feet tall. An SUV with a similar powertrain should get 30 MPG easy.
- offer more manual transmission options. I can easily say my SC 3.4 manual is more fun than any other SUV I've driven.
- Toyota--make a decent automatic, yours are so slushy and boring!!! 5-speed automatics in 2020? My parcel delivery van has had a 7-speed since 2014.

I think Toyota is doing a good job lately of listening to the customers and the market and I applaud their factory suspension options, available locker, crawl control, etc. They just need to fire all of their powertrain engineers and make something decent for once. The same company that made 2JZ-GTE twin turbo Supras is now turning to BMW to make engines for them (the new Supra). Come on.

[DHC6twinotter]

Your supercharger posts always make me want to add a supercharger to my 4Runner. Ha!

Turbo 4 might be a possibility. I hadn't thought of that. The Ranger and Bronco have a turbo 4 option as well. The AR engines have been out for 12 years now, and we are seeing the replacement now in the form of the M25A/B and A20A. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota is working on some new turbo 4s for their sedans, and maybe we'll get a turbo 4 in the SUVs as well. A turbo 4 hybrid might not be terrible.

I remember when the 2nd gen Tundra came out in 2007, and the specs looked awesome. I don't think anybody else was offering a V8 with nearly 400hp. Now, everybody has caught up. That seems to be the cycle with Toyota, and maybe that's part of the secret to their longevity. They develop a fantastic, reliable powertrain that is better than everybody else's, then they use that same powertrain for so long that everybody else catches up and surpasses it (maybe not in reliability though). Then, Toyota releases the next revolutionary powertrain, and the whole cycle continues.

I agree though, some of Toyota's truck lineup is getting old. I'm not sure why the Tundra doesn't have an 8 speed in it. The Land Cruiser has an 8 speed behind the 5.7, and that would've been nice in the Tundra. Toyota also made the A760 6 speed auto, which they used behind the 4.6 V8 in the GX, and I think the Tundra too. I never understood why Toyota did not put the 6 speed in the 4Runner back when they did the 2014 facelift.

As far as the 4Runner goes, the next one better be good. If the next 4Runner ends up being a dud, I may end up considering a Bronco, or, maybe, a V8 Jeep. I do really, really like the 200 series Land Cruisers though, so who knows, maybe I'll end up in a used one of those some day.

And I agree, the BMW Supra was dumb. They should've built it on the TNGA platform and used the V35A engine from the LS in it. From what I gather, that engine has way more potential than the 416hp or so that it currently puts out.

[Kryptoroxx]

If they dusted off the 3rz and 2tr and added a turbo they would perform well in every metric except fuel economy. Adding boost to them is a lot of fun but sadly the mpg doesn't add up. I'm sure toyots could fix that. They certainly know how to build a boosted engine but I am fairly certain they will pull it off.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

[paddlenbike]

Your supercharger posts always make me want to add a supercharger to my 4Runner. Ha!



Dan, the supercharger is SO worth the money. Here's some 0-60 numbers for you:
Stock 3rd gen - 9.2 seconds to 60 MPH source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2000-toyota-4runner-base-sr5-v6)
4th Gen V8 - 7.9 seconds source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2007-toyota-4runner-base-sr5-v8)
5th Gen - 7.9 seconds source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2019-toyota-4runner-base-trd-pro)
Supercharged 3rd gen - 6.4 seconds source (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-4runner-chevy-tahoe/)

0-60 doesn't tell half the story. An SC'd 3rd gen just absolutely flies up the grades at high elevation. While acceleration is great, it's really the passing power and mountain climbing that are most impressive.

I am not in the market for a vehicle, but if I were buying today it would likely be a Bronco with a manual. By comparison an automatic 4Runner would put me to sleep behind the wheel. I'm only interested in vehicles that offer a fun experience.

[DHC6twinotter]

Dan, the supercharger is SO worth the money. Here's some 0-60 numbers for you:
Stock 3rd gen - 9.2 seconds to 60 MPH source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2000-toyota-4runner-base-sr5-v6)
4th Gen V8 - 7.9 seconds source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2007-toyota-4runner-base-sr5-v8)
5th Gen - 7.9 seconds source (https://www.mycarspecs.com/car/2019-toyota-4runner-base-trd-pro)
Supercharged 3rd gen - 6.4 seconds source (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-4runner-chevy-tahoe/)


0-60 doesn't tell half the story. An SC'd 3rd gen just absolutely flies up the grades at high elevation. While acceleration is great, it's really the passing power and mountain climbing that are most impressive.

I am not in the market for a vehicle, but if I were buying today it would likely be a Bronco with a manual. By comparison an automatic 4Runner would put me to sleep behind the wheel. I'm only interested in vehicles that offer a fun experience.

Those supercharger numbers are impressive! If I found a good deal on one, I'd be pretty tempted to throw one on.

The new Bronco looks fantastic. If Ford ever offered the 7spd manual with the TT V6, I might be really tempted to buy one. Ford put a lot of thought into the Bronco, and it shows. The next 4Runner needs to be really, really good.

[fenrisx]

The 3.5l does seem like a safe bet for the 6th gen 4Runner, which would be disappointing. Just from a power to weight perspective, it would be nice to see something with a little more power. There's definitely a lot more competition out there for the 4Runner, hopefully that helps with the push for more power and efficiency. (Granted competition hasn't seemed to hurt their sales numbers just yet.)

Also add me to the list of those who wish they had got a supercharger on their 3.4l. :)

[Crinale]

I don't see Toyota doing anything particularly "fun" or "exciting" with the 6th gen 4Runner engine and transmission. They have seemed content to allow the 4runner to fall into the boring but utilitarian side of family vehicle with some off-road capability. I see the 3.5 and 6 speed from the Taco being added, which will likely be massively overgeared just like the Taco is currently where 6th gear is useless if you upsize tires over the stock 30" (With 33s I never see 6th unless I'm going downhill).

The 2GR can really be woken up with gears and an OV tune though, I just got the tune and it made my truck more fun to drive. Now I can't wait to get gears as it should really wake up the sleepy feel; it also fixes nearly every issue with the AC60 transmission. And if you want power, the magnussen S/C brings the 3.5 power level up to similar to stock 5.7 numbers.

As for the fullsize vehicles, definitely a turbo/TT 3.5, I don't see the 3.3 diesel coming to the US, and I would not be surprised to see some variation of hybrid drivetrain (whether I4 or V6) for the Limited models. I'd like to see an NA v8, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

As long as we're speculating, I hope Toyota has a team watching the Bronco launch intently, because that truck is what the FJ Cruiser should have been: removeable top, front and rear lockers, 35" tires, solid drivetrains, massive option catalog, and immediate aftermarket support.

[paddlenbike]

Here's my driveline speculation:

Ken's going to buy one of these:
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/2004-100-series-toyota-land-cruiser-001-1599583281.jpg

and put this under the hood:
https://blogmedia.dealerfire.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/512/2017/05/sprinter-engine_o.jpg
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284124380264?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=284124380264&targetid=1068323850470&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9032482&poi=&campaignid=11758020206&mkgroupid=111348621262&rlsatarget=pla-1068323850470&abcId=9300462&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7NKBBhDBARIsAHbXCB5E8y6sq1pN2TZLKNvV gzjPvf0BTv9L59U0inB_6pNwP_1TrRtiFtQaAl35EALw_wcB

I won't buy another 13-18 MPG gas SUV with 300 miles of range and yawn-inspiring performance.

Come on Toyota, step up.

[paddlenbike]

Toyota is highly unlikely to bring the diesel state-side, but I hope they at least offer us the twin turbo V6 in the 4Runner and Tacoma. Without it, the 4Runner won't compete with V8 Grand Cherokees and twin turbo Ford Broncos. Toyota hasn't offered an exciting powertrain since the factory SC'd 3.4 V6s. The 381 hp 5.7L V8 is the only exception but it was never available in compacts.

I need either really good fuel economy or really fantastic power. Ideally both.

[DHC6twinotter]

huh, I thought I replied to this thread earlier. Ken, I would love more excitement to the 4Runner line as well. Manual tranny would be a great start!

Some news on the Land Cruiser side of things.
Overseas spec 300 series land cruiser will have the 3.5TT V6, 3.3 turbo diesel (presumably V6), and the 4.0 1GR V6 will continue to be offered. The 3.5 TTV6 gets better mileage than the 4.0. Some trim levels will be offered with front and rear diff locks. Live rear axle and 6 lug wheels.

Here's the front end. I'm not a fan of the vents below the headlights, but on the plus side, it looks like the lower part of the bumper is one piece all the way across the front, which should make aftermarket bumpers look better. There is also a factory winch option.

Some good LC info here:
https://www.instagram.com/hamad1two3/

Rumors are there is a new Prado on the way within the next year or two, and the 2.7L 4 cylinder gas motor dropped in favor of the 2.5L Hybrid.

A new Lexus flagship CUV is rumored to be on the way, and engine is claimed to be a 4.0 TT V8 making 651hp. This is not a LX, but more of a SUV coupe thingy.

[paddlenbike]

I had a chance to check out the new Land Rover Defender. In short, I love it. The basic one starts a little below $50k, with a 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo with 296 hp and will tow over 7,700 lbs. It's amazing how much power they are getting out of 2.0 liters--more than V8 SUVs of yester-year with much better fuel economy and better performance. The 8-9 speed transmissions really help there. They also have a mild hybrid turbo inline-6 with 395 hp, but the price jumps up to $65k.

Add the rear locker ($1550), the panoramic roof with roof rails ($1800) and heated and cooled seats to the base model and it's around $56k. That's about the price of a TRD pro or a Wrangler Rubicon. Much different vehicle though...the LR is super comfy, lots of cool tech, but still has some off-road cred. I love the rubberized interior, the safari windows make it feel bright inside and the monitor-style rearview mirror allows you to see more than just the rear headrests. It's hard to describe, this vehicle is just "neat."

Honestly if I were in the market, this would be my rig. There just hasn't been anything made since the 3rd gen that does anything for me at all. TFL has had some bad luck (first one a CEL, replaced by a second vehicle but LR cut the wiring harness on a winch install) but the new Jaguar/LR powertrains seem to be better than they used to be--time will tell. It seems all modern vehicles are complex and have issues...I think it's just the reality of modern vehicles.

The new Grand Cherokee is coming out soon and I think these two (plus the Bronco) will be the competitors of the next-gen 4Runner.

[Crinale]

My problem with the new Defenders is the independent rear suspension. I don't care what else they do for "tech", without at least one live axle this truck just will not be able to go the places I like to go. As it is my IFS is a limit I dislike, and wish a company other than Jeep/FCA offered a solid front axle in something smaller than a fullsize. Also, the argument of the boring drivetrains keeping the 4runner from competing with the GC/Bronco/whatever has been around for years, and it's never stopped the 4runner from outselling all of them; modern 4Runner buyers don't seriously cross shop. I fully expect the 4runner to continue being boring and outselling its competition. The Prado/GX, however, might be more interesting as it has continued coming with the v8 option which may turn into that 3.5TT or similar.

[paddlenbike]

I had a chance to check out the new RAV4 Prime plug in hybrid. It's a 302 hp RAV4. The gas motor makes 179 hp and 199 ft lbs of torque, plus a front electric motor putting out 118 hp/149 tq and the rear one 53 hp/89 tq. 0-60 is 5.4 seconds. Toyota hasn't made anything this quick in a long time. By comparison the only other Toyota SUV that comes close is a supercharged 3rd gen that MotorTrend (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-4runner-chevy-tahoe/#ixzz3JLhImkSS) tested at 6.4 seconds, so wow.

The coolest thing is it has a battery that is 75% the size of my old Nissan Leaf and thus can drive 42 miles on all-electric. Most of my driving is within that range, so I could benefit highly from a drivetrain like this. The nice thing is the RAV can off-road and drive up to 85 MPH without engaging the gas motor. The old Prius Plug ins were limited to 62 MPH and were the bane of my existence for years when I had to follow Prius' in the carpool lane doing 61 MPH.

Will Toyota slip this powertrain in the 6th gen 4Runner? I am wondering. Land Rover, Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Audi, MB and Volvo are all stepping up with plug in hybrid SUVs. Lots of cool 4wd tricks can be done with separate motors, not to mention how cool it would be to go wheeling without running an engine.

[DHC6twinotter]

I had a chance to check out the new RAV4 Prime plug in hybrid. It's a 302 hp RAV4. The gas motor makes 179 hp and 199 ft lbs of torque, plus a front electric motor putting out 118 hp/149 tq and the rear one 53 hp/89 tq. 0-60 is 5.4 seconds. Toyota hasn't made anything this quick in a long time. By comparison the only other Toyota SUV that comes close is a supercharged 3rd gen that MotorTrend (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-4runner-chevy-tahoe/#ixzz3JLhImkSS) tested at 6.4 seconds, so wow.

The coolest thing is it has a battery that is 75% the size of my old Nissan Leaf and thus can drive 42 miles on all-electric. Most of my driving is within that range, so I could benefit highly from a drivetrain like this. The nice thing is the RAV can off-road and drive up to 85 MPH without engaging the gas motor. The old Prius Plug ins were limited to 62 MPH and were the bane of my existence for years when I had to follow Prius' in the carpool lane doing 61 MPH.

Will Toyota slip this powertrain in the 6th gen 4Runner? I am wondering. Land Rover, Ford, Mazda, Hyundai, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Audi, MB and Volvo are all stepping up with plug in hybrid SUVs. Lots of cool 4wd tricks can be done with separate motors, not to mention how cool it would be to go wheeling without running an engine.


The RAV4 Prime is really impressive. I'm not a huge fan of the RAV4 design, but the plug-in hybrid is a really nice option. My mom has a Ford C-MAX Energy, and she has about 20 miles of electric only range, which is enough for her to do her daily errands. She loves it.

Lexus just announced the new NX, and it has a four drivetrain options: 2.5, 2.0 hybrid, 2.0 plug-in hybrid, and 2.4 turbo. The plug-in hybrid is the same drivetrain as the RAV4 Prime, and the 2.4 turbo is an all-new motor that puts out 276hp. Maybe the 2.4 turbo and/or a turbo hybrid become options on the next Tacoma and 4Runner? Ford seems to think the 2.3 turbo works well for the Bronco and Ranger, and Toyota seems to have jumped on the forced induction bandwagon.

The 3.5TT V6 makes 409hp and 480 lb-ft torque in the Land Cruiser. The 3.3L turbo diesel makes 300hp and 530 lb-ft of torque. The diesel seems to have the turbo on top, but I'm not sure if it's a true hot-v or just a turbo placed on top like the Duramax. One source claimed it was a hot-v with sequential turbos.

I assume the Tundra power numbers will be the same, or very close. By comparison, the 3.5 EcoBoost in the F150 makes 400hp and 500 lb-ft torque (more in the Raptor).

The Tundra just got revealed today, so I suspect power numbers will come shortly.

[paddlenbike]

With the new Tundra finally unveiled, I'm starting to get excited about Toyota's new powertrain options. Up until now we've had naturally aspirated V6s and V8s with lackluster power and fuel economy. Oh and archaic 5-speed autos.

But now we have the RAV4 Prime powertrain that will be used in many future Toyotas and the new TT 3.5 in the Tundra looks very promising. If they put something like that in a 6th gen and the designers can keep themselves from making it ugly, oh man.

Toyota is releasing a ton of new models in the next three years. Should be exciting.