The Movie "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

[Texas Jim]

I think this is running on Showtime this month and it says a lot about our current situation with high gas prices and the foolish idea about hydrogen fuel cell cars. One of the most humorous parts to this subject is the way that the big banana GM was operating at the time. They had poured Billions into the project, and they also did there best to make sure it didn't survive.....??? I guess that could be a reason why GM is now the number 2 car builder in the world today!!! :tongueout:

Of course we all remember from when we were children what number 2 stands for!!! :rofl: TJ

[Trumpfan]

From what I remember from that movie Toyota was hardly innocent with their electric RAV4s.

[Texas Jim]

You are correct Trumpfan, Toyota was not completely innocent in the process. However Toyota didn't put the number of units on the road or spend the coin that GM did. TJ

[Markduce]

What is foolish about hydrogen? Let me quote the CEO of honda when asked about hydrogen.

"It is important to understand that hydrogen is not a fuel but a means of transporting energy in a manner that does not create a toxic waste product. In the future, I envision an electric car that runs off hydrogen gennerated by solar panels. So Dont compare hydrogen to oil. Compare sunlight to oil, and there, I think, is an excellent solution. "
http://automobiles.honda.com/images/future-cars/PopSciArticle.pdf

That was honda's CEO when being question about honda release of the FCX project expected to be on showroom floors next year.

Me. I think pure electric car is foolish thinking. Sure it will work for almost all of my driving. but I still need to be able to drive out of the range that electric car could go. So I would need a way to do a fast recharge on my car with in mins. I just dont see how they could do that with a car solo powered by a battery.

[oly884]

I don't think that works.

There is far from 100% energy transfer from sunlight to hydrogen. A lot is lost in the translation. There are several issues with the use of hydrogen as a fuel source. We are making headway, but the key issue is that we are unable to obtain more energy from hydrogen than is required to produce it.

That last issue right there is the key reason that hydrogen cannot (at least at this point) ever work as a source of energy used for transportation.

Clearly the CEO of a company that just produced a vehicle powered off of hydrogen isn't going to say that.

Just as a good reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

[oly884]

I'm also curious about what this movie said about battery production, and the logistics of owning electric vehicles. I haven't seen the movie yet and I'm wondering about it.

Clearly batteries are heavy and expensive. They use very harsh chemicals and need replacing. How does the movie address this? To me, the reason we don't have electric cars today is because of the current battery technology.

Electric vehicles, as they stand now, would only be good for "around the town" or short, with-in range, trips. The charge time of them, even if they made them a couple hours throws a wrench in the plans for any long distance driving. Who here is going to want to drive 200 miles then stop for 5+ hours while you're "fueling up"?

Hopefully the movie sheds some good light on this.

[Markduce]

The movie is a lot of movie people crying about losing a saturn. It has some good points. but some you just have to take with a grain of salt.

I am just not willing to shoot down hydrogen when nothing has been determain. And you get a feeling from part of the movie, that some don't like hydrogen only because the oil industry may start funding research into it. And afraid they might turn another profit. :tapedshut:

[oly884]

You make a great point. There are MASSES of people that won't support anything funded by the oil industries simply because it's funded by them. It's too bad that people feel this way, but in reality, the oil companies are the BEST people to go after this because of the funding and research they can provide.

I'd personally love to see hydrogen as the source of fuel. However, there are many logistical issues that come along with it. Now, I personally think the best means of going about making it, as of right now, is nuclear power for electrolysis and then when fusion reactors are able to be built, switch to them. Hopefully someday we'll both be able to see hydrogen become a viable source of energy.

[MTL_4runner]

I think solar has a definate niche, but I don't think it will be to create hydrogen (there's probably more efficient ways to do it).Sure you don't get 100% conversion, but that's not a surprise. You'd see the same thing with converting almost any power source (oil, coal nuclear, wind, waves, etc) into another form for use. It seems to me that the sun's energy is free and continues to arrive whether we harness it or not so building efficiency there would yield much larger long-term dividends. Most of the naysayers sound like a classic "we can't get there because we don't have the technology yet" broken record. In fact I'll bet you'll see the technology in solar panels following a version of Moore's law too (solar is nearing 25% efficiency now). Even Thomas Edison said, "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy" and he was no dummie.

Then there's the battery issue......
I mean lithium batteries used to be reserved for NASA but now they're a standard for cordless drills. So I don't think you can say that because the batteries have limitations now that they could never create a viablesystem for powering an automobile. We're also seeing recyclinng technology take hold so the issue of battery disposal is not nearly as bad as it has been in the past.

I'm not partial to hydrogen, ethanol, or purely electric vehicles per se, but I do think you should not discard any simply due to the fact that the technology doesn't exist yet to make it viable. If prices of gasoline continue to rise (or peak oil ever comes to pass) it will only accelerate the process and open new doors for energy prosperity.

[paddlenbike]

An all-electric car would not work for me, but I enjoy watching the progression of hybrid car technology. I really like the idea of the gas-electric Toyota Prius with lithium ion batteries. The extended battery capacity has the effect of increasing the fuel mileage, and the addition of a 110v outlet and the ability to charge your car in some parking lots pushes the economy over 100 mpg. The concept of driving your Prius home at night and plugging your house into the car and using it to power everything is just plain cool.

[MTL_4runner]

Here's an interesting idea on how to make Hydrogen on demand:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18700750/

Right now the only technology I'd go out and buy is a Hybrid, but in the future, I think we're going to have alot more choices to make. Cheap fuel cells would really cause a revolution because their weight and efficiency both make them much better than an IC engine......that would be the scenario which I could see an electric car surviving (perhaps with a supplimentary battery source for regenerative braking).

[Markduce]

Yeah, like a hydrogen hybrid. Regenerative braking I think is a short term answer for the short range issue hydrogen has right now.

[Texas Jim]

They said in the movie that the Ni-cad battery was giving the electric car a range of 300 miles. That was 2 years ago. I feel the problem with hydrogen right now is it's too volital plus the chamber that it is to be stored in had to be very sturdy. IE Challenger Space Shuttel, of course that was also 1980's technology, hopefully there are some viable alternatives to being tied to the stinking Arabes for oil and we can get the heck out of the middle east and let them all kill each other in the name of Alla.... TJ

[patrickryanb]

I did like the quote in the movie that stated electric cars can only suppport the needs of 90% of the population. I feel that in the correct situation the electric cars would be a great step in the right direction. If commuters in bigger cities had these cars or if they became more prevalent, that would ease the demand on foreign oil, thus reducing prices for all other petroleum run vehicles. I think everyone knows who calls the punches in the economy and in the government. The oil companies haven't built a new refinery in over 20 years. The GM company got the heat from big oil about the electric cars it was producing, and then pulled the plug. I think that a manufacture needs to come out and say screw the oil companies and offer a product like the electric car. Hydrogen vehicles are still many years off. The fuel is expensive, the car is expensive, its all quite expensive. Anyway my 2cents.
patrick

[MTL_4runner]

I finally got to see the movie and it was a good documentary IMHO. I really wasn't too bothered by it except for the part where all the car companies refused to sell the vehicles and took back each and every one only to needlessly crush them. That was just an outrageous waste of resources.....why would you further your losses by crushing these cars (esp GM who was already reeling back then from major blows by Toyota and Honda). They should have just let the people buy out the vehicles and spare themselves the bad press, but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

I think the one great result from having the foreign car companies surpassing their US counterparts is the fact that fear of getting out-lobbied during a period of rapidly changing legislation drove them to create the gas/electric hybrid vehicle segment in the first place. Now that those hybrids are becoming more viable and affordable on a daily basis, the next logcal step (as the film mentions) is to attach a charging system to the vehicles. So I come away from that film saying to myself no one really killed the electric car at all.....the general public just wasn't willing to change that fast and needed a bridge technology to be acceptable (ie only early adopters were leasing EVs). The electric car is not even close to dead, it's just in transition and my bet is that as gas prices at the pump climb, no oil company's efforts will be good enough to stop the progress at this stage of the game.

[Markduce]

I found it a waste yes, but it was their property. They can do as they please with them. That is why they never allowed people to buy them in the first place. And, im sure they dont want them out there for lawsuit, parts, and insurance reasons.

[Robinhood4x4]

FYI, here's GM's response:
http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html

[Good Times]

For those of you that have not watched this movie and live in the San Gabriel Valley area (Southern California), a free screening will be available by the City of South Pasadena as they will be holding their first ever Clean-Air Car Show & Film Festival. First screening will be at 11:00 AM at the Rialto Theatre on Fair Oaks and Oxley and the second screening will be at 3:30 PM. They're suppose to have some cool next-gen vehicles there on display (dunno the exact make and models) but that's what I've found so far. Looks like a big event so check it out (no affiliation).

If you guys are there, look for me as I plan to be there to catch the freebie movie (not sure what which screening I'll catch though!) Don't want to miss out on the action here so I gotta catch up and watch the freebie movie!

[Texas Jim]

FYI, here's GM's response:
http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html


After you read this you still think the movie's correct.

I also want to tell this guy "I have something, I want him to hold in his mouth!!" :lliar: TJ

[MTL_4runner]

It's ironic this documentary was made fairly recently because I just read in the paper that Nissan Motor Co is now looking to switch from using NiMH (nickel metal hydride) batteries (the 2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid uses NiMH technology licensed from Toyota) to using Li-ion (lithium ion and more specifically lithium polymer technology) batteries because they have a much higher power density. This switch is considered by CEO Carlos Ghosn to be a major competitive advantage. Here's the best part.....they said that the battery technology will be good enough to not only create some incredibly efficient hybrids, but to actually switch to making a truely viable electric car (unlike the prior failed attempts in the 90's due to low range constraints). They went on to say that Nissan will be doing field testing in Japan soon and are working on installing the charging infrastructure in cities needed to charge the fleet of several hundred test vehicles.

Sound familiar?

So has the electric car's time finally come now?

If the price of oil stays high like it is, my bet is that we're only talking about "when" not "if" they will come. History is filled with lots of great ideas were lost because they came before their time so hopefully we'll begin seeing these new electric vehicles with better ranges and hybrid vehicles (that also have charging capability) that will achieve truely impressive fuel economy at a reasonable price. Funny how history repeats itself like that.


Here's a little chart for you guys on power to weight ratio:

Type of Battery Power/weight
Lithium Polymer 3000 W/kg
Standard Li-ion 2000 W/kg
Typical NiMH 250-1000 W/kg <= this is what all the current Hybrid vehicles are using
Standard NiCad 150W/kg

Just to give you some idea of what this means I'll do the math out for everyone. First you need to know that 1 HP is equal to 750 watts or 0.75 kW of electrical power. Now if you take the Altima hybrid which has a 40HP (30 kW) of power and you're using NiMH, then those batteries are going to weigh roughly 30 KG or about 66 lbs. If you used Lithium polymer, the same power could be provided by just over 22 lbs of batteries. So lets assume now that you're willing to carry the same weight of batteries (30 KG or 66 lbs) that you had before when using NiMH. Now you've just gained an additional 80 HP (60 kW) bringing the total up to 120 HP (90 kW) of battery power!!!! So you can see how Lithium technology would spank the other technologies when properly developed and could finally result in a truely viable electric car.

[MTL_4runner]

I guess I should have kept reading before I finished my post above because another article I just read says that Toyota and Matsushita Electric have been working on a Li-ion battery pack to debut in the 2009 Toyota Prius. I guess a few other companies are working on the Li-ion technology for the hybrid market too including Toshiba and Hitachi electric. Sounds like we'll be seeing them arrive in the market around the 2010 timeframe. :clap:

[AxleIke]

Well, this is good. I liked that movie a lot.

FWIW, my brother actually works in the hydrogen fuel cell business. There website:

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/

Baisically Oly and others hit the nail mostly on the head. Fuel cell technology iss too expensive to be viable at this time, plus it is relatively inefficent.

As for fusison, it won't happen any time soon. People are spooked about nuclear energy, because of 3mile, and other accidents around the globe. People being spooked mean no support in congress, and that means no money for the research.

I would love an electric car. Doesn't matter if it doesn't have range, i'd use it to drive around town, go to the market, etc. Leave the truck for fun on the weekends.