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fustercluck
08-11-2007, 07:25 PM
The miracle of enlightenment is that even the smallest portion of it will slay darkness wherever it resides. For the record, Mr Burris is an ultra liberal news editor of the Journal Inquirer. Perhaps there is hope for us after all, albeit catastrophically tardy...






Time to admit the 'gun nuts' are right
By Keith C. Burris
08/03/2007
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In the aftermath of the Petit family slayings in Cheshire, we all reached for explanations: How do human beings sink this low? How could this tragedy have been prevented? Why?


There are so many nagging questions. They all need to be asked. And maybe some old arguments need to be hashed out again.

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Why not a more stringent "three strikes and you're out" law in this state? Connecticut's version is so weak that it's more like "30 strikes and we'll think about it while you strike again."

Why not speed up the criminal trial process for repeat violent offenders? Get them off the streets. It's been proposed many times. Most people agree it should be done. It never happens.

Can't we better monitor the probation process?

Can't we do a better job of predicting -- figuring out which non-violent criminals are about to turn violent?

Are home alarms really effective?

How about dogs?

But somehow all of these ideas pale before the barbarity of this particular crime.

That is why one old question is worth asking again. It is this: What if the Second Amendment is for real? Is it possible that it should it be revered, just like the First Amendment?

Sam Ervin said, "The Constitution should be taken like mountain whiskey -- undiluted and untaxed." Maybe that applies to all of the Constitution.

Is it possible that the Second Amendment is not a quaint and antiquated remnant of a world that will never return, but an idea as relevant and sound today as when it was written?

Is it possible that we are not talking about the right of the government to form a militia when there is no standing army, but the right of the individual to defend himself, or herself, against both tyranny and lawlessness? Maybe we are talking about the right of self-defense -- the right of the individual to take up arms against a government that wants to oppress, be it foreign or domestic. And the right of the individual to defend himself against criminals, brutes, and barbarians when local police seem unable to stop them.

Might the Second Amendment matter almost as much as the First?

I think the answer is yes.

And just like the First, the Second is practical, newly relevant, and far wiser than the watered-down alternatives.

I don't think George Bush wants to impose martial law on his fellow citizens. But he has diluted habeas corpus. And he has enlarged Big Brother. You have to stop and think about a government that wants to control the thoughts and behavior of its people.

Should such a government be permitted to disarm them as well?

And whereas the reform of the criminal justice system along some of the lines suggested above (a real "three strikes" law and faster trials for violent offenders) would not have saved the lives of Jennifer, and Hayley, and Michaela Petit, a gun might have.

I don't say it would have.

I say it might have.

Had Dr. William Petit had access to a gun and known how to use it, he might have been able to dispatch the two perpetrators, who were armed with only an air gun and ropes.

Moreover, the three victims here were women.

What if Mrs. Hawke-Petit had been trained in the use of firearms? Suppose she had been able to get to a gun after her husband was beaten into unconsciousness by the invaders? Or when she was forced to take one captor to the bank to fetch him money?

It's worth thinking about.

Women and children are now the major targets of predators in our society. Government is not protecting them very well. Many professional women who work in cities know this and take courses in self-defense. A gun may be the only realistic self-defense against the sort of criminals we are talking about here.

And if a few women took care of a few thugs in cases like this; if a few stories like this one ended in a different way -- with a woman blowing one of these brutes to kingdom come -- it might be a deterrent. Lives upon lives might be spared.

A friend of mine said: "The gun nuts are back."

They are.

And they are right.

Mind you, we are talking about arming people who are trained and know how to use a weapon.

No one should have a gun who has not been trained.

Just as one gets training in handling a boat, motorcycle, or car, one must learn how to use and safely store a gun. (The National Rifle Association maintains an extensive national network of programs in firearms training and education.)

And, obviously, no one would be forced to own a gun.

A second caveat: Encouraging citizens to arm themselves is no "answer" to crimes like the Petit murders.

An "answer" does not exist.

But it is one of several remedies when we are faced with palpable evil.

All possible remedies should be on the table:

-- Various reforms of the justice system, like a real three-strike-law for predatory offenders.

-- Better psychological treatment for troubled youth.

-- Religious training, in both love and self-restraint, especially when people are young.

-- Prison programs that both retain the hard core and educate the educable.

-- More and better home alarm systems.

-- More cops visible in more neighborhoods.

-- Dobermans.

All of these approaches have merit.

So does self-defense.

None of these options "fix" a society that can produce human beings who torture and kill the defenseless for sport.

No one step or program can plug every hole in America's justice system, or its soul.

But there are times when a gun in the hands of a potential victim may save a life.

Let's admit -- since the murderers, and druggies, and psychos, and thieves already have guns -- that arming the peaceful, law-abiding, decent, and productive people, whether in a school, or a private home, or on the way to a parked car, is an option that also has merit.

--------

Keith C. Burris is editorial page editor of the Journal Inquirer.



©Journal Inquirer 2007

Click link below for article page. For further commentary, scroll to bottom of page and read reader responses...

Understanding and common sense is a beautiful and rare thing to behold.

http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=18660461&BRD=985&PAG=461&dept_id=569380&rfi=8

Peter
08-12-2007, 02:29 AM
The KEY line in this whole article is right here at the end:

"Let's admit -- since the murderers, and druggies, and psychos, and thieves already have guns -- that arming the peaceful, law-abiding, decent, and productive people, whether in a school, or a private home, or on the way to a parked car, is an option that also has merit."

I agree that not everyone should have access to a gun. There is a serious lack of training out there BUT more $ spent on education programs would do society better than the $ spent on useless anti-gun programs. Take the right to defend themselves away from people and you have turned your society into one of sheep. Too many sheep, too many wolves, nowhere NEAR enough sheepdogs.

Texas Jim
08-12-2007, 03:56 AM
We all know the saying that (you never see one when we need one,)that's law enforcement. Law enforcement is only reactionary.

You don't have a fire truck setting outside of your house when your stove develops a grease fire! You keep a fire extinguisher in your pantry for that or baking soda. The fire truck doesn't come till your grease fire has gotten out of control. Again reactionary.

Law enforcement is only going to show up after a problem has been reported!! Generally that is too late and at the minimum the perp's have hostages and everything is going to be a long and drawn out event.

You may be scared to death of a gun, but how do you think your wife and kids are feeling at the hands of Chester the molester, and his 6'4" 250lbs buddy, Donald, who just grins and giggles??
The point being thee are other ways to protect yourself other than a gun, but a gun is the simplest equalizer you can have.

A little tarining on a weekend and some occasional practice will familiarize yourself with the weapon and build your confidence. Knowing how to become an Ultimate Fighting Champion, takes years of practice and many scheduled fights. Same for any Martial Arts.

Also since Chester and Donald are from some of the finer instutions of correctional services in the country I am sure they are familiar on the feelings of Pepper spray, and a Taser. Do Not count on these to protect you.

In a situation of life and death, the only real equalizer is a firearm ! Get one, learn how to use it safely and use it to defend yourself or your family, just like you would use a fire extinguisher on a fire! :headscratch: TJ

fustercluck
08-12-2007, 06:57 AM
We all know the saying that (you never see one when we need one,)that's law enforcement. Law enforcement is only reactionary.

You don't have a fire truck setting outside of your house when your stove develops a grease fire! You keep a fire extinguisher in your pantry for that or baking soda. The fire truck doesn't come till your grease fire has gotten out of control. Again reactionary.

Law enforcement is only going to show up after a problem has been reported!! Generally that is too late and at the minimum the perp's have hostages and everything is going to be a long and drawn out event.

You may be scared to death of a gun, but how do you think your wife and kids are feeling at the hands of Chester the molester, and his 6'4" 250lbs buddy, Donald, who just grins and giggles??
The point being thee are other ways to protect yourself other than a gun, but a gun is the simplest equalizer you can have.

A little tarining on a weekend and some occasional practice will familiarize yourself with the weapon and build your confidence. Knowing how to become an Ultimate Fighting Champion, takes years of practice and many scheduled fights. Same for any Martial Arts.

Also since Chester and Donald are from some of the finer instutions of correctional services in the country I am sure they are familiar on the feelings of Pepper spray, and a Taser. Do Not count on these to protect you.

In a situation of life and death, the only real equalizer is a firearm ! Get one, learn how to use it safely and use it to defend yourself or your family, just like you would use a fire extinguisher on a fire! :headscratch: TJ


Wow TJ! This is probably one of the more practical arguments I've read in favor of weapon ownership I've read. Bravo, my friend!

oly884
08-12-2007, 03:56 PM
Well written, and dead on.

A peaceful society is an armed society.

Hence the reason I just got myself a GLOCK 27.

xonetruthcrewx
08-12-2007, 07:48 PM
Yes, very good read TJ. That was definitely spot on. I myself have a Sig P220 (.45ACP) and P229 (.40S&W). I shoot both guns on a weekly basis, at least 50 rounds in each gun. Maybe one of these days California will realize that an armed society is a safe society.

Check out this thread over on the FJ Forums, http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/trail-use-safety-education/33475-weapons-boonies.html A good discussion for sure.

Texas Jim
08-13-2007, 06:09 AM
Yes, very good read TJ. That was definitely spot on. I myself have a Sig P220 (.45ACP) and P229 (.40S&W). I shoot both guns on a weekly basis, at least 50 rounds in each gun. Maybe one of these days California will realize that an armed society is a safe society.

Check out this thread over on the FJ Forums, http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/trail-use-safety-education/33475-weapons-boonies.html A good discussion for sure.



You might post for the party to check out www.packing.org it is a not government site that tries to keep abreast of gun carring laws across the states. From what Little I did read it was kind of confusing as to weather your friend should carry with his family,( the big concern of the two young boys, 6 and 8 years old) I would suggest a gun packing safe that is bio metrical with a five finger code. You can buy these for around $150. This will keep they tykes out and also allow his wife access to the weapon.


P.S. Thanks for all the kind words and sincerity about the post. Oly if I was you I would throw away the glock and get a real weapon. :tongueout: J/K lol Is the glock 27 a 10mm? if so I will cut you some slack...lol I like a 10mm.

04 Rocko Taco
08-13-2007, 06:33 AM
Tj, iirc, the glock 27 is .40

I can't check at work, I have a websense category block on "weapons".
So, I can't verify, but I am pretty sure it is a 40 cal.

oly884
08-13-2007, 12:30 PM
It is a .40 cal. Sweet little pistol.

The GLOCK 29 is the 10mm, but it is a larger frame than the 27. It's for concealed carry and thus I decided to go for a smaller frame.

I've shot all the glocks (this weekend was a shootout at the range) as well the XD40 (I like glocks WAY more, sorry TJ).

Peter
08-13-2007, 09:15 PM
You might post for the party to check out www.packing.org it is a not government site that tries to keep abreast of gun carring laws across the states. From what Little I did read it was kind of confusing as to weather your friend should carry with his family,( the big concern of the two young boys, 6 and 8 years old) I would suggest a gun packing safe that is bio metrical with a five finger code. You can buy these for around $150. This will keep they tykes out and also allow his wife access to the weapon.

I have one of these... GunVault is one of the better companies, IMO.
http://gunvault.com/nss-folder/pictures/multideluxesafe_pg.jpg
I may someday in the future, install one of the minivaults in my truck.

xonetruthcrewx
08-13-2007, 09:27 PM
TJ, ive been trying to get onto the packing.org website, but its seems that its down. Hmmmm.

Seanz0rz
08-13-2007, 09:46 PM
cant wait to get the hell out of CA so i can have a ccw. i love california except for that, a few other things too.

washington is my most likely destination. my aunt and uncle both carry, and he has offered to teach me how to shoot and everything else.

Cheese
08-14-2007, 05:24 PM
TJ, not only is that one of the tidiest metaphors, one I have not seen before, it is also the most comprehensible thing I have ever seen you write!

My personal opinion is that I do not like having problems I cannot solve. I have sought out training and acquired skills to solve problems I face, both in this arena and in others. A handgun is a tool and I like having a big tool box.

fustercluck
08-15-2007, 10:57 AM
You might post for the party to check out www.packing.org it is a not government site that tries to keep abreast of gun carring laws across the states. From what Little I did read it was kind of confusing as to weather your friend should carry with his family,( the big concern of the two young boys, 6 and 8 years old) I would suggest a gun packing safe that is bio metrical with a five finger code. You can buy these for around $150. This will keep they tykes out and also allow his wife access to the weapon.

I have one of these... GunVault is one of the better companies, IMO.
http://gunvault.com/nss-folder/pictures/multideluxesafe_pg.jpg
I may someday in the future, install one of the minivaults in my truck.



Hehe. Just don't ignore the 'low battery' warning too long and misplace the manual operation keys. True to form, I did this very thing and until we arrived back here to my big safe, I couldn't access my weapons and about 500.00 in emergency cash I had stashed in there.

Other than operator error, those gun vaults are terrific

Peter
08-15-2007, 12:45 PM
You know... I've had mine for about 6 years now and I have yet to replace the batteries.
Then again, I turned of the sound so it's possible I have been having a low battery warning for years.

How long have you seen the battery life last?

fustercluck
08-15-2007, 07:46 PM
You know... I've had mine for about 6 years now and I have yet to replace the batteries.
Then again, I turned of the sound so it's possible I have been having a low battery warning for years.

How long have you seen the battery life last?


I've had mine for four years. I turned the sound off of mine too. If the batteries are low, the little red indicator light flashes urgently when you open the door. I opened mine everyday. That might explain the relative longevity your batteries provided......it could also be that I'm a cheapskate and bought non-bunny batteries. :hillbill:

Seanz0rz
08-15-2007, 07:50 PM
i prefer redheaded step child batteries.

we have a nice gun safe at home. nothing in it, cant get the damn combination to work! i think we will have to hire a lock smith to open it.

fustercluck
08-15-2007, 09:47 PM
this one's mine... :D


http://www.equipmentland.com/products/browning/platinum/images/PP47F.jpg

We were separated for so long, I forgot the combo.....had to ask Mrs Fuster for the sequence :headscratch:

Texas Jim
08-16-2007, 12:57 PM
TJ, ive been trying to get onto the packing.org website, but its seems that its down. Hmmmm.
Sorry 'bout that! I guess it has been down for a couple of months!! I don't know why? but it has just been that way. :chair: TJ

Texas Jim
08-16-2007, 01:01 PM
You might post for the party to check out www.packing.org it is a not government site that tries to keep abreast of gun carring laws across the states. From what Little I did read it was kind of confusing as to weather your friend should carry with his family,( the big concern of the two young boys, 6 and 8 years old) I would suggest a gun packing safe that is bio metrical with a five finger code. You can buy these for around $150. This will keep they tykes out and also allow his wife access to the weapon.

I have one of these... GunVault is one of the better companies, IMO.
http://gunvault.com/nss-folder/pictures/multideluxesafe_pg.jpg
I may someday in the future, install one of the minivaults in my truck.

I also have one and it's great. I haven't checked battries since 2004, maybe I should do that.. :headscratch: TJ By the way, any one notice the nice H&K USP in the safe??? :tongueout:

gilby4runner
10-03-2007, 09:13 AM
A little off topic but you guys seem to know more about guns then i ever will. I am very familiar with shot guns and rifles but i am not very knowledgeable when it comes to hand guns. I am looking into getting my carring permit and i would also like my wife to get one. What would be a good gun for her? What would you suggest for me?

Bob98SR5
10-03-2007, 09:47 AM
pete,

is this considered a gun vault? if i install one of these in my 4runner, is it considered locked and legal? us 4runner owners have this issue of not having a locked trunk

bob

Bob98SR5
10-03-2007, 09:49 AM
A little off topic but you guys seem to know more about guns then i ever will. I am very familiar with shot guns and rifles but i am not very knowledgeable when it comes to hand guns. I am looking into getting my carring permit and i would also like my wife to get one. What would be a good gun for her? What would you suggest for me?


gilby,

go to a range and get her some lessons. let her make the choice, not us. not trying to be a e-weiner, its a personal choice on what feels best and what she shoots well with. its like buying ties---to this date, no relative, friend, etc has ever bought a tie that i liked :)

bob

04 Rocko Taco
10-03-2007, 09:50 AM
You can rent guns at the range, go there and put a few rounds through a few different handguns, and see what she, and you, feel comfortable with.

gilby4runner
10-03-2007, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the advice. My father wants me to take his Taurus 9mm and see if i like it. I have never been one for handguns but i think i would feel better if i had one with me in the truck. I will take you advice and see what i can find. Thanks!!

04 Rocko Taco
10-03-2007, 10:01 AM
a lot of people say Taurus makes a cheaper gun, I've only used thier 9mm, and Iliked it. Simple, effective. :)

fustercluck
10-03-2007, 11:02 AM
a lot of people say Taurus makes a cheaper gun, I've only used thier 9mm, and Iliked it. Simple, effective. :)
Ooh la oui!!!





http://www.notpurfect.com/main/gun/rb1.jpg

reggie 00
10-03-2007, 12:51 PM
Gilby4runner,

Like everyone has mentioned go the the range and check out the different stuff. It will be a preference thing. Wont even crack the whole revolver/auto arguments.

Taurus makes some good stuff especially if it is just going to receive casual use. My brother has the 92f 9mm and it does pretty good.

In case your question was more " what caliber should my wife and i get"

If your wife's on the small side look at .32 or even .38 with a normal load. Heck a .22 will make you stop and think for a min, and a good shot will ruin your day no matter the size.

For you, even if your on the smaller side try the .38, 9mm definitely my fav .45
or if your a big man like say Cheese, go with Fusters choice up above.

After you choose and purchase do you and everyone else a favor and take a class and practice as much as possible. Just having the gun is only a small part of the whole package.
You pull a gun on me and i see you dont have a clue I'm taking it and using it first on you then on what ever or who ever else i find to do with it.

gilby4runner
10-03-2007, 12:58 PM
reggie- Thanks for the info. My wife is 4-11 and she is comfortable with a 38... anything larger and i am afraid its to big. Dont worry a class will follow any purchase. Like i stated earlier i am very comfortable with shot guns and rifles but i will not own anything without being comfortable in its ability and my ability to use it. Thanks and sorry fluster for hijacking the thread

Texas Jim
10-03-2007, 05:40 PM
Gilby, if your wife likes a 38 cal. Look into a lady Smith & Wesson Revolver. It's hammerless simple to load and you just point it and shoot till all rounds are extinguished. Check with local Law Enforcement types and see what type of ammo they are carring. Weather it's a hollow point, full metal jacket, +p or P+P ammo. The Hollow Point with +p ammo is a great all around defense round. The name Hollow point means that the bullet expands on impact and rolls around tearing up soft tissue. The +p means a hotter load of gun powder. Giving you more knock down power.... Same applies to the 9mm ammo...

Happy & Safe Shooting!!


P.S. Don't feel embarrassed if your wife out shoots you right off the bat. Women seem to have some sort of natural instinct to shooting... TJ

reggie 00
10-03-2007, 07:36 PM
See if you can get hydra-shocks for what ever you shoot. They seem to do a little better in a house setting.

fustercluck
10-03-2007, 08:04 PM
reggie- Thanks for the info. My wife is 4-11 and she is comfortable with a 38... anything larger and i am afraid its to big. Dont worry a class will follow any purchase. Like i stated earlier i am very comfortable with shot guns and rifles but i will not own anything without being comfortable in its ability and my ability to use it. Thanks and sorry fluster for hijacking the thread


Not a problem. Hijack all you want. I'll talk guns at any opportunity...:D

gilby4runner
10-04-2007, 08:54 AM
P.S. Don't feel embarrassed if your wife out shoots you right off the bat. Women seem to have some sort of natural instinct to shooting... TJ



She comes from an outdoors family. She got her first deer at 9. She went that morning and shot at one and didnt have a good grip on the stock. It kicked back and broke her nose. She got so mad they went back that afternoon and she shot one. Looking at her you would never realize it but she is great when i comes to that stuff. My friends wont shoot skeet with us anymore. She outshot them all day long and finally brought up the fact that her 20 guage was smaller than the 12's they were shooting. She just couldnt understand why her small gun could hit the target and they couldnt....lol

Texas Jim
10-04-2007, 04:27 PM
[

My friends wont shoot skeet with us anymore. She outshot them all day long and finally brought up the fact that her 20 guage was smaller than the 12's they were shooting. She just couldnt understand why her small gun could hit the target and they couldnt....lol
[/quote]

It's real simple, she aims at the target!! That had to hurt when she broke her nose...Ouch!! TJ