Water pump failed, truck overheated and blown head gasket [Archive]

MTL_4runner

08-12-2007, 02:46 AM

I've had quite an ordeal the last week or so with my 4runner and I might as well post it up right away so all can benefit from it.

This was from Aug 3rd:

I was on driving on vacation and about 2 hours into my trip I heard a wierd muffled squeal and then nothing. A vehicle had just passed me on the highway so I assumed it was a bad belt on the other vehicle. Then about 5-6 minutes later I looked down and saw the temp guage completely redlined!!! We lucked out and only 1 mile ahead there was an exit. We took it and lucked out again because not only was there a gas station and restaurant, but also a tow truck company (evidently I wasn't the first or last to break down on that stretch of road). I asked the tow company if they could help me out after the truck cooled down so we went in and ate a nice lunch. We also had CAA (canadian AAA) so it got towed for free to the nearest Toyota dealer. They were very nice and quite frankly being on vacation, I wasn't in the slightest mood to want to try and fix the vehicle myself so I turned it over to them (and privately prayed it wasn't a blown HG). They called me back and said the water pump seized, but I was super lucky because the bearing spun in the housing and prevented the timing belt from breaking. The mechanic said the belt was litterally ready to go. The engine got pretty hot but I think switching to the synthetic engine oil really saved my butt because it was still a nice light honey color when I checked it right after overheating (I bet the old dino oil would have been nothing but sludge). I told them to just fix it well (new WP, timing belt, thermostat, idlers) so I'm not sure what the bill for that will look like (I was guessing around $500-600 at full dealer rates). Anyway, I also found out that Toyota has their own rental car company/fleet and we just went ahead and rented a new 2007 Camry for the week (very nice car and my wife now wants one to replace the Civic.....we'll probably do a few test drives when we return the rental ). So that will add a bit to this weeks bill, but really it ended up one of those situations where we took lemons and got lemonade in the end. I'll pick up the truck at the end of the week when we head back north again.

This was from Aug 11th:

Well, the saga continues.....We dropped off our rental Camry yesterday and paid the $900 they wanted for fixing it. Then on the way back home it with the 4runner the darn thing overheated again on the highway after about 1 hr or so of driving. I think it may be time to step out of the truck and start looking at other options. This really sucks since that is the first time in over ten years that I owned the truck that it has ever broke down but to have it fixed at the dealer and the to go south again was enough to shatter my wife's confidence in the vehicle (ie even if I put a new motor in it I doubt she'd ever drive it again). :( We'll be vehicle shopping on monday and see what they'll give me for a trade-in on it. With small kids we just can't afford to have this type of thing happen so I'm not going to even attempt to fix it at this point. I'll let you know how I make out when the smoke clears.

Lee

08-12-2007, 05:04 AM

awwww man that sucks :( sorry to hear that jamie. You should call that dealership and complain like mad... see if you can get SOMETHING out of it.

this would be an AWESOME truck for someone to buy, theyd just have to fix each cooling system item one at a time to see which will do the trick :)

MTL_4runner

08-12-2007, 05:22 AM

Well, I talked it over with my wife this morning with the ability to put a bit more rational thought behind the problem at hand and I think we might change the gameplan a little bit. The 4runners up here are horribly expensive (try $40k for a 2007 V6, 4x4, SR5 and choose your color then if you want to step up to a Limited try more like $50k......that's almost 1/3 of what my house cost!!!). The other issue is that going to a dealer with a wounded vehicle is like chumming the water while trying to catch fish....very bad idea. So I think the plan now will be to keep both the 1996 4runner and the 2002 Civic and then just start looking for an 07 Camry (we'd been considering this lately anyway, this just forces us to do it sooner.....we already know we want one after renting one for the week).

The other side is that we need at least one vehicle that is good in deep snow (Camry and Civic aren't really going to cut it around these parts), so the thought is for me to repair the 4runner before winter arrives. The 4runner is still in great condition, I just bought new CV axles for it, replaced an O2 sensor a while back, got new summer tires so I now have almost new full seperate winter / summer tire sets and it now has another $900 worth of work put into it (waterpump and all this week). Then to basically give it away for a song and then watch someone else fix it and drive it locally would be like a kick in the nuts every time I passed it on the road. So I'm going to fix it as a project vehicle now (which is much better IMHO because it's no fun fixing a daily driver....I'm way too old to be doing that these days!). :thumbup:

Lee

08-12-2007, 05:41 AM

good call! i like that plan :laugh:

i want a camry/corolla for a DD so bad... i love the latest body style corolla but... talk about holding their value!! ive seen 03's and 04's with near 100K that are still around 9-12K

MTL_4runner

08-12-2007, 06:15 AM

Thanks Lee, I like that plan alot better myself too.
I would get a Corolla, but with kids it's just too small on trips.

Now I just need to add 2 more tools to my collection (coolant pressure tester and cylinder leakdown tester.....I just got my borescope on my trip to Boston so that should come in handy here no doubt). Just when you think you have all the tools too. :laugh: Guess it's time to start scanning eBay for tools again. :D

I'm going to run a cooling system pressure test to 15 psi and then a block test to make sure no combustion gasses are in the coolant (which I hope they aren't because that will mean either a HG or the heads/block are cracked......either way that probably means a used motor for me :tapedshut: ). I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's just something stupid and simple. :thumbup:

Lee

08-12-2007, 07:51 AM

gotcha. i assume you have run down the typical radiator / thermo / fan stuff?

your rad could be clogged if its the stock one :headscratch:

MTL_4runner

08-12-2007, 10:18 AM

Whatever this issue is, it's definately related to the waterpump going south and any subsequent repairs so I don't think it's going to be a clogged radiator or it should have shown up earlier. I do see some coolant residue (like where the cooling system might have let go) down near the lower radiator hose (where it attaches to the radiator) that the dealer just replaced. The spray pattern is just down low and not all over the reservoir and side of the radiator when the WP let loose the first time. I also had some trouble getting the top radiator hose to seal (at the raditaor) so it may be as simple as that. The thermostat was replaced at the dealer when they did the WP and the fan seems to push more than enough air (it's not doing much at highway speed anyway and that's when it overheated). It's also a good clue that whatever it was that went, it took almost 1 hour to show up and even after overheating the truck still idled and drove normally (HG issues often don't). The second time it also began to cool back down (at least to just below redline) when I lowered my speed (ie going from highway speed down to 30-40 MPH). I haven't had a chance to go out and look at it today, but hopefully this week I'll get it diagnosed and on the way to being nursed back to health.

All I have to say is thank God I switched to synthetic engine oil before the trip!

MTL_4runner

08-12-2007, 06:42 PM

Well I went out and played with the motor a bit and tried to see where the issue might be. It started fine, but had a bit of a wierd noise which smoothed out after a few secs. The one thing I did notice was that the top radiator hose seemed to build pressure quite quickly and the coolant got very hot in a short period of time. I think I need to pull out the thermostat and see if the engine will still overheat (it might have gotten toasted in the 2nd overheat). I also noticed the engine would stall a bit and did shut off sporadically a few times. Something odd is definately going on and it's looking more like a HG issue. I know these motors (3.4L and esp the 3.0L) are highly suceptable to even a slight overheating so that would make sense. I'm going to pull the plugs next and use the borescope to see if any of the cylinders show signs of an HG leak.

Lee

08-12-2007, 07:54 PM

yeah that plagued the 96 & 97 3.4's

MTL_4runner

08-13-2007, 06:24 AM

MTL_4runner

08-13-2007, 07:16 AM

If anyone knows of a well priced HG rebuild kit (that isn't junk) definately post it up.

Lee

08-13-2007, 07:26 AM

Worst part is I already did the HG recall (and the campaign is over anyway) so it's a DIY job for me this time. As long as the block and heads aren't cracked or in need of resurfacing, then I'll be a happy camper. At least there's no time pressure to get this fixed asap anymore. We're going to look at new Camry's today. :thumbup:
nice man!! good luck, and dont let em sucker ya! :)

you know whats odd? in 01, they changed the manifolds to actual headers. i noticed that my buddies 98 that had a crack in the manifold were not the same as mine, because mine are actual headers :)

MTL_4runner

08-13-2007, 09:21 AM

you know whats odd? in 01, they changed the manifolds to actual headers. i noticed that my buddies 98 that had a crack in the manifold were not the same as mine, because mine are actual headers :)

Maybe that's where they got the extra 10 HP on the 99-02 models. :headscratch:

Lee

08-13-2007, 10:37 AM

i thought they were all rated at 183?

MTL_4runner

08-13-2007, 11:59 AM

i thought they were all rated at 183?

I looked at J.A.'s site and it looks like you're right.
Somehow I had in my head that in 99 it went to 190HP, guess I was wrong.

Seanz0rz

08-13-2007, 12:48 PM

the tacomas came with 190 hp, while the 4runners were rated 183. i have no clue on that one.

good luck fixing, i would go in and make sure you got what you paid for, esp in a thermostat. last time i took mine in to solve my shuddering problem, they told me 270 for plugs and wires. and that the plugs looked original to the engine. i of course dont have that kind of money, so i took it home and did it myself. they had never even pulled the coil packs, and i doubt they had ever pulled the plugs. i was very disappointed, but seeing how i did not spend any money on it, no big deal.

hillbilly

08-14-2007, 05:13 AM

Wow... bummer Jamie. Nothing worse than car' troubles with a load of kids. Certainly sounds like your T-stats is suspect if your top ends building up heat/pressure super fast. Hope the dealer didn't install the T-stat upside down! :chair: Hope you contacted the dealer for some sort of refund! If there's one thing I can't stand its a halfa$$ job.:spank:

Let us know if the HG's intact...

fenrisx

08-14-2007, 03:50 PM

This might be a nice time to drop in a V8 from a Lexus. ;0

Goodluck with getting your troubles straightened out. I dread the day something like this happens to me because I've got no extra cash to pay for the repairs.

slosurfer

08-14-2007, 04:17 PM

Bummer man! This may be a shot in the dark but I didn't see it mentioned, have you tried burping the cooling system again? Maybe after they did the WP they didn't get all the air out?

mkgarrison5

08-15-2007, 07:58 AM

that sucks jamie.. how many miles do you have on your truck?? also it maybe fautly parts perhaps from dealership?? let us know how it goes

MTL_4runner

08-15-2007, 08:56 AM

that sucks jamie.. how many miles do you have on your truck?? also it maybe faulty parts perhaps from dealership?? let us know how it goes

I've been busy with work since I got back so I haven't had a chance to go at it as much as I'd like to. I've got around 140k on the truck right now, but I am convinced the original WP failure and subsequent overheating was really a fluke. The second overheat I have yet to figure out why it occurred. I did a compression test on the motor and all cylinders seemed to have fairly good compression (all were around 165-170 psi) so if there's a leak in the HG at all it's definitely very small to say the least. I also looked at the plugs and they all looked to be burning fairly well (again no obvious signs of an HG leak). I'm going to pull the thermostat completely and see if the truck is still pushing coolant out of the radiator neck quickly and then let it heat up and see if it boils the coolant again. I doubt the thermostat is the problem since I drove it for 40 min to an hour before it overheated the second time (either a bad thermostat or an air pocket in the cooling system should have shown up much faster than that). If it is a headgasket leak then it is indeed very small because there's no smell of coolant in the exhaust (definately nothing visible). I might also try just taking off the valve covers and retorquing all the head bolts and see if that doesn't help my issue without having to redo the HG. I'll figure it out now that it's off the road as a DD (I got my wife a new 2007 CRV EX AWD to drive around in so she's set and then it will be up to me if I want to drive the 4runner or the Civic).

hillbilly

08-15-2007, 09:40 AM

(I got my wife a new 2007 CRV EX AWD to drive around in so she's set and then it will be up to me if I want to drive the 4runner or the Civic).

Nice. Good little ride (well, bigger now) for a Mom with little one's up north.

MTL_4runner

08-15-2007, 10:51 AM

Nice. Good little ride (well, bigger now) for a Mom with little one's up north.

We like it too, much nicer than I thought they'd be in both handling and finish. It also came with alot of very nice standard features like moonroof, MP3 input, 6 disc CD changer, 17" alloy rims, tire pressure monitor, the list of items is quite impressive. I also like that it doesn't have a huge console in the middle (it has a fold down console tray) which makes things alot easier when my wife needs to head to the back seat to attend to junior while I'm driving. I also like that they no longer use a timing belt (2.4L uses a timing chain) so no worries about the engine getting toasted when a t-belt breaks.

Here's what we got, same color and all:

Badlands

08-15-2007, 11:30 AM

Sorry to hear about your misfortunes MTL_4runner!

Hope everythings gonna be okay with your 4runner...but if your looking for a new one...try picking one up from a lease...it's half the cost of a new one and they usually have under 60,000 km on em.

I got mine from a dealer (certified) w 52,000 km for 26K. I agree a new 4Runner (tacoma too for that matter) is outragious!

Good luck with keepin' yours rolling!
-B

MTL_4runner

08-16-2007, 07:30 AM

Back to the problem at hand....

Has anyone done a HG on these trucks themselves? Where did you get your parts? Cost?
I'm not sure if they make a HG kit at the dealer or not, anyone know on this either? Cost?

I'm just getting ready in case I need to do one and I have a feeling that the standard HG set from the dealer is going to be very expensive (probably more than I want to sink into the truck at this point). I've seen alot of places selling an Ishino brand cylinder head gasket set which claims to be OEM, but who knows and I certainly don't want to be doing this job twice if I have to do it. I've also found that MLS (multi-layer-steel) gaskets are far more preferable than the standard graphite head gaskets the less expensive kits sell but I've had a heck of a time finding rebuild kits that have these (besides going to the dealer). If anyone has a source for these, post up.

traxman25

08-16-2007, 01:02 PM

I too think you should look into the air bubble problem. I've done a lot of work involving the coolant system on my 4 runners and many times I've driven 90-100 miles only to have it over heat again. The FSM will tell you to run with the cap off for about a minute. I no longer follow that. I let the motor run with the cap off until the coolant expands enough to be almost over flowing. That usually solves the problem.

Most times the thermostat goes, esp. if newer, you'll notice the motor over heat a little and then cool off again, and cycle doing so. They normally don't just melt. I think it would be a long shot for an HG to be causing this bad of an issue with out displaying some other symptoms first. IE colored smoke (white or blue), smelly exhaust, rough running, ext.

MTL_4runner

08-16-2007, 07:07 PM

Well I replaced the spark plugs today and looked at all the cylinders with a borescope and really didn't see anything unusual or out of the ordinary (the combustion chambers were all very clean and quite carbon free from what I could see :thumbup: ).

The next step was to remove the thermostat which I did and try to see if the vehicle would still build up pressure in the cooling system. The hoses didn't seem to build any unusual amount of pressure running the engine at 2-3k for 2-3 mins at a time. The engine was warming up quite quickly still so I'm not sure what to make of that at this point (leaky HG? bearings? cylinder hot spots?). I'll try and get a leakdown tester and try to pressurize the cooling system and see if those tests are any more conclusive.

mkgarrison5

08-17-2007, 05:26 AM

140k miles isnt much big guy.. makes me a little nervous

MTL_4runner

08-17-2007, 05:32 AM

140k miles isnt much big guy.. makes me a little nervous

If you're worried then have someone change the waterpump (I still think mine was a fluke left over from when a dealer in AZ screwed with my cooling system.....basically they drained my coolant and put something in which caused my cooling system to rust heavily....likely just plain old water). It was the subsequent overheating after the WP failure that caused the issue I'm dealing with right now. Changing the WP beforehand is cheap money by comparison.

I'm working with Johnny over at sea2sky tuning (in Vancouver) to see if he can get me a good price on an MLS head gasket set for my motor. Then it would be worth tearing the heads off to have a look and make sure everything looks good before I button it all back up and call it fixed.

traxman25

08-17-2007, 01:36 PM

(the combustion chambers were all very clean and quite carbon free from what I could see :thumbup: ).

That's actually could be a bad thing at 140K miles. You may be leaking just enough water to steam clean the cylinders.

MTL_4runner

08-19-2007, 02:28 PM

That's actually could be a bad thing at 140K miles. You may be leaking just enough water to steam clean the cylinders.

While in theory you could be right the chances of that happening in every cylinder equally is almost nil. I am going to just do a head gasket anyway to be sure it's all done right because breaking down up here in winter really sucks. I know of at least a few other trucks that have survived a dance with the temp redline and still been ok (even Johnny from sea2sky tuning had it happen on his Tacoma), but I'm the more conservative type so I'd rather do the work and have the piece of mind that everything was done right.

BennyTRD

08-19-2007, 11:55 PM

MTL_4runner

08-20-2007, 07:18 PM

I hope you get your issues dealt with Jamie. I think this post has made my mind up about changing the t-belt, t-stat, pump, and tensioners next time I have a few days off. A little preventative maintenance goes along way. Let me know how sourcing the head gasket goes, might as well do the whole works while I have it apart. Good luck.

Wise choice.....much better safe than sorry as you can see clearly in my case (sucks being the guinea pig).
I'm still not sure I'd call my WP failure normal though.

MTL_4runner

08-20-2007, 07:36 PM

Looks like the only items needed to do the entire HG job are:
Intake and exhaust manifold gaskets
Throttle body gasket
Head Gaskets
Head bolt set

So, I've been looking at head gasket options....

1) New MLS Head Gaskets from the dealer (@ $35.20 per side or about $70 for a full set)
www.toyotapartsales.com

2) Cometic brand MLS head gaskets (@ $82.50 per side or about $165 for a full set)
http://www.mr2.com/forums/sea2sky-tuning/Toyota-MR2-20121-sea2sky-tuning-offer-cometic-mls-headgaskets.html
http://www.cometic.com/gaskethome.aspx

3) Victor Reinz MLS head gaskets (@ $45 per side or about $90 for a full set)
http://carquestgaskets.ca/solutions/SS-VR-I-02.pdf

There are tons of rebuild sets on eBay, but from what I gather (from people who work on the 5VZ-FE quite a bit) they are 99% junk and I don't plan on doing this job twice so I won't be trying any of them.

One other place had been mentioned to get full rebuild kits for the 3.4L engine:
http://www.rpmrons.com/Toykits.html

mkgarrison5

08-21-2007, 04:57 AM

MTL_4runner

08-21-2007, 05:30 AM

i would go with a toyota one then jamie. like you said you dont want to be doing it twice.. so you are please with the synpower huh? its BOGO here in the states at advance auto.. just bought 24 qts of it and only paid for 12 shhhhh :-) dont tell anyone

I'm pretty pleased because I'm sure it saved my butt from killing the motor during the overheat. If all I did was lose a HG, then I'd consider that pretty lucky. I haven't torn the heads off yet so I can't say for sure there's no more damage, but my fingers are crossed.

mkgarrison5

08-21-2007, 06:44 AM

keep us informed and take plenty of pics!! hopefully you lucked out. 140k miles is too young. thats like dying at 30.

mkgarrison5

08-29-2007, 10:26 AM

any word on the culprit yet jamie?

MTL_4runner

08-29-2007, 11:08 AM

Not yet. I want to pressurize my cooling system up to 15 psi and see if I get any visible leaks before I go ripping the heads off it. I cleared out my garage and made space to do the head gaskets if I need to but I was debating if it might be easier to just rip the entire engine out of the vehicle and give it a good overhaul at the same time (or maybe even just getting a used motor with some miles on it and doing up a full rebuild while the other motor is still in the truck, but I'm not sure that would make good financial sense). I also wanted to order the head gaskets just in case so I have the parts on hand and it takes a bit of time to get snail mail to deliver north of the Border. I promise I'll have pics when I start tearing it down and I plan to have it fixed before the weather gets too cold (luckily in this case global warming is on my side. :laugh: )

mkgarrison5

08-30-2007, 06:00 AM

how bad did it overheat? i have overheated many cars and never had HG issues till lots of miles down the road and all were a gradual HG decend.. is it running like crap? or are you just trying to be cautious as possible?

MTL_4runner

08-30-2007, 10:59 AM

The first time it redlined pretty badly and it's hard to say how long it was like that since when you're driving long distances time seems to blend together. The second time it overheated after about 50 minutes of driving (so that would tend to tell me that something let go along the way....HG?.....not sure at this point), but once I let off the gas the engine temps started coming back down (again this would indicate a HG failure). There is definately something wrong because the other night I was able to get the truck up to normal operating temp on the coolant even though the thermostat was completely removed from the engine. I don't think there's any way around it, I'm going to have to at least tear the heads off and see what's going on inside this motor that would cause it to heat up excessively like that.

This 3.4L motor and especially it's cousin the 3.0L are very succeptable to an overheat partly because it is an iron block and aluminum heads but I think the design of the motor itself also comes into play because I've overheated cast iron chevy 350 blocks with aluminum heads and not had it blow the head gasket or crack a head. This aspect still does not diminish the fact that to me the 5VZ-FE is still one of the most durable motors out there in terms of the mileage you can put on one before a rebuild. My truck did suffer what I would call a severe overheat and clearly some damage was done......now I just need to find out what happened and fix it.

MTL_4runner

09-02-2007, 02:15 PM

I finally started tearing it down today but only got as far as getting off the intake and clearing out all the electrical wiring (some of those are a pain to get at). Hopefully tomorrow I'll have the heads off the motor and I can get a good idea of what the heck is going on with this engine. If I still don't see anything obvious I may just go ahead and pull the entire motor out and set it on an engine stand for a complete inspection.

The ace up my sleeve is that I can always get a used 3.4L for about $1000 and be up and running quick. :D

Here's some pics of before I started.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting001Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting002Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting003Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting004Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting005Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting006Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting007Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting008Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerHoseRouting009Large.jpg

MTL_4runner

09-03-2007, 04:47 PM

Made some good progress today but I couldn't take the heads off because I forgot that I needed service bolts for the cams (and I didn't know you need to take the cams out to get at the head bolts). The engine is still in very good condition all things considered and when I pulled off the heads it didn't appear to have much sludging at all under the valve covers. One thing to note is that the knock sensor wires are very easy to pull out (one wire pulled right out of it's connector) so make sure you OHM them out before you install everything or you may need to do it all over again to fix a bad connection.

MTL_4runner

09-03-2007, 04:50 PM

Here's where I stopped for the night....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerIntakeRemoved001Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerIntakeRemoved002Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerIntakeRemoved003Large.jpg

You can see my shiny new $1000 water pump in the pics too. :roll:

mkgarrison5

09-04-2007, 05:16 AM

MTL_4runner

09-04-2007, 05:47 AM

i am assuming you are going to go ahead do some HG work since you have torn this one down just about? cant wait for the pics of your valves and etc. it will be nice to see what a overheat and lifelong dino use looks like..my fingers are crossed jaimie

I already pulled one valve cover and can see into the intake valves and everything still looks very clean to me. I'm going to get the (I think they are 6mm x 1.0 size?) service bolts so I can pull the cams and at least one head tonight. My fingers are crossed that I can find something definately wrong/failed otherwise I'll be a bit leary about putting it all back together and hoping that it was just high pressure blowby from the head gasket. I've seen quite a bit of shoddy work on the engine so far (big surprise) from when they did the HG campaign and didn't scrape the gasket surfaces totally clean after. I also found some gasket sealant plugging the coolant hose to the throttle body (this might have caused an air pocket, but it's hard to say that definately caused the last boilover......the hose looked to have alot of white powder in it which indicates it may have been a dry spot for some time). I should have taken a pic of it, but I was filthy and didn't have my camera handy. I used the garden hose to test every coolant hose on the engine and to make sure everything was flowing well and they were (some rusty crap came out initially but it flowed clean afterwards). Other than that I didn't see any clear failures yet on any of the sealing surfaces. I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it eventually, but I really wish this had failed at the beginning of summer, not at the end because now I'm in a race to get it all fixed before winter (and sustained freezing temps) arrive. :(

Lee

09-04-2007, 06:53 AM

you still have a good month and half before it gets THAT cold :thumbup:

good progress jamie, good luck!

MTL_4runner

09-05-2007, 05:31 PM

OK, I finally got both heads off tonight and I am really surprised at how well the engine has done to this point (ie over 140k miles on it when the overheating took place). I didn't really see any evidence that the head gasket was leaking or if it was, the leak was TINY. What I did see that was abnormal was all the crud collected in the coolant passages. Sometimes you may see rust in the engine but in this case it looks like hard water deposits (vis a vis my little tangle with the dealer in Arizona). So I am really at a crossroads right now on what the best course of action is from here. I'll post the pics thus far so people can see what I'm looking at. I'll post up some pics tomorrow of both heads off when I get everything all cleaned up.

I think maybe the best thing would be to set up a poll in a different thread and let people vote for the best option.

MTL_4runner

09-05-2007, 05:46 PM

Finally with one of the heads off!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval001Large.jpg

Looks good, not too much carbon buildup on pistons
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval002Large.jpg

This is why you buy Toyota motors (you can still see some of the factory hone crosshatching after 140k miles!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval003Large.jpg

Problem area in the cooling passages (esp towards the back of the motor)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval006Large.jpg

Intake side also with very little carbon buildup
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval009Large.jpg

Some residue on the valve covers (very normal)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval012Large.jpg

Almost no residue in the heads at all!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval014Large.jpg

BruceTS

09-05-2007, 06:51 PM

can you get some better pictures of the mating surface, it's hard to tell, but I can't see any place where there was a leak.... Need a better shot of the back half of the block

MTL_4runner

09-05-2007, 07:32 PM

can you get some better pictures of the mating surface, it's hard to tell, but I can't see any place where there was a leak.... Need a better shot of the back half of the block

Yeah, I'll post some of the block surface and the head surface. I checked for cracks on the heads and haven't been able to find any yet. I may have to let the machine shop pressure test them just to be sure something isn't getting missed.

I wish I had the option of just buying a low mileage JDM motor and be done with it like you did Bruce, but I haven't seen any of the 5VZ-FEs pop up lately at anywhere near a reasonable price (then factor in shipping and it becomes a dealbreaker). Then if I just went with a used motor, it's a total hit or miss depending on how well the prior owner(s) took care of maintenance. I could do a full rebuild but that is likely to cost $2-3k for everything all said and done. The last option is obviously to pressure wash the crap out of the cooling passages as best I can and button it back up and hope it runs better that it was.

mkgarrison5

09-06-2007, 05:25 AM

MTL_4runner

09-06-2007, 06:39 PM

More pics of the block and sealing surfaces.....nothing conclusive IMHO.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval018Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval017Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval016Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadRemoval015Large.jpg

MTL_4runner

09-06-2007, 06:47 PM

i am not a mechanic but i dont see the justice in rebuilding. maybe a few things here and there but not a overhaul. i agree with the pressuer washing or some kind of cleaning and do a hell of a flush when you put things back together. i think you lucked out. i think you can get out of this with little $ spent and be good to go for another 100k or more...

I'm still thinking that as long as I have it apart this far I might as well do it right and pull it all apart and have everything hot tanked at the very least (it's also alot easier to build the engine on an engine stand than it is to work on it in the truck!). That should be good enough to get rid of all the carbon and cooling system deposits. The rest should require almost nothing to put back together and just soak the pistons/rings in top end cleaner, reuse bearings if the look good, oil pump (good pressure still) etc. I just need to make sure it all goes back together EXACTLY as it came apart. If the cost is pretty minimal I may have them hone the cylinders and lap the valves (it shouldn't need a full valve job at all at this mileage). The problem is that once you start down the road to a rebuild, where do you stop? Pretty soon you end up with a new motor and a few grand spent which is not really what I am after. I'll probably have this truck for another 2-3 years and then trade it in on a Double Cab Tacoma. So basically it needs to be functional and reliable for a few more years yet not cost me an arm and a leg so I can drop a decent chunk of change down on the new truck.

BruceTS

09-06-2007, 07:09 PM

I agree, hard to see if there was a problem with the head gaskets, check for warpage in the heads. There's still a possibility that the gasket did leak, but since you didn't put much time on it, that it doesn't leave the tells on the surfaces, but the surface in the 4th picture is the only questionable shot. I'd have to inspect that gasket closer to be sure. While you have the block apart replace the freeze plugs as well.

mkgarrison5

09-07-2007, 04:46 AM

either way that is one good lookin motor after 140k miles on Dino oil.. what kind of motor maintanence have you done over the years and intake maintanence?

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 06:12 AM

either way that is one good lookin motor after 140k miles on Dino oil.. what kind of motor maintanence have you done over the years and intake maintanence?

Basically just used carb cleaner every 10k miles on the throttle body (to keep the IAC valve clean) and clean the carbon off the throttle plate and the TB bore itself. Then I just run Seafoam in the gastank (3 cans in less than 1/3 tank and run until empty light) about every 25k miles. Other than that, I just changed the oil when it began to look dirty (probably more often than was needed but I used cheapo Walmart oil so it wasn't a big deal).

mkgarrison5

09-07-2007, 07:07 AM

mkgarrison5

09-07-2007, 07:08 AM

btw you dont run seafoam through the pcv valve or whatnot?

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 10:19 AM

so to clean the intake all you did was take the black tube of the intake and manually clean the butterfly valve and the IAC valve (isnt that the hole under the butterfly valve?) and spray liberally inside the intake and let it sit? i cant keep it running of course due to the MAF sensor shutting the truck off so i just take the tube off and spray about a 1\4 can of intake clean in there and crank it up and burn it out.. how do you do it?

Yes, the key is to use an old toothbrush and hold the plate open while you clean out the TB bore and throttle plate. Then spray liberally into the hole just in front of the throttle plate and let it sit about 5 min, no more (usually just putting the intake tube back is enough time to sit). Then fire the truck up with your foot full to the floor and then let off and keep the RPMs about 2500 until the smoke clears. You'll see a nice white cloud which will go away in 30 secs or less and that's it.

btw you dont run seafoam through the pcv valve or whatnot?

I haven't been, no.

mkgarrison5

09-07-2007, 10:53 AM

why not on the seafoam,just curious.... noted on the TB cleaning. thanks jamie

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 11:37 AM

why not on the seafoam,just curious.... noted on the TB cleaning. thanks jamie

Well, I honestly never really got around to making it part of my maintenance regimen.
Doesn't look like there was much to take care of anyway given the teardown.

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 11:51 AM

Ok, I got some prices from the machine shop and it's not as bad as I was expecting.

Block
Block hot tanked and check deck surfaces for flatness - $50
New freeze plugs installed - $9 ($1 each)
Magnaflux $40 (likely overkill because the block rarely cracks or if it does it is visible)

Heads
Pressure test both heads - $120
Hot tank and rebuild both heads - $320 (plus parts like valves, guides or shims if needed)
Deck heads if needed - $40 each (as needed)

Full Toyota rebuild gasket set from dealer - $469
Aftermarket head bolt set - $45
knock sensor harness - $16 (dealer said they replace them on every engine rebuild!)

I spoke with a mechanic from Toyota and they said at that mileage and with the crosshatching still clearly visible on the cylinder walls that likely the bearings, oil pump and piston rings are fine, just be sure to thoroughly number everything so it goes back in place exactly where it came from. They said 9 times out of 10 that if you have any issues, it will be with the heads (cracks, warping, HG sealing, etc) and if there is any doubt, have them decked just to be sure you have nice flat sealing surfaces.

mkgarrison5

09-07-2007, 12:14 PM

sweet baby jesus.. glad you are getting out of this with all of your arms and legs haha.. so where in the tear down would the seafoam if administered through the pcv valve clean? and would it really make that much of a difference compared to what you have done in your 140k mile maintanence routine??

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 06:10 PM

I took another look at what it's going to take to pull the entire block and to do it all looks like it's gonna be a major PITA (esp since I have to do this all by myself......and I'd also have to go buy and engine crane and a stand for building the motor). The bolts around the bellhousing on the passenger side all have tranny lines running by them and the access to the torque converter bolts are almost completely obstructed by the front dif. :confused: So I have decided to switch gears a bit and try to clean the coolant passages instead of doing a full hot tanking on the block.

I did clean them as best I could tonight and it looked to me like they came out good enough that I can just proceed with redoing the heads and call it good. So I got it all pressure washed in place, but it was a fair amount of work to minimize the overspray and keep water out of the oil pan. I very tightly stuffed paper towels in all the oil holes so no water could flow freely into oil passages......although a little bit might have gotten through but I'll get rid of that when I change the oil before starting the motor again.

When I was done pressure washing I used a shop vac to remove any water/debris from the cooling passages, pistons, threaded holes, etc and used compressed air to blow out the rest. Then I coated everything in a nice coat of WD40 to prevent rust from forming (which it does immediately on any exposed metal up here) and all the cylinder walls got recoated with engine oil.

So now I have the surfaces all clean, I need to clean off the tops of the pistons and finally check the sealing surface for flatness to be sure the gasket will hold fine when the heads are torqued down. This should save me alot of work if all goes well. :D

MTL_4runner

09-07-2007, 07:01 PM

There was one more observation I made and that was that the head gasket is a strange hybrid between traditional graphite gaskets (used on alot of all cast iron motors) and an MLS gasket used on engines that have different expansion rates (ie aluminum heads and iron block). They have the graphite side down against the iron block (which makes sense) and the MLS on the top portion which mates to the aluminum head (it allows for the expansion and can take the huge shear forces). This means that the most critical surface to ensure flatness is the heads since the graphite will fill in and stick to most uneven surfaces on the cast iron block side (such as when you use an abrasive wheel to remove the gasket material). I've never seen a gasket like that so it's obvious Toyota needed to come up with a creative solution to the problem (of the original leaky all graphite gaskets.....although mine went almost 120k with the original gasket before doing the HG recall).

jrallan26

09-13-2007, 10:51 AM

Jamie,

If you are going to fully disassemble the motor, take the motor to a machine shop. Check for warpage. Just a thought....

MTL_4runner

09-14-2007, 07:05 PM

Jamie,

If you are going to fully disassemble the motor, take the motor to a machine shop. Check for warpage. Just a thought....

I'm either going to have the heads totally rebuilt (cleaned, pressure tested, decked, valve job) or I'll just buy another set of heads from the guys over at http://www.cylinder-heads.com/

Looks like it's about $300 per side plus S&H
http://www.cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=789
http://www.cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=792

Still working on piecing together the rest of the parts to get it all back together.

MTL_4runner

09-19-2007, 08:08 AM

I thought everyone might benefit from seeing the hybrid head gasket I mentioned earlier:

HG - graphite side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloseup002Large.jpg

HG - Graphite side closeup
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloseup003Large.jpg

HG - MLS side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloseup001Large.jpg

HG - MLS closeup
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloseup004Large.jpg

HG - Metal Surface Layer
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloserinspection008Large.jpg

HG - Metal Surface Layer (another angle)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloserinspection010Large.jpg

jrallan26

09-19-2007, 08:35 AM

The gaskets dont look that bad.... I dont see any cylinder leakage....

MTL_4runner

09-19-2007, 08:54 AM

The gaskets dont look that bad.... I dont see any cylinder leakage....

There was nothing obvious but I can see on the heads and block (from the brinelling marks left from the steel compression rings on the HG) that there was not an even pressure across the entire sealing surface. Toyota should have been paying to resurface the heads on that HG recall (since MLS sealing surfaces require a much smoother finish than graphite) when the new head gaskets were istalled. In any case either the heads or the block has a slightly uneven surface to it and was not getting a good seal. I also noticed that there were alot of deposits in the cooling system so either one could have been a contributor to the overheat condition I was seeing.

I'm looking at getting a spare 3.4L for a full rebuild just in case this one still has issues.

MTL_4runner

09-20-2007, 08:06 AM

I went and took some more pics of the head gasket and tried to scour it for areas that might have breached.....I think I found something.:king:

Take a look at the top of the middle cylinder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloserinspection002Large.jpg

Here's a closer look (you can see some tiny burn marks between the cylinder and the coolant passage)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloserinspection003Large.jpg

Here's the same area on the other head gasket (you can see the defined line so this one held fine)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketCloserinspection004Large.jpg

The leakage was very slight for sure but I'm pretty sure this was the issue. This would also be very consistent with what typically happens to aluminum heads bolted to an iron block which gets overheated (the head will tend to bow up in the center and reduce the surface force on the head gasket just enough to allow the cylinder combustion pressure to breach the seal). I'd bet money that 9 times out of 10 that if you have a combustion leak, it will be on the middle cylinders (so cylinders #3 and #4).

This thread here pretty much confirms my hypothesis:
http://www.yotatech.com/f2/toyota-head-gaskets-break-laws-physics-69405/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/DNoel/Car%20Pictures/BlownGasket-2.jpg

FYI, anyone changing an HG should always have the heads resurfaced and use either an OEM or metal surfaced HG (you can see that with the Felpro gasket, the head side does not have the piston fire ring extended onto the gasket's surface like the OEM HG does). It costs more to do it right since head resurfacing isn't cheap, but if you want it to last and don't feel like doing the job twice, you'll heed what's being said here.

So it seems like this motor (the 5VZ-FE 3.4L) is pretty much bulletproof unless they get overheated, then watchout, all bets are off. Having your head bolts retorqued again after the overheat might help, but really you should just pony up to have the heads surfaced and put on a fresh set of head gaskets. I also saw scrape marks from when the head gasket recall done (and it obviously wasn't done as well as I would have liked) so I would also expect that if the truck had the head gasket campaign done to it, then the engine would be far more suceptable to this type of failure than a truck that had the right gaskets from the factory. Something for people who fall into this category should think about (especially if you're going to throw a supercharger on the truck!!!).

MTL_4runner

09-20-2007, 08:33 AM

Here's a quick and dirty of how to see if the head is warped.

Sheet of 3/16" window glass used to check (you can see the brinelling marks left by the HG):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketflatnesscheck001Large.jpg

I'm not too worried because the heads are going over to be checked at the machine shop and they'll get resurfaced there too. I'm going to have them hot tanked, pressure tested, decked, valves lapped and the seals replaced. After that I should pretty much be good to go and ready to start putting this pig back together.

mt_goat

10-07-2007, 10:19 AM

MTL_4runner

10-07-2007, 12:39 PM

Wow Jamie I just read this, sorry to see all the troubles. So the theory is the head gasket was causing the over-heating issue? Was there any sign of oil, fuel or exhaust gases in the coolant? Might want to also check for a clogged cat, maybe the AZ over-heating episode melted your cat.

Hey Dale, good to see you over here. No biggie, I'll get it up and running again but it's taking some time to get all the parts together and I'm not in any huge rush. The first overheat likely began to warp the heads slightly so when the waterpump was fixed, it was just a matter of time before the HG blew due to lack of contact force with the gasket (you can see in the pics that it blew on the head side, not on the block side). I could remove the O2 sensors and put a borescope into the cat on one side and used a light on the other side and see if I can see light through it but I want to fix this the HG first and see how it does. I could definately tell the HG was leaking into the coolant because the coolant would heat up extremely fast (which is an indication that you've got exhaust gas leaking into the system). I didn't bother to do an exhaust gas test on the coolant because to me, the way the cooling system built up pressure, it couldn't be anything but a blown HG......and it appears that I was correct. Now I just need to get everything back together and fire it up. :D

MTL_4runner

10-19-2007, 05:55 AM

Well, I've almost finished amassing all my needed parts to finish the job and I just sent my heads out to be rebuilt so I won't get those back until next week. The cost of all the parts is blowing a huge hole in my wallet but I hope this is a "do it once" type of job if done correctly. Originally I was going to try and go with aftermarket stuff but after comparing the OEM stuff with the aftermarket, it really got to be hit or miss. It seems that if the aftermarket parts were made in Japan, they were pretty close if not exactly the same as the OEM part but stuff made in Korea or Taiwan was less than impressive. I'm basically trying to create a list that I would like to have had before I started so if someone needs to do this job in the future, you'll know exactly what to get/replace/rebuild, etc and what parts can be substituted for cheaper aftermarket and what brands you want to look for specifically.

So far I've bought:

Full top end gasket set (OEM Toyota P/N 04112-62071)
I got an aftermarket set from ITM and it would probably have worked fine, but you can see the difference between that and the OEM set. If your on a budget, then I'm sure the ITM set would do the job too since it does come with the correct head gasket that has the top part of the fire ring extended out to the edge of the gasket, just like the OEM does (this is critical or you'll be doing the HG again in another 6 months). The ITM set is also about 1/3 the price of the OEM set so keep that in mind too.

Knock sensor wire (OEM Toyota P/N 82219-34010)
Mine broke very easily when removed, you're playing with fire not to replace it when doing the HG.

(16) Head bolts (OEM Toyota P/N 90910-02077)
I've been told the AJUSA bolts (P/N 81013700) work fine, but I went with the OEM ones even though they are a major ripoff. :spank:

(6) Exhaust heat shield nuts (OEM Toyota P/N 90179-06293)
If you live in a dry climate then yours are probably fine, but let's just say mine were not!

Upper idler bearing #2 (OEM Toyota P/N 13503-62040)
NSK supplied OEM for Toyota (I have not found a specific part number for this yet, post up if you find one)

Lower tension idler bearing #1 (OEM Toyota P/N 13505-62070)
Koyo supplied OEM for Toyota, P/N LAT1002B 77017

Tensioner (PCI P/N 60193)
The OEM Toyota P/N is 13540-62021 and most tensioners for the 5VZ-FE all seem to be made by the same company, but I have yet to figure out which. If you know or find out, please post that info up. You can see a comparison (OEM vs PCI) in the attached pics below so I am quite confident they all come from a single source.

Theromostat and Gasket (OEM Toyota P/N 90916-03075 and 16325-62010)
These are just cheap insurance, don't skimp here.

PCV valve and gasket (OEM Toyota P/N 12204-62010 and 90480-18001)
These are just cheap insurance, don't skimp here.

Waterpump (OEM Toyota P/N 16100-69398)
If you get any aftermarket parts like a water pump or oil pump (my WP was new having been done at the dealer after the first overheat), make sure they are made by Aisin only (it will be stamped right on the part itself).

Timing and Ascessory belts
Also if you get an aftermarket timing belt, make sure to use only Mitsuboshi belts since they also manufacture the ones for Toyota. The ascessory belts are less critical, but again if you want OEM, Mitsuboshi or Denso (Bando) for those too.

These are helpful lists of bearings for cross refernece too:
http://automotivebearings.net/index.html
http://www.sonexauto.ru/cat/roll_perevod/sheet001.htm

MTL_4runner

10-22-2007, 12:54 PM

I just got a call back from the machine shop that is redoing my heads for me. His first comment was that the heads were still in very good shape. He said I should pressure test them just to be sure they're ok (if you go through a severe overheat like I did or lean out the motor bad enough to crack a valve, you should have this done automatically or you could be doing the HG again soon) and they came back fine, so for sure it was the HG that was causing my problem.

I also mentioned having them resurfaced and the guy told me the toyota spec says you can only take off 0.0039" from the head gasket's sealing surface before you need to shim the head (to put it into perspective, the typical piece of white xerox paper is about 0.004" thick so we're talking about the thickness of a sheet of paper being removed before you have problems). If you exceed the 0.0039" of material removed from the head, you'll need to start running custom copper head gaskets to correct the head height (I've found aftermarket copper head gaskets up to about 2mm or 0.08" thick, which would be a good choice for supercharged motors in an effort to reduce the compression to prevent knocking). So by comparison, the stock head gasket compressed is about 1.25mm or about 0.050" thick. So he checked my head on a flat plate and said it was under the flatness spec which is no more than 0.002" side to side and 0.003" lengthwise. He said I also did a good job finishing the head myself (I used a piece of plate glass and 1000 grit sandpaper as a sanding block.....the result of which you could see in the pic above where I was checking flatness myself with a feeler gauge). So we both agreed to skip the resurfacing step in this case.

So he's going to do a valve job on the head and replace the valve seals from the ones I supplied from the top end gasket kit. If you are changing them yourself, be aware that the seals for the intake and exhaust valves are different (gray tops go on the intake side and black tops go on the exhaust side, don't mix them up!). I think the grand total including pressure testing and resetting the valve lash will be about $275 for both heads ($60 for pressure testing, $160 for the hot tanking & valve job and $55 for setting valve lash.....much better than he quoted earlier). If I need new shims he said that might cost extra, but he said he'll do his best to minimize the cost for me (he said if the valves were too long.....which tends to happen after a valve is ground, he can take some off of the valve stem to compensate rather than just needing all new shims at $8 a piece). He said the heads should be ready by Wednesday so I might have some new pics of the reassembly after work and hopefully a running 4runner by perhaps as soon as Monday. :thumbup:

MTL_4runner

10-23-2007, 07:34 AM

I just got the heads back and it looks like my grand total was about $350 + taxes and that was including redoing the heads and I also had the exhaust manifolds resurfaced (which was about $60 of the total before tax) since they had alot of rust on them. The machinist said the valve lash was within spec on everything after the valve job so I didn't need any new shims at all (he said two were out of spec by 0.001", but that is really negligible.....truck still ran great before and the clearance was out of spec by 0.004" or more). :thumbup: I'll try and post some pics of everything when I get home. Now the pressure is all on me to get everything back together!:D

The one thing I can say from this experience is that if you plan on doing this in the future, definately ask your local Toyota dealer who they use for rebuilding cylinder heads and use them only (even if they cost a little more than other shops!). Redoing the heads on a 5VZ-FE is a completely different skill from rebuilding domestic V8 heads (those shops seem to be a dime a dozen). If the shop is good they will follow the FSM rebuilding procedure to the letter and you're heads will come back just like new and ready for you to bolt on.

MTL_4runner

10-25-2007, 10:36 AM

I started putting the heads on last night but getting pics is tough this time of year because the daylight hours are getting very short. I'll take some regardless of lighting and see how they come out. I can only do one side for now because I'm missing 6 head bolts that for some reason are on backorder! Gimme a break.....either they're doing alot of HG jobs or the dealers don't replace the bolts when they're doing a HG job. In any case, at least I can torque one side down and get everything ready for the other side.

I was also cleaning the IAC valve last night and I was really surprised how dirty it was despite me taking what I thought was very good care of keeping everything clean. Again I had no pics due to poor lighting but I if you have the engine this far apart, you should clean the IAC for sure because it's so easy to get to and makes a big difference in the idle quality of the engine. After removing the throttle body from the intake manifold, you need to first remove the 4 screws which hold the IAC to the bottom of the throttle body. Then set the IAC down on the workbench and remove the 2 screws on the actuator. Now use liberal amounts of carb cleaner on the internal valve area along with a toothbrush to clean the valve such that from the acuator side you can spin the valve freely with your fingers (the valve is spring loaded, but should only have minimal resistance when turned). Now that it's clean, reassemble everything and reinstall your throttle body onto the intake manifold.

slosurfer

10-25-2007, 10:43 AM

:thumbup: Thanks for doing such a good job listing everything and documenting it all. If I ever buy a 3.4 to swap in my 4runner, this thread will definately come in handy. :thumbup:

04 Rocko Taco

10-25-2007, 10:47 AM

Looks great Jamie! Can't wait till you have it back up and running. This thread has been a fun one to read along with, GREAT documentation! VERY helpful!

BruceTS

10-25-2007, 05:59 PM

to tell you the truth I never replace the head bolts when rebuilding engines, never was an issue

MTL_4runner

10-25-2007, 06:22 PM

to tell you the truth I never replace the head bolts when rebuilding engines, never was an issue

Bruce, if the engine hadn't severely overheated, I would probably have just reused them, but it seemed like the smart thing to do in this case. I've reused TTY head bolts on other rebuilds myself and had it come out fine too.

Lee

10-26-2007, 05:13 AM

holy crap jamie, i just checked in and you have done a lot of great work! good luck finishing it up man.

MTL_4runner

10-26-2007, 05:49 AM

Thanks Lee, but I'm of the opinion that the thread is worthless without progress pics so here you go.

Here's the heads as they came all pretty from the machine shop
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly018Large.jpg

I also had the exhaust manifolds resurfaced
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly013Large.jpg

I cleaned the surfaces, put in the HG and installed the exhaust manifolds, but didn't torque anything down yet
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly001Large.jpg

Here's a shot of the knock sensors and coolant tube installed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly002Large.jpg

Head bolts torqued to 25 ft-lbs then rotated another 90 + 90 degrees (white lines now face rearward)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly005Large.jpg

Intake cam installed with new allen head bolt, front cam seal and rear plug (cam pulley was just used to check rotation)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly008Large.jpg

Alignment of exhaust cam with intake cam (you align the two dots on the passenger side, single dots on the driver's side)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly010Large.jpg

Finished head and ready for valve cover (don't forget to put oil on the gears and remove the service bolt!!!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly011Large.jpg

Installing spark plug hole seals in valve cover (hammer and a 1/4" extension work great as a drift and won't damage the seal if you slip)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly016Large.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly017Large.jpg

More to come tonight.

04 Rocko Taco

10-26-2007, 06:01 AM

Looks great Jamie!

nrgetic99

10-26-2007, 06:32 AM

Speaking as someone who just replaced a water pump and at the same time, by way of insurance, replaced thermostat, timing belt, #1 idler, (#2 idler was good, I am thinking it may have been replaced already ) and tensioner at the same time due to not wanting to do this again, I can attest top the quality of OEM parts.

I am lucky enough (or smart enough) to have negotiated dealer prices for ALL my Toyota parts needs so on average, I apy about 65% of retail hence I can afford to use factory parts.

Another reason to replace all of the above is now I have 217l lbft and red locktite on the crankshaft pulley bolt, I don't see it coming off again anytime soon :D

It is trul amazing how quiet the vehicle is now for a 9 yr old truck with 150k

David

MTL_4runner

10-27-2007, 06:26 AM

I am lucky enough (or smart enough) to have negotiated dealer prices for ALL my Toyota parts needs so on average, I apy about 65% of retail hence I can afford to use factory parts.

Ok, David, I'm coming to you for parts next time! :P

I promised more so here we go.....

Here's where I stopped Thursday night
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly019Large.jpg

Started stripping cams from new head and installed rear plug
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly026Large.jpg

Installed new front cam seal, just waiting for head bolts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly031Large.jpg

Installed the exhaust manifold studs (I ran a thread chaser on all of them)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly025Large.jpg

Put antiseize on the studs and loosely installed exhaust manifold and cleaned HG surface with brake cleaner
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly028Large.jpg

Closeup of new HG (block side)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly022Large.jpg

Closeup of new HG (head side)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly023Large.jpg

Cleaned block with brake cleaner and placed new HG
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly024Large.jpg

New head in place but waiting for head bolts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly029Large.jpg

My $1000 waterpump installed :shake:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly032Large.jpg

Here's how it sits until next Wednesday
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/HeadGasketReassembly030Large.jpg

MTL_4runner

10-28-2007, 10:06 AM

It's getting close to putting on the intake and timing belt so I wanted to post a few reference photos so people could see the routing of the knock sensor wire and the alignment of the timing marks. They are marked left and right cam according to how the timing belt is marked for proper alignment (I'm not dyslexic, the engine is viewed left/right as you sit in the vehicle not from the front of the motor).

mkgarrison5

11-01-2007, 07:00 AM

dang jamie you know what you are doing thats for sure.. nice write up and picks.. this has to be the post of the year award right here. good work bro

mkgarrison5

11-01-2007, 07:03 AM

MTL_4runner

11-03-2007, 04:30 PM

btw jamie, you mentioned that your intake was a lot dirtier than you had originally thought. without taking the intake off, how would you have cleaned it now that you know what you were doing wasnt exactly cleaning like you had thought? would seafoam thru the pcv valve helped your issue? hope this makes sense lol still half asleep

I know what you meant, but really the only part that was really dirty was the IAC which is easy to remove and clean when you remove the throttle body. You could probably remove/clean/reinstall the TB & IAC in about 1 hour, even if you were working slowly.

MTL_4runner

11-03-2007, 04:55 PM

Ok, so I've been busy with work but I'm still working hard to finish before the temps really drop so I apologize if I don't have more pics of the reassembly part. I was rushing a bit and it was taking alot of time to free up all the rusted parts, clean them and finally reassemble everything with anti-seize so I don't have to fight with everything as badly if I need to work on stuff in the future.

Anyway, here's more pics.....

I finally have the driver's side head torqued down, cams and valve cover, intake and lower plenum installed here.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly007Large.jpg

Coils & plugs installed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly006Large.jpg

Before the lower plenum goes on you might want to just double check your injector resistances, mine we all 13.5 ohms (the FSM states approx 13.8 ohms is fine) so the check out ok. The passenger side is a little easier to get to so it's not as critical to do them before everything is installed except if one actually tests bad and needs to be changed.

During the assembly a 3/8" 20-100 ft-lb torque wrench will do almost every bolt on the engine (except the crank pulley)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly005Large.jpg

Here's my homemade SST for holding the crank pulley (less than $5 and it worked like a charm)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly004Large.jpg

Balancer off (holes were badly rusted so I had to clean them out with a 3/8" drill bit)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly003Large.jpg

Tip: If you live in a rust belt like me, you'll want to put a little anti-seize on the nose of the crankshaft to keep the balancer from welding itself to the crank. I used loctite blue (medium strength.....don't use the permanent red stuff or it'll be a major PITA to undo) on the crank pulley bolt, #1 and #2 idler bearings before torquing everything to spec (specs are 217, 30 & 30 ft-lbs respectively). Then after you get everything tightened up, fill the holding holes with RTV (you can then remove the RTV easily during the next timing belt job).

New #1 idler and old water pump residue
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly002Large.jpg

I replaced the tensioner as well (no pic yet), but one of the bolts gave me major heartburn when it snapped off in the oil pump housing (it was the one visible in the above pic). Thank God it was reasonably accessable so I was able to drill it out from the top and remove it with some vice-grips (I still had to remove the #1 idler and cam sensor to get the drill at the proper angle). The new tensioner came with new bolts so that wasn't an issue after all and of course those were thoroughly covered in anti-seize before install too.

New #2 idler and left/right cam timing marks (left and right are with respect to sitting in the vehicle, not standing in front!!!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly001Large.jpg

That's all I have so far, more tomorrow.

Lee

11-04-2007, 05:05 AM

BruceTS

11-04-2007, 06:40 AM

Balancer off (holes were badly rusted so I had to clean them out with a 3/8" drill bit)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/mtl_4runner/Head%20Gasket/4runnerfinalreassembly003Large.jpg

Tip: If you live in a rust belt like me

HOLY crap!!!!! that thing is corroded. looks like it came off the bottom of the ocean! I don't think mine even has a rust spot on it........

MTL_4runner

11-04-2007, 07:29 AM

HOLY crap!!!!! that thing is corroded. looks like it came off the bottom of the ocean! I don't think mine even has a rust spot on it........

:spit:

Well, it's definately been in salty water more than a few times. Welcome to the good old northeast where vehicles are rapidly devoured by cancerous rust. The scary part is my truck was 100% rust free until 2002 so that's only 5 winters worth!!! This is also why I hose down all the bolts with WD40 throughout the winter. I also cake everything in anti-seize during reassembly for the exact same reason. It is just plain brutal on anything mechanical.

MTL_4runner

11-04-2007, 07:37 AM

nice work jamie! very interesting.

what kind of torque wrench is that? i have one i got from harbor freight, definitely an el cheapo, but ive only had to use it once.

just curious what brand and what you paid? thanks. good luck wrapping this up!

That's a Husky brand torque wrench ($69 @ Home Depot).
After I bought it I found out that Canadian Tire carries the exact same ones.

mkgarrison5

11-05-2007, 10:54 AM

are the drive belts really that large? lol the ones in my tacoma are half that size

MTL_4runner

11-07-2007, 12:33 PM

I'll know if it will start or not tonight.....it's almost back together 100%

I'm just putting these part numbers for the ascessory belts so I don't forget.

A/C Belt 91840-08708 * Denso (Bando)
Alt Belt 90080-91090-83 * Mitsuboshi
P/S Belt 99364-21070-83 * Mitsuboshi

MTL_4runner

11-07-2007, 02:49 PM

OK, it's official, it runs!!!

I changed the oil and filter (thanks to Andy I used a ford Taurus filter and it fits in there just fine). I also filled the cooling system with water at first just in case I had leaks, but after the first firing and everything sealed up good I did a drain and refill with Toyota red coolant. The engine fired right up on the first try (I held the pedal to the floor while starting just to clear the injectors out). Smoked for a little while (engine really stank because the anti-seize was burning off too). The only thing I noticed while it was idling was that it didn't idle down like it should have (ie it was staying around 1000-1500 rpm at idle...engine was totally smooth and no valve ticking at all) but that wasn't going to stop me from taking it out for a spin. So I took it around the block slowly at first and getting progressively harder on the throttle and I must say I am impressed. It almost drives like a new truck and has plenty of punch when you get on the skinny pedal and I didn't feel any misfiring at all and no check engine lights. The temp gauge stayed rock solid at right below the halfway mark and no signs of any overheat even when I gave it wide open throttle up a hill. :thumbup:

So now if I can just figure out what is causing the high idle I'm going to declare this bad boy fixed. :king:

Lee

11-08-2007, 04:00 AM

CONGRATS MAN! :) :)

could it be your TPS?

04 Rocko Taco

11-08-2007, 04:31 AM

Great Jamie!
been a good while coming!! Congrats!!!!

MTL_4runner

11-08-2007, 05:42 AM

could it be your TPS?

Thanks Lee and Chris.

It could be a whole bunch of things, but I certainly have my suspicions. The first culprit is the IAC which I should not have opened up to clean until after I have the engine back up and running. I am not totally convinced that I got the IAC back together correctly......there's a way to check it via the FSM and it's easy so I'll do that tonight (I just wish I had a good one to compare it to). The other possibilities could be a vacuum leak, vacuum hose routing, TPS, MAF you name it. I'll check all the vacuum hoses and intake gaskets tonight with a can of carb cleaner. It's so close to running perfect I can taste it so it's killing me not to be able to start driving it right away. :shake:

mkgarrison5

11-08-2007, 07:54 AM

sweet jaimie.. sweet.. this is the write up of the year lol

Ian Rogers

11-08-2007, 05:44 PM

this is a sweet write up .... thanks for taking the time to do it

Lee

11-09-2007, 08:43 PM

jamie any answers on the high idle?

BruceTS

11-09-2007, 08:54 PM

everytime I clean my TB it'll run with a high Idle, sometimes it takes a few days to return to normal, other times it may take a few weeks. I have never bothered to see why this is happening, since it has always gone away on it's own.

MTL_4runner

11-10-2007, 10:50 AM

jamie any answers on the high idle?

I did a little exploring with some carb cleaner today, but no vacuum leaks found.
I'll try and do some testing on the IAC tomorrow.

everytime I clean my TB it'll run with a high Idle, sometimes it takes a few days to return to normal, other times it may take a few weeks. I have never bothered to see why this is happening, since it has always gone away on it's own.

Thanks for the heads up Bruce. I'm worried that I still didn't get the IAC back together the way it should be (since the motor runs flawlessly other than a high idle) so I really need to take it apart again and see if that is the issue or not. Any chance you might have a spare motor around with a throttle body attached that you'd be willing to remove, take off the IAC and snap a pic inside so I can see where the valve sits at rest?

Anyone else that would be willing to snap a pic of the IAC for me, I'd be immensely grateful. :thumbup:

BruceTS

11-10-2007, 04:43 PM

I'll look tomorrow, I should have an auto TB inside my garage.....

MTL_4runner

11-11-2007, 06:53 AM

I'll look tomorrow, I should have an auto TB inside my garage.....

Thanks Bruce, that would be extremely helpful.

MTL_4runner

11-15-2007, 07:07 AM

Bruce was not able to find a spare TB to snap a photo of and I still need a pic of that IAC so if someone is going to do a full cleaning on their throttle body and remove the IAC I'd be most appreciative if you could post a pic. All you need to do is remove the throttle body and the 4 screws holding the IAC to the TB (you do not need to take anything else apart!) and snap a pic of the valve inside. I haven't had time to try and fix the truck anymore since I've been busy with work and installing a new kitchen for my wife (I tell you the projects never end!!!).

MTL_4runner

11-25-2007, 06:04 PM

I've been busy completly remodelling my kitchen for the last 2 weeks, but I finally had a day above freezing (it was 34F today :clap: ) so I went out and decided I would solve the 4runner idle problem!

The last time I worked on the 4runner the idle was too high and I wasn't sure why but I suspected the IAC. So I proceeded to take off the TB and doublecheck everything on the IAC again. Upon removing the IAC I tried to see if there was some way I assembled it together wrong but there was simply no way to install either the solenoid or the spring side incorrectly.

Next I double checked that the valve was clean and rotated freely. So I sprayed a bit of carb cleaner in the valve and rotated the solenoid side by hand. It felt a bit sticky so I sprayed a bunch of WD40 in there and checked it again....this time it rotated much more smoothly (perhaps part of the issue). Next I reinstalled the solenoid and spring ends making sure to RTV them back in place (I wanted to make sure there were no air leaks causing issues).

Then I used a 12V battery (I actually comadeered the one out of my son's electric car for bench testing) and hooked it up to make sure the valve was opening and closing properly per the FSM and it was (see attached pic for testing), but I thought perhaps it wasn't able to close down enough so I adjusted the return spring to close the valve more. Finally I reinstalled everything on the truck and took it for a spin. To my surprise it actually warmed up and started idling too low :shake: . At this point I knew I had it licked, but that my own adjustment to the return spring was the problem. :king:

So I removed the TB again, adjusted the return spring back to the factory setting (ie where the screw marks originally were) and reinstalled everything. Sure enough the truck slowly started learning the new setting and the idle returned right where it should have (about 700-750 RPM). After about 1 hour of driving the engine just purrs like a kitten now and it's got some nice punch to it when you get on the skinny pedal. :thumbup:

So the problem is solved and Bruce's comment below seems to be right on the money about the truck needing time to relearn the idle setting. I'm not sure if the IAC valve itself sticks or the bearings are somewhat worn and provinding the friction, but in any case you can always get a new IAC if yours isn't going back to normal after a few days. Anyone that's interested, the P/N is 22270-62050 and they're about $230 new from the dealer.

everytime I clean my TB it'll run with a high Idle, sometimes it takes a few days to return to normal, other times it may take a few weeks. I have never bothered to see why this is happening, since it has always gone away on it's own.

MTL_4runner

12-05-2007, 09:39 AM

Just wanted to do a followup to say that the truck's been performing flawlessly still since I finished the rebuild and fixed the idling problem. I have absolutely no signs of overheating now, it's got good power, good idle quality at stoplights, decent fuel economy (it's a pig on gas in winter compared to my Civic, but what do you expect, it's a 2+ ton truck) and overall I'm very happy with how it turned out and definately hope to keep it for a few more years still (it's certainly nice not having payments!). Hopefully this writeup helps someone else out if they need to rebuild the top end on their 3.4L too.

So do I get the writeup of the year award or what?! :laugh:

MTL_4runner

12-07-2007, 05:37 AM

This is just friggin hilarious......I think I jinxed myself with the last post.

I remote started the 4runner this morning since it was a nice temperate -20C outside and I wanted to see how well the heat was working now. The truck started fine so I took a few more minutes to get ready before I went out the door. After about 5-6 mins as i was walking out the door I heard the RPM of the truck was quite high even for a fast idle so I went over and looked at the tach which read around 2k RPM. So I hopped in the truck and burped the gas a few times to see if that would initiate a good idle again. Nope, it wanted to hold 2K for some reason so I proceeded to brush the snow/ice off the truck and I figured it would return to normal sometime during my morning commute. So when I finished cleaning off the truck, I hopped in, put it in drive and started to work. Well I might have gotten 100 yards down the road and I saw that the temp needle was above the 1/2 way mark. I was like WTF!? I didn't want to take any chances and drove it right back to my house (and lucky I did too because by the time I had pulled into the driveway, the temp needle was just reaching the upper red zone). So I popped the hood and I immediately checked the overflow and found that there was no antifreeze in the overflow bottle (I also looked at where it was started in the driveway and it there was antifreeze on the ground there too.....so it may have gotten pushed out of the overflow bottle or it may have had a leak.....still not sure at this point). In any case now I've got some more fun diagnosing what happened this weekend. Until then I get to drive the old Civic again......Yeah Fun!.....this is starting to get a bit old now (especially in the winter). :shake:

04 Rocko Taco

12-07-2007, 05:41 AM

Jamie, that sucks bud. Good luck figuring it out, I can only guess at your frustration at this point...

mt_goat

12-08-2007, 09:30 AM

Oh no, that doesn't sound good. :(

MTL_4runner

12-09-2007, 07:32 PM

I think I found the cause.....there isn't supposed to be any ice crystals in your coolant are there?!

:laugh: ......I'm being just a wee bit sarcastic here.

This really sucks and hopefully it will weather the storm of cold weather until the temp goes above freezing on Friday and I can drain the coolant and add more concentrate to the mix (unfortunately Sat would have been perfect weather for a coolant change, but I spent it putting up Christmas lights instead). I don't know how the heck that happened, but it certainly explains why it overheated temporarily and then worked fine after a few minutes or so and also why it worked flawlessly right up until the mercury disappeared from the thermostat. I just hope there's enough coolant in there to prevent the system from getting any damage from the expanding ice crystals. I opened up the radiator cap just to relieve any pressure in there. It was almost -25 outside tonight and I could feel the coolant was like thick slush, but not frozen solid by any means so I have my fingers crossed for sure. You just gotta love winters in Canada. :shake:

Lee

12-09-2007, 07:59 PM

honestly you should probably get rid of the red thats in it and just use pink. that will at least eliminate this variable, and you wont have to worry about the mixture.

good luck man!

MTL_4runner

12-10-2007, 04:53 AM

honestly you should probably get rid of the red thats in it and just use pink. that will at least eliminate this variable, and you wont have to worry about the mixture.

good luck man!

Totally agree lee, I'm going to get 3 bottles of pink at Toyota this week. I had some red left over from before I switched over (way prior to the head gasket rebuild) and honestly I totally forgot to do another drain and fill with pink again. I also need to switch back over to synthetic since I'm still running dino oil and the original filter after I first fired it up. Next Friday's looking like a TLC day for the 4runner and hopefully there's no damage done in the process. I tell you working on stuff up here north of the border tells you that Canada is definately the acid test for durability on just about any machine!

Lee

12-10-2007, 05:12 AM

:lol:

we JUST finished sas-ing my friend's 98 4runner in my other friends small garage. we were freezing our asses off for the first week or so until the kid whos truck it was decided to buy a propane heater... its like 40,000 btu's or something :laugh:

that thing worked so well that we would actually have to turn it off because we'd start to sweat! i recommend hitting lowes or home depot to get one if you have a chance, makes all the difference in the world!

MTL_4runner

09-23-2008, 08:39 AM

I finally decided to just pull the motor and swap in another on the 2nd go around. I got a used motor with 90k on it (it purred like a kitten and the inside was spotless.....someone's been using synthetic in there for it's entire lifetime no doubt). I should have some pics of it going in soon since it needs to be running before the snow flies.

YotaFun

09-23-2008, 01:10 PM

What ca going to do with the old engine? Rebuild it and sell it?
What made you decided to just go ahead a swap engine, I presume it overheated again?

MTL_4runner

09-24-2008, 09:09 AM

I decided that if I was going to have to redo the HG again, the best option was to just swap used motors (I found an excellent used motor that someone took great care of for $750) and rebuild the other while it's out of the truck. This will get me up and running quickly with minimal problems since I heard the new motor running when it came in. If I have issues with one I'll have a spare ready to go in again. Once I sell the truck I'll sell the second motor too. I'm looking to get a new Highlander or 4runner in the next year or so anyway so this isn't going to be a long term project or anything.....work and kids take up all my free time right now.

YotaFun

09-24-2008, 11:59 AM

I see I see.
I would like to do the same, get another motor and get it all pristine and what not and then throw it in and rebuild mine as well.
I won't be getting rid of my truck anytime so it would be nice to have as little down time as possible if something were to happen internally.

4runnerchevy

09-24-2008, 05:08 PM

MTL_4runner

10-04-2008, 02:33 PM

Anyone done a motor swap and know an easy way to get at those last two bolts at the top of the belhousing?

That darn crossover pipe makes it nearly impossible to see or get at them from the top. If you go at it from the bottom, you'd need like a 3ft extension to hit them and then I'd worry if I could get enough torque on it to break them loose. It's frustrating because those are the only thing standing between me and a new motor being dropped in.

Thanks in advance.

arjan

10-04-2008, 03:19 PM

Jamie, I've taken my engine and transmission out on seperate ocassions. I recall using a deep socket up top, couple that to a ujoint mathingy (don't know what the official name is) then I used 3 extensions and had the ratchet near the rear crossmember.
Mine wasn't torqued down all that bad, once it broke loose I could back the bolts out very easily. I actually had my cordless dril with a 1/2" driver in it.
Makes short work of 15 or so turns ;)

When you replace the motor, watch for the dowel pins.
When I originally replaced the engine, the old engine had the dowel pins. Then engine I put in, didn't have them, they stayed on the tranny.

Just a heads up.

Arjan

MTL_4runner

10-04-2008, 03:33 PM

Arjan, thanks, that's what I thought. Looks like I'll need to buy a 24" extension for me to hit those bolts that far up there. I've been wanting a good snap-on extension set anyway so this will give me an excuse now. I have snap on swivel impact sockets (see pic) which are a complete dream to work with when doing any serious engine or tranny work. I used them constantly when I was wrenching for a living and now I'd still put them as one of those must have tools in my toolbox.

arjan

10-04-2008, 03:48 PM

MTL_4runner

10-04-2008, 04:31 PM

Those swivels are nice, basically a cv joint instead of a ujoint style isn't it?

One thing I enjoyed when taking the tranny off, was that the threads of the bolts don't protrude past the belhousing. That way you don't back the dirt into the bell housing threads. Mine were all easy once I broke them loose.

The dustcover bolts I actually also back off with extensions from the front. Quite easy once the radiator was out.

Yeah, they are a CV type design (see pic) which allows you to use them with an impact gun or an air ratchet which makes it alot faster to swap the best tool for the job.

The dust cover for the flywheel on mine was impossible to hit all the bolts without pulling the front diff first. I'll say it was definately one heck of a job to get the entire thing torn down this far (not a job for your average weekend warrior or something even a skilled person should try on a daily driver in a weekend). It will be nice to have the motors swapped so I can get to the fun part of putting it all back together again. At least now I have a chance to rebuild my starter, replace the rear main seal and replace the front diff seals as a precautionary measure while it's all easy to get at.

arjan

10-04-2008, 05:23 PM

MTL_4runner

10-04-2008, 06:24 PM

Wow, I am glad I have a 5spd. I started 4pm and finished the engine swap half past midnight. A buddy of mine helped from about 7pm onwards.
We did have a forklift at our disposal, which helped a lot.

I did the 5spd tranny swap in about 3 hours by myself.

Did you swap a 5-spd for another 5-spd? or auto for 5-spd?
The 5-spd would definately be alot easier than an auto.

arjan

10-04-2008, 08:12 PM

5spd for 5spd. It's a silly story.

When I replaced the engine, the transmission became quite noisy. I thought I had damaged the front end of the tranny in the swap and picked up the tranny which belonged to the engine I put to begin with. It cost me $350 at the time, I figured it wasn't worth taking the other tranny apart. It's also my daily driver, missing a days work for taking a tranny apart costs me more.

Anyway, when I took the old tranny off, I noticed the alignmend (dowel I think they're called) were not there. I looked at the old engine and the tranny about to go in, and they both had them.
I overlooked that bolted the engine to the transmission without alignment pins, putting it slightly off. That made the input bearing quite noisy obviously.
Al said and done, I sold the other tranny for $250. I was into it for about 3hrs and $100
The $350 was a write off for the business, and I sold it privately. ;)

The original engine was knocking at 150k Km. I don't think the prev. owners did a good job on oil changes. When I opened that engine up after the swap, it was all gummed up with old oil.
At 150K, the timing belt was due, and I am sure the clutch was wearing. For $1600 I bought an engine (and later the tranny) with 20k km on them. Clutch and timing belt were dealt with. Getting those done would almost cost the same most likely.

I don't mind engine, tranny, axle swaps etc. Engine work is to finicky for my liking.

Nowadays I even have an hoist available at my uncle place. They have it for their kids so they can work on their old vw's. You need an complete shop to keep one of those running it seems :D

The pic shows how I go about changing the rear axle. The actuator on the elocker was bad (not fixable, I have it taken apart), the axle bearing was bad because the seal had been leaking for a while. I picked up a complete axle for $450, not worth the labour to get the other one fixed imo.

Too bad you're so far away, I would gladly help you pull the motor. I actually enjoy doing that sort of stuff every once in a while.

mt_goat

10-05-2008, 06:52 AM

4runnerchevy

10-05-2008, 07:03 AM

MTL_4runner

10-05-2008, 05:06 PM

Arjan, lucky dog, that's pretty much a full blown auto bay at your disposal.
I wish I did have more help but I'll still get it done solo, just may take longer.

Thanks Dale and Kevin, looks like extensions are the best way to get those bolts off.

MTL_4runner

10-11-2008, 06:59 PM

Ok, I finally got some more time to work on the swap and with about 24" worth of cobbled together extensions I was able to break loose those top tranny bolts from underneath. I've got the old engine on a stand (I'll take pics of the HG area that went) for disassembly. I spent a little while prepping the new motor to go in again (swapping over newer parts, doing the timing belt, water pump, etc). The new engine is on the hoist and should be ready to go in tomorrow. I'd like to see it fire up by Monday if I have my way. I'll try and post some more pics of the process as well.

4runnerchevy

10-11-2008, 07:07 PM

Glad you got those stubborn bolts, :clap:

MTL_4runner

10-12-2008, 05:28 PM

I was bad and didn't take pics but the new motor is finally in and about 60% hooked up and ready to roll.
I'm hoping to finish the rest tomorrow.

Sadly I can't remember which bolts went where on the belhousing and to make it even more confusing I have a spare motor which came with bolts as well (but it was a manual so the belhousings may be different) so I have double sets floating around the garage. Anyone remember which how many long and how many short there are? (there are 6 total bolts on the belhousing but I have bolts from both an auto and a manual tranny floating around my shop so I'm a bit confused) or are they all the same size on an auto tranny? (ie are they all short ones) Does a manual tranny have both short and long belhousing bolts? How many of each? Any help would be most appreciated.

arjan

10-13-2008, 07:47 AM

Sorry Jamie, can't help you with that one at this moment. I recall the 2 that hold the starter on were longer, and the two at the top. That was for a 5 spd though.
I think when they protrude about 3/4 inch each (or at least protrude equally) then you should be good to go.

MTL_4runner

10-13-2008, 04:02 PM

I figured out my own answer and it turns out on an automatic tranny the bolts are all the same size (except the starter) and it's the shorter ones. The manual tranny uses the different size bolts both long and short.

I didn't get any pics because it was going to slow me down too much, but I finally got the new engine completely hooked up and when I turned the key, it roared to life right away!!! I filled it with the Toyota pink coolant this time for trouble-free winter use. :shake: I wasn't able to take it for a spin yet since I didn't have the 4WD hooked up yet but the engine came right up to operating temp and purrs like a kitten at idle. No CELs, no vacuum leaks, good oil pressure, looks like we did alright on this one. Can't wait to have this finished so I have a 4WD vehicle for when the snow fles because as good as the Civic is on gas, it sucks in winter and any sort of snowy or icy conditions.

I still need to replace the heater core because I've been having trouble with that prior and I want great heat on those -40 days so spending a few more hours getting it back to 100% will be well worth the effort I'm sure.

MTL_4runner

10-24-2008, 02:34 PM

Lol, this is almost getting comical. I've had the motor in for a little while now and I've been driving it around and working on getting inspected again. The other day I went under the vehicle to have a look for leaks and I found fresh oil where I didn't want to.....coming from the weep hole between the engine and the tranny. I suspect what happened was that I drove the rear main seal in too far when I installed it (I remember seeing it was in a bit farther than I wanted but I figured it would still seal fine.....hindsight says pay attention to your gut feel). I'm not too happy about having to pull this bugger again but it's enough of a leak that I don't really feel comfortable just leaving it all winter. So out it comes again. I'm hoping I can do it all in a day because all the parts have been swaped over and I know it runs great. I'm going to double check the front crank seal as well just to be sure it's not leaking either. Let this be a lesson folks, DO NOT DRIVE THE OIL SEALS BEYOND THE EDGE OF THE MATING SURFACE!!!! I'll try and take some pics this time since someone up above wants me to get practice on pulling motors. :laugh: On the bright side I've got all the tools and the skills.....just need to find the time. :D

I still need to replace the windshield, replace the rear brakes, change the rear axle seals, change the heater core, change the blower fan, remount my snow tires and it should be good almost 100% again. :P

MTL_4runner

10-25-2008, 08:28 AM

I have been cleaning up the garage of all the parts stripped off the motors and swapped between them so at least I have two complete motors. The seals on the old motor were the originals from the factory so I figured it would be helpful for people to see what it looks like when they are correct versus what will cause a leak.After seeing the pics for these I'm 100% the issue was the seal was driven too far, c'est la vie right?! :D I just wish it wasn't the hardest seal in the whole vehicle to access. :shake: Anyway here are the good ones and I'll take pics of the bad when I pull the motor again.

arjan

10-25-2008, 11:19 AM

Wow you'll be an engine replacement expert by the time you're done. :)

Sorry to hear your ongoing headache. That 4Runner almost seems jinxed.

MTL_4runner

10-25-2008, 01:21 PM

I don't think the truck's jinxed so much as I'm out of practice rebuilding motors and was rushed for time (if I was doing it for a living I'd probably be starving this week). It was just a dumb mistake and I should have known better, but I was installing the motor on the weekend and the dealer's parts counter up here isn't even open weekends to get a new seal (that's if they had one in stock) or I might have changed it before the install based on gut feel. I'll get it back to 100% again and it will be so worth it to have a solid vehicle to drive around during winter in. I'm going to see if I can get it turned around in a day this time because I definately know the ropes on pulling this motor quickly now.

MTL_4runner

11-23-2008, 07:42 AM

Well, the motor has been in for almost a month now and despite being used, it runs like a million bucks now. The oil leak from the rear main isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be and hasn't even lost enough oil to register on the dipstick in a month (although still annoying to have any leaks). So even though I have the new seal already, with the onset of winter I'm just going to leave it as a project for next summer instead. I'll look at rebuilding and selling the extra motor if the new one proves flawless all winter.

MTL_4runner

03-17-2009, 09:27 AM

I figured I would chime in again on my thread and say that the motor has worked great for the past few months and made it through the winter just fine with the Toyota pink antifreeze (I won't use the red anymore.....too much guessing and freezing point is critical up north). I had a small leak on the rear main seal for a while (I drove the seal in too far so be careful if you are doing this too) but it appears to have become negligible or stopped completely. Great to be driving the 4runner again though since we had another snowy winter up here and I don't think driving the Civic in that stuff would have done any wonders for my sanity!

gpcollen

03-31-2009, 02:25 PM

Excellent to hear MTL. Does it get any better than tooling around in the 4runner in the snow. Sometimes the wife asks me where I went after snow blowing and moving the cars around....

ubermoto

12-21-2009, 10:03 PM

What a great post Jamie. Best post ever!!! Thanks for all the pics and part numbers!

I now have the confidence I need to tackle this project since the headgasket in our 96 4Runner just blew last weekend after 196k miles. Since it's my wife's daily driver, I need to get it back on the road quickly, I have located a used 5VZ that I will be swapping out. This will allow me the chance to repair the HG on the old engine while it is on an engine stand; crucial for me on a job like this so I don't rush things. The repaired engine will then be the spare that can go into either my Tacoma or her 4Runner!

I actually hydro-locked the engine when I tried to start the engine after she had parked it. Hit the starter and ka-chunk! D'oh! The good thing is it didn't fire before it seized, so it was only the starter motor pushing the engine. I really hope I didn't bend a rod. If I did, it will get a full rebuild I guess...

So did your head gasket actually blow a second time when it overheated? Was the verdict that it overheated due to water jacket/passages clogged with frozen coolant? I really hate it when stuff like that happens.

Anyway, thanks again for a great post!

Cheers, :thumbup: :thumbup:

Jeremy

MTL_4runner

12-22-2009, 01:29 PM

I figured that if I went through it, I might as well document the process to help others later. Yes, the HG blew a second time from my own stupidity (didn't put in enough coolant and it froze). The coolant didn't freeze solid but it was like a very thick slushy when I stuck my finger into the radiator to see what happened. Obviously the coolant couldn't circulate and the HG blew again from overheating. That's why I switched to the Toyota Super Long Life Coolant (pink) and never had issues again even in -40 degree weather. The rebuilt HG actually performed flawlessly until it overheated again.

If you have any questions on any of it, feel free to ask.

BlueGTS

02-07-2010, 10:23 AM

Thanks for taking the time to document everything. I am not sure that people realize how annoying it is taking the pictures when greesy and in the middle of the project. Then having to upload them and caption takes some effort. Hats off to you. :wrenchin:

Here is what I found last weekend. I wonder which cylinder had the HG leak?

http://www.yotatech.com/picture.php?albumid=1527&pictureid=8716

ubermoto

02-07-2010, 10:29 AM

Wow... Those are some clean pistons!!! You runnin' a water injection system or what???

BlueGTS

02-07-2010, 10:46 AM

Yeah I have the awsome HG water injection system. Its a little hard to start but it gets those pistons extra clean. :rofl:

mastacox

02-07-2010, 10:55 AM

Yup I had a steam cleaned cylinder when I did my head gasket too:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l70/mastacox/Engine%20Rebuild/Day%203/IMG_0158.jpg

Head gasket trouble- time for a top-end rebuild (http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=7462.0)

BlueGTS

02-07-2010, 10:59 AM

Took away some of the guess work when you have half a cup of swamp water on top of a shiny piston.

MTL_4runner

02-08-2010, 05:12 AM

Yeah I have the awsome HG water injection system. Its a little hard to start but it gets those pistons extra clean. :rofl:

Also gives off a nice sweet smell so you know it's working. :laugh:

Glad the pics helped, that's exacly why I took them for everyone.

rworegon

10-31-2010, 07:41 PM

Jamie, a year ago this thread was invaluable while doing a timing belt change. Now, I'm back into the engine with a HG leak (caught it before it overheated). The HG leak started after doing the timing belt. :( Again, the documentation is a great help!

A question: What did you use to seal the water bypass tube? Toyota calls for Seal Packing 08826-00100....I'm wondering if there are other options.

MTL_4runner

11-01-2010, 03:03 PM

A question: What did you use to seal the water bypass tube? Toyota calls for Seal Packing 08826-00100....I'm wondering if there are other options.

I just used Permatex Ultra Black.....make sure to clean all surfaces well beforehand and let it dry 24hrs before use.

Let us know how it goes when you start getting into it and glad the photos helped!

rworegon

11-12-2010, 03:38 PM

Jamie, well three weeks later I'm all done! Runs great with no check engine lights. Had the heads re-done, injectors cleaned, new timing belt, new knock wire, etc. It certainly is a lot of work, but well worth the big smile when it fired right up this morning! The whole project went quite smooth and the labor savings allowed me to expand my tool kit. :thumbup:

MTL_4runner

11-13-2010, 04:44 PM

redfox

02-08-2011, 01:51 AM

MTL_4runner

02-08-2011, 02:45 PM

hi iam new to this forum and read this thread twice as part of my hg research.first time i only read it to the point you got it running and tought everything was great after that for years to come ,second time i noticed that there are more pages on the thread and i am sorry to hear that you had more trouble with it.anyhow you seem to be a patient guy about it.
very nice work on the thread jamie!big help in case i decide to do it.
so here is my story:
i have a 95 t-100 with arund 125k on it which always been great to me never had any major problem and well maintened at least since 98.i decided to fix the leaking valvecover gasket which made a mess of the outside of the engine/i guess this does not fall under "well maintened"/.anyway i got so far into it that the intake plenum is off to get to everything properly,replacing wp and all waterhoses/i belive i found 10 of them/.i am thinking to do hg as preventative maintenance altough never had any problems except for one time when temp gauge went above normal/did not redline/ due to a stock thermostat when coolant was flushed and replace at 85k.and lately water seems to disappear from overflow tank but never looked into this because it was very slow and never seen or smelled any coolant.i believe the hg is still factory.how can i tell if it is not?were all year 3.4's included in the hg recall?i know preventative maintenance for hg may sound unusual but i have big plans for my truck and tring to fix and replace anything questionable. i am going to use the truck in a cross-country rally in amateur class in europe.one of the reason i have chosen this truck was the 3.4 that has enough hp and tourqe.but now i am starting to have second toughts about it especially since i talked to machine shop people and they said this was one of the biggest pieces of crap toyota ever made, they see cracked heads 9 out of 10 and it would be a big can of worm to open .i was shocked when i heard that.anyway i still love my 3.4 it is just so crisp and punchy.
so i would like to hear anyones opinion if should the existing hg will do fine as long as my cooling system does not fail or will a new hg hold up better?
incase i decide to do the job i would like to have questions on the how...
thanks for reading my post :thumbup: :thumbup:

Yes, it was quite a process and just redoing the heads would have worked great if I hadn't had a terrible lapse of judgement and improperly mixed the coolant and it froze (thus blowing my HG's all over again). In hindsight I should have just gone with the Super Long Life (pink) coolant which is premixed and I'd still be driving that other motor today. Anyway the motor I swapped in works like a million bucks and I'm driving the 4runner now because it's better than my 3/4 ton diesel Silverado in the snow (too much torque :D ).

As far as your problem, I think the machine shop people are either full of it or they are confusing the motor with the 3.0L because the 3.4L is a very solid motor as long as you don't overheat it. Mileage normally isn't a concern on these motors and 125k should just be getting broken in. What does concern me is the coolant disappearing from the overflow tank. You'll need to figure out where it's going in order to be sure it's not head gasket issue (the early 5VZ motors often had coolant leaks at the back of the motor by the firewall). There's a dye you can add to the coolant to find external leaks (using a blacklight) and there's a test you can do on the coolant to check for internal leaks such as a blown HG. The internal leak test isn't always conclusive so if you can't find any external leaks and the internal leak is negative you may still have a blown HG.

You can ask the dealer if your truck ever had the HG's replaced (it will be in their service records). To me, if you were going to rely on the truck for something like a cross country rally and you had questions about the HG, I would probably just go ahead and replace them. At the very least you should be sure everything on the engine is in good shape including water pump, timing belt, idler bearing, tensioner, tensioner bearing, ascessory belts, cam/crank seals, clean MAF, air filter, fuel filter (if fittings aren't frozen), etc. I'd also check other items like steering (tie rods, steering rack, flush PS with ATF) and brakes (check pads/rotors and shoes/drums for wear, bleed brakes).

Hope this helps.

redfox

02-10-2011, 12:55 AM

i am glad to read that your 4runner is working good.u deserve it.well i called a toyota dealer and had them check my truck by the vin#.there was no recall or any info on it in their records. it was good news to me.i asked them wich year of the 5vz engine s were recall and they said that they do not go by the year they strictly go by the vin#.the reason for this is because within the same year the made trucks in different plants and wherever they used the wrong patrs those are the trucks that were recalled.just out of curiosity i will call them with two more vin# that belongs to the trucks we drive at work.one is i believe the same year as mine t-100 with about 200k on it and driven by different people with different driving styles over the years if u know what i mean.the other one is tundra with the 3.4 about same mile as mine.
also talked to the mechanic who is helping me to get the truck ready with the suspension and other things.he is also very confident that these engines are great and i should not have to do my hg.so i decided not to disturb this healthy engine any further just fix what i had already torn out.and also i am changing the radiator to a koyo radiator and putting in a liquid filled water temp and oil pressure gauge to better monitor the engine.i will incase have a topend gasket set on hand if i ever have to do it.
today i looked at the back of the engine on both sides as my mechanic also recommended and only found some oil residue which looked like was coming from the valve cover.by the way when i was taking it apart my valve cover bolts were so loose i put the 3/8" extension with 10mm head on it and i could handspin all the bolts.
once iput it back together i will for sure monitor the coolant loss if it will still exist.i will measure compression and do the internal leak test.how exactly should i go about doing this?i am thinking to pressurize it with air before i fill it with coolant so if there is a leak i could start separeting it into different sections and keep pressurizing each one until i find it.what kind of pressure is safe and or good enough to do it with.guessing about 10-15 psi
i would like to attach some pics to the post but i am not sure how to do it

MTL_4runner

02-11-2011, 04:30 PM

I am glad to read that your 4runner is working well. You deserve it. Well, I called a Toyota dealer and had them check my truck by the vin #. There was no recall or any other info on the truck in their records. This was good news to me. I asked them wich year of the 5VZ engines were recalled and they said that they do not go by the year, they strictly go by the vin#. The reason for this is because within the same year, they made trucks in different plants and wherever they used the wrong parts, those are the trucks that were recalled. Just out of curiosity I will call them with two more vin# that belongs to the trucks we drive at work. One is I believe the same year as mine T-100 with about 200k on it and driven by different people with different driving styles over the years if you know what I mean. The other one is a Tundra with the 3.4L and about same mileage as mine.

I also talked to the mechanic who is helping me to get the truck ready with the suspension and other things. He is also very confident that these engines are great and that I should not have to do my HG. So I decided not to disturb this healthy engine any further and just fix what I had already torn out. I am also changing the radiator to a Koyo and putting in liquid filled water temp and oil pressure gauges to better monitor the engine. I will, just in case, have a topend gasket set on hand so if I ever have to do it on the road, I am prepared.

Today I looked at the back of the engine on both sides as my mechanic also recommended and only found some oily residue which looked like was coming from the valve cover. By the way, when I was taking the engine apart, my valve cover bolts were so loose I put the 3/8" extension with 10mm head on it and I could handspin all the bolts. Once iput it back together I will definately monitor the coolant loss if it still exists. I will also measure compression and do the internal leak test too.

Use an engine degreaser to clean the engine down and see if just tightening down the valve cover bolts was enough. Worst case installing new valve cover gaskets is very easy and the spark plug tube seals aren't bad either.

How exactly should i go about doing this?

The best way to do this is to do a test on the coolant to check for exhaust gasses. Many times the HG leaks only open up once the engine is warmed up so regular leakdown tests and compression tests will usually come back negative and give you a false sense of security. Bubbling in the coolant reservoir and very hard coolant hoses are a good sign ther might be a deeper issue like a leaking HG.

I am thinking to pressurize it with air before I fill it with coolant, so if there is a leak, I could start separating it into different sections and keep pressurizing each one until I find it.

What kind of pressure is safe and or good enough to do it with?

I'm guessing about 10-15 psi

Yes, the best would be to fill up the coolant system with coolant and then use up to 15 psi to pressurize the system. Most radiator caps will let go above 15 psi so don't use more than that. Also if you can add some dye to the coolant and use a blacklight that seems to work best to find any tough leaks.

I would like to attach some pics to the post, but I am not sure how to do it.

When posting you'll see at the bottom of the post the words "additional options" in red. Ckick on this and you'll see where you can attach photos by browsing to your to your computer for uploading the pics.

I just commented in the text above.

(PS I'm sure you're a younger fellow used to texting, but I fixed the grammar because it was a little tough to read otherwise).