And so, I refute evolution...

[Cheese]

During a particularly odd evening at the townie bar back in Wisconsin, I heard an interesting thing. I will contextualize it more later when I have slept.

The argument went as such:
1. Do you believe in the first law of thermodynamics?
Yes, the universe is clearly tending towards disorder.

Therefore, evolution is false.

Discuss, please.

[Seanz0rz]

the first law of thermodynamics is not chaos theory, it is conservation of energy. im assuming you are talking about the second law.

so for the layman, second law of thermo is basically the chaos theory(chaos theory applies to nature and general things, such as my desk and garage, where as second law of thermo applies to, well, thermo) and this is a rather large generalization, but for the sake of this discussion, its fine.

first, it states that an action is generally irreversible. in thermo, heat can travel from hot to cold, but not from cold to hot.

now for evolution, i think this DOES NOT refute evolution, it doesnt prove it either, it is inconclusive. it states that a process must move foward, never backward. and evolution does this. many variations are present, the ones best suited to their enviroment survive and breed, those who are not, die out slowly.

thats the only connection i can see. this is obviously very generalized. i am an engineer, not a evolutionary theorist. this is, quite frankly, not my problem.

please do fill us in!

[jimbo74]

if things can go from cold to hot, then how does a fire work? fires superheats up an object to a point where it flashes and ignites, if there is enough fuel for consumtion, it will burn and continue burning

[Cheese]

Jim, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I recall the laws as one about conservation of energy, the other about tending to disorder, but this cannot be left on a technicality.

I was sitting at the pub with a friend from way back, having a few beers. At 11 p.m. one of the local youth pastors walked in. I was acquainted, had talked with him some and played softball with and against him for a number of summers.

Problem is, my friend told him I was studying Philosophy. What followed was epic.

He was trying to use part of science to refute another part of science in an attempt to support religion as a stand alone, absolute, all answering truth.

Problem is asserting that we are evolving TOWARDS something, that is to say, increasing order instead of decreasing, that would be counter towards common Thermodynical ideas. It is at best contentious and at worst wrong.

So a youth pastor walks into a bar, no joke.

[Seanz0rz]

we are in fact not evolving towards something, but rather in fact, evolving away from something, therefor, SUPPORTED (at least as far as the pastor is concerned) the theory of evolution.

evolution is not proactive, its reactive.

[91_4x4runner]

I have to agree with Sean. Everything that is considered evolution is an adaptation to an environment. It doesn't automatically happen.

[BruceTS]

Heck Cheese is a classic example of evolution in progress.....look at his 4Runner :flipoff:

[Cheese]

Thanks. I feel and often look more like a caveman. Evolving to buggy?

I have now tried to reply to this three times. Bummer.

A youth pastor walks into the bar... I had played softball with and against him and even attended his church. Unfortunately, my friend mentioned that I studied Philosophy and all hell broke out.

Evolution is a response to a dynamic environment.

I do not have any patience for selectively saying science proves other parts of science false in hopes of defending an absolute, all answering religious truth.

He asked if believing made it so. I told him I was agreeing with 98% of what he was saying, he would only here that last 2%.

I am not purely a science guy, although my education and experience in the field is different than most. I am comfortable with the idea there are just some things I cannot understand.

Can you know before you know?

[MTL_4runner]

3 Laymens Laws of Thermo:
1) You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).
2) You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).
3) You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

Entropy or randomness is only relative to evolution in how you look at it. Chaos theory as it relates to the laws of thermodynamics just tells us that items with higher order (or potential) want to move towards lower order (or potential) or otherwise everything in the universe would attract and come together in a one giant superheated, superdense black hole. So is evolution really ordered or is it chaos? I'm sure you could try and argue both sides, but I'd bet money it doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics because it is in fact entropy or randomness which allows for the process of selection to occur. So really this only proves that people that use laws of thermodynamics to try and disprove evolution really have absoluetly no clue what they are talking about.

[Cheese]

That is kind of the feeling I had.

We also had a discussion about the existence of semis that was equally hilarious. I will write that up later.

Energy will be preserved, the universe tends to disorder and 0 K is not attainable, only theoretical. I am a Biologist by training, mostly large animals and ecology, not number science.

[fustercluck]

You guys are hurting my brain...

[Cheese]

My drunk friend thought the same thing. He excused himself to the bathroom, came back and heard what we were talking about, said it was too much of a buzz kill and called his wife to get a ride home.

[waskillywabbit]

BSME specialized in heat transfer and thermo
MDiv specialized in the God thing
Currently I'm an off-roading heathen. :flipoff:

#1One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had
come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one
scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we
no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and
do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the
scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this,
let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist
replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in
the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed
himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own
dirt!"


#2A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man below replied, "You are in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet about the ground. You are between 40 and 42 degrees north latitude and between 58 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be an engineer," said the balloonist.
"I am," replied the man, "but how did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost."

The man below responded, "You must be a manager."
"I am," replied the balloonist, "how did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you are going. You made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are exactly in the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault."

:guitar:

[Cheese]

I admitted I have a Christian leaning world view.

I confessed I believe there is a God, but I am troubled by the God painted by the evangelicals.

He was pissed about absolute truth.

In the Methodist tradition my recollection is one of the pillars is experience or tradition of some sort.

I believe faith is something personal that I experience as a way to progress through my days.

I believe worship is something done with others and is more formally regimented.

[AxleIke]

Its deep man...Wayyy deep.

Good luck convincing someone who has closed their mind. I've found it to be like chipping at a million foot thick rock wall with a pair of tweezers and a tooth pick.

My own personal view is: who cares? We'll all be dead and buried long before any consensus is reached, if it is indeed possible to reach one. However, i must admit, it usually is a fun debate and discussion.

[Seanz0rz]

Its deep man...Wayyy deep.

Good luck convincing someone who has closed their mind. I've found it to be like chipping at a million foot thick rock wall with a pair of tweezers and a tooth pick.


hence why i dont participate in political argument on the internet.

[Cheese]

I think there are arguments that provoke thought and reflection.

I too am confident a consensus will not be reached on this in my lifetime.

I am equally confident that if we only discussed those things which are absolutely resolvable life would be pretty boring.

[AxleIke]

agreed.

[Texas Jim]

Cheese Hey!! What about the Zombie theories? Cave men from Gico??? Gecko's that sell insurance?? You friend should be able to solve these as well: biased, apron his unsolvable argument!! :headscratch:

I, like, MTL RUNNER feel that you can not win this battle without dieing and comming back to tell us what was or is there? Ask your youth paster to go first!! :tongueout: TJ

[waskillywabbit]

In the Methodist tradition my recollection is one of the pillars is experience or tradition of some sort.

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral

United Methodists look to four sources from which the word of God's flows.

Scripture: found in both Old and New Testaments

Tradition: the wisdom of the Historic Church seeking out the Holy Spirit

Reason: the God-given faculties of clear, compassionate thought and intuition

Experience: direct personal and corporate experience of the Divine

:guitar:

[tacoclimber]

Cheese Hey!! What about the Zombie theories? Cave men from Gico??? Gecko's that sell insurance?? You friend should be able to solve these as well: biased, apron his unsolvable argument!! :headscratch:

I, like, MTL RUNNER feel that you can not win this battle without dieing and comming back to tell us what was or is there? Ask your youth paster to go first!! :tongueout: TJ


Befuddling addition to this discussion...

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing unseen."

If it could be proven to my highly limited human intellect, would it require faith?
Does the requirement of faith rule out the legitimacy of anything?

Hmmm...

Evangelical Christianity aside, I resolve to know one thing:
Christ and Him crucified.

Carry on. :D

[Henrythewound]

These are the kind of arguments that piss me off. My brother went to a christian high school and was IMO brainwashed into believing the creationism "science". He was not given the other side of the coin, only those views and so-called flaws in evolutionary theory that were then used to support creationism. If you pick up a creationist book it is filled with these kind of arguments.

Both sides are not going to convert the other. I am content to let someone else believe what they want and I expect the same. I dislike prepared arguments where someone comes armed with their point A, B, and C to convince me I am wrong in my belief. Many heated debates ensue.

I remember a National Geographic cover a while back that had a headline "Is Evolution just a theory?". When you turned to the page of the article there were the words NO in the hugest page-filling font imaginable. I thought it was hilarious. I subscribe to the mag and every month there are people writing in telling Nat Geo how wrong they are for supporting evolution, shame on them, etc.

Point is, there are at least 2 camps. Being a geologist you may be able to guess which one I belong to. I was raised in the church and things never quite sat well with me. Once I truly started questioning things for myself, things that don't make sense logically, I stopped going to church.

[tacoclimber]

I have found that my own "logic" is often anything but...

Church is not God, God is not church.
Of course, that's heading down another topic... :hillbill:

[Texas Jim]

ect.



Cheese Hey!! What about the Zombie theories? Cave men from Gico??? Gecko's that sell insurance?? You friend should be able to solve these as well: biased, apron his unsolvable argument!! :headscratch:

I, like, MTL RUNNER feel that you can not win this battle without dieing and comming back to tell us what was or is there? Ask your youth paster to go first!! :tongueout: TJ


Befuddling addition to this discussion...

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing unseen."

If it could be prov-en to my highly limited human intellect, would it require faith?
Does the requirement of faith rule out the legitimacy of anything?

Hmmm...

Evangelical Christianity aside, I resolve to know one thing:
Christ and Him crucified.

Carry on. :D




Faith has several meanings 1. unquestioning belief. 2 unquestioning belief in God,religion, ect. 3. a particular religion. 4. anything believed. 5.complete trust or confidence. 6. loyalty.


With what you have said in mind, I would say that you choose to, " Resolve in thefaith of one thing:" "Christ and Him crucified."

To answer your own question it does require faith to to believe in things that can not be prov-en. TJ

[BruceTS]

I will solve this problem once and for all.......

When I die I will come back and post what my findings are :angel:

now if I don't make said post then :flipoff:

[Cheese]

In Philosophy when discussing Moral Realism, we consider the idea that although some things do not require justification, they may in fact have justification. Some truths are perhaps self-evident, although they do not require proof, they can be proven.

Faith is believe in something that is not proven. If it were proven, it would be fact.

I think that enlightening discussion can occur in this arena. I do not think that it can easily occur after 11, at a bar, when one side has come looking for a fight.

[tacoclimber]

In Philosophy when discussing Moral Realism, we consider the idea that although some things do not require justification, they may in fact have justification. Some truths are perhaps self-evident, although they do not require proof, they can be proven.

Faith is believe in something that is not proven. If it were proven, it would be fact.

I think that enlightening discussion can occur in this arena. I do not think that it can easily occur after 11, at a bar, when one side has come looking for a fight.


I agree, Adrian, wholeheartedly.

When I was a much younger, and slightly less foolish youth in college, I would spend a good deal of my extracurricular time debating religion and philosophy with people who believed in ideas contrary to my own. I frequently was successful at "outarguing" them. But I eventually came to the understanding that although I was perhaps winning the battle, I was losing the war. The only thing I really succeeded in convincing them was that I was just another Evangelical jerk with a superiority complex who was on a personal Crusade. I say that to my own shame. I look at things much differently now.

I once heard it said that "if I can argue someone into believing in Christ, someone else can argue them out." I am content now with letting God do the work, since most of the time I just end up in the way, anyway.




So anyway, evolution... :hillbill:

[Texas Jim]

:lol: :rofl: So true , I wonder what I would be if I wasn't?? lol TJ

[fustercluck]

As evolution and God seem to be integral subjects.....Pascal's wager.

[Cheese]

As evolution and God seem to be integral subjects.....Pascal's wager.


Yup.

I am not sure how you can argue against the reality that those best suited to the environment will survive.

The trick then is what do we mean by best suited? Those who are best suited survive, those who survive are best suited. It is not informative to say those who survive survive.

[Texas Jim]

Spoken, so true!! Sooo true!!! :hillbill: TJ