Toyota's Green Problem - Political BS

[ecchamberlin]

I just saw this in the "news".

http://www.newsweek.com/id/69534

I don't know how the rest of you feel about this but this to me is pretty fishy. So Toyota has nearly passed up GM as the highest volume of sales automaker and now they are environmentally unfriendly all the sudden? Because of the Tundra? Because California proposes legislation that Toyota engineers may not be able to meet which could then result in actions against the company?

Toyota still has the most extensive hybrid line-up with the highest MPG efficiency hands down. Look at GM's excuse for environmental vehicle programs. E85? How many E85 pumps have you seen at the gas stations that would even make this somewhat of a benefit?

Fact of the matter is that Toyota has done more to advance and IMPLEMENT hyybrid/low emissions/fuel efficiency technology than any other automaker. Especially when compared to the US Big 3. That makes them a target of a smear campaign?

Seems odd to me...

[fustercluck]

follow the money. Who would benefit from a smear on Toyota? Who would benefit from a hinderance of Toyota?

[ecchamberlin]

I absolutely think that is the motivation behind this. I hate to sound conspiracy theory-ish but this is corperate/political manuevering all the way.

[fustercluck]

I absolutely think that is the motivation behind this. I hate to sound conspiracy theory-ish but this is corperate/political manuevering all the way.


My friend, every political, corporate and special interest effort is a conspiracy...








































...the question is, 'who done it?' :D

[neliconcept]

no conspiracy, the government plays a roll in this, they have bailed out several car companies over the years threatened by bankruptcy, and now they dont wanna see toyota on top.

[04 Rocko Taco]

no conspiracy, the government plays a roll in this, they have bailed out several car companies over the years threatened by bankruptcy, and now they dont wanna see toyota on top.


so therefore, the government wouls be working with the media to release these stories about Toyota to keep them from being on top....
Corporate subterfuge to gain ones own ends....

That pretty much sounds like conspiracy to me Blake... ;)

[fustercluck]

If acting in harmony to a common end is a general definition of 'conspiracy', then I reassert.

[ecchamberlin]

That pretty much defines conspiracy right there.

No matter what you call it, this sucks. GM, Ford and Chrysler seem the more obvious targets of the eco attacks. But they have bigger problems right now. I guess they should focus on making a more reliable product before they worry about it's efficiency.

[Bob98SR5]

on the flip side of the coin, maybe the enviros got sick and tired of lobbying for the big 3 to change, so naturally, the only company who was responsive (toyota), became a target for "turning their backs on the cause"? thats the way i see this.

also, toyota has to strike a balance of being profitable, but not too profitable. it seems really stupid as that is the goal of any company, but toyota has traditionally been very sensitive about being 'a good corporate foreign citizen', for lack of a better description, because of still lingering anti-japanese bias. i'm not kidding about this either. i can dig up some articles about this if you'd like. the t-100 lagged a few years (iirc from one article i read) because TMS found that public sentiment against a japanese company introducing a full size truck (the bread and butter of the Big 3) would cause negative sentiments towards toyota.

[BruceTS]

What I think is BS is the fact they claim that the goal set can't be achieved. The Big 3 or Toyota, could easily develop a car that gets well over 50mpg..... And today's hybrids are a joke, those vehicles should be getting at least 85 mpg....

[neliconcept]

no conspiracy, the government plays a roll in this, they have bailed out several car companies over the years threatened by bankruptcy, and now they dont wanna see toyota on top.


so therefore, the government wouls be working with the media to release these stories about Toyota to keep them from being on top....
Corporate subterfuge to gain ones own ends....

That pretty much sounds like conspiracy to me Blake... ;)


well i guess i worded that wrong, it is technically conspiracy, but i think conspiracy is something "that is not known to the public but is just a theory behind it" this isnt news though imo.

but yeah its bs all in its own

[tulsa_sr5]

my problem with all this is toyota sells what, 400k + camry's, 350k+ corolla's, 150k + scions, 125k + prius, and hopes to sell 200k tundras? yeah, there goes the green image. The US sales of the landcruiser and sequoia are pretty small. Look at the overall brand averages and toyota is right there with honda for the top 2 spots, several MPG higher than the fleet averages for the domestics.

The other side of this coin, in my mind is us. The average american likes their supersized everything. It seems to me that honda and toyota tried for decades to woo us to smaller cars and trucks, but going bigger has led to consistently higher sales for them. I guess the consumer is always right. Not always smart, but right.

[ecchamberlin]

What I think is BS is the fact they claim that the goal set can't be achieved. The Big 3 or Toyota, could easily develop a car that gets well over 50mpg..... And today's hybrids are a joke, those vehicles should be getting at least 85 mpg....


Quite a claim Bruce. Any chance you can provide a source for the "easily....50MPG" claim?

And as far as today's hybrids being a joke, I will take 49 actual mpg (city) over the actual milage (not the factory listed MPG) of a comparable convential car any day. Especially at the gas station with gas a $3.30/gal.

Could they be even more efficient right now? Probably. How about in all the weather extremes from the heat of the desert to the cold of Alaska? Maybe not such an easy engineering issue with batteries behaivior in extreme temperatures. But I would rather see the manufacturers side on caution to ensure the battery technology is safe and reliable during the development of these systems.

[ecchamberlin]

I think this Company is on the right track with the alt fuel cars:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

I think you have to make new technology "cool" in our society. Then after you smoke a viper or a Shelby Mustang in absolute silence, you go ahead and make it for the masses and put it in practicle vehicles. This is a perception thing. Just like when my wife talked me into buying our Prius. I though oh great a ugly, slow, small car that handles like crap... Then I drove it and was really suprised that it was none of those. Okay maybe it is ugly still. But it took a test drive (and a set of 17" rims with low profile tires) to change my "perception" of it. Most people will not go and test drive a car in the off chance that they are wrong about it. So you wow them with the technology to break down perception.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBKI1WmzaUw
WOW!

[BruceTS]

Quite a claim Bruce. Any chance you can provide a source for the "easily....50MPG" claim?


Back in the late 70's I belonged to a group that built hybrid electric cars. My father and I were planning on converting a VW bug to a hybrid, actually collected up most of the parts to do the conversion. I still have the electric motor stored away..... The average hybrid got 130mpg, but most vehicles were stripped down to conserve weight. Pure electric powered with a small 2-stroke engine to charge the batteries.

A friend of mine had a Suzuki Sprint that averaged 53mpg, so I'd say it's quite easy.......

[paddlenbike]

There are a lot of ways to make hybrid cars more efficient, but at what cost? Reducing the body weight via the use of aluminum and carbon fiber, integrating solar panels into the roofs, hoods and trunk lids and the installation of Lithium Ion batteries would increase the mileage substantially. Now how much does this car cost, is it powerful enough for the average American to feel he can get his family over the mountain in it and will it be a safe car?

I think they've done a reasonable job with the current hybrid cars and I look forward to higher volume sales and mass production reducing the cost of the items I mentioned above.

[ecchamberlin]

I remember these cars from when I still lived in Michigan. They were not allowed on the Machinaw Bridge in high wind conditions because one was actually blown off the bridge because it was a stripped down car with no safety features for even that period. But hey it got 50 miles per gallon.

50 MPG has come a long way in that these cars now lead the market in not only efficiency but also in safety. Systems like ABS, VSC, SRS dual front air bags, side curtain air bags, side impact door beams and stability control programs. All this stuff accounts for some considerable poundage.

I bet if you got a Civic hybrid and took all the safety equipment off it so that it was a a shell chasis on bicycle wheels/tires you could get nearly 100MPG but again what happens in snow and ice and heaven forbid an accident with even a typical mid sized car? Or an accident with a 4th gen 4Runner? Totally realistic situation that responsible auto designers have to take into account.

My point is that with current safety technology it would be irresponsible to cut the corners that were cut to make those cars happen 20+ years ago.

The higher efficiency cars will happen but it should be the engineers who set the pace not law makers who are just pandering to the "green" lobyists.