When does your supercharger reach max PSI? [Archive]

TrackRunner

11-26-2007, 01:20 PM

04 Rocko Taco

11-26-2007, 01:52 PM

Im sure Andy and Steve will chime in here once they see these threads.
No worries about the other thread. I didnt mean to sounds like a jackass or anything....

TrackRunner

11-26-2007, 03:24 PM

hahaha, no worries man. you didn't sound like a jackass at all. I was glad you said something or I would have been flamed pretty good for sure.

Seanz0rz

11-26-2007, 04:24 PM

nah we dont flame you here, thats only TOF! :)

nice to see you on here since pismo.

as for the supercharger, i know that isnt unusual for some vehicles, though i am unsure as to this particular vehicle. yea, that didnt help at all.

TrackRunner

11-26-2007, 10:49 PM

nah we dont flame you here, thats only TOF! :)

hahaha, and most other forums I've been to. weak pansies behind tough keyboards.

nice to see you on here since pismo.

Thanks man, you too. How's the 4runner? I'm still finding ridiculous amounts of sand in crazy places since the trip. great time though.

Seanz0rz

11-26-2007, 11:36 PM

ive yet to vacuum it out!!!

front bumper got forcked, and im swapin in an elocker sometime this next week.

MTL_4runner

11-27-2007, 06:37 AM

For those of you that saw my last post, please excuse the poor use of terminology on my part. Spooling sounded good for what I was trying to describe, but as Rock Taco pointed out it was definitely not the word to use, so I am reposting to save myself the embarrassment of having that thread up for the next few days. Please forgive my specialness... :gay:

My question is for the supercharged guys. I can reach max PSI with my pedal only pushed down to about 35-40% (or around 2700-3000 RPM) . Is this normal? I haven't driven in another supercharged 4runner, so I have nothing to compare to. My truck isn't to much faster than stock, and I'm trying to track down the problem. Thanks, Jon

Hi Jon, yes, spooling is only for turbos but we get the idea anyway. :laugh:

The amount of boost vs RPM has to do with a few factors. The first is what size pulley you're running. The second is whether or not the bypass valve is opening and closing properly. I'd be curious what you're seeing as your max boost, but typically you'll see boost level out at around 3000-4000 RPM if that helps at all. It may continue to go up a little at higher RPMs but the boost "spools up" :P quickest in the lower RPM range.

TrackRunner

11-27-2007, 11:29 AM

Hey MTL, thanks for the response. I notice that when I'm accelerating lightly, I will hit 1 PSI around 2300-2500 RPM, and 8.5 PSI (my max boost) around 4000 RPM. If I floor it from a stop though, the boost needle will jump and I will hit the max PSI at a much lower RPM. I was hoping that this was a sign of a vacuum leak or something easy like that. Is there a way to test if the bypass valve is working properly?

My buddy just bought an FJ, and we did a side by side run the other day in a safe area. We pulled basically the same and were head to head most of the run. If I'm not mistaken the FJ makes around 245 HP at the crank, and most 4runners with the S/C and fuel mods with a properly tuned map are making around 230-240 at the wheels. I'm not saying my map is perfect, but it's tuned to 12.1 AFR in Open Loop. Just makes me think that somethings a miss but I can't figure out whats up.

mastacox

11-27-2007, 11:41 AM

My question is for the supercharged guys. I can reach max PSI with my pedal only pushed down to about 35-40% (or around 2700-3000 RPM) . Is this normal? I haven't driven in another supercharged 4runner, so I have nothing to compare to.

I haven't paid super close attention lately, but off the top of my head that sounds at least reasonable... Similar to what MTL said, my boost seems to level off at 3500 rpms or so.

My truck isn't to much faster than stock, and I'm trying to track down the problem. Thanks, Jon

Well, lets get the first and most obvious questions- out of the way. Do you have AFR measurements? Any ping or misfiring problems? What spark plug gap are you running, and how old are the plugs?

Hey MTL, thanks for the response. I notice that when I'm accelerating lightly, I will hit 1 PSI around 2300-2500 RPM, and 8.5 PSI (my max boost) around 4000 RPM. If I floor it from a stop though, the boost needle will jump and I will hit the max PSI at a much lower RPM. I was hoping that this was a sign of a vacuum leak or something easy like that. Is there a way to test if the bypass valve is working properly?

My guess, if you had a (significant) vacuum/pressure leak, you would be able to hear it. You could do the tried and true method of spraying starter fluid at any of your intake joints and monitor the engine rpms, if the engine speed changes when you spray an area you've found a leak.

My buddy just bought an FJ, and we did a side by side run the other day in a safe area. We pulled basically the same and were head to head most of the run. If I'm not mistaken the FJ makes around 245 HP at the crank, and most 4runners with the S/C and fuel mods with a properly tuned map are making around 230-240 at the wheels. I'm not saying my map is perfect, but it's tuned to 12.1 AFR in Open Loop. Just makes me think that somethings a miss but I can't figure out whats up.

Are you monitoring AFR through a wideband guage, or is this something you've gotten measured at a Dyno? There are a lot of things that could be going wrong with ignition and/or fuel delivery that don't immediately show up too... I had a really wierd problem I ran into that I ended up tracking down to my Iridium IK-22 spark plugs.

TrackRunner

11-27-2007, 11:43 AM

front bumper got forcked, and im swapin in an elocker sometime this next week.

elocker! you lucky bastard :) where did you pick it up from? How much? When you're done we should do a cleghorn run.

TrackRunner

11-27-2007, 12:00 PM

Well, lets get the first and most obvious questions- out of the way. Do you have AFR measurements? Any ping or misfiring problems? What spark plug gap are you running, and how old are the plugs?

My AFR in open loop is 12.1-ish. It can drop down to 11.5's though. My truck will only go into open loop when I am WOT, so I have to tune while flooring it, not the easiest.. I have never had pinging or misfires that I know of. Even before the fuel mods I could lug the truck up a hill and not here any pinging. I am running the IK-22's, they are gapped to .035, and they are about a year old now (around 10,000 miles on them).

Are you monitoring AFR through a wideband guage, or is this something you've gotten measured at a Dyno? There are a lot of things that could be going wrong with ignition and/or fuel delivery that don't immediately show up too... I had a really wierd problem I ran into that I ended up tracking down to my Iridium IK-22 spark plugs.

I'm using the LM-1. I did the free air calibration before monitoring the AFRs as well. What was the problem with your IK-22s? Did you switch to a different type of plugs? maybe i'm having a similar issue.

mastacox

11-27-2007, 12:19 PM

What was the problem with your IK-22s? Did you switch to a different type of plugs? maybe i'm having a similar issue.

The IK-22's have a thread-on cap that the plug wires attach to. Problem is, this cap can come loose from vibration in the engine, and play hell with ignition in your cylinders, especially under boost where it takes a more powerful spark.

Basically my symptoms were: things started getting "sluggish" in boost (especially high boost) until finally I was literally making more power in vacuum. I was thinking my plug gap was the problem, but after pulling the plugs I found several with loose caps. I changed to Toyota OEM plugs and the problem IMMEDIATELY went away. So I drove back home like that, but was worried about a possible increase in ping (although AFAIK I had no problems, maybe a little ping in the low rpms.)

I have since tried changing back to IK-22's using JB weld on the caps' threads to hold them on. Things seem to have been working ok for a few thousand miles, but I have to say to don't trust them and sometimes think I'm feeling a "little mis-fire" here and there... and I'm worried about differential thermal expansion causing the JB-weld to lose its bond.

I have heard for the "real" fix I need to go to the copper Denso plugs (5062) because they don't have a screw on cap, but you can't really "gap" a multi-prong plug so there's yeat another problem. That, and they're $20 a piece, and I already have two full sets of IK-22's in supposedly good condition, I just need to fix this cap problem. If JB weld doesn't do it, I don't know what will though... Still, the 4Runner is running at 95% IMO, I just need to tune my map for the winter now, as the colder temps have messed mine up.

From what I've seen, heard, and read, I'm thinking my "little mis-fire" problems are mainly related to non-uniform fuel atomization with the "cheapo" Bosch fuel injectors. I'd like to try the 390cc Lucas Disc injectors URD is now offering, but at $59 a piece, that's a rather expensive proposition (plus install time). Maybe in the future...

mastacox

11-27-2007, 12:26 PM

A few more things-

Mark (midiwall) over on ToF did some testing and found gapping your plugs to .032" or so is a sweet spot to assure maximum ignition under boost. I'm running 1/32" (.0312") because my plug gapper isn't small enough but I have a 1/32" drill bit. Seems to have been working well.

I'm kind of curious about the spark kicker Mark is also using... maybe a stronger spark would help some? It sucks that he left YT and doesn't hang out here, he would be helpful in a discussion such as this.

mastacox

11-27-2007, 02:44 PM

I'm gonna pull this discussion from buy/sell advice in here also, because discussing in two different threads will get confusing.

What my problems are:
- I have incredibly bad gas mileage (11-13 MPG city)

- There seems to be a lack in power (no low end). It's faster than stock, but not by much.

- My truck only goes into Open Loop when I am WOT. So I either have to keep the truck under 2500 RPMs (no boost) or floor it to prevent leaning it out.

So, you're getting terrible gas mileage, what does your AFR look like in standard driving around town? 14.7:1 I hope... Since you're at sea level I would guess you wouldn't be getting very good mileage, it could be you're having to use more go-pedal because the engine isn't running right. I'm thinking you should be getting about 14-15mpg city and 17-18mpg hwy as long as you're semi-easy on the go-pedal.

[EDIT- Duh, you have a 2000 so you have a WB O2 sensor]You mention that your 4Runner only goes into open loop when you're at WOT, and that got me thinking. Do you have the FTC1-E? I know most people have had pretty much no luck with the oxygen sensor signal conditioner built-in to these things, but it's worth a shot IMO (I've had some luck with it). Do you have it's "turn-on" pressure at 4psi like in the U-Tune guide, or something else?

I have to say, reading your other post makes me think it could be your plugs/wires. If I were you, I would at least try changing your plugs to OEM for a quick test (beware of ping, this is a test only). Also, ohm your wires to make sure they're in spec. If it doesn't fix anything no harm done because they're cheap. If they do fix at least some of your problems, I would recommend looking into alternative plugs like the Denso Copper's.

surf4runner

11-27-2007, 03:02 PM

...using JB weld on the caps' threads to hold them on. Things seem to have been working ok for a few thousand miles, but I have to say to don't trust them and sometimes think I'm feeling a "little mis-fire" here and there... and I'm worried about differential thermal expansion causing the JB-weld to lose its bond.

im surprised they still work using JB weld as its not a good electrical conductor.

i had this problem w/ plug caps(different vehicles) and ive found that just cranking down the caps extra tight before installing seems to do a good job of keeping them secure.

mastacox

11-27-2007, 03:22 PM

im surprised they still work using JB weld as its not a good electrical conductor.

Yeah I was worried about that too, so I did one as a "scientific experiment" and it ohmed the same before and after the JB. So, I did the whole set, and measured their before and after resistances before install.

i had this problem w/ plug caps(different vehicles) and ive found that just cranking down the caps extra tight before installing seems to do a good job of keeping them secure.

I tried to do this the first time around, but the caps are smooth and difficult to get a hold of, even when cranking down with pliers and damaging the caps' plating; I was worried about possibly damaging the plugs themselves so I went no further. I was apparently unsuccessful in tightening them, and I though I cranked them pretty good... From what I understand, this is a pretty common problem with these specific plugs.

TrackRunner

11-27-2007, 10:53 PM

So, you're getting terrible gas mileage, what does your AFR look like in standard driving around town? 14.7:1 I hope...
Yeah, basically 14.7:1. It jumps around a little, but its not consistently above or below. I’ve read that this is normal with the 4runners that have two 02 sensors instead of an AFR and 02 sensor. More on that below.

I'm thinking you should be getting about 14-15mpg city and 17-18mpg hwy as long as you're semi-easy on the go-pedal.
Unfortunately, I can go really easy on the gas for a full tank and I will only see a small difference.

[EDIT- Duh, you have a 2000 so you have a WB O2 sensor] …. Do you have the FTC1-E? I know most people have had pretty much no luck with the oxygen sensor signal conditioner built-in to these things, but it's worth a shot IMO
My 4Runner has fed. Emissions (I think it’s from Canada) so I have two 02 sensors and no AFR sensor. I’ve been speaking with Gadget for the past couple of months and he said they are about a month away from putting out a new FTC1. They are designing it for the later year 4runners equipped with two 02 sensors and it should work a lot better. I'm planning on trying that out as soon as it's released.

If I were you, I would at least try changing your plugs to OEM for a quick test (beware of ping, this is a test only). Also, ohm your wires to make sure they're in spec. If it doesn't fix anything no harm done because they're cheap. If they do fix at least some of your problems, I would recommend looking into alternative plugs like the Denso Copper's.
I have a new set of Denso copper 5062s that came with the fuel upgrade kit. I will get them in asap and let you guys know the results. Same with testing the plug wires.

One more thing that I thought might be worth mentioning. My RPMs at idle are a little low (around 600-650). When I reset the ecu however, they will drop down to 500 and the truck will stall if I don’t give it a little throttle. The RPMs will go back up to 600-650 after about 20 minutes of driving though. Strangeness…

MTL_4runner

11-28-2007, 05:22 AM

One more thing that I thought might be worth mentioning. My RPMs at idle are a little low (around 600-650). When I reset the ecu however, they will drop down to 500 and the truck will stall if I don’t give it a little throttle. The RPMs will go back up to 600-650 after about 20 minutes of driving though. Strangeness…

Have you cleaned your throttle body and IAC valve? It may be ignition, fuel or ECU related but cleaning those two items are easy to eliminate them from the possible cause. Also are those idle numbers in drive or in park? I just went through a full top end engine rebuild and had some trouble after I cleaned my IAC but it's right back where it should be now. I usually see about 600-650 RPM in drive and 700-750 RPM in park if that helps at all. Cleaning them both doesn't take long and it's fairly easy to do.

mastacox

11-28-2007, 07:30 AM

My 4Runner has fed. Emissions (I think it’s from Canada) so I have two 02 sensors and no AFR sensor. I’ve been speaking with Gadget for the past couple of months and he said they are about a month away from putting out a new FTC1. They are designing it for the later year 4runners equipped with two 02 sensors and it should work a lot better. I'm planning on trying that out as soon as it's released.

Hmm, this is pretty interesting, glad I mentioned it at least. A new FTC1 eh, I wonder what it is they will change to make it work properly? Probably the oxygen sensor signal conditioner is being revamped....

Even with a new FTC1 coming out, I think I'm more interested in trying out the Splitsecond Perfect Performance SMT-7, because it can use closed-loop feedback from a WB O2 sensor to adjust your fuel map :smokin: Tell it where you want to be in open loop (12.0:1), where you want to be in closed loop (14.7:1), and it makes it happen (at least in theory).

One more thing that I thought might be worth mentioning. My RPMs at idle are a little low (around 600-650). When I reset the ecu however, they will drop down to 500 and the truck will stall if I don’t give it a little throttle. The RPMs will go back up to 600-650 after about 20 minutes of driving though. Strangeness…

Have you cleaned your throttle body and IAC valve?

This idle issue probably has more to do with your tune than the cleanliness of your intake (but do make sure they're clean). My guess is you are either running too rich or too lean at idle, and as a result unless your ECU trims the fuel delivery the engine will die. What does your AFR guage say when the engine is trying to die? My guess is this is probably the warm-start issue that many people with the URD kit have. Since your engine isn't in closed loop idle when it first starts, it's only guessing at a pre-set table of values for how much fuel to add.

MTL_4runner

11-28-2007, 07:39 AM

This idle issue probably has more to do with your tune than the cleanliness of your intake (but do make sure they're clean). My guess is you are either running too rich or too lean at idle, and as a result unless your ECU trims the fuel delivery the engine will die. What does your AFR guage say when the engine is trying to die? My guess is this is probably the warm-start issue that many people with the URD kit have. Since your engine isn't in closed loop idle when it first starts, it's only guessing at a pre-set table of values for how much fuel to add.

Brian, you're probably right (which is why I mentioned the other possible issues right after), but if the other two items are not clean and functioning properly, it can make the warm start problem even worse. I still believe you're more than likely right about it being a tuning issue though.

TrackRunner

11-28-2007, 11:16 AM

Have you cleaned your throttle body and IAC valve? It may be ignition, fuel or ECU related but cleaning those two items are easy to eliminate them from the possible cause. Also are those idle numbers in drive or in park?
The throttle body was cleaned a while ago, but it is probably due for another cleaning. I asked my mechanic to clean the AIC when he had my truck for a few weeks while the supercharger was being rebuilt. I didn’t notice a difference in idle RPMs, so maybe he didn’t actually do it… he’s been a little sketchy the past few months. I will give it a good cleaning this weekend if I can get the time.

Hmm, this is pretty interesting, glad I mentioned it at least. A new FTC1 eh, I wonder what it is they will change to make it work properly? Probably the oxygen sensor signal conditioner is being revamped....
After reading through the thread again this morning, I realized I made a mistake. It is not the FTC1 that they are revamping, but the ESC1.

Even with a new FTC1 coming out, I think I'm more interested in trying out the Splitsecond SMT-7, because it can use closed-loop feedback from a WB O2 sensor to adjust your fuel map
Is the SMT-7 out? It sounds like a much more robust product if it works as advertised.

This idle issue probably has more to do with your tune than the cleanliness of your intake (but do make sure they're clean). My guess is you are either running too rich or too lean at idle, and as a result unless your ECU trims the fuel delivery the engine will die. What does your AFR guage say when the engine is trying to die? My guess is this is probably the warm-start issue that many people with the URD kit have. Since your engine isn't in closed loop idle when it first starts, it's only guessing at a pre-set table of values for how much fuel to add.
In open loop idle, the lm-1 shows a rich mixture (upper 13’s), but if I change the numbers in the fuel map to lean it out a little, the fuel trims are out of whack once the ecu goes in to closed loop. Also, after I reset the ecu, the low idle RPMs will stay low even after the truck has warmed up and is running in closed loop. I will get the scan tool out and see if I can get my idle map dialed in a little more though, see if I can find a sweet spot.

mastacox

11-28-2007, 11:32 AM

Is the SMT-7 out? It sounds like a much more robust product if it works as advertised.

I'm a little retarded and mis-spoke on the manufacturer of the SMT7 (it's actually made by Perfect Power), but one way or another it's out. It's pricey, but its out. I don't think one of these has ever actually been used on a Toyota 3.4l V-6 (that I've heard of), but in theory it should be perfectly functional. Just as a warning, URD doesn't carry Perfect power products... a bit of a sore spot for fans of their (Perfect Power's) stuff. just so you know, the SMT6 is Perfect Power's competing product to SplitSecond's FTC1, where as the SMT7 is a (big) step above both of them.

http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt7.asp
http://www.perfectpower.com/products/compare_pb.asp

In open loop idle, the lm-1 shows a rich mixture (upper 13’s), but if I change the numbers in the fuel map to lean it out a little, the fuel trims are out of whack once the ecu goes in to closed loop. Also, after I reset the ecu, the low idle RPMs will stay low even after the truck has warmed up and is running in closed loop. I will get the scan tool out and see if I can get my idle map dialed in a little more though, see if I can find a sweet spot.

Yeah, I know what you mean by trying to find the "sweet spot" in there... Closed loop idle and coasting tend to overlap in the open loop region there, making one change affect the other. One way or another, it sounds like you have the idle issues under control (from a tuning standpoint); but what is the AFR when your engine dies? Still 13:1?

Let us know what happens with the new plugs... Im impatient! :drool:

TrackRunner

12-15-2007, 05:41 PM

Let us know what happens with the new plugs... Im impatient!
I haven't had a chance to swap them out yet unfortunately; work has been super crazy. Looks like
I'm going to have to take care of it after Christmas.

Quick question for you guys. I was rolling down a long hill today and put the truck into 2nd gear to relieve the breaks a little. I heard what I think were some soft backfires coming from the tailpipe. They weren't too loud, and if I didn't have my windows down I wouldn't have even heard it. I had my timing done three thousand miles ago, do I need to have it looked at again?

mt_goat

12-17-2007, 07:07 AM

I have since tried changing back to IK-22's using JB weld on the caps' threads to hold them on. Things seem to have been working ok for a few thousand miles, but I have to say to don't trust them and sometimes think I'm feeling a "little mis-fire" here and there... and I'm worried about differential thermal expansion causing the JB-weld to lose its bond....

I think I'd be tempted to try soldering them on, maybe a high melting pt solder (not sure how hot the plug ends get during use)

mt_goat

12-17-2007, 07:15 AM

I had my timing done three thousand miles ago, do I need to have it looked at again?

What do you mean you had your timing done? The ECU controls and is constantly adjusting the timing. Unless you're talking about adjusting the timing map on a piggy back computer.

mastacox

12-17-2007, 07:20 AM

I think I'd be tempted to try soldering them on, maybe a high melting pt solder (not sure how hot the plug ends get during use)

Yeah I considered soldering, but like you I'm not sure how hot the end of the plug gets. The more I think about it the more I think it would probably work though.

mastacox

12-17-2007, 07:21 AM

Quick question for you guys. I was rolling down a long hill today and put the truck into 2nd gear to relieve the breaks a little. I heard what I think were some soft backfires coming from the tailpipe. They weren't too loud, and if I didn't have my windows down I wouldn't have even heard it. I had my timing done three thousand miles ago, do I need to have it looked at again?

Soft backfires are not uncommon, especially on a truck with aftermarket exhaust. Did your engine cut fuel while you were engine braking?

mt_goat

01-07-2009, 04:27 PM

I have heard for the "real" fix I need to go to the copper Denso plugs (5062) because they don't have a screw on cap, but you can't really "gap" a multi-prong plug so there's yeat another problem. That, and they're $20 a piece, and I already have two full sets of IK-22's in supposedly good condition, I just need to fix this cap problem....

Actually URD has those plugs 6 for $20: http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.php?cPath=9_15&products_id=430000009