I'm glad I am no longer enrolled at a state university

[oly884]

Former Student Guns Down 5 in Attack at Northern Illinois University; Kills Self (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330730,00.html)

A former student dressed in black opened fire with a shotgun and two handguns from the stage of a Northern Illinois University lecture hall Thursday, killing five students and wounding more than a dozen others before taking his own life.

University President John Peters said there were a total of 22 casualties in what he described as a "rapid fire" attack that sent terrified students running for cover.

The gunman shot himself on the stage after a rampage that lasted no more than a few minutes.

The slain included four females and two males, including the killer, Peters said.

Four, including the gunman, died at the scene, and two died at the hospital, Peters said.

He said the gunman was a Spring 2007 graduate student in sociology at NIU, but was not currently enrolled.

According to identification found on him, the gunman was enrolled in another, unidentified university.

Peters said authorities know of no motive. Police believe the gunman had a no criminal history.

The university president called the incident, "a terrible time of crisis."
Related

*
Stories
o Shooting Reminds Students of Earlier Threat on Campus
Photo Essays
o Northern Illinois University Shooting

Lauren Carr said she was sitting in the third row of the lecture hall when she saw the gunman walk through a door on the right-hand side of the stage, pointing a gun straight ahead.

"I try to be a good student and sit close to the front and this is what happens," said Carr, a 20-year-old sophomore. "I personally Army-crawled halfway up the aisle ... I said I could get up and run or I could die here."

She said a student in front of her was bleeding, "but he just kept running."

"I heard this girl scream, 'Run, he's reloading the gun."'

Witnesses said "someone dressed in black came out from behind a screen in front of the classroom and opened fire with a shotgun," Peters said.

Seventeen victims were brought to Kishwaukee Community Hospital in DeKalb, according to spokeswoman Theresa Komitas. One died, two were admitted and three were discharged; five were being evaluated and six others were transferred to other hospitals in critical condition.

One male died at OSF St. Anthony's in Rockford and three were taken to Good Samaritan in Downers Grove.

The shooting took place about 3 p.m. and was over in an instant.

"At this point I'm being told it was less than two minutes," Grady said. "This thing started and ended in a matter of seconds."

George Gaynor, a senior geography student, who also was in Cole Hall when the shooting happened, told the student newspaper the Northern Star the shooter was "a skinny white guy with a stocking cap on."

He described a terrifying scene.

"Some girl got hit in the eye, a guy got hit in the leg," Gaynor said outside just minutes after the shooting occurred. "It was like five minutes before class ended, too."

Student Edward Robinson told WLS-TV the gunman appeared to target students in one part of the lecture hall.

"It was almost like he knew who he wanted to shoot," Robinson said. "He knew who and where he wanted to be firing at."

Alan Edrinn, 21, a journalism major, arrived at the scene around 3:30 p.m. after hearing reports of the shooting.

"It was very chaotic," he said. "People were definitely in a panic. I saw some people running. Everyone was on their cell phone. I saw bodies on the sidewalk, it looked like two, people were attending to them," Edrinn said.

"Police were trying to get people back, there were people crying," he added.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms sent 15 agents to the scene, according to Thomas Ahern, a spokesman. He said information about the weapons involved would be sent to the ATF's national database in Washington and given urgent priority.

The FBI also was assisting.

All classes were canceled Thursday night and the 25,000-student campus was closed on Friday. Students were urged to call their parents "as soon as possible" and were offered counseling at any residence hall, according to the school Web site.

The school was closed for one day during final exam week in December after campus police found threats, including racial slurs and references to shootings earlier in the year at Virginia Tech, scrawled on a bathroom wall in a dormitory. Police determined after an investigation that there was no imminent threat and the campus was reopened. Peters said he knew of no connection between that incident and Thursday's attack.

The shooting was the fourth at a U.S. school within a week.

On Feb. 8, a woman shot two fellow students to death before committing suicide at Louisiana Technical College in Baton Rouge. In Memphis, Tenn., a 17-year-old is accused of shooting and critically wounding a fellow student Monday during a high school gym class, and the 15-year-old victim of a shooting at an Oxnard, Calif., junior high school has been declared brain dead.

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I'm going to be honest as I can be here. This is f'in BS. How many more of these shootings are going to take place until lawful gun owners will be able to protect themselves?

I don't want to hear a damn word about "more guns on campus will cause problems." Sorry, but those of us who have taken the time to obtain a concealed weapons permit know, very well, the consequences that take place if a gun is used inappropriately. Take a look at statistics on how many gun crimes are committed by a person who LEGALLY carries a concealed weapon.

If you're too lazy to do so: http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/Crime/Concealed%20Carry/CCW%20and%20Violent%20Crime

There are plenty more on the internet as well.

Clearly this is becoming a larger issue with the elections coming up. Both Hillary and Obama are very ignorant when it comes to firearms, they simply can't comprehend why banning guns, concealed weapons, etc will not solve the problem. Furthermore, they do not understand the second amendment what so ever, but that's another issue all together.

Sorry guys, I'm just so sick of seeing these cowards take the lives of innocent people for their selfish reasons. I do realize that allowing people to carry concealed weapons on campus may or may not have prevented/reduced this tragedy, but it definitely changes the odds.

[neliconcept]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop

[fustercluck]

There is wisdom in fighting fire with fire.

[calrockx]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


that would result in a lot of blown heads.

i wonder what is behind all these schools shootings. like sociologically/psychologically.
were thesre just as many in generations past, but they weren't so widely reported? it doesn't seem that way.
so what's triggering them?

sure many have been prevented by kids pointing out weird behavior in fellow students, but even one of these making it through to gunfire is too many.

i think identifying the risk factors and taking action on those should come first, having return "fire" be a secondary strategy.

it sucks some students have to go through security tighter than an airports almost just to get to class. glad i never had that experience.

[neliconcept]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


that would result in a lot of blown heads.

i wonder what is behind all these schools shootings. like sociologically/psychologically.
were thesre just as many in generations past, but they weren't so widely reported? it doesn't seem that way.
so what's triggering them?

sure many have been prevented by kids pointing out weird behavior in fellow students, but even one of these making it through to gunfire is too many.

i think identifying the risk factors and taking action on those should come first, having return "fire" be a secondary strategy.

it sucks some students have to go through security tighter than an airports almost just to get to class. glad i never had that experience.


i dunno man, security here at CSU isnt that great. it took 10 minutes for a cop half a fuckin mile away to come help this girl i saw bust ass on her bike and nearly break her back in the process.

i think they are trying to kill the system, they see others do it on tv, so they say, well im gonna make an impact, fuckin media is the issue.

[oly884]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


that would result in a lot of blown heads.

i wonder what is behind all these schools shootings. like sociologically/psychologically.
were thesre just as many in generations past, but they weren't so widely reported? it doesn't seem that way.
so what's triggering them?

sure many have been prevented by kids pointing out weird behavior in fellow students, but even one of these making it through to gunfire is too many.

i think identifying the risk factors and taking action on those should come first, having return "fire" be a secondary strategy.

it sucks some students have to go through security tighter than an airports almost just to get to class. glad i never had that experience.


I agree that there is an underlying issue here that is not being seen. The problem is, it can be a myriad of causes.

It's clear that these people do not have all their marbles handy, but asking why dives into a whole other issue. Abusive/neglectful parents, teased at school, stress, lack of friends, loss of a relationship. All these things can cause terrible reactions, but we can't control them.

I see part of the problem being that these people seem to blame others for their misfortunes, in some cases it could be justified, but ultimately we control how things affect our lives. A simple understanding that no matter how much life can suck, it can always get worse. Furthermore, some one may have his GF run off with another guy, fail his classes, and get evicted from his apartment, but two people are going to react two different ways. One may go on a shooting rampage, but another may look at it as a turning point to start a new life.

My personal feeling is that we may be seeing more of these shootings as a result of the attention they are receiving (not saying that they shouldn't be shown because people need to know of the status of the "safety" our schools and universities have).

Chances are these people are already looking to go nowhere with their life. In their sick little brains, they may decide that they want to be "remembered." Well, there are two ways to do that, do something good for society, or do something awful.

I can't say whether or not we can find a solution to this problem. People will always try to harm others, it's been going on forever. However, we need to be able to defend ourselves. These "gun free zones" over the past couple months have shown to be anything but that, and as a result, many innocent lives have been lost.

[reggie 00]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


There is wisdom in fighting fire with fire.


I would rather ask forgiveness after the fact.

I'm thinking if i pop the fool and I'm alive, and i wasn't technically supposed to have the gun in the first place, i'll take my chances. Point is I'm alive.

[oly884]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


There is wisdom in fighting fire with fire.


I would rather ask forgiveness after the fact.

I'm thinking if i pop the fool and I'm alive, and i wasn't technically supposed to have the gun in the first place, i'll take my chances. Point is I'm alive.


While rational people would look at it that way, there are many others who wouldn't.

I fear that this is what we are going to start to see, and as a result, the name of the lawful gun owner is going to be drug through the mud even more. We are going to be labeled as renegades and vigilantes rather than students.

[calrockx]

i'm not completely against guns, i just see "fighing fire with fire" in this case at attending to the symptoms not the illness. so that's why i stress preventative first, then reactive measures.

[Bob98SR5]

thats it im going to go get a gun now, if i see one idiot, im gonna blow his head off
this has got to stop


that would result in a lot of blown heads.

i wonder what is behind all these schools shootings. like sociologically/psychologically.
were thesre just as many in generations past, but they weren't so widely reported? it doesn't seem that way.
so what's triggering them?

sure many have been prevented by kids pointing out weird behavior in fellow students, but even one of these making it through to gunfire is too many.

i think identifying the risk factors and taking action on those should come first, having return "fire" be a secondary strategy.

it sucks some students have to go through security tighter than an airports almost just to get to class. glad i never had that experience.


the VT shooter guy was teased mercilessly by white kids in jr high and high school. all racial stuff as well as his lack of english fluency and his slight speech impediment. so too did those columbine kids. the "white hats", the popular kids in HS, teased those kids as well. as one of their few friends who was warned 'not to come to school that day', this particular friend said they were tormented everyday, slammed against lockers, etc.

root cause: people gotta learn to respect each other. you never know where someone's breaking point is nor how far they will carry out what they think is justice. some people have thick skin and/or other ways to cope, but some are a little disturbed and dont know how to fight back other than gross violence.

i recall too that the VT shooter was taking anti-depressants, was referred to counseling, but neither his parents, few friends, nor the university administration did jack to keep him accountable to his meds and counseling. in the few days after, the administration said they did not have much knowledge of cho, despite the fact that he almost burnt his dorm room down and stalked a girl in a dorm. its almost as if people are afraid to confront reality and get involved. imho, presumably because our society is so scared of 'confronting' someone for fear of some kind of retaliation, lawsuit, etc.

having said all that, it seems nutjobs are everywhere and i'm sickened that law abiding, sane citizens must take it up the ass and not be allowed to protect ourselves. if i had an opportunity to have a gun at work or a ccw to carry on me, i would. because no matter how responsible people are about themselves or their families, or how strict the gun laws are in a state, or how stringent and merciless the laws are for using a gun in a crime, the few hours it takes to buy a cheap ass gun off the streets and then shoot your perceived enemies in a classroom only takes a few minutes. like david said, id rather have a fighting chance than live in the pie in the sky notion that having a "Gun Free Zones" truly protects anyone

[patrickryanb]

I think its a bunch of kids who don't know how to deal with the fact that they are pissed off at the world. Tons of people get jealous too, they feel like there is no hope so they want to go out with a "bang" like in the movies. I personally wouldn't mind carrying my pistol, seems like you never know when you might have to use it. Another thing is I have seen the security people on my campus, they are kinda like mall security....they walk around, don't see them do much, and when you need them, they are no where to be seen. just my opinion Oly884 nice to see another Montana Yota!

patrick

[oly884]

i'm not completely against guns, i just see "fighing fire with fire" in this case at attending to the symptoms not the illness. so that's why i stress preventative first, then reactive measures.


The problem is, there's no quick fix to this problem. With that, I don't think there will ever be a complete fix to the problem either. While I do agree that preventative measures need to be taken. We can't try these preventative measures without utilizing secondary measures.

You can look at it generally like a vehicle's safety systems. We have anti-lock brakes and traction control. These are both preventative measures. But in the event that the preventative measures don't work, you have air bags and seatbelts.

When ABS and traction control came out, they didn't get rid of air-bags or seatbelts, they still employed them as a secondary safety measure.

To sum it up, I agree completely that we need to be looking at the root of the problem. However, we simply cannot wait to find the answers to these problems, because even if we find the problem, there's still millions of reasons people would want to harm others.

[neliconcept]

I see three resolutions

put these kids in programs, find out what their strenghts are, sports, various activities, whatever they like to do, get im a line on it and maybe they will put forth effort to resolute to better abilities in that sector.

when flags are raised on questions of a certain individual, get them immediate help, or other wise transfer them out to something where they can get the best help possible.

thrid, raise security, defend yourselfs at all times, with guns, i dont give a damn who you are, guns are needed in society whether or not you like it, they are there for a reason.

[Bob98SR5]

i heard a radio report today that said that the shooter confided in a professor at the school saying that he was discharged from basic training for pyschological reasons. when the press found out, they asked the army, but the army (like the medical profession) did not release the information nor could they release it either.

what if they did release it? would that be an invasion of privacy? but what if it led to the treatment of this kid, and presuming it wouldve been successful, would it have been worth the dissemenation of his condition to the proper mental health agency? just something to chew on.

the same show said that he'd been off his medication (like the VT killer) and said he was very violent as a result. this came from his last mental health evaluator.

so clearly again someone or our own institutions are not preventing this from happening. but i say that even if there was mental health intervention, the thoughts of murdering people and acting upon it may not be fully quelled by counseling or drugs. so what's a person to do?

i agree with oly: having the ability to legally arm yourself from people like them.

[drguitarum2005]

im not giving a full response to this issue, but just some food for thought: if one of yall had been there, you wouldnt have had your gun out and gotten a shot off until you realized that he was in there shooting and killing students. while yes, being able to shoot him would definitely stop him from creating MORE harm, it wouldnt have ever stopped the fact that he came into the classroom shooting to begin with. being able to carry on campus (which i mostly agree with) is a band-aid to a bigger problem and isn't going to STOP these things from happening, itll just possibly make them less severe

[oly884]

im not giving a full response to this issue, but just some food for thought: if one of yall had been there, you wouldnt have had your gun out and gotten a shot off until you realized that he was in there shooting and killing students. while yes, being able to shoot him would definitely stop him from creating MORE harm, it wouldnt have ever stopped the fact that he came into the classroom shooting to begin with. being able to carry on campus (which i mostly agree with) is a band-aid to a bigger problem and isn't going to STOP these things from happening, itll just possibly make them less severe


It is not my belief that allowing people to carry guns will prevent these things from happening. My intent was not to present my opinion in that manner.

Allowing it can possibly make a difference between five deaths and one death though.

We can't look at this issue by dealing with it one problem at a time. We ALL know there's serious problems with the shooters that we have seen. Societal, mental, or unknown issues drove them to commit these terrible actions.

The mistake cannot be made that "solving" the issues with these people will completely fix the problems. And I'll tell you right now, we will NEVER be able to solve these problems 100%. There will always be that one person that slipped through the cracks that never showed any signs, and then one day, something terrible happens. We cannot prevent these situations all the time unless we give every college student a psych exam every 6 months and put a fenced boarder around every campus. But I'm pretty sure that'd violate just a few of our constitutional rights.

This issue goes beyond the reasons why these people commit these crimes, it dives into our freedom to protect ourselves. I have the right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in this country. As far as I'm concerned, my right of life allows me to protect that very right if I am in fear of it being taken from me. I'm allowed to protect myself from an intruder on my own property, and if I am certified by the state to carry a concealed weapon (which I am) I can defend myself in most public places.

So the question must be raised, why should we create gun free zones? Statistics continually show that people who can legally carry a concealed weapon essentially do not commit crimes. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but the rates are so low one can make the argument. Where does the notion of gun free zones come from? Do people really believe that individuals (VT shooter, et. al.) will not carry a weapon onto campus because of the gun free zone? I'd be hard pressed to find a person that could honestly say that. These individuals had planned on breaking so many laws in the process of their actions that a simple gun free zone law would have no effect on their plans.

It's also clear that any means of the universities "ramping up" security does not have the positive impact that people hope. Even if a security guard is 2 minutes away, that's still 2 minutes too long. Especially when you realize how fast people can fire guns. When you take into consideration that a person, properly trained, carrying a concealed weapon could have it out of the holster and have a round off in a couple seconds...

Furthermore, these individuals decide to target these gun free zones because they are just that, gun FREE zones. And as I said before: "it's easier when the criminals KNOW who's packing." Sure you can put a guard in every classroom, but if you see any more shootings, you can be certain that the first target is the person with the means of stopping the criminal.

Like David brought up though, whether it was a gun free zone or not, this individual was so sick in the head it would have made no difference to him if people were packing or not. However, like it was said, it could make the difference between five lives and one life.

No sensible gun owner will tell you this is a fix to this problem, it's not. You can't fix the problem, because the problem is human nature. There are simply going to be humans that are messed up and will do horrific things. Some we can detect, others we can't. It's been that way though history, and it won't change. But allowing properly trained citizens to legally carry a concealed firearm is a sure fire means of changing the odds to favor the innocent.

[reggie 00]

I'm not giving a full response to this issue, but just some food for thought: if one of y'all had been there, you wouldn't have had your gun out and gotten a shot off until you realized that he was in there shooting and killing students. while yes, being able to shoot him would definitely stop him from creating MORE harm, it wouldn't have ever stopped the fact that he came into the classroom shooting to begin with. being able to carry on campus (which i mostly agree with) is a band-aid to a bigger problem and isn't going to STOP these things from happening, it ll just possibly make them less severe


Like said earlier there is not a whole lot we can do to fix the unbalanced people in society.

I dont see it as a band aid for the problem. And no its not going to stop those first shots from ringing out.

I would carry to protect myself. First and foremost its me and my family i worry about, then friends, and finally anyone else.

I'm not trying to be a vigilante, I'm just protecting me and mine.

there have been a few time i have had my gun in the car, loaded, under the seat. Had it there for the June lake trip. And yep i am sure i was at least breaking 4 or 5 laws. But i would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

And the bad never inescapable fact is after wards even if you held off a group of known escaped convict rapists from pillaging a girl scout camp, the people against gun ownership will twist it into something evil and fire up people against gun owners. and chip away another sliver of peoples rights.

Makes you wonder after they have succeeded in banning all gun owner ship, whats going to be next? freedom of speech? Cause you know they have to be fing up something or they are just not happy.

[fustercluck]

im not giving a full response to this issue, but just some food for thought: if one of yall had been there, you wouldnt have had your gun out and gotten a shot off until you realized that he was in there shooting and killing students. while yes, being able to shoot him would definitely stop him from creating MORE harm, it wouldnt have ever stopped the fact that he came into the classroom shooting to begin with. being able to carry on campus (which i mostly agree with) is a band-aid to a bigger problem and isn't going to STOP these things from happening, itll just possibly make them less severe


This wasn't a 'Quickdraw McGraw' moment. The perp had four firearms and took time to reload while shooting. The victims were ducks in a barrel. The only real solution to this is the one no one will consider.

[patrickryanb]

I agree with Reggie. I carry my pistol in the car on camping trips and whatnot. With the way people are today, I would get more time for shooting someone who was attacking my family/friends then they would get for attacking me...what can you do though. All the gun control people still have that mentality of "guns kill people". Its like if there was more qualified people with concealed licence permits that sob that comes into public places would stand less of a chance of hurting people. Notice i said qualified people though. Obviously we can't have everyone and their brother carrying peace makers. If your background checks out pass all the necessary tests. I do think gun purchases are not strict enough. I know a kid here in my town who has so many mental problems he can't even drive a car, but he OWNS handguns. He is really a messed up person. His mental state causes me concern.

One final thought, if you have a gun in the car and you get pulled over, make sure to let the cop know. ha ha. We were Prairie dog hunting and needless to say had guns all over the car, but we let the cop know and he was totally cool with it.

patrick

[bamachem]

I don't think this will stop 100% of the shootings but I think it would make some of them think before they acted. Shootings really started in the last 10 years which also happens to be the same timeframe that gun free zones became more and more popular. Coincidence? I think not...

[Bob98SR5]

Its like if there was more qualified people with concealed licence permits that sob that comes into public places would stand less of a chance of hurting people. Notice i said qualified people though. Obviously we can't have everyone and their brother carrying peace makers. If your background checks out pass all the necessary tests.


what really bothers me about the 2nd amendment/gun control issue is that the onus is on banning guns vs testing people for the right to purchase of guns. imho, if there was a strict background check and a thorough mental evaluation of the person (like the police and military do) before he/she can buy a gun, i'd have more confidence in people owning guns than i do now. there's a clear problem of people who should not own firearms and that is the problem.

and to take it a step further, in order to obtain a ccw, there should be an even stricter test which includes a safety and shooting competency course with an annual (or some other time interval) re-testing.

[oly884]

Its like if there was more qualified people with concealed licence permits that sob that comes into public places would stand less of a chance of hurting people. Notice i said qualified people though. Obviously we can't have everyone and their brother carrying peace makers. If your background checks out pass all the necessary tests.


what really bothers me about the 2nd amendment/gun control issue is that the onus is on banning guns vs testing people for the right to purchase of guns. imho, if there was a strict background check and a thorough mental evaluation of the person (like the police and military do) before he/she can buy a gun, i'd have more confidence in people owning guns than i do now. there's a clear problem of people who should not own firearms and that is the problem.

and to take it a step further, in order to obtain a ccw, there should be an even stricter test which includes a safety and shooting competency course with an annual (or some other time interval) re-testing.




The problem I see, Bob, is that once you set such high standards for owning guns, what happens if there's the slightest blip in your history? No more guns for you? What happens when a person who passes through all these hoops to get a gun (no blips in his history, good citizen, seems normal, etc.) goes on a shooting rampage? This doesn't include how impossible it would be to "mentally evaluate" every person who buys a gun.

Furthermore, you can't prevent people from getting guns. If one of these sick people decides to go on a murderous rampage, then they can get a gun. Remember, not all guns are bought in stores, how do you think repeat criminals get guns?

The second amendment grants us the right to ownership of guns. Once you start down the path of requiring a unrealistic level of background checks and personality checks you are not far from banning guns all together.

Bad people WILL get guns and they WILL do bad things, that cannot be changed. We can only protect ourselves.

As to the CCW testing, I was required to take a test, however this was a one time deal and required to obtain my license. I'm not opposed to require training for CCW licenses it will give the license holder more confidence and/or practice of what they already know.

[oly884]

The only real solution to this is the one no one will consider.

So very true Fuster.