Illegal Immigrants'

[Ric]

I was shocked to read http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html
then this came to me, some realtime numbers http://www.immigrationcounters.com/ I hope none of your, jobs are one of these.

[fustercluck]

I eventually abandoned my first entreprenurial effort because the labor pool was tainted by illegal immigrants. My competition had no ideological conflict about hiring and paying them cash under the table. I could see that soon I would no longer be able to compete, so I layed everyone off and pursued other opportunities. I still feel bad for the 15 families that depended on my company's success. Likely they live with suppressed wages and no benefits.

[gilby4runner]

When i recently built my house i refused to use illegals. I know whats coming..."how do you know they were illegal?" If they cant understand a few simple English words then i can easily put two and two together. One of the first questions i asked contractors was about the workers status. Call me what you will but it really bothers me that a legal citizen is losing money and work due to illegal crews undercutting prices. I am sure they are good and skilled workers in most cases but i hate to see a local person with a family to feed losing work.

[neliconcept]

When i recently built my house i refused to use illegals. I know whats coming..."how do you know they were illegal?" If they cant understand a few simple English words then i can easily put two and two together. One of the first questions i asked contractors was about the workers status. Call me what you will but it really bothers me that a legal citizen is losing money and work due to illegal crews undercutting prices. I am sure they are good and skilled workers in most cases but i hate to see a local person with a family to feed losing work.


especially one that pays taxes!

[fustercluck]

I'm afflicted by the various news stories designed to tug at the heart strings by explaining the consequential injustice of correcting the mistake of allowing illegal immigration. They lament the hardship of the children who've only ever known the US. They gnash their teeth at the straw man idea of 'splitting up families'. They assail us with accusations of xenophobia and racism.

The fact is that all of these and those I neglected to mention fail to place blame/responsibility upon the shoulders of those to whom it belongs. Until our society resumes proper recognition of first cause and acceptance of consequence, we are doomed eventually.

[Seanz0rz]

beyond the assult on the workforce, i feel its a slap in the face to everyone who came here legally, lived here for 10 years and fought to get their citizenship because they truely love this country.

i do feel sorry for the individuals though, its hard to say i wouldnt do the exact same if i was in the same situation. that still does not make it right though.

[localmotion]

Working in law enforcement, I see many people, illegal or not, committing crimes. The illegals main intent, when they come to the United States, is to work, make a better life for themselves, and send money back to the motherland to support their family. I think everyone should have an opportunity to make their lives better, whether it may be them coming over illegally or not.

It is sad when the illegals come over, work, spend their money on booze, dope and polla bonitas (Prostitutes). It is also sad to see them driving without licenses and insurance. Many of them have only been in the states for a couple of years and have not assimilated, some by choice and some because they do not have the opportunity.

Every illegal I have dealt with have been 100000x more respectful than any legal citizen. They know they are in the wrong and will man up to the consequences. It almost seems being legal makes us feel entitled to being immune to certain laws.

As long as the illegals come to work, stay out of trouble and make their lives better, I am all for it. As soon as they screw up, send 'em back.

Sorry for the jumbled responses, I, like Batman, haven't had much sleep...haha

[Ric]

When i recently built my house i refused to use illegals. I know whats coming..."how do you know they were illegal?" If they cant understand a few simple English words then i can easily put two and two together. One of the first questions i asked contractors was about the workers status. Call me what you will but it really bothers me that a legal citizen is losing money and work due to illegal crews undercutting prices. I am sure they are good and skilled workers in most cases but i hate to see a local person with a family to feed losing work.
amen :thumbup: good for you :clap: and yes, if they cant understand english, its a safe bet, that they are not a citizen.

hey localmotion, not trying to piss ya off, here you said
They know they are in the wrong and will man up to the consequences I have to disagree with you, my roommates brother in law was hit by an Illegal, it was a hit and run, they found him, he just took off back across the boarder, leaving Roy, to fix his brand new Accord, then his rates have gone up.. is that "manning up"
The other day on the news, another van full of illegals was stopped, the driver has been deported 16 times The business owners that hire them need to go to prison (not jail) maybe that will start to curve the need or the desire to come here illegally.
Ive talked to local police, they say there are soo many illegals that do hit and runs, robberies here, and nothing is done, becuase once they commit a crime, and the heat gets close to them, they just run back for a few months, then they are back here committing more crimes.


Posted by: Seanz0rz
Insert Quote
beyond the assult on the workforce, i feel its a slap in the face to everyone who came here legally, lived here for 10 years and fought to get their citizenship because they truely love this country.


amen... it can be done legally.

[Ric]

one other point, I really appreciate, that so far this has been polite and nice, no one is being rude or getting out of hand :bowdown:

[localmotion]

well as long as the topic stays educated, it should go alright.

So with one instance, you are labeling all of them as irresponsible?

I think its the 10% that you hear of that ruins if for the rest of them.

[gilby4runner]

localmotion- I see your argument but i also see the reports of emergency room times being increased due to the influx of ER usage. The diseases that are making a come back due to people crossing the boarder. Teachers having to deal with students that cant speak a lick of english. I repeatedly see stories on the local news about repeat offenders and DUI accidents and hearing how hard their lives are... i dont buy it. I admire the fact that people want to better their lives and the live of their families but at what cost? There are legal ways and they are not being followed. In a perfect world (at least my vision of it) we would all put our days worth of work in and be happy. The people who refuse to work can go elsewhere. The fact of the matter is that not all our illegals work, most dont have insurance, or have proper ID's. We are not making the process any harder. There is a bill that is up for consideration that would make it only a misdemeanor for illegals to forge ID's and Drivers Licences. Sorry for the rant and jumbled words...this just gets to me a little

[04 Rocko Taco]

well as long as the topic stays educated, it should go alright.

So with one instance, you are labeling all of them as irresponsible?

I think its the 10% that you hear of that ruins if for the rest of them.


No, what ruins it for the rest of them is that they are here illegaly.

if I were to rob a bank, but do it politely and not hurt anyone, dont shoot anyone, be very polite to the tellers when I ask them to fill the bags, and very respectful when I request that the security guys lay down thier weapons and lay face down on the floor, and then leave with the cash, with which I am just trying to better my life, does that make it okay?

I think not.

Before you say it, i know it's different, robbing banks is illegal...so is coming to this country...illegaly.

That is all.

[Seanz0rz]

working here is illegal, both for you and especially the employer. i think it would be best if we came down on people giving them jobs, mandatory prison sentences, huge fines, revocation of business licenses, etc.

[Ric]

its NOT just one, case, its on the news here everyday, about how an illegal(s) rape, kill, rob, do hit and runs, every night, its on the news, that what just a personal situation.
Im sure most people would feel alot different, if it was thier 12 yr. old daughter that was raped by an illegal, and the police knowing who did it, but he just skates back across the boarder so he wouldnt do any time.

No, what ruins it for the rest of them is that they are here illegaly. true.


if I were to rob a bank, but do it politely and not hurt anyone, dont shoot anyone, be very polite to the tellers when I ask them to fill the bags, and very respectful when I request that the security guys lay down thier weapons and lay face down on the floor, and then leave with the cash, with which I am just trying to better my life, does that make it okay?

I think not.

Before you say it, i know it's different, robbing banks is illegal...so is coming to this country...illegaly. Ive been saying that years, and no one has ever had a decent comeback. its such a great compairison..
Illegal is Illegal period.
but the point to my thread was I hope none of you here, has lost a job, due to an illegal.
Imean we all, everyone one of us, are paying for them to be here, everytime they go to the ER, who pays for that ???

[scottiac]

I have no problem with people wanting to come here and make a better life for them. It's the American Way, at least to the point where the economy can survive it.

I have a problem with them doing it illegally. (For almost all of the reasons stated elsewhere.)

As a point for discussion, i.e. not sure if I like it myself, but:

What if we were to up the immigration quotas by an amount roughly commensurate with the number of illegals currently coming in to the country so they could do it legally (since they're going to do it anyway), and then crack down like holy hell on those that come in illegally beyond that?

Set the quotas based on availability of jobs, stability of the economy, etc.

If the economy can adapt to them arriving illegally, shouldn't it be able to adapt to them arriving legally?

Yes, there are economic complexities involved, but they are scarcely worse than the complexities of the current system.

Back to my lunch...

[Bob98SR5]

take away the incentives and fine the businesses and illegal immigration will disappear...like what is happening in AZ and what NM is proposing. research AZ illegal immigration flight in google and read what i'm talking about

[ecchamberlin]

Going off the second web site that Ric put in his first posting, if you add the number of illegals in our prison systems and the number of known illegal fugitives who have committed crimes it is roughly a million.

If there are roughly 10 million illegals here that makes 1/10th of them criminals.

I am not a smart guy but I don't think 1/10th of legal citizens are criminals as in prisoners or fugitives even if a lot of our countrymen are rude and disrespectful.

[fustercluck]

Okay, here's the deal as I perceive it. Yes it is the American way to offer opportunity to every soul on earth. I am down with that struggle. Unfortunately, America is not the America it used to be. We have listed toward socialism and hence the playing field is no longer level. I am convinced that I can compete with anyone all things being equal, but when someone gets an advantage to which I have no access, and they use it to leverage against my ability to compete in the market, then there will be inevitable collapse.....even if they are nice and polite to the authorities whose charge it is to protect CITIZENS.

To the extent that we veer toward socialism is the degree to which altruistic attitudes toward our neighbors will be impossible.

[neliconcept]

I have a question, if its so damn easy for them to get in, then what does that make our security against terrorist? we could have a damn invasion from mexico of cubans/russians/whoever wants to blow us up, and start WWIII.

they should look at this border patrol as a matter of life and death, not oh hey hes orange let em through

[Ric]

If there are roughly 10 million illegals here that makes 1/10th of them criminals.
your missing the point, if they are here illegally, that right there, makes them a criminal. hence the term "illegal" doesnt matter if 1/10th of them commit ANOTHER crime and get caught.


I have a question, if its so damn easy for them to get in, then what does that make our security against terrorist? we could have a damn invasion from mexico of cubans/russians/whoever wants to blow us up, and start WWIII.

VERY good point. now this is just a thought, but what if, the people responsible for 9-11 came through mexico or canada ? Id assume we would already have tighter boarders, I hate to say it, but thats what will probley have to happen, before we tighten the boarders.

[Ric]

If we dont tighten our boarders now, our country will be as bad as the country the illegals are leaving.

[ecchamberlin]

[quote]If there are roughly 10 million illegals here that makes 1/10th of them criminals.
your missing the point, if they are here illegally, that right there, makes them a criminal. hence the term "illegal" doesnt matter if 1/10th of them commit ANOTHER crime and get caught.[quote]

I think I get the point Ric. My post was in ref to Local's posting about how the ones he has dealt with are just looking for work and are polite. The facts just don't support it. I did some looking into it for comparison. The ratio of Americans who are criminals is 1/142 vs the 1/10 for illegal immigrants.

There are some that are looking for honest work and trying to support their families. In fact I got to talking to one of the guys (Mexican)that works at the Goodyear shop in Imperial Beach(Border Town). He ownes a home in TJ and commutes the border every day totally legit. Honest guy with an honest job who is doing it right. Hell, I know of Americans who own homes in Mexico because they are so cheap and commute the border every day also. But it is all legal and that is the difference.

This all is a real issue here in extreme southern California. Borderpatrol officers are at war as far as I am concerned and should be part of the Department of Defense. What job better fits that title?

Grand theft Auto is insane here!

[localmotion]

I am not arguing that we should let illegals in uncontrolled. I am just speaking from what I personally deal with, which is obviously different from what you deal with out on the West Coast.

The Hispanic population in Richmond has increased something like 800% and many of them do not have the papers. I think we ought to kick the ones who are worthless out and try to give the ones who are working, staying out of trouble and assimilating, a way to become legal. Thats just my .02.

[fustercluck]

If they are willing to step forward and be counted, get off social support structures for five years and verifiably assimilate, then I don't care if they stay....in fact they are welcome. This of course after the border has been secured and tough incentive extinguishing measures are in place.

[ecchamberlin]

Local I think that your location has a lot to do with the types of illegals you deal with. That far from the border you have many who are into agriculture and other honest types of employment whether it be legal or not. Here in the border areas the dregs commit their crimes in relative safety of the close border to slip back across. The further they get from the border the safer they have to play it.

I recognize that our points of view are different indeed.

As far as being polite to officers, they probably think I am a kiss a$$ I am so polite. My dad raised me that way and my son will be raised the same way. He has no choice in the mater! LOL Really sucks that you have to deal with people like that here in this country of ours.

[localmotion]

Eric, I agree. I think my being so far away from the border, I am blind/ignorant to what really goes on further south. I guess I get the better bunch of the illegals. I have also come to the understanding that people generally dont like LEOs because we have a very negative reputation...afterall, we have the only job that can take your civil liberties away.

I agree that illegal immigrants are causing a nuisance, but dont agree that we should kick them all out. CHEERS!

[ecchamberlin]

I don't think kicking them out is even logistically possible. I do a lot of embarkation planning at work and the resources required to move 10 million people is proposterous, reguardless of how people may feel about the illegals. So it then becomes a problem solving debate on how to bring then into legit standings.

IMO deportation of 10M people is not an option. The 400,000 in our prison system is a different story though. We know exactly where they are. Fix the borders and then send them home period.

[expatoz]

Not that it really adds much to the thread, but it is frustrating to me as an immigrant doing it the "right way" that I am paying 10's of thousands to eventually get a green card while many others seem to get in "free of charge."

I do symapathasize with the plight many illegals face however. Unfortunately being in the privilege majority allows you/me certain rights and privileges others don't get, simply by where they/you/me were born geographically. Also unfortaunately the priviledged majority do wittingly and unwittingly forced others to stay disadvanatged due to fear of losing what they/we feel is deservedly our "right". I guess its our nature to protect what's "ours" but it sure comes at a cost to others.

ugghh...sorry for the spelling mistakes :screwy:

[Ric]

ok, heres a question, if we give amnitsty to the illegals now, why shouldnt we just let "everyone" out of prison ???????

I mean the people in prison committed a crime also. right ? so why not let them go free, if they promise to get a job, pay taxes, say they are sorry, etc..

expatoz,
much respect for you :bowdown: you are a true Gentleman, you have pride and honor for going about it the right way :clap:

[ecchamberlin]

I think perhaps things are being over simplified. We could take the broke the law thing to all kinds of extremes. If you have ever gone over the speed limit then you broke the law and should be in jail... There is a sliding rule as far as how much you broke the law and the extents of punishment for the severity of your crime/crimes. Speeding is a crime. So that makes me a criminal if we want to get literal.

So to your question of why shouldn't we just let everyone out of prison I say because we as a country can not sit back and simply tell people not to come here while our borders are not even close to secured. Human beings will always seek opportunities. It would be like putting no hunting signs up on property without a fence or a resonable ratio of man power to enforce the sign/law.

Is it still a crime? Yes.

Do we bear some responsibiliy for the current condition of our borders? I think we absolutely do.

If Americans were not hiring them or renting to them they would not be here. Do we send all of those hundreds of thousands of Americans to prison also. They broke the law and are therefore criminals right?




Heres another question, how do you round up and deport 10 million illegals? Physically and Fiscally?

[Ric]

If you have ever gone over the speed limit then you broke the law and should be in jail...
thats just an silly statement, a going over the posted speed limit, ussually doesnt mean "jail" time..
Yes, I have broken the law before, and yes, I did my time or paid my fine.
Have I ever broke a "federal" law, NO...
but when someone comes over here illegally, they violate a federal law, then when they get a job under the table, they violate other laws by not paying taxes, and putting a American out of work, then, when they get hurt on that job, and go the ER, who pays for that ?? you do, I do, every honest American pays for it. When that illegal gets into an accident, who pays for that ????? tso yea, when they come over here illegally they committ more than just one crime.
yea, they cost you, they cost me, they cost everyone more than just money.


If Americans were not hiring them or renting to them they would not be here. I cant agree with ya enough...


Heres another question, how do you round up and deport 10 million illegals? Physically and Fiscally
thats an whole other thread, lol but make them walk, then GUARD the boarder with the military or national guard, reservist, etc. it can be done. Put the poeple hiring them, renting to them, in prison.

[ecchamberlin]

My question is not another thread. It is the same exact issue. It is just easier to say what we should do than figure out how to actually do it.

When you get into the how to do what you are talking about the soap box gets a little shorter. It is not a simple issue. It is not as easy as saying kick them out.

You agree about the illegal hiring of them but did not agree about convicting the hundreds of thousands of Americans who DID hire them.

As for my silly statement, it was intentionally extreme like I stated and is no more silly than likening convicted murderers and rapists (American prisoners) to someone who illegally crossed our border. So you would rather have Manson walking in your neighborhood than a illegal?

[Seanz0rz]

So you would rather have Manson walking in your neighborhood than a illegal?

of course not, but i think the fear is (rightfully so) that an illegal manson could be on the streets.

of course there is no easy solution, if there was, we would have implimented it by now.

my vote: enforce the laws we have now about hiring illegals, remove the jobs, most will go back, close off the boarders, and then maybe even increase the quota (if there is one) of immigrants allowed into this country, legally. i would be fine with that.

id also like to say, paying these people significantly less than minimum wage is not right for them either. we all know its hard enough to support a family on our relatively good wages, its nearly impossible to do that on minimum wage, and i dont see how anyone makes it on less than that. is it right we pay them 2-3 dollars an hour when minimum wage (in CA) is 7.25? i dont think so.

personally, i refuse to hire or shop at a place that i know hires illegals. obviously i cant stop anything, but i do what i can. i do my own lawn work, wash my own car, etc.

[4runnerchevy]

Illegal immigrants, should treated like criminals, or take the illegal out of it. We should prosecute business owners who hire them, as well as homeowners who rent to them. I believe they call it aiding a criminal, or harboring a fugitive.

[gilby4runner]

I don't think kicking them out is even logistically possible. I do a lot of embarkation planning at work and the resources required to move 10 million people is proposterous, reguardless of how people may feel about the illegals. So it then becomes a problem solving debate on how to bring then into legit standings.

IMO deportation of 10M people is not an option. The 400,000 in our prison system is a different story though. We know exactly where they are. Fix the borders and then send them home period.

I agree with you about sending the ones that are currently in our jail system home. IMHO if your illegal and in this country the first run in with the law should be the last. I know Grey hound and Amtrack (sp?) are not as prosperous as they have been in the past. I say we give them the contract to start shipping to the boarder. That would help the economy...lol

[Bob98SR5]

we really need to charge the countries of the people who 'inhabit' our jails. we always have some kind of aid (read = free money) going to many countries...so why not just take it out of that?

sending the criminal illegals does nothing but let them out so they can return to do more crimes. id rather have them rot in jail despite the costs

[racer944]

ok guys, not to be a complete arse, but ya'll need to start thinking hard about the whole problem. If you think you never shop/eat/stay in places that don't hire illegals, you need a better glimpse into their lives. I pretty much guarantee that every single hotel (3 star and up) that you have ever stayed at employs illegals. Most fast food places, a lot of higher end restaurants, and the like employ them. Now going after these people is not as easy as you would like to think. They borrow other's SSN's, go through staffing companies that provide false, verifiable papers and are way ahead of the measures that ya'll are suggesting.

Think that you can really kick them out or go after business owners? Nah, our economy has been based off their work for years, it would be very difficult to get them to leave. The easier thing? Go with an assimilation program or some other way to get them to become citizens. Or better yet, revitalize the naturalization process that's in place. The way I view this as working goes like this: The Great Wall of America. Once it's in place, put in a program similar to what scottiac was suggesting.

Another way to think of things is the US should be treated almost like a business. We should try to get people to come here. It helps the economy, even more jobs for people.

Also, let's not use the strawman argument of throwing them in jail. It's not feasible, possible, or even a great idea. It's just a way to focus on useless arguments.