3rd Gen IFS skidplate buildup

[Seanz0rz]

So, it is time for me to get serious and ditch the stock skidplate. my most recent outing saw me land squarely on the left front corner of it, and its much worse for wear because of it. after 2 years of pretty hard wheeling, its trashed...

here are the carnage pictures:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0019.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0021.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0022.jpg

actually bent the front cross member:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0020.jpg

not to mention the complete lack of coverage for any components past the steering rack:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0023.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0024.jpg

so, time for some serious hardware to go under there. since my front cross member is bent, buying a budbuilt is not really an option, not to mention i cant really afford to splash 450 dollars on something i could build for under 100 with a little blood, sweat, and engineering. i plan on making this in 3 main pieces. the forward angle, which will end up taking the lion's share of impacts and scratches, a under-engine skid to protect the oil pan (but is removable to facilitate easy oil changes) and the belly pan to protect the trans and tcase.

here is a very rough drawing, just concept, bottom view:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/skid.jpg

it will bolt to the bottom side of the bumper, the original front cross member and the other stock mounting locations. i am using 11 gauge steel, just a tick under 1/8th inch thick. i plan on reinforcing key points of the skid with perpendicular ribs, etc. all bolts will be recessed to protect the bolt heads.

plan on getting started on this on saturday and hopefully be finished by monday or tuesday(at least the front part of the skid, the belly can wait)

[20005spd]

i dont know how hard you wheel but i made an 1/8th inch thick skid plate that was similar to bud builts belly pan and it was not thick enough, it bent and deformed. i added some angle iron on the top and it still didnt help. i would recommend atleast 3/16th. the bud builts are worth the money. and how was your radiator after that hit you took? thats a tender spot :D

[CJM]

3/16 of an inch and make sure you create them gouge supports (i cant recall the exact name atm). Those little gouges/lines help strengthen the metal really well.

Also steel is your friend, frig aluminum.

[Seanz0rz]

the skid is about 1/32 inch away from the rad, JUST missed it! no leaks so must be ok. its been folded up against the engine cross member before, just under the oil pan. ive needed a new one for a LONG time.

as for the thickness, i very much believe in engineering over brute force. going up to 3/16 inch plate adds another 2.5-3 pounds per square foot (approx). i think with proper bracing, i should be ok. in addition to that, so far i haven't "needed" a belly skid, i just want the extra protection, keeping rocks from taking out a u joint on the outputs or nailing the transmission pan on a sharp rock. i really am trying to keep the weight down.

[4x4mike]

I've made 2 belly like pans to cover the tranny and transfer case all the way back to the gas tank. I have to look around to see if I have any pictures. I also made a new rear factory section. You know the back piece of the factory 2 piece design. I haven't done anything with the front because I don't have access to a welder or press brake. I bought a sheet (4 x 8) of 12 gage steel about a year ago and have been cutting it up for projects.

[4x4mike]

Not to hijack your thread but here is what I've made.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/DSC06276.jpg

It's upside down but all bolted together. The little lip at the bottom presses up against the gas tank skid when mounted. The best case senerio is that a rock will "slide" rearward and if it's on a course to the gas tank the rock will "transfer" from the belly to the gas tank skid and hopefully not smack the axle housing. The top piece no longer clips in to the factory front piece but does bolt into factory holes (X4). The front 2 holes are the same as factory and the rear 2 for the top piece also hold the front section of the middle piece shown. The rear holes on the middle piece hold the front of the rear piece. The rear piece has holes to hold itself on. I used 3" long (or so) grade 5 bolts that go though factory holes in the cross members and have lock washers and nylock nuts. After this picture was taken I did cut a round hole, traced the factory one, in the top piece so I can change the oil with out dropping all of this. I think all of this weights about 40 pounds but hope that it's worth it's weight in gold. The 2 rear pieces hang up in the garage until play time.

[Seanz0rz]

by all means, post up what you have! the more the better.

[4x4mike]

Like I said that's all I got. It was cheap and easy, just how I like it. If I have time or really want to I might put some speed holes in it. Problem is I'd have to buy a dimple die (darn) but drilling the holes doesn't sound fun. I tried to do one on a scrap piece and it took forever to get half way through. I've seen the high dollar nice hole saws but I'm not all that excited about the whole thing. Changing the shape, kind of like / \, crossed my mine but who cares. It's bolted on the bottom of the rig and it's supposed to protect and get beat up. This was plenty of cutting anyways.

[glenyoshida]

Pretty cool dude. That looks like a fun project. Let us know how the belly skids do in comparison to the front skid once you've banged them up some.

I hear ya on the weight thing. I can feel a difference when I have my spare on or off and that's only 85 lbs. I can only imagine how a full belly skid would affect things (300 lbs?). I looked into honeycomb core (poor point impact strength) and most recently I've thought about laminating a stainless skin on an aluminum base (expensive for the epoxy and poor Plastic Range for the aluminum). I always seem to come back to regular ole steel. Heavy as it is it's hard to beat the performance and price. I've seen a couple of guys dent Budbuilt's 3/16" front skid. Amazing to me that 3/16 will dent. I suppose better to be slow up the hill than stuck on the trail right. lol

What do you think about welding on some 1" 11 AWG fins to add some strength? It won't stop the smaller dents but might keep the major impacts from forming deep and large dents?

Can't wait to see the finished skids!

[20005spd]

i have bent my bud built front skid and last night i was sledgehammering the bud built belly pan back into shape. i also made a gas tank skid out of 3/16th and i honestly dont notice the weight difference. i think its the only way to go if you wanna send your truck through hard trails with SASed trucks all day.

[Seanz0rz]

What do you think about welding on some 1" 11 AWG fins to add some strength? It won't stop the smaller dents but might keep the major impacts from forming deep and large dents?


that was the plan on the fins, i might do a box design with half lap joints, esp on the front skid and the belly pan.

[4x4mike]

I hear ya on the weight thing. I can feel a difference when I have my spare on or off and that's only 85 lbs. I can only imagine how a full belly skid would affect things (300 lbs?).

I'd say mine don't weigh more than 50 pounds. There is no reason for me to have anything thicker or heavier. I'm not in the business of destryoing the vehicle and would rather save on gas and hone my wheeling skills.

[slosurfer]

Sean, what thickness are you using? Sorry, I couldn't find it, only found what you weren't useing.

[Seanz0rz]

11 gauge, its just a tiny bit under 1/8" thick. weighs about 5 pounds/square foot.



I'd say mine don't weigh more than 50 pounds. There is no reason for me to have anything thicker or heavier. I'm not in the business of destryoing the vehicle and would rather save on gas and hone my wheeling skills.


exactly. i wheel pretty hard, but im not in the business of tearing up my vehicle. i try to be damn careful.

[JOSHH]

No less than 1/2". Come on, quit scewing around. :D

[paddlenbike]

I agree with the engineered solution over a 150 pound plate. Scottiac takes his Skidrow skidplates on and off because he is seeing a 1-1.5 mpg reduction with them on. I am anxious to see what you come up with Sean--something that offers better protection than we have now but doesn't kill the gas mileage. Mine is a DD, so that is important to me.

[Whitey]

Here is a lightweight alternative:
http://www.toyota120.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316&highlight=skid+plate

[RunnerUp]

hey man, i have basically THE EXACT skids you want, mine bolt to my ARB and go until my gas tank where i still have the stock skid (dont ask) if you want i can take some pictures and measurements for you when i take off the front one to do an oil change in 2 weeks.

mine are 3/16" thick with ribbing down the middle and sides, REALLY stout, slammed them down on a few rocks up at tellico and no dents, though i do have a pretty serious slit down the front one where i slid over a sharp rock.... let me know if you want those pics and measuremnts

[RunnerUp]

here you can see my front skid...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/runnerup/Tellico/tellico175.jpg

[glenyoshida]

My Budbuilt front skid is 62 lbs, the belly is 52 lbs. The 11 mild that I have weighs right at 5 lbs/ft2 and 3/16 mild I have laying around weighs about 7.66 lbs/ft2.

So I suppose you would be saving about 41 lbs or so for a front and belly. Is that the about the same numbers you came up with?

Box design would be sick! I'd love to see some good engineering on that. Probably could shave off 60 lbs for a front and belly skid with a good design? Lots of work though. I'd like to say I'm that motivated but I usually just end up thinking a lot about it then getting sleepy with knowing glances at the couch.

[freejake3]

Good luck with the design. THe only way to know if something will hold up is to build it, wheel it, and hopefully not break it; if so just take that lesson and improve on your previous design. I have had a front skid (it goes just beyond the steering rack) in my garage for quite some time but really need to start thinking on mounting options before this wheeling season. I need to upgrade the front coils to 881's before doing so due to the weight increase. My 880's would not take the additional weight.

This is what I have for both the gas tank and the transfer case. THe gas tank skid weights around 30 lbs and I'm guessing the transfer case skid weighs just a shade under.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m253/affinis/skids/Sheep040.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m253/affinis/skids/Sheep038.jpg

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m253/affinis/skids/Sheep039.jpg

[glenyoshida]

Really cool skids. That must have taken some time to fab up. Looks great!

[Seanz0rz]

ok, way past due to update this thread, but its been a busy few weeks!

so i got my steel, 4x8 sheet of 11 gauge. i started at the beginning.

after i cut my sheet in half (for ease of use), i cut out the basic shape of the front skid.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid001.jpg

all of this was done with basic hand tools, a 4.5 inch angle grinder, and a tsquare.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid002.jpg

the front portion of this skid mounts to the bottom of my shrockworks bumper with 4 3/8" bolts. the skid is welded to a 1.5 inch piece of angle iron. here you can see the gussets i finished yesterday.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid012.jpg

i tapered the skid between the width of the front bumper and the distance between the IFS lower control arms. i scored the metal and bent it up, welding the cutline. it provides rigidity and looks cool!
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid004.jpg

then i had to make brackets to bolt up to the stock location on the engine crossmember
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid003.jpg

and here is what it looked like before i cut some more holes in it:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid007.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid008.jpg

i decided to cut some holes in the skid to match my bumper.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid009.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid010.jpg

and here is how it stands right now:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid011.jpg

next weekend's project is to start and finish the bracing on the back side. once im done with that i can start on the piece that goes under the engine, and continue on with a belly pan.

im having a very good time working on this, i have learned alot!

and a HUGE thanks to Jenn (JnJ) as she did alot of the welding on this project! (anything that looks good is hers!)
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid006.jpg

[neliconcept]

i like it so far :)

[paddlenbike]

me too

[Tankota]

Looks pretty good. :wrenchin:

One suggestion on the welding. I think you need to turn up the heat a little on your welder.
Here it looks like they're not penetrating very well.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid004.jpg

[Seanz0rz]

those are jenn's! haha

actually i was looking over them this weekend, i might go back and grind them flat and refill, or just lay another bead down them on either side (proper t-joint style)

[Tankota]

hehe, dont worry. Not every one can make their welds look like mossyrocks fab.
They dont have to look pretty, they just have to be strong. A penetrating weld is a strong weld (mostly). You dont want cold welds.

I would run two new beads along those. Make sure they're hot ones though. Get as close as you can to burning though with actually doing it.


-edit- I'm sure you saw this. Just want to drive the point home :flipoff:
http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=5741.msg57240;topicseen#new

[Seanz0rz]

yes, you want to buy me a dimple die and a press? i dont really like the dimple die look anyway, at least not for me and what im going for with this skidplate.

back will be ribbed for her pleasure. stay tuned for that. im estimating maybe next weekend, deff the weekend after.

[4x4mike]

Looks pretty good. :wrenchin:

One suggestion on the welding. I think you need to turn up the heat a little on your welder.
Here it looks like they're not penetrating very well.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid004.jpg


I was going to say the same thing. I don't think you'll blow any holes through the metal but there should be "heat marks" on the other side of the work. A good penetrating weld will have a heat effected zone on the back side of the work. If it doesn't it's a cold weld and will break.

I'm totally new at welding and have spent a bunch of time practicing on scrap and little projects to get my technique (the word technique is a stretch) and settings down.

[Seanz0rz]

oh i think i should mention that the welds in question are NOT joining two pieces together, just filling in a score i did to bend the metal (1/16 inch deep but the hole closed up when i bent it)

there will also be gussets on those parts.

[Seanz0rz]

so the last few days has been good for this skidplate. thursday night, in my insomnia, i figured out a spectacular way to attach the lower skid with out having bolts hanging down.

today, i managed to get some more work done on it:
Cross braces welded in:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0683.jpg

skidplate got wet in the storm we had before thanksgiving. going to have to attack it in some rust converter before i finally paint it. im thinking the entire back side will get thoroughly coated in bedliner.

look, i finally learned how to weld! id say about half my welds look like this now!
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0686.jpg

heres where i stopped for the night:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0688.jpg

these longitudinal braces interlock with the cross braces, should prove to be very strong. unfortunately the gussets i put in last time were a bit premature. i should have just used these as my gussets, but instead ill just weld these braces to the existing gussets.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0689.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0690.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0691.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0693.jpg

[glenyoshida]

Great to see progress on your project. It's looking pretty close. What else are you planning on doing?

[freejake3]

Hey Sean, looks like things are moving along quite well. What's your estimated finish weight? I'm too lazy to check the whole thread. Was it difficult to line up the mounting holes for the recessed mounting points?

[Seanz0rz]

final weight is unknown. the part im working on right now will be about 40 pounds i estimate. whats left to do: finish welding on the main plate, basically the two parts i have not welded on yet. then off to the under engine part. have to figure out if my new mounting idea will work, and if it doesnt, then i guess ill have bolts hanging down..., if it does work. weld that up, and figure out how to mount the rear of the under engine part (budbuilt mounts to the steering rack, i dont want to but i will probably have to.)

as for the recessed mounts: in the square(ish) part, i drilled a hole, bolted it up to the stock spot, bolted the front of my new skidplate to the bumper and held the rear part up with a jack at the correct height, i then experimented with shapes until i got one with the correct angles, tacked it to the square, and pulled it all apart. i duplicated that shape 3 more times, put the other side on, tacked that, removed it and welded it into a U shape, reinstalled it, put the skidplate back up, and tacked it to the skid, removed and welded. each side is slightly different. no big deal though. i do not plan on reinforcing them, id like them to bend if i have a hard impact, because i can fix them easily.

hope those explanations make sense.

[4x4mike]

Welds look nice. What are you doing different? Hand speed, maybe wire speed?

[Tankota]

Turn up your heat more. Heat melts, wire speed penetrates. You have to have heat before you can penetrate. Hand control is secondary to getting it set correctly. Make your welds strong before you make them pretty.

[Scuba]

You said you wanted something lightweight...That things getting beefier everyday :hillbill:

Lookin good though :thumbup:


:bling:

[Seanz0rz]

well, my welder is limited as there are only 6 preset voltage levels :( so i get to adjust by wire speed and hand motion. i am getting good coloring patters and slight distortion on the back side of the welds. not all of them are great, but im not worried about them breaking. im getting better with practice, reading up on what im doing wrong and what im doing right. and maybe one day i can afford a better welder (maybe ill just give up and buy a tig!)

off to go weld the rest of the day, more pictures this evening!

[Seanz0rz]

so today, the stupid thing warped on me. i was being careful and trying to spread out the heat as much as possible, but i guess i didnt try hard enough.

so i know the more proper way to fix would be to cut my welds and start over. however, thats just not an option... id start with a whole new skid plate before i did that. most of the welds are inaccessible to a cut off wheel. any other bright ideas on how to fix it? im nearly done with the welding on this part, just have where the corners meet on the bracing to weld up, and im not so good at vertical welds so i was going to turn it so the welds would be flat. not sure what to do right now though if the plate is warped.

[4x4mike]

Is the warping bad? Do you think if you continued that it would get worse? I say keep on welding it up and if it gets real bad just drive over it or something to knock it back into shape.

[Seanz0rz]

its pretty bad, let me go grab a picture
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0695.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0696.jpg

[4x4mike]

Wow, bad enough you'd be able to tell from a pic posted on a forum. Sounds like you have to start cutting or go steel buying.

A question about your design. Why were you adding the webbing to the inside of the skid plate? Stiffness? Strength? I think it would be hard to poke a hole in 11g.

[Seanz0rz]

the bracing on the back side was for strength and stiffness, just to give it something more than a flat plate.

so im at a loss for what to do at this point, i dont see how i would ever cut those welds. theres just no way to get a grinder in there. if i got a torch, and heated most of it up, laid it flat with pressure on it to keep it flat, do you think that would work?

[glenyoshida]

Instead of grinding out the weld bead from the same side you created it how about cutting through the plate from the bottom? That should relieve a lot of the stress allow you to pound it back square and then reweld it with your weld beads in very short stitches. It may take away from the smooth finish but if your welds are good it will be just as strong. Make sure you grind out a large enough gap to allow for weld penetration when you weld it back together.

You might also want to consider clamping the entire piece to reduce the warping. Clamping won't stop it but it will help. The main thing is to keep you weld beads short and to alternate them. One long continuous bead will cause metal to move. Stitching takes a lot longer and requires a lot of patience too but often it is the only way to minimize warping.

I don't think you'll have much luck with heating the piece. It would be a trick to heat the entire piece to a cherry red and then reshape it to a state better than it already is. If your ready to scrap it though I say go for it. Make sure you take pics. That'll be real interesting to see!

[Seanz0rz]

so you are saying cut from the flat side, on either side of the welds for the braces, and reweld? im not sure what im pounding back square... i know the plate warped but it will sit flat occasionally, it just wants to spring back to its newly found warped state.

yea, i went too fast, i was in a hurry to get it done and managed to make more work for myself! whoops! i know exactly what i did wrong, just trying to fix it now.

im going to try to bolt it in place and see how bad it really is. if its something i can live with for the time being, ill worry about fixing it another day. i cant find my torch anywhere, so thats going to have to wait!

[corax]

how about trying to "heat shrink" the steel on the opposite side of what you were doing? -> when you initially heat metal, it expands, when it cools it actually shrinks to a size slightly smaller that it was originally <- so if you put some thought into it and figure where you need to shrink the metal to pull it flat again . . . . I worked (briefly) at a steel mill where they would sometimes use heat to bend giant I beams or use heat to fix distortion, and I know it is also used in shipyards to straighten panels on the hull


I originally came across the concept in this book (excellent read if you haven't yet, one of my favs)
http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/post-welding.jpg
maybe make a trip to the local Barnes / Borders and grab a coffee for a quick read?

[glenyoshida]

Yep, I'm suggesting to cut all the way through from the flat side. If you cut the stiffening piece out it should relieve the majority of the stress caused by the uneven cooling of the steel.

When I mentioned pounding back square I was guessing that it still will not be perfectly true even after cutting out the welds. When I was starting people often talked to me about the bead and weld penetration. With hindsight I think I would have preferred info on how to anticipate and plan for how the metal moves first. Not that all the tips I got weren't helpful, they certainly were!

I think it's great you are doing this yourself. The knowledge you've already gained will be invaluable in the future. Plus it's cool to weld!

I should post up pics of my first welding project. It'll make you feel good. lol

[4x4mike]

i know the plate warped but it will sit flat occasionally, it just wants to spring back to its newly found warped state.


It sounds like you've changed the structure of the metal. Now it just might be brittle and have less strength than it did before the bracing. I think that forcing it back into shape will make it more plastic and it'll break or crack. Looks like that thing got some heat though.

If it were me I'd jump on it a few times, rest a little, jump so more and then try to bolt it on. Knowing me I'd be able to get it on but it would have taken a whole day, an 18 pack, lunch, 2 torches, 3 bottle jacks and a screwdriver. Problem is, after all of that, I'd never be able to get it off the truck.

[Seanz0rz]

i just tried to put it on the truck, it almost fits, the recessed holes are about 1/2 inch out. i think im going to just pound the crap out of it, maybe hit it with a torch. if i ruin it, ohwell. i have nothing to lose at this point. im stopping work for the day so i dont just toss it into the street and call it quits.

[Seanz0rz]

so heres my game plan. the piece warped when i welded in the driver side longitudinal section. im going to cut that, put the skid on flat surface, weight it down with concrete blocks. then ill heat up the passenger side longitudinal piece, douse it with water, and see if it regains shape then (or at least improves...)

any one have anything to add to that? make sense to you guys?

[corax]

i just tried to put it on the truck, it almost fits, the recessed holes are about 1/2 inch out.

I'd say just bolt it on (use the aforementioned bottle jacks if need be to shift things around) and tell everyone it's a specially engineered "interference fit" skid plate maximized with preloaded internal stresses to minimize and spring back against any undue forces applied unintentionally . . . :thumbup:

[Seanz0rz]

i just tried to put it on the truck, it almost fits, the recessed holes are about 1/2 inch out.

I'd say just bolt it on (use the aforementioned bottle jacks if need be to shift things around)


that was with the bottle jacks... otherwise it was like... several inches out.. i think ill need to enlarge the holes just so i have an easier time. the clearance is pretty tight.

[4x4mike]

i just tried to put it on the truck, it almost fits, the recessed holes are about 1/2 inch out. i think im going to just pound the crap out of it, maybe hit it with a torch. if i ruin it, ohwell. i have nothing to lose at this point. im stopping work for the day so i dont just toss it into the street and call it quits.


See you needed bottle jacks and a torch or 2. Did you remember lunch and the 18 pack?
Do you think if you ovalized the mounting holes you'd have better luck?
I have to dig up a text book to answer one of your other questions.

[4x4mike]

I'd say just bolt it on (use the aforementioned bottle jacks if need be to shift things around) and tell everyone it's a specially engineered "interference fit" skid plate maximized with preloaded internal stresses to minimize and spring back against any undue forces applied unintentionally . . . thumbup

Nice, I'd have to write that one down to get it to come out right.

[4x4mike]

so heres my game plan. the piece warped when i welded in the driver side longitudinal section. im going to cut that, put the skid on flat surface, weight it down with concrete blocks. then ill heat up the passenger side longitudinal piece, douse it with water, and see if it regains shape then (or at least improves...)

I think you may run into problems throwing water on it. For one it's a large piece of metal and you probably don't know how hot you're getting it. Throwing water on it, or quenching it, rapidly cools the piece but if the heating was uneven the rapid change of temperature on the entire piece can result in more warping. If you have weight on the piece the forces will follow the path of least resistance and likely cause more warping. In my material sciences class we heat treated and quenched different metals and tested their strengths (tensile). Heating was done uniformly on the entire piece. The quenching was also done uniformly on the entire piece all at once, unless it was left to air cool.

Info: http://www.fluent.com/solutions/metals/metalquenching.htm
The second paragraph kind of explains what I was trying to say.

One thing to consider is that the piece, portions of the piece, or the webbing maybe annealed (and other pieces not). An annealed piece creates some plasticity in the metal. What you don't know is how much or where. Additional heating and quenching, and again the path of least resistance, is what I think may cause more warping.
When I read your warping post and saw the pictures annealing is what first popped into my head
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)#Thermodynamics_of_annealing

Youtube isn't working for me right now but there is a video on there of a hot piece of metal (thin flat circle sheet) that a guy throws a bucket of water on. It steams and there is a lot of steam and the metal warps like a potato chip. It was kind of old so it might not even be there any more.

[Seanz0rz]

so i tried the methods suggested above, as soon as i cut the skid around the area of the warp, it flattened out. i hammered it completely flat, clamped it down, and set to welding VERY slowly. i unclamped it and to my surprise, i had added an extra half inch to my warp!!! yay!

so here it is, ready to be cut up for scrap:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0707.jpg

you can see just how bad the warp is. i was hoping by welding the front side, i could reverse some of the warp, no go on that... lesson learned, the hard and expensive way!

so on to version two. this is where i get to correct all the mistakes i made on the previous one, improve on the overall design, and maybe try some new things.

first to be changed: the front mount. i never really liked having the semicircular access holes in the front for the 4 bolts. this time i chose to weld them to the front angle, and you will never see them. now i had an interesting problem, the bolts i have access to are zinc plated, typically a no no for welding on. i did quite a bit of reading, asking around, etc. the toxic fumes were not a worry, as i weld outside, i just made sure not to inhale while i welded and to remove myself as quickly as possible when i had finished. the other problem was weld strength. the zinc will contaminate the weld. however, these welds are not structural, the bolts are really only ever in sheer, and the welds are mearly to keep them from twisting when i tighten the nuts on the other side. i welded the hell out of them, so im not worried
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0700.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0698.jpg

here is the new plate, all cut and scored and ready for bending and assembly:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0701.jpg

here it is finished for the night:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0703.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0704.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0705.jpg

i really appreciate the person who put my metal outside after i brought it in to avoid the rain.... thanks dad! all of it is surface rust, and should be no problem cleaning off with a strip disc or naval jelly.

today i also got the 3 (yes, its 3 now) longitudinal pieces mostly cut. next ill get the 2 cross bars cut, the rear mounts done, and the mounting system for the under engine plate. and then get the under engine plate done (thats a whole different beast...)

its going extremely well! so much easier when i dont have to measure 50 times and then end up cutting more off later...

edit: i want your opinion. whats is the verdict on the cutouts that mirror the ones on the bumper?:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/skid011.jpg

should i do them again on the new skidplate like i did on the old, or should i skip it (mind you the lines would be straight and what not...

[4x4mike]

Bummer it didn't work out on your first try. Ken and I went to the metal place on Friday and learned a sheet (4X8) of 12 gague was $213 or so. They didn't have 11 gague but I imagine it would be more. I think the 3/8 like Budbuilt was over 3 bills.

I like the cut outs, I think they go well with the bumper. I think I'm going to leave mine so I don't get junk flying through there. Stuff like mud and snow. How knows, maybe I'll make some small holes near the bottom of the radiator one day.

Good luck on your next attempt.

[Seanz0rz]

when i bought my sheet of 11ga, it was 158 or so. (gotta talk to em and get them to give you a deal... haha)

if i do the cutouts, they will have wire mesh with fog lights behind that.

[20005spd]

I think the 3/8 like Budbuilt was over 3 bills.


bud built is 3/16th

[glenyoshida]

Uggh I feel your pain. I've had a few pieces that I had to scrap because of warping. On one project I made the tolerances so tight that I had to make the same piece 4 times before getting it.
If you don't mind me volunteering the suggestions, I'd like to help you figure out what went awry on the skid before you weld on the new one. Especially if you have to do the same welds. I've had to put projects on the shelf for weeks from getting so irritated. Are you going to have to weld steel on the plate in a T joint again?

[Seanz0rz]

yes, welding a T joint, although i guess its not a real T. i will be welding on each side, single pass. basically i will put a magnet to hold it in place, do 4 tacks, 2 on each side. start welding in 1 inch passes starting from top to bottom, alternating sides and letting it cool in between. i dont know if ill do a full weld, i might just do 1 inch weld, 1` inch blank.

i know my problem, i went way to fast. i was in a huge hurry to get it done, and it ended up costing me several days worth of work...

any advise is greatly appreciated! i wont be working on this until wednesday at the earliest, more likely the weekend (depends on weather, downside of outdoor workshops)

[4x4mike]

I think the 3/8 like Budbuilt was over 3 bills.


bud built is 3/16th


That's what I meant, I've never been good with fractions.

[freejake3]

Hey Sean

My 2cents on warpage (seeing as how I had to learn the hard way). Take some flat-bar or any other scrape metal that covers your skid along its greatest length and tack weld them on. ALong with this preventative measure you can additonally tack the entire piece to your welding table and then start your welds. Both of these should keep it from warping out of control. Of course your change to a slower welding pace will probably help the most. A wet towel to cool the welds down will keep you moving along as well. Good luck.

See you at Superstition

[glenyoshida]

When you mentioned that it was worse the 2nd time after you were going very slowly it could indicate that you're getting the weld puddle bigger than necessary. You need the weld penetration but if you were to cut a cross section away you want the weld to form a connection as in this pic
http://www.weldingengineer.com/Fillet%20Weld%20Size%2002.GIF
Notice how the bead makes a connection between the two pieces roughly the same thickness as the sheet. Try and ride this fine line so you get just enough weld penetration.


If you are getting burn through on the back side of the weld as this guy did in a single spot in this photo then you are putting too much heat into the weld and that makes for lots more movement in the metal.
http://www.romanmfg.com/weldhelp/issues/explsn2.gif



Before you get too far on your redeux take some of that scrap that you have and reweld some T Joints for practice. This will give you as much practice as you need so you can avoid warping another skid plate.

You mentioned doing 2 tacks on each side then stitching your weld beads in 1" lengths. You can benefit from many more tacks. Try ten tacks on each side of the brace so twenty total. Your tacks should have the same penetration as a regular bead. Often people make their tacks with just enough metal to hold things in place. That's fine for most projects but your tacks are actually holding things in shape so they are important.

I think you are on the right track with stitching. Since your welds shouldn't be life threatening if they fail, I'd suggest that you do just that. Instead of the 1" bead then a blank. Try 1/2" bead and leave a 2" blank. That will give you roughly 6" of total weld bead on both sides of the joint. It may not seem like a lot but even mild steel has a tensile strength of around 70,000 psi and you'll have at least two square inches of steel in your welds. In a theoretical world where things are perfect if it took a tenth of a second for a rock to rip off the skid you could be going around 20 MPH before the welds failed. Never works that way in real life though but I digress lol.

As a final thing to keep the warping under control, as you finish a bead, take a ball peen hammer or better yet an air hammer and pound into the weld. The impact will create tiny movements in the weld and help compensate for the shrinkage. Many smaller impacts are better than just a few big hits. You do have to whack it pretty good though. If you aren't deforming the metal in the bead just a little bit then you aren't relieving the stress. Check to see how true your plate is as you go along.

And above all good luck! I really do feel your pain. I cringe remembering my own projects thus far.

Oh and FWIW I like the cutouts that match the bumper.

[4x4mike]

FWIW I stitch welded in 1/2- 3/4" sections to prevent warping. As you look at the skid plate I would weld a section on the left, then the right, then somewhere more left then somewhere more right alternating around. Each weld was quick and deliberate. This was my first real project so I took it slow. Grab a couple of dr peppers and go welding. Weld, drink, weld, drink.

[Seanz0rz]

thanks for the tips guys! hopefully this all helps someone else researching welding and whatnot!

and mike, its diet dr. pepper for me!

[Seanz0rz]

yeah, its been a LONG time since ive updated this, because its been a LONG time since i touched the skidplate. lots of reasons, none worth mentioning...

so i got back on it today. one thing i was never pleased with on the original was the mounting points for the rear. this time i set out to change that. i cut a piece of angle iron, measured 3 or 4 times, drilled the holes, PERFECT! so i bolted it up to the cross member:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0714.jpg

i put the skid up and im STILL hitting the mangled front cross member on the right side (less mangled side), so i just notched the cross member, its getting removed soon anyway.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0715.jpg

putting the skid up, i noticed that the driverside brace is not where it should be, but about 1/4 inch out. cut the tacks and retack it where it SHOULD be.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0718.jpg

once that was out of the way, i could get the skid up in place to measure where to notch for the angle iron. cut out the notch and it was still not right, took me a half dozen tries to get it right.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0716-1.jpg

this is what i tacked:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0722.jpg

my welder plug is actually in my back yard (next to the service entrance) and running wire to the driveway or garage is just a bit too $$$. so to weld on the driveway, i have to pull out our 10kW generator.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0720.jpg

all that set up for two TINY tacks just to take all of it and go weld in the backyard off house power.

also grabbed a picture of the truck. GAWD shes sexy! been looking at alot of different cars so i can take her off daily driver duty, but alot of me doesnt want to!
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/IMG_0717.jpg

more updates tonight hopefully. yeah i know about the surface rust. unfortunately it sat outside for the last 3 months. it will get either stripped with a wheel before i weld, or coated and cleaned with naval jelly all before i paint. everything is staying tacked for now.

[DHC6twinotter]

:drool:

[Seanz0rz]

ok so more updates. after getting it tacked on the truck, i pulled it off, took it to the back yard, and started tacking on the braces/gussets. if i was to do it again i would turn the angle around so more of it was in contact with the 3 longitudinal braces. after tacking it well (better than the pictures indicate, i refitted it to the vehicle, everything lined up!!! so i went off to weld. the rear mount is now nearly completely done welding, just a couple of welds to do, require me to turn the piece so i can weld it properly (not great at vertical welds...) and im SLOWLY welding up the braces. im about half done. add in a few more gussets, clean up some corners, and add a bracket for the rear plate, and im DONE! its getting close. so now for the pictures.

this gusset is cut around half of the brace, should be super strong once welded:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0723.jpg

rest is scrap i had lying around, still looks good i think:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0724.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0725.jpg

welded:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0727.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0728.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0729.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0731.jpg

oh im aware that the rear mount isnt technically centered on the skidplate. thats ok, i actually drilled the holes slightly off center, so everything appears to be square.

[4x4mike]

My oil change is coming up and I have to drop my new skid. I was thinking about yours and wondering what the progress was. Good to see it still in the works. Looking good :thumbup:
Any idea what it weighs?

[Seanz0rz]

I'll toss it on the scale when I get it all finished. Wonderful thing is I won't have to drop this part to change my oil!

[Seanz0rz]

so it warped again. even going soooo slow (4-6 3/4" welds at a time, all spread out, sit for 10 minutes, then return). its not nearly as bad as it was on the first version, but its still there.

meanwhile (while waiting for the front skid to cool between welds) i got the bottom skid mounting plate welded on, next it has to go on the truck for a mockup so i can get the angle correct for the lower lip of the front skid, once i get that i can make the mounting bracket that will be welded to the front plate. im a little weary of welding on it, but it needs to be done.

pictures to come later tonight, just working my hardest to get this done (at least mocked up) today.

[4x4mike]

I had no warping on mine and it's thinner than yours. Maybe it's just the design.

I was going to drill a hole to drain the oil but I always spill taking the filter out. As a result I always pull the skid plate. I like it though because it gives me a chance to check out everything else under the vehicle. An oil change for me is 10-15 minutes. I tend to poke around so it's more like an hour and a half.

[Seanz0rz]

i thought we were using the same stuff, i got 11 gauge sheet.

anyhow, here's the warp earlier today, ever so slight:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0733.jpg

magically, its gone. apparently i put just enough heat on the right spot of the skidplate, now its perfectly true and doesnt want to wobble at all. metal gods like me today...

so with that problem fixed by finishing up all the welding, i started on the mount that connects this skidplate to the one that will be under the engine and front diff. this is the one that will likely take the most abuse, but there is just not alot to work with down there. im going more for ease of replacement/fixing with a BFH when needed.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0735.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0736.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0737.jpg

so with the mount tacked i test fitted everything, fits perfect! time to weld everything up and drill the mounting holes. so there are 16 holes total, 8 access holes that needed to be drilled through the actual plates, and 8 holes to mount the two plates together. i didnt get the last 4 holes drilled, ran out of light. when i get those drilled, i will weld nuts on the backside.

front skid:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0739.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0740.jpg

under engine skid:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0741.jpg
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0742.jpg

so thats what i got done this weekend. i was trying to get it all done so i could paint it this week while im stuck at school, but ohwell. this will actually give me a chance to decide what to do about the outer edges of where the engine skid meets the front skid. ill come up with something this week.

things left to do in no particular order:
paint!
oil the places i cant paint.
figure out what to do with the outer longitudinal pieces and their relation to the under engine skid.
figure out how to mount the rear part of the engine skid.
score engine skid and bend after front swaybar.

overall, id say successful weekend! :thumbup:

[glenyoshida]

Great work Sean. Glad your persistence is paying off! Looks like a cool skid too.

[Seanz0rz]

paint is done, she looks beautiful!!!

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0758.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0760.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0761.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0762.jpg

welding the front studs was a great idea, sooo much cleaner. im using nylock nuts on the front, makes it a little harder to put on but i like it better than the split washers.

now i get to work on the under engine part. shouldnt be nearly as difficult.

[DHC6twinotter]

Sweet! Nice job Sean! http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/images/smilies/smiley_drive.gif

[4x4mike]

Cool, glad it worked out for you.

[Tankota]

Nice... Now go bash that thing on some rocks to make sure it works!

[Seanz0rz]

here are a couple pics of the under engine skid. its most definetly not done yet, but at least its there!

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0799.jpg

after the steering rack it will be bent up to protect the rack, sway bar, and eventually there will be another skid to protect the transmission and tcase.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/Skidplate/IMG_0798.jpg

[4x4mike]

Cool, it's kind of like mine. Only mine is one piece.

[20005spd]

still need a belly skid and a gas tank skid...

[4x4mike]

My belly skid goes about 5-6 inches onto the gas tank skid.