Handgun Advice?

[RobG]

Never owned a handgun before, over the last couple months I decided that I need/want one. Not sure exactly which one yet (thinking 1911) but after reading some posts here and on the gun boards I decided to join the local range and try out a bunch of rentals to see what I like.

I used to shoot competitive rifle (indoor and high power) back in high school so I understand basic safety and know how to shoot a rifle. I've only shot a pistols once before and remember not being able to hit much with it.

So my question is what is the best way to learn to shoot a pistol? If I go in and just start shooting a rental could I teach myself bad habits that will take a long time to break? Should I spring for a lesson or 2 before I start? I'd like to buy something soon, before the next desert trip, so I want to move ahead as quickly as possible. Thought I'd get a better response here than on the gun boards, after reading the post here I really respect your opinions.

Thanks.

[4x4mike]

Are you looking for something to have fun with on the weekends or concealed carry? I wouldn't get a 1911 as a first handgun. They maybe nice and all but I'm pretty sure the consensus is that you've got to spend some big bucks or it's junk. There maybe some exceptions like Springfield's 1911 A1 and Taurus. I personally don't like them and don't plan on owning one but their nice to look at.

So you're looking at a .45? Keep in mind the cost of ammo. Even at cheap places, in bulk and on sale you're looking at over $25/100 rounds. If this is fine with you fine. For poking holes in some paper at the desert I think it's a waste for an all around gun. People get into reloading and save some money but I think you'd have to shoot a lot to re coupe the cost of buying the equipment, again I'm pretty sure you have to drop some dough to be taken seriously, and learning. I've never done it and most people will say it's easy but in my experience thats coming from people who grew up doing it, had some who knew what they were doing teaching them, and were using nice equipment. I was going to get into it when I was going to the range once a week but found out that the guys on the gun forums were only willing to help if you were using what they were using otherwise it was kind of a crap shoot.

Having said that I have a .45 and most of the time buy white box Winchester from WalMart. The gun is a Glock 21 and I've had a real fun time with it. It's simple, accurate and fit's my hand. The G21 is a full framed/sized gun and doesn't fit people well. I don't have huge hands but the thing feels right at home one and two handed. I have zero need to carry it so the size is fine. Some people are afraid of the zombies and feel the need to carry full sized .45's with them but I couldn't tell you if this one would really fit that bill.

I also have a Springfield XD, 9mm. I like this gun because my wife likes to shoot it and it's a little cheaper to shoot. It's also a simple gun, as in there's not much going on and it's not picky with ammo. It fits nice and is also accurate.

Both of my guns didn't break the bank and I can go out and have a good time with them. That's all I really wanted out of them. Some are into having the high dollar stuff but all the guys I know that have them have problems with jamming and they're picky with ammo. All those guys also have trigger jobs and a lot of after market stuff where I'm perfectly fine with mine.

Another chambering to look at is the .40. It's got some punch and is a little cheaper than the .45. Some would say for personal protection and and home defense don't go with anything else than a .45. I think the .40 is a good compromise but shooting a handgun in the house is pretty risky especially if there are other people in the house. Shot guns are a little better for that because they have less of a tendency to go through walls and just the sound of chambering a shell has to be worth it if you ever need to.

Sig's and Rugers are something I'd also look into. They seem to have positive reviews and won't cost as much as a Kimber TLE or HK.

[RobG]

Thanks Mike, I've been going back and forth on what I like, the XD feels really good to me, I love the sigs (Damn you xonethruthcrewx :)), I've always wanted a 1911 but after reading and thinking it would stupid to pick a first gun without trying it or something similar so I have totally put that off until after I try some at the range.

Looks like I forgot to explain my reason for getting a gun. We go to some pretty isolated areas and I am starting to feel uneasy especially when we take the kids. I'd like to have some protection from the possible threats out there. Longer term I was hoping to get get back into competitive shooting, one rational for the 45 but I really want a pistol more for remote area safety. No Orange County CCW for me (or any one else right now) so I am subject to those constraints.

So I am really looking for shooting instructions and advice more than gun advice right now, that will come later.

Thanks.

[Good Times]

I would recommend that you hit the range a few times and test out various guns in different calibers to find the best one that fits your hands. Just because one gun works for me may not be the same for you. Also if you have significant others, it might be a great time to introduce them to it too so they too can be educated on using the firearm properly. One other thing to note, go back a few times testing the same gun you liked because your likes/dislikes may change from each trip to the range.

Insight Range Inc in Artesia is highly recommended by a lot of OC folks on CGN (calguns.net).
http://www.insightrangeinc.com/

Check them out and find out how much their lessons are. Another place is in Brea but I forget what they're called.

O btw, if you're planning to buy, check out gunbroker.com (it's fuster's favorite place on the internet! hehe). If I had to buy anything I'd hit them up first to see if their prices are cheaper than the local shops. Remember that if you buy online and the store is out of state or out of town, expect to pay FFL fees etc to bring the firearm to a local shop. Also exepct to pay DROS fees (but that's expected even if you buy locally). 10 day hold on all purchases :(

I may be visiting Insight next week (time permitting) so if you want to meet up let me know. I'll be renting a few too just for kicks :)

[RobG]

Thanks Lance, that place looks good and it's not too far away from work. Definitely up for meeting you if I can, I'll even buy you a beer or two if you have the time.

I am going to the local range tomorrow, they are on my normal route home for work so I was thinking I could get a practice session at least every week or two. Their memberships are very reasonable and they include free gun rental so if I like it I am going to join. http://www.firingline.net/huntingtonbeach/. Not as nice as the place you linked but very convenient for me.

[Good Times]

As soon as I firm up the date I'll let ya know. Most likely be Thursday.

I've gone to the Burbank Firing Line and had a blast so I'm sure the HB one should be no different. :)

[4x4mike]

Looks like I forgot to explain my reason for getting a gun. We go to some pretty isolated areas and I am starting to feel uneasy especially when we take the kids. I'd like to have some protection from the possible threats out there. Longer term I was hoping to get get back into competitive shooting, one rational for the 45 but I really want a pistol more for remote area safety. No Orange County CCW for me (or any one else right now) so I am subject to those constraints.




You want to be careful in CA and I guess any state for that matter. I'm no lawyer and there are so many different stories and senerios out there but it gets pretty dicy when it comes to protection with a gun outside of your house. This is one reason I wouldn't carry concealed. For one I could never get a CCW (Sacramento Co.) and 2 I couldn't afford to shoot someone. Even if it's in self defense it'll tie you up in legal matters for a long time. I know most will say that's fine, at least they're alive and their family is fine but it's a different world out there. I have a friend that with his wife carry extra insurance (I don't know what kind of policy it is) that covers them in case they are involved with a self defense situation.You also run into certain parameters when traveling with the gun in different counties.

My buddy always said that a dead man can't testify. He's the one with the insurance.

[RobG]

Lance that would be cool. Their rates are reasonable, even for instruction. And the rental is cool "When you rent a firearm at Insight Shooting Range, you need only pay a flat fee and you can have access to every weapon we offer. Just return your current pistol or rifle and ask to use another"

Mike, thanks for the warning. I'm definitely not looking to shoot anyone, It's mostly just for that feeling of security. Last trip we were on we saw large cat paw prints during the day and were sure we going get a visit at night. Many miles from anyone and cell phone service.

[drguitarum2005]

Looks like I forgot to explain my reason for getting a gun. We go to some pretty isolated areas and I am starting to feel uneasy especially when we take the kids. I'd like to have some protection from the possible threats out there. Longer term I was hoping to get get back into competitive shooting, one rational for the 45 but I really want a pistol more for remote area safety. No Orange County CCW for me (or any one else right now) so I am subject to those constraints.




You want to be careful in CA and I guess any state for that matter. I'm no lawyer and there are so many different stories and senerios out there but it gets pretty dicy when it comes to protection with a gun outside of your house. This is one reason I wouldn't carry concealed. For one I could never get a CCW (Sacramento Co.) and 2 I couldn't afford to shoot someone. Even if it's in self defense it'll tie you up in legal matters for a long time. I know most will say that's fine, at least they're alive and their family is fine but it's a different world out there. I have a friend that with his wife carry extra insurance (I don't know what kind of policy it is) that covers them in case they are involved with a self defense situation.You also run into certain parameters when traveling with the gun in different counties.

My buddy always said that a dead man can't testify. He's the one with the insurance.


isn't it sad that the world has come to that? you can't even DEFEND YOURSELF without getting sued. i'm not going to get all worked up about it again but it makes me wish i lived back in the day when everyone had a gun and people were less crazy and there was no such thing as a lawyer. there was only a judge, a rope, and a tree

[Good Times]

Rob,

Went to Insight earlier today to get a few rounds in. I checked out what was on the rental shelves and they had a good mixes of glock, springfield xd's, beretta, sig (220/226), hk p2000 to name a few. I only checked the 9mm since that's the only thing I was shooting today.

When you went to the HB Firing Line, did you by any chance see any other sig 9mm rentals besides the 220/226? I'm trying to find a 229 9mm to shoot as well as a 2022 9mm. I can try to visit Colin but damn he lives a bit too far for me ;)

check your pm!

[dropzone]

Definitely take some classes. Sounds like you are planning on that any way.
Always clear the weapon, assume it is loaded. the basics. I am always amazed at how many 'experienced' gun owners have accidental discharges with guns that they swear were 'unloaded.

Putting rounds down range is the best way to become proficient and comfortable with a chosen weapon. In addition to getting a .40, .45 or whatever I would recommend a .22 pistol (if $$$ allow) such as a Ruger Mark 2 for proficiency too. Cheap to shoot and fun to kill a few cans while plinking...

[fustercluck]

There is some good advice here. I think it is always wise to be instructed by a qualified professional. I have been shooting for decades and still learn from others. You stated that you felt ill at ease in the remoteness of the desert. I don't blame you. Some fairly gruesome things can occur when nobody's watching. However, there are more foes than human out in the sticks. Some of them may be as large and powerful as a bear. That is why when I trek to the edges of the earth I carry at least a .44 magnum.....at least that.

However, for one who is beginning his affair with handguns, I'd suggest a more modestly charged cartridge like the 9mm or .40 S&W. Unlike rifles, the sight radius on a hand gun is shorter and hence the slightest foul habit can make the use of one impotent. Starting and experience with large frame and/or large caliber handguns usually results in adopting one or more bad form habits that are very hard to break.

I'd start shooting with a 9mm or .40 and some of these...

http://shootingsafely.com/correction.jpg

If problems persist, have a friend load your mag or cylinder with some of these dummy rounds randomely placed

http://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages/missingimgs3/safttrainer_group_shot_m.jpg

You will quickly see what you are doing wrong. A trained instructor can also spot problematic technique and nip it in the bud (as it were).

Of course I've given conflicting advice; large caliber magnum vs. moderate caliber and moderate charge. This is because you have a techincally conflicting directive. Beginning handgun experience while needing an arm for the more experience shootist. That is why I have many guns. :hillbill:

[reggie 00]

X2 on a qualified professional.

If your looking for a backwoods 4 legged protection i am with Fuster, a 44mag. At least a .357. a revolver is pretty easy to use and is easier to recover from a miss fire, just squeeze again or in my case pull back the hammer again.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/reggiemiller00/IMG_0001.jpg

In california be careful with Gun Broker, a lot of them wont sell to California because of the new rule that went in to effect earlier this year requiring the FFL transfer forms to be sent out first. Also some FFL's charge a grip on transfers like that since you aren't buying from them. Instead of the $35 Dros, you'll see places asking for $150. Its not at all places but make sure you ask what they charge before do the whole thing.

If you have the time go check out calguns.net i have found a lot of interesting information there. There are some lawyer types there that help out in those special situations, and help eliminate some FUD that gets passed around on some stuff.

X100 on the target Fuster showed, there is even a silhouette version most ranges have, helps a lot.

And the snap caps to help with flinching are worth it.

my other friends:

newest out the house carry/home protection
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/reggiemiller00/IMG_0002.jpg

my 9 with crimson trace grips i picked up for a steal on calguns
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/reggiemiller00/IMG_0003.jpg
so much easier to reacquire with that laser.

and my favorite 4" Colt Commander
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n74/reggiemiller00/IMG_0004.jpg

Not sure where you do most of your outings, but they did just pass the concealed carry bill for National parks, and if you do go out of state check the calguns board for a Utah CCW class, should run you close to $150 for the class and will inform you on some good things, and allow you to CCW in 30 something states.

[reggie 00]

man those pic make them look a lot dirtier than they are, i got's to go clean.

[fustercluck]

I frequently carry this one in .40 S&W...

http://lib.irismedia.org/sait/guns/handguns/sig_Sp2340.jpg

[reggie 00]

Nice.

What do you think of that new convertible pistol they have out now?

[fustercluck]

I'm all for versatility via conversions. My Sig pro will shoot .357 sig and .40 S&W with a simple barrel change. I've not actually done it though. I wish it would go to .45 acp......

Which Sig model are you referring to specifically?

[RobG]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I wound up joining the local range Saturday and shooting for a few hours. Tried a XD9, I like the feel of this gun and it is very simple to operate. Defintely want something a little more than 9mm though. Then I tried a Springfield 1911, not bad but a little on the rough side. Third gun was a Kimber Custom and ding, ding, ding we have a winner. Love this gun, the trigger is great, the sights were much better than the other 2, it felt really good. I wouldn't hesitate to buy this gun.

Overall I was able to hold 10 shots in a 6" spread or so at 21 ft. Not great but better than I expected, the Kimber was the best for me. I will go with some instruction at some point but I am OK for now, I read up on some stances and general technique before I went, I'm very familiar with general shooting technique and gun safety.

I really want to try something in 40S+W, the range I went to only had a Glock and it was being used. I also want to try something in a sig 40 and 45 (2022, 239, 220). Hopefully I'll get all of that done this week and be able to make a choice.

So I'd really like something for the campsite that I can carry concealed to keep it close but away from the kids. Don't need to stop bears but should have decent stopping power. As a second use I'd like something I can shoot at the range but those two don't seem to blend very well. Right now my first choice is the Kimber, but it is kind of big and heavy to carry. On the plus side I'm sure I could hit something from a longer way out if need be. I am also really considering the Subcompact XD40 but I don't think it would make a great range gun. Probably will consider something Sig as well after I try a few.

I'm looking at picking just one pistol right now, my wife makes Obama look like Charlton Heston. That is assuming there are any decent models left in CA to buy, they seem to be flying off the shelves for some reason (cough Obama cough). I'd prefer to buy this locally if possible. Any suggestions/comments are appreciated.

[Robinhood4x4]

Something to keep in mind for a self defense gun is that a lot of people absolutely hate the idea of having a safety on a self defense weapon. You have to really practice with your gun to become proficient at drawing from a holster and releasing the safety. Clicking off the safety is one more thing you're going to forget to do in a situation where fractions of a second count. Go to an IDPA match and watch the newbies make that mistake.

A great many people also strongly feel that you need to have a round in the chamber at all times. With glocks and XDs it's safe to do so and not have a manual safety. With a single action 1911 you need to be loaded, cocked and locked. You do NOT want to load one in the chamber and manually let down the hammer. That's an accident waiting to happen. The only other alternative is to leave the chamber empty and have to rack the slide which will cost you second which can be valuable.

So basically, I'm trying to talk you out of a 1911 for your first self defense gun.

[fustercluck]

Here is a ballistic gelatin comparison for the various common calibers...


http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

The large cavitation at the left is point of impact tissue damage and the blue line indicates depth of penetration. Also helpful are the statistics delineating projectile velocity and mass in Grains. Speed of sound in feet per second is 1125ft/s. At these loads, only two were supersonic; with the 230 gr .45acp being the slowest. This is why the .45acp is best suited for suppressed fire. Note the size of cavitation for each round and imagine that ballistic gelatin closely simulates the density and viscosity of human and animal muscle tissue while being transparent enough to study the results.

[RobG]

Steve,

Thanks for the input. I don't plan on carrying one in the chamber but on having to cycle the slide (no matter what I get). I don't like the fact that the 1911 has a selectable safety but from my range experience the other day it would not figure into the way I wanted to use it, it would always be off, see no reason to engage it. I was wondering about that though, I read a few manuals and there was no recommended decocking procedure I found. I concede if I got the Kimber it wouldn't be a rational decision. That said it is still pretty high on the list.

How do you like the XD40 Sub? The guy at Turners said it wouldn't be a fun gun to shoot with the size, weight and snap of the 40. He was trying to talk me into the 5" XD40. Can you shoot it fairly accurately with the short barrel and sight radius? Is the kick manageable being so light? I'm also confused on carrying an XD with a round in the chamber, it's OK to leave the striker in the cocked position for long periods of time? I really like the feel, features, and price of the whole XD line I just don't want something too close to a 1911 because I will have one someday. In my mind something like the XD40 Sub, a 1911, and Ruger or Histandard 22 would round things out nicely someday.

Off to look at Sig's tonight and hopefully fire one. I like the decocker feature and the feel of the gun. The double stacks are just a little too wide to feel really comfortable, 239 feels great.

Fuster,

Thanks for that information I had been trying to read up on ballistics but didn't find anything with such a direct comparison. Hoping I'll be able to fire a 40 at the range tonight.

[fustercluck]

No problem.

I should say that while the 9mm appears to be comparatively effete, I know a man who accidentally shot himself with a 9mm. Though the trauma site was a through and through at the gastrocnemius, it nearly tore his calf off of his leg. 7 reconstructive surgeries later and he still walks with a limp. A tough lesson that even the seemingly weaker ballistic is devastating.

[Good Times]

Rob,

If you come across a range w/ a sp2022 9mm let me know! I'd like to shoot that one in comparison to a p226/229.

Have you also considered a revolver? It's not as fun to shoot in comparison to a xd/sig/glock/etc but it is darn easy to use and maintain with the least amount of moving parts.

[RobG]

Rob,

If you come across a range w/ a sp2022 9mm let me know! I'd like to shoot that one in comparison to a p226/229.

Have you also considered a revolver? It's not as fun to shoot in comparison to a xd/sig/glock/etc but it is darn easy to use and maintain with the least amount of moving parts.


Lance, I'd like to try a 2022 as well but I haven't found one yet. I'm hoping the try a 226 tonight. I've haven't found an sp2022 in stock at a local dealer, have you?

Not looking for a revolver. Having to keep it unloaded much of the time has moved me towards a semi. Plus there's the fun factor. Hopefully some day.

It wouldn't be so pressing an issue but the more I read about the incoming administration's views the more I more want/need to get this done now. Wish I had decided to do this over the summer, my timing is pretty bad.

[fustercluck]

Let's not forget the venerable 10mm auto...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/callgood/10mm-1.jpg

It is the one at the bottom. Notice the cavitation at impact and overall peneration compared to even the hallowed .45acp. It is terrific round. I think one could avail himself of a nice polymer framed glock model 20 in 10mm auto for a modest 450.00. The mag holds 15 rnds. of course living in Ca. limits you to 10. No need to cover Glock's sterling reputation. Oly carries one and seems to really like it. If I ever finish buying all of the rare and expensive guns I want, I'll pick a glock 20 for myself...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/sdmf69/G23_1.jpg

[Good Times]

Rob I haven't found a local shop with 2022 but I'm searching. I found that CDNN has em for 469 but they don't ship to CA :( bastards!

I'm emailing a guy in Bakersfield that has one but w/ the 15 rounders so I'm hoping he has some 10 round mags in exchange. A few others om gunbroker but none with the 10 round mags. I'm contacting each seller to see if they can swap em too.

bah!

[Robinhood4x4]

I like my XDSC pretty well and it does the job. The kick doesn't bother me at all and even my wife, who weighs in at a mere 105 lbs, shoots it just fine. Leaving one in the chamber and the striker cocked is just fine for it.

As with everything there is a downside. The downside of using a decocker is that your first shot is then double action which can be fairly hard to shoot accurately. At least that's what they say but I can shoot my wife's P2000 first shot double action just fine.

[RobG]

Fuster, that 10mm is insane. Looks like a nuclear mushroom cloud in there. I think that's a little too much for me, girly wrists and all.

Steve, Thanks for the feedback on the XDSC, it's still a possibility. Curious what type of grouping you can make, the pictures from your original thread on the gun don't seem to be working for me.

Lance, I have a line on a local guy that I met at the range today that does catalog orders at discount prices. If you are interested I'll send you his info, he works out of HB and Burbank.

So I shot a 9mm Sig 226 tonight, Very nice gun but it just doesn't fit me right. Fairly tight groupings (for me) but all lower right. pick up the XD9 and they are way more centered. range guy tries the gun and says its me. They pretty much told me I sucked too. XD feels better to me than the sig, hand fit wise, not crazy about the DA/SA trigger either. I assume the 2022 is going to be similar in grip size and fit to the 226 so I'm not sure it will work for me. I am going to hit up 2 local stores tomorrow I'll see what they have to try for fit.

Shot a glock 23 in 40S&W, now I know what they mean by snappy. 40 seems like it will work for me, not sure if I like the 45 better or not.

So as of now I have it down to something in an XD40 or maybe XD45 or the lower end Kimber, I think any of those would make a great choice with the XD getting the nod for practicality. Got to hurry January 20th is approaching quickly.

[Good Times]

Rob, I'm game!

[bamachem]

The 2022's are nice, but a bit on the large side as far as frames go (I've owned a 2009 & 2340 in 9mm as well as a 2022 in 40S&W). The 229 is also a very fine weapon, and I found that the 229 SAS that I owned (in 40 S&W) was just too pretty to carry in fear of marring the finish. I have handled a couple P250's and they seem to be very well made. I like the fact that you can change out the firing system as well as make caliber changes very simply. However, I had to leave the SIG family this last time around. I broke down and sold the 229 SAS a couple weeks ago and bought a P2000 SK from CDNN and LOVE IT for carry purposes.

It's a 357 SIG with an extra 40S&W barrel. It's the same size as my Bersa 380 (single stack 380 like a walther PPK), but it packs 10-rounds of terror compared to the 8 in the Bersa baby-9. With a USP Compact Magazine and X-Grip extension, the capacity becomes 13 - enough to hold off a small army if you have a couple spares on-hand.

At any rate, I love SIGS, but that HK has become my favorite all-around handgun bar-none.

The downside for you guys is that I don't think you can get the SK version in Kalifornistan due to it's subcompact size. That's a damn shame...

[Good Times]

Andy, surprisingly we can get the sk version just only the v2 or v3 variant. :)

[bamachem]

ahhhh, OK. I got the V3. It's an amazing little firearm.

I got it from CDNN with two 9-round mags, the extra 40S&W barrel, an extra 12-round mag w/ X-grip, free laser and free shipping for $749. I already added some Meprolight Night Sights for another $77, but that's it. I'll see if I can get some pics tomorrow.

Until then... here's a good one from HKPRO

http://lundestudio.com/photos/p2000sk-wade.jpg

[RobG]

Wow, that is nice looking. I'll see if I can find one to fondle tomorrow.

Funny what you said about the 229SAS that is very similar to what I was thinking about the 239 SAS I was looking out. Turners had them on special for like $679 but they sold out before I got there. Looks like it belongs in a glass case marked - Break in case of emergency.

[bamachem]

that's *exactly* how i felt. i sold it before i managed to scratch it. :D it was like having an S-class Mercedes and parking it at Home Depot. it just didn't fit what i needed.

now for the HK, it's the Mercedes G-Wagon of the polymer framed utility weapons. fit and finish is exceptional and it's backed by HK's unfallable reliability.

[fustercluck]

Hehe. HK fever strikes again....

[bamachem]

pic w/ the blackberry:

http://sportsmenfortots.org/images/IMG00030m.jpg

[reggie 00]

I'm all for versatility via conversions. My Sig pro will shoot .357 sig and .40 S&W with a simple barrel change. I've not actually done it though. I wish it would go to .45 acp......

Which Sig model are you referring to specifically?


The P250.



How do you like the XD40 Sub? The guy at Turners said it wouldn't be a fun gun to shoot with the size, weight and snap of the 40. He was trying to talk me into the 5" XD40. Can you shoot it fairly accurately with the short barrel and sight radius? Is the kick manageable being so light?

A 4" isn't that bad. I shoot mine accurately enough. Even that cannon i use to hunt is easy enough to manage.

[reggie 00]

Very Nice.
That needs to be added to my list.




pic w/ the blackberry:

http://sportsmenfortots.org/images/IMG00030m.jpg

[fustercluck]

Ah, P250. I've not fired one, but have online friends who swear by them.

[Good Times]

we kalifornians can't get the p250 :(

[fustercluck]

sacrificing liberty for the promise of security...

[Good Times]

I'm curious as to how you would compare the SP2022 vs P229 vs P2000/P2000SK?

[4x4mike]

To me it's the handles. The non double stack Sigs are pretty narrow compared to the Hk's. I had my heart set on an HK USP .45 and stepped away because it just didn't feel right. I never shot one, until recent, and I'm glad I didn't buy it because of the way it felt (or didn't feel for that matter) in the hand. I don't have huge hands but I like a medium width grip that has enough length to wrap all 4 fingers around (hope that doesn't sound too gross, come one think handgun). The mid and compact guns have too short of a handle for me to comfortably grip the handle, acquire the target, grip and squeeze. YMMV but just handle as many as you can and as much as you can afford shoot as many as you can.

[reggie 00]

we kalifornians can't get the p250 :(




My little brother is almost out of the CHP academy.
I'll talk him into getting one and then talk him into selling it to get something else.

PPT transfers are not regulated by the roster.

Loop hole???

Or i'll have finished my plan for Nevada Seasonal residency and just pick it up there..

[oly884]

I'll just say this: Glock 29

[RobG]

Couldn't find the 2000SK today to look at, I'll keep trying. Did get to hold a Kimber CDP Ultra, 3" Barrel, short handle, aluminum frame, 25 Oz. Just a beautiful great feeling gun. Just couldn't justify the $1250 price tag or it would be mine.

So I think I am settling in on the XD40 Sub. The XDs feel really good to me, small enough to keep handy, very simple to operate, seems very reliable, and only a shade over $500. Not done looking but that's the way it's looking.

That Glock 29 does look like a lot of fun though.

[Good Times]

Insight has the p2000 so we can try that when we go. I'll call ya in the afternoon to firm up a window of opportunity.

[fustercluck]

I agree that the HK USP grip is uncomfortable and narrow. I like every other aspect of the USP, so I usually slip a Hogue Handall Universal Grip over the factory one. It provides a nice non-slip surface with ambi palm swells, finger grooves and a pebbled texture.

Here are three of my HKs with the Hogues

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/hks011.jpg

[bamachem]

I'm curious as to how you would compare the SP2022 vs P229 vs P2000/P2000SK?


The 2022 is a VERY NICE firearm. I loved all of the Sig Pros that I've owned. They are very nice in the hand and the triggers are GREAT! However, they were too large to easily conceal, and therefore they didn't necessarily fit what I truly wanted.

Once I sold the last one (2022 in 40), I decided to try a P229. I picked up a SAS version for the sheer beauty of the weapon. It was a superb weapon, but as stated before, it was too pretty to carry. The 229 in itself is a good weapon, but the alloy frame tends to add quite a bit of weight as well as the 12+1 capacity. In reality, if I were going to carry one, it would have to be OWB on a heavy belt or in a shoulder holster. Overall it's a great gun, but heavy and still a little too big to be considered a good IWB concealed carry handgun.

The P200SK... ahhhh... where do I start? First of all, it's about the only other brand ever mentioned on the Sig Forum other than a Sig for concealed carry. That says a lot. I had handled some USP's and a P2000, but never an SK until a few weeks ago. I actually ordered the P2kSK without ever holding one. I did compare sizes to the 229 and to my bersa by using the specs (length/width/height) and pics to sketch them all out. The SK was supposed to be the size of my Bersa 380, but with 9+1 capacity of either 357SIG or 40SW and a 2-finger grip for easier concealment. The option of having an extended grip for 3-fingers and 12+1 is a really nice addition. I ordered one and fell in love when I picked it up. The size is *PERFECT* for me. With a short mag in, I can conceal it in a cheap IWB under an untucked T-shirt with no printing at all. With the 12-rd mag, it prints just a hair on the end of the mag baseplate due to it's shape and the longer grip. With the 12-rd clip, the grip is the exact same size as the P2000 - at that point, the only difference is the shorter barrel/slide. For me, that made the decision on wheter to get the P2000 or P2kSK. By adding the grip extension at will, I can have either a subcompact or compact and the slightly shorter barrel just makes it easier to conceal and cuts down on the weight.

Out of the 3, the trigger on the 2022 is the best, followed by the DAK trigger on the 229SAS. As far as quality/workmanship/fit/finish goes, I would have to put the HK ahead of the sigs. As far as weight, it's the HK by leaps and bounds. For size, the winner is the HK and capacity - they're all even since they were all 12+1 (when the HK USPc mag is used). For caliber, I love the 357 sig, and the ONLY reason I still have the 40S&W barrel is because I still have 300-rounds of HST's and 200-rounds of Winchester White Box plinkers that I don't really want to sell. Besides, locally, the 40's are much cheaper than the 357 ammo, but they're esentially the same price online, so keeping the 40 barrel just gives me more viable options for target rounds.

[oly884]

That Glock 29 does look like a lot of fun though.


The 10mm is a great round IMO, but not everyone shares that. However, with that said, I'd still be more than happy carrying a 9mm or 40S&W so long as I was proficient with the firearm. Comfort and accuracy take precedence over caliber any day.

[RobG]

After holding the P2000SK in the store and trying the P2000 (in 9mm) at the range the P2000SK is my current favorite. Very similar to the XDSub in size, feels a little better in my hand, trigger is a little nicer, it's SA/DA with the decocker, really like the decocker feature and the cockable hammer.

bacachem - Thanks for your very detailed posts, that really helped. For some reason I totally overlooked the HK line.

Just need to look into/think about a few more things before I pull the trigger.
- Do I really need/want the subcompact?
- How/where would I carry this?
- Is the P2000 really worth the $300 over the XD to me?
- Do any of the local ranges have a 2000SK they rent?

Being this is CA I am not going to have the opportunity to legally conceal carry it many places in CA, it will only see use at the range and on trips. That might make a better case for the XD or a larger version of the HK or XD. If this was something I was using on a more frequent basis no question I'd get a P2000SK today (+10). How exactly would you open carry a subcompact?

Thanks everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

Lance great to finally meet you. Good luck in your 9mm quest. We need a shooting trip once we have this sorted out.

[Seanz0rz]

After holding the P2000SK in the store and trying the P2000 (in 9mm) at the range the P2000SK is my current favorite. Very similar to the XDSub in size, feels a little better in my hand, trigger is a little nicer, it's SA/DA with the decocker, really like the decoker feature and the cockable hammer.

bacachem - Thanks for your very detailed posts, that really helped. For some reason I totally overlooked the HK line.

Just need to look into/think about a few more things before I pull the trigger.
- Do I really need/want the subcompact?
- How/where would I carry this?
- Is the P2000 really worth the $300 over the XD to me?
- Do any of the local ranges have a 2000SK they rent?

Being this CA I am not going to have the opportunity to legally conceal carry it many places in CA, it will only see use at the range and on trips. That might make a better case for the XD or a larger version of the HK or XD. If this was something I was using on a more frequent basis no question I'd get a P2000SK today (+10). How exactly would you open carry a subcompact?

Thanks everyone for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

Lance great to finally meet you. Good luck in your 9mm quest. We need a shooting trip once we have this sorted out.


my dad has the p2000. i like it, but this is the question i had to ask myself. he got a smoking deal on it as a used gun from his brother who is in law enforcement. the xd will be my first handgun, something to learn on and grow with. eventually ill move on to bigger and better. ive fired the xd, and i really liked it. it was very accurate, easy to shoot, felt comfortable in my hand, and the mechanisms were all easy to work and just made sense. disassemble was a snap, reassembly was too! overall thats my choice. its inexpensive, but i still feel its a quality product.

[4x4mike]

RobG, you have good questions. I asked myself these questions as well when I got my XD. I think even the subcompact XD comes with a "tacticool" holster so you could use that. Most ranges don't allow holsters any way so I don't worry about that. The cost is one of the deciding factors when it comes down to it, I know this because I used to work retail.

Have you tried a Glock 17 or 19. The 17 is a mid size 9mm and the 19 is considered their sub compact. The 19 can use the 17 mags if need be. For the price, simplicity and accuracy the 17 is hard to beat. I would have got one but the XD was on sale (again cost is the deciding factor) so I went with it because for awhile it was a toss up between the 2.

[RobG]

Sean - I agree with you 100%. I really like the XD, it just feels great to me. I shot the 4" in 40 last night and the Sub in 9mm, I've been shooting the 9mm 4 at my range. I'm good with either but prefer the sub for carrying. Thanks to CA there isn't much difference in ammo capacity between the 2. I also like the passive safeties on the XD that the HK doesn't have. I went to a local gun shop last night and the salesman was very good, said he had an XD that had 20,000 rounds though it with no issues.

My situation is a little different than yours as I am way older than you and my wife is an anti gun person, took a long time just to get to this point. In her defense she is very worried about my 3 young daughters. So this may be my only pistol until the kids are of legal age (10 years). That is why I am leaning toward the HK, if I were in your position I would have bought the XD. Also when I was firing the XDsub last night I had a round that didn't go off and jammed, undoubtedly crappy range reloads but with the HK I would have the option of a few more trigger pulls to try to fire the primer.

Mike - I had an open carry discussion with Lance last night, open carry was something I never considered but need to look into. So I am wondering how well a subcompact lends itself to that. To clarify I'm only considering it for more remote off road and exploring situations, not around town. Need to do some research on this, would love a ccw for remote areas only type of permit but in the wake of Mike Corona there are no more ccw's here even if there was such a thing. Still have research to do.

I've shot a few glocks, they are nice guns, just not for me. Don't like the handle or the trigger. I did fondle a 10mm last night though.

[Good Times]

Rob it was a pleasure meeting ya! Always great to be able to put the face behind the posts and the south park avatar ;)

I've been doing my due diligence for some time on what kind of firearm to get based on my needs and I think I'm finally coming down to the home stretch. One thing I did was take out the $$ factor. This ensured that my firearm selection wouldn't be biased and will truly be based on feel/comfort of the firearm in my hands as I shoot. Being able to shoot comfortably and accurately will be key for me when I need it so if that means spending a few bucks on the firearm then I'm ok with it. The difference of a few bucks really isn't breaking the bank for me anyway so I figure if I do end up with a really expensive firearm, then it's $$ well spent. Though I do have a 1k cap but then again the majority fits that bill anyway :)

Like Rob I'm stuck here in Kalifornia so the ccw option doesn't exist unless the laws change but that likelihood is slim. One thing we can do is legally open carry (unloaded) which means the firearm in a holster that is not concealed and not loaded (but we can have the mag attached to the holster or waist/hip mount). We can legally carry it anywhere except for school zones, government facilities and post offices. I'm not sure what the legalities are in the sticks w/ ccw w/o a permit (I'm guessing you can't w/o a ccw permit) but at a minimum we can still open carry out there so this will work for me. I won't be open carrying in the city as I don't see the need to carry on a daily basis. It would be awesome but there are way too many friggin school zones here it would be a pita to lock up all of the time when I drive by a school zone. Note that the open carry law also works while in your vehicle.

The only downsize with open carry is that it's visible that you have a firearm on your waist or thigh (drop leg holster) so I'll stand out like a sore thumb. Would be awesome to ccw but in this great state of Kalifornia that won't happen :( Maybe I should change careers and go into jewelry sales or something haha.

Time to call around for deals and steals :D

[Robinhood4x4]

Much to the chagrin of Fuster, I just don't see a $300 difference in quality or shootability between my XD and my wife's P2000. They both shoot fine and I can shoot them equally well. Neither of them have any manufacturing defects or malfunctions. In fact, I'd almost say the machine work on my XD is better than the HK (and remember I have some experience with machining and manufacturing). Maybe these are just my guns, but that's all I can go on.

With the short mag, my XDSC is the same size as my SW 642 snubnose revolver. My revolver is for pocket carry with a pocket holster and it'll fit into my jean pockets nicely. So, when you're out in the middle of nowhere, there are more options than a belt holster. I would NOT carry a single action xd or glock (loaded)in a pocket without a holster, for safety reasons.

Even if you think you will always open carry, I think the versatility of a sub outweighs everything else. It gives you more options should the need arise or your situation changes.

On the other side...a non-subcompact just plain looks better than a subcompact. Subcompacts look out of proportion to me.

Oh, and the XD does come with a holster, but it is not conducive to concealed carry. It sticks out a lot, unlike some other outside the waistband holsters than snug up a little closer to the body.

[bamachem]

yeah, i can see where you guys are looking at a $300 difference between the P2000SK and a XDc and just can't justify it. i'm the same way.

however, for me, the XDsc was $595 out the door with tax and only one caliber/barrel where the P2000SK was $735 out the door with shipping, FFL transfer fee, laser, and an extra barrel worth over $200. all for $140 difference. i could keep the 40 barrel and sell the 357 sig barrel for $250 or more and the laser for another $50, making it $160 cheaper than what i could have had the new XD subcompact for. that's a different story from what you're looking at in Kalifornistan.

oh, and i picked up 9 boxes of Blazer Brass ammo at Wal-Mart today for $12.47 a box. That was for 40SW 180gr FMJ's. Too cheap to pass up. they had 9mm for $8.97 and 45 for $15.97 as well. too bad they didn't have any 357SIG in it or i would have been REALLY happy.

[RobG]

So it took a while but I finally did it, wound up with a Sig P239 in 357sig. Got a great deal on it here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=133595 thanks for the hookup Lance. :smokin:

In the end I just couldn't justify the cost of the H&K and wound up getting this for about the same price as the XD with similar options.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it was very valuable and is greatly appreciated.

Rob

[Good Times]

Rob,

the next 10 days will be hell! not that it's already been hell just waiting but the anticipation will kill ya if you don't keep busy with something else ;) when you pick up your piece, maybe we can do a run out there. may even find some place to shoot while we're out there? prob should ask Ernie for some recommendations.

Congrats :D

[reggie 00]

Nice.

Now i know some one from here over there.
Be Careful lots of stuff over there to get you in trouble.

Now, i need to find a new safe since i filled the one i bought this summer up......

[fustercluck]

So......we need pics ASAP or we'll be forced to assume you really got one of these...

http://www.charterfirearms.com/images/products/prod_pgs/53830.gif

...with a Hello Kitty label. Hehe.

[RobG]

Damn Lance I asked you not to mention the custom Hello Kitty work.

It's CA so T minus 8 days and counting. Shortly after Jan. 20th the rest of you will understand what we have to deal with first hand.

[Good Times]

hahaha!!!

fuster we all know that's your snubby so be trying to point the blame on someone else ;)

I gotta agree the 10 day waiting period really does suck donkey balls.