Bailout's On?

[Obi..]

Thoughts?

[Seanz0rz]

as much as i think that all 3 deserve to go under for decades of horrible products and a lack of caring for the consumer, i am very very happy they are getting some cash. hopefully this is the wakeup call the industry needed, and will listen to it.

[Bob98SR5]

How much do you want to bet that these bailouts will die a slow death because of the greedy f##g unions? Unions as a whole don't concede much, and if they do concede, its temporary. When will Americans and companies learn that unions have outlived their useful purpose and as we've seen, become so burdensome on a company's bottom line that their products are overpriced due to the inflated labor cost and do NOT guarantee better quality? I've read a certain TOF owner say over and over again that unions are the panacea to fixing problems. NO they are not. They complain about outsourcing as the source of production problems. Of course, small minded, selfish thinking like this does not realize that because of overinflated labor and the accompanying benefit packages force companies to cut costs in areas where they dont have to deal with burdensome union bulls###. So they look to outsource component manufacturing (for example).

I know there's some of you who are union and do an outstanding job and provide great benefits to your companies, but in the case of these UAW guys, they are paid way more and their products generally suck in terms of product quality as compared to foreign companies such as Toyota and their non-union AMERICAN workers who are paid competitively but do not pander to the whole cry baby collective bargaining bulls##t that the UAW is generally known for

Sorry for the somewhat tangential rant, but we'll see if the UAW is on board with thinking about the company before themselves

[Whitey]

How much do you want to bet that these bailouts will die a slow death because of the greedy f##g unions? Unions as a whole don't concede much, and if they do concede, its temporary. When will Americans and companies learn that unions have outlived their useful purpose and as we've seen, become so burdensome on a company's bottom line that their products are overpriced due to the inflated labor cost and do NOT guarantee better quality? I've read a certain TOF owner say over and over again that unions are the panacea to fixing problems. NO they are not. They complain about outsourcing as the source of production problems. Of course, small minded, selfish thinking like this does not realize that because of overinflated labor and the accompanying benefit packages force companies to cut costs in areas where they dont have to deal with burdensome union bulls###. So they look to outsource component manufacturing (for example).

I know there's some of you who are union and do an outstanding job and provide great benefits to your companies, but in the case of these UAW guys, they are paid way more and their products generally suck in terms of product quality as compared to foreign companies such as Toyota and their non-union AMERICAN workers who are paid competitively but do not pander to the whole cry baby collective bargaining bulls##t that the UAW is generally known for

Sorry for the somewhat tangential rant, but we'll see if the UAW is on board with thinking about the company before themselves

I'm glad someone said it...

[Seanz0rz]

i agree, i think the UAW needs to make HUGE concessions at this point. if they dont, they wont have an industry to unionize...

[corax]

How much do you want to bet that these bailouts will die a slow death because of the greedy f##g unions? Unions as a whole don't concede much, and if they do concede, its temporary. When will Americans and companies learn that unions have outlived their useful purpose and as we've seen, become so burdensome on a company's bottom line that their products are overpriced due to the inflated labor cost and do NOT guarantee better quality?

According to Forbes:




Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.

What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a PhD.





Then there's the "Job Bank"

When a D3 (Detroit 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.

Here's a typical story....

Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.

[oly884]

Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.


I feel sorry for Mr. Pool. A man who accepts that as "work" is a pitiful human. He has no work ethic, and a clear lack of self esteem possibly covered by an enlarged ego. Every one of those 12,000 workers should be fired immediately with an instant stop to all benefits, etc. Call me a hard ass or inconsiderate, but as it has always been, in order to get things, you have to TRADE things. I trade my time and talents at my company for health benefits and money.

These people are trading NOTHING, the company is gaining absolutely NOTHING from these people, and they are still receiving pay. Sure they did, at some point, trade their time, but at this point, what justifies them being payed to come into a building to sit and do crossword puzzles?

Nothing.

These people are the reason that this country is now so messed up, and the mentality of these unions, politicians, and workers that think this is OK is the reason we are so messed up. I can only hope that if/when a depression comes, these people are the least prepared and they suffer the full consequences of their actions.

Absolutely disgusting.

[Good Times]

damn I'm in the wrong industry. how do I go about and get a job at one of these auto plants? I'll even take the one at Toyota so I can pick out my own car/truck off the line! ;)



I feel sorry for Mr. Pool. A man who accepts that as "work" is a pitiful human. He has no work ethic, and a clear lack of self esteem possibly covered by an enlarged ego. Every one of those 12,000 workers should be fired immediately with an instant stop to all benefits, etc. Call me a hard ass or inconsiderate, but as it has always been, in order to get things, you have to TRADE things. I trade my time and talents at my company for health benefits and money.

These people are trading NOTHING, the company is gaining absolutely NOTHING from these people, and they are still receiving pay. Sure they did, at some point, trade their time, but at this point, what justifies them being payed to come into a building to sit and do crossword puzzles?

Nothing.

These people are the reason that this country is now so messed up, and the mentality of these unions, politicians, and workers that think this is OK is the reason we are so messed up. I can only hope that if/when a depression comes, these people are the least prepared and they suffer the full consequences of their actions.

Absolutely disgusting.


I am SOOOOOO with you here!!!

I bet if they did this their wages would be more realistic to what everyone else makes. In Los Angeles, there's really no way to make that much with a high school education. If you do, damn you're either one great entrepreneur or just lucky and won the lottery!

[Whitey]

I hate to use facts on an internet forum, but...

The "Ken Pool" article was written in 2005, not in response to the most recent auto industry woes.

Ron Gettlefinger announced about 10 days ago that he was willing to make concessions to secure the government money, which include getting rid of job banks and putting health care trust funding on hold.

[Whitey]

I am SOOOOOO with you here!!!

I bet if they did this their wages would be more realistic to what everyone else makes. In Los Angeles, there's really no way to make that much with a high school education. If you do, damn you're either one great entrepreneur or just lucky and won the lottery!

Take a look at what the union workers at the Port of LA/Long Beach make...

[Good Times]

Take a look at what the union workers at the Port of LA/Long Beach make...


Where do I find this out? the port is close enough that if ppl make that much $$ damn I'm gonna apply and do a major career change!

[Bob98SR5]

Take a look at what the union workers at the Port of LA/Long Beach make...


I remember the port of LA strike very well b/c i was managing part of our family's export business. because "union brotherhood" dictated that they supported the clerical workers and initiate a general strike because they wanted to modernize (iirc) their old CHALKBOARD AND CHALK method of managing incoming/outgoing freight. They wanted to install computers and the dipsh#t union rep went on camera demanding job security for these 18th century skills having union brothers who were not equipped with modern day smarts and initiative to learn how to use a computer. seriously, in any other private, non-union industry, your ass would be fired for not knowing how to use a computer.

...betcha those people in the clerical union know how to turn on a computer and surf f'g porn like nobody's business.

yes, you bet i'm pissed about this because we lost tens of thousands in sales in 3 months because everyone at the port is entitled to a job, even if their skills are (supposedly) antiquated

and i recall from an article in the LA times that said a starting port worker makes in the 80K range. this is a person w/ a high school education. i mean sure, the job is dangerous, but 80k? and who pays? yes, the consumer. personally, i can't wait until somewhere along the CA or Mexican coast that they open a union-free port.

[corax]

personally, i can't wait until somewhere along the CA or Mexican coast that they open a union-free port.


Baja port proposed to rival Los Angeles, Long Beach (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=59973)

[Whitey]

personally, i can't wait until somewhere along the CA or Mexican coast that they open a union-free port.

Baja port proposed to rival Los Angeles, Long Beach (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=59973)

Definitely an ambitious idea, but I imagine it would be a colossal logistics nightmare. Imagine the Mexican mafia picking off shipments coming into the mainland from the port.

[Ric]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd139/Rix4rnr/ATT00000.jpg

[bigwapitijohnny]

I remember seeing a union worker as a patient earlier in my career. I was astonished at how 'enabled' this woman was. She had NOT been working the assembly line, at the local GM plant, for over 6 months due to various health issues. Anyway, she was looking for a dentist to 'excuse' her from work for the previous 2 months due to an abcessed tooth. Long story short, after I declined, I ended up talking to her union representative head, and was informed that they could NOT do anything about this woman because of the union rules. If the greed of man has tied the hands of the unions to the point of this kind of exploitation of the rules, I say let them go down.

Remember, in order for Wal-Mart to rise, Montgomery Ward had to go bankrupt...Creative destruction works and works rather well. Our strong economy, creativity, and entreprenurial spirit always works...

[wifesaysimadumbass]

i work a union job, we work hard and definately have skills but the union bulls@#t is ridiculous! we have so many rules that create work for other job classifications. perfect example; i work on gas metering equipment. i can tear down an entire assembly but, the one high pressure valve i cant touch because that's this other dudes job. so i tear it all down and rebuild it but if that one little part leaks guess what the other guy has to come and tear it all down again just to change that valve. this type of crap kills me but i just keep my head down and keep working!!!

[drguitarum2005]

don't even get me started on unions, especially the UAW

i worked directly with the UAW and every day i was more amazed that such an organization was allowed to exist. since i was an engineer and thus not on the union, i was not allowed to do ANY physical labor. if i need a BOLT brought up to my desk to look at it and design something using it, i had to call an overpaid group leader to bring it up. i would maybe see it the next day and maybe it would be the right bolt. i knew exactly where that bolt was down in the tool crib.

i went out to the floor and picked up a piece of tooling to measure it to design something for it (im legally allowed to do this) and got my head bitten off by a union guy for "stealing his job". this happened all the freakin time. heaven forbid i do anything but lower my head and nod to this guy or the UAW would be on my back and between fighting with the UAW or firing a single employee, who do you think the company is going to choose?

at any given time during the day i'd walk through the floor and see 5 union guys napping with their feet kicked up on a desk with one person turning a wrench. i'd walk outside and see 10 guys smoking and talking.

the plant used to be home to over 20000 people and was the ONLY place where engines were built and tested. now we build TWO engines there. everything else is assembled and tested at various other NON-UNION locations. thousands of square feet of building space are now abandoned or storage and tens (maybe even hundreds) of test cells are permanently locked up. then the union guys complain about the lack of work and "outsourcing" when really the work is being "outsourced" to AMERICAN workers at AMERICAN plants that don't have to put up with union bullshit. they're shooting themselves in the foot and don't even know it.

[Bob98SR5]

...and got my head bitten off by a union guy for "stealing his job". this happened all the freakin time. heaven forbid i do anything but lower my head and nod to this guy or the UAW would be on my back and between fighting with the UAW or firing a single employee, who do you think the company is going to choose?

Exactly. I experienced somewhat of the same, but not the physical labor part. We were listening to union reps talk about job security in light of certain proposals that the company might enact due to a rail derailment here in CA where it was found that the union rail worker was on the job too long. not all, but the majority of union guys manipulate the system to make sure that the next shift they work, they are on over or doubletime. its as simple as not taking your break because you were working, but taking them at the end of the day so that your unfinished 1/2 hour would be in, guess what, overtime territory! so every hour after that is OT. thats not hard work, thats straight up bull(Bobby watch your mouth!)...t that sinks the company because it increases labor costs, which in most companies, is the #1 greatest expense.

oh, and dont get me started on the union cry baby tactic of filing a grievance. some of these guys...lets just say they are intellectually challenged. so they can't stand up for themselves when confronted, so they file a cry baby union grievance against you. again, like you said, its better for your manager to acquiesce than to fight the entire union. they all act/talk tough about handling things man to man, but as i've been told, if they dont get their way, they file grievances.

800-WAAABUMLANCE.



at any given time during the day i'd walk through the floor and see 5 union guys napping with their feet kicked up on a desk with one person turning a wrench. i'd walk outside and see 10 guys smoking and talking.


i was told at my company, one straight up manager got so fed up with this sh#t that he'd drive to work sites to spot check if people were truly working or not. as it was told to me, the majority of the time right after lunch (1-3pm), he'd catch most crews just sleeping their equus asinus' off. in fact, the joke in my company is that between 1 and 3pm, its called "radio silence" :shake:



the plant used to be home to over 20000 people and was the ONLY place where engines were built and tested. now we build TWO engines there. everything else is assembled and tested at various other NON-UNION locations. thousands of square feet of building space are now abandoned or storage and tens (maybe even hundreds) of test cells are permanently locked up. then the union guys complain about the lack of work and "outsourcing" when really the work is being "outsourced" to AMERICAN workers at AMERICAN plants that don't have to put up with union bullshit. they're shooting themselves in the foot and don't even know it.


its the entitlement mentality. the union bosses say that you have job security, pay your union dues, and we'll protect you, blah, blah, blah. thats great and all when the company makes tons of money, but in lean times, it acts as a drain on the company's ability to quickly lay off workers who are non-essential but still are accountable for paying benefits. so in the eyes of the union, paying salary to only its union bretheren is job #1, not the survival of the company.

0h, thats great news that the work is being done in non-union shops. and im sure the quality is better too.

again, this is not a condemnation of people per se, but what unions can *do* to people. we all know people who work jobs who are forced to be in unions. case in point: my friend who is a cop. he busts his equus asinus, probably to the detriment to his own social life and marriage. but he loves the job, but loathes the union for all the cry baby union hand wringing and forcing him to vote in favor for things that do nothing but to create organizational anarchy and divisiveness.

go getters are beaten down into "playing by the rules" and therefore lose the incentive to improve upon one's self and their position. naive, outdated seniority rules are backwards equus asinus social promotion programs that dont take into account the quality of work or the quality of the worker's character. i know of a certain person on TOF who opined for the days when the union seniority rule would kick in so he'd get preference in getting hired first. but in the meantime, he cried like a little ******* because, quite frankly, he learned the hard way that hauling pallets from point A to point B in the REAL WORLD paid jack s##t, as it really should. its not a skilled position. and i believe most people are ok with paying a person who has tangible, hard to earn skills, that those people shoud be paid. mostly those in technical fields, for example.

ok, rant over.

[Small_words]

My grandfather and uncle ran a plating business outside Chicago. He started it in the 40's and was terrified that the Teamsters would get their hooks in him and he'd be toast. Lucky guy was able to keep the unions out by paying every guy $5 more per hour than union wages dictated. It hurt his bottom line, but he never had to deal with strikes or poor productivity. Incidentally, he was a union pipe fitter and he couldn't stand the unions, but it was Chicago...when things were REALLY corrupt.
-Old thread, but a good one

[hillbilly]

I know this will shock everyone, but it appears the 'controlled failure (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090401/ts_nm/us_autos_report_sb)' of GM is more likely than not. :lame: Absolutely pisses me off that taxpayer money was dumped into any of these companies. AIG included.

I agree with many of the comments above, but this type of greed doesn't stop at just labor unions. Pro athletes and their contracts/pay checks are beyond ridiculous. :chair: Especially considering the whole "banned substance" abuse BS. Its nearly to the point that an above-average athlete can't even compete unless he/she's "enhancing" in some way. (Whatever happened to just being called a druggie?!?) So much for role models... :shake:

The only upshot I see to the downturn in the economy (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090331/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_ap_poll_baseball_4) is that it may cause a 'correction' in this mess. I love sports just as much as the next guy, but we, the people, need to start turning our backs on ridiculous ticket prices that supports this BS. Without us, they're nothing.

To hell with pro sports. Give me collegiate athletics (but don't even think about charging for conference specific channels cause it ain't gonna happen). :devil:

[Good Times]

The plus side to all of this....



Your taxes will be paying for my home and cars payments along with any warranty related issues. yay!!! now I don't have to work and just collect unemployment/food stamps and live off the government! tell me this isn't the finest? chill out and surf the internet all day and just have everything paid... now that's the life! :flipoff:



:argue: :chair:

[DHC6twinotter]

The plus side to all of this....



Your taxes will be paying for my home and cars payments along with any warranty related issues. yay!!! now I don't have to work and just collect unemployment/food stamps and live off the government! tell me this isn't the finest? chill out and surf the internet all day and just have everything paid... now that's the life! :flipoff:



:argue: :chair:



Sounds good to me! There isn't any point to working anymore. All the rich folks and government will pay for all my stuff. But maybe all the rich folks will stop working too! Then the government will run out of money and borrow from China. Oh…wait…that’s already happening….maybe borrow from Pakistan?

http://images.ih8mud.com/images/smilies/bang.gifhttp://images.ih8mud.com/images/secretsmilies/shotts.gif

Seriously though, I don't think the government should be bailing anybody out. This just opens the door for the government to take control of a company. Obama already fired the CEO of Ford. :confused: That's starting to sound pretty socialistic to me.

[Small_words]

Listen to this one fellas:
Click on Jim Gossett does "Two Trillion Tons"

https://www.larslarson.com/pg/jsp/charts/streamingAudioMaster.jsp?dispid=362&size=10&headerDest=/pg/jsp/media/audiofileswelcome.jsp