Zeitgeist.....

[thook]

Hello all. I've been in a couple of hearty discussions before here which have continued to linger in the back of my mind. I know everyone sees things the way they see them, so it's not a challenge......although, you may find it challenging...hehe. However, given what I've just said, if you're interested, I figure by posting this it will further clarify some of the viewpoints I've attempted to illustrate.

Anyway, I'll post what I posted on another forum:



I've run across some info lately that I personally find rather important. I tend to keep my mouth shut most of the time about things like this, but felt a strong urge to pass this on. I'll warn you, it's not for the religiously or politically sensitive.

First, the documentary movie Zeitgeist. If you haven't heard of it or seen it.......and, you are interested in this sort of stuff......you should watch this movie. Even if you're typically not interested in this sort of stuff, it's a real eye opener. It's in two parts and can be downloaded or watched at the website:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Watch "The Movie" first, then "Addendum". Set aside some time, it's full length.

Second, if you've never heard of William Cooper...or even if you have....his writings and radio programs are something to pay attention to. He is, of course, deceased, but the info is still out there and his program continues with those that knew him and were involved in his work.

Here's one of the last articles he wrote. It's lengthy, as well. So, take some time:

http://www.hourofthetime.com/majestyt.htm

On the surface, it may appear as any other conspiracy type hoopla that is out there, but if you pay close attention and even do some follow up, you'll see the importance of what's being said.

That is all. :fishing:

[Whitey]

I think you're a little late on the movie, personally.
It's been discussed ad nauseam in most circles since it came out.

[thook]

Maybe be so, but I'm out of the loop usually. So, it was news to me. The movie, that is.

Oh well. Since it's nothing earth shattering to anyone........and, even nauseating to some, I guess it's not that important.

[calrockx]

Zeitgeist is a rad bar in San Francisco.

[Bob98SR5]

^^^

He said "Rad"...heheh :p

[DHC6twinotter]

I've never heard of the movie or the bar. :headscratch:

[Scuba]

Maybe

I FOUND YOU !!!! HAHHHHHHAAH



:bling:

[thook]

Rad!!!!! Hahaha....s'up, Scub?!

Rad....will the 80's never die?



Zeitgeist is a totally awesome bar in San Francisco.


That's better.....:D

[fustercluck]

It is indeed interesting as intellectual chewing gum. Keeps one busy ruminating while remaining unproductive. I am currently reading this rebuttal http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/. I have not finished, but thought others might enjoy this flavor of gum too.

[thook]

I'll have to read it all over again...probably a few times. But, at first reading.....in some instances, second and third...I find the rebuttals hard to believe.
For example, quotes....like Jon Ashcrofts testimony....could outright be lies. Lies just as the author claims the movie to be. I mean, the author is assuming his sources are telling the truth, or atleast believe they are. It's not unreasonable to believe the "claimed" 9/11 conspirators knew facts would be so obscurred ....even unintentionally...before attacks and subsequent investigations....ie. using circumcstantial fact as a veil....ie Ashcroft's flight and common security practice. As well, Arab names and identification being confusing to trace. I have no proof of my own to back that up, but understanding what I do of the nature of the methodical liar it's conceivable to me.

What's notable to me is that a method often used by "conspirators" is obfuscation. Things that I've read by persons I find to be authorative on the subjects (example, William Cooper) and those subjects related is that obscurity has been practiced over and over again to keep people like us (the "common people") and the sources that we are able to garner information from really knowing the truth. In other words, nullifying both the conspiracy theorists and the debunkers and thereby leaving us at an impass because either side believes they have the truth or atleast most of it. So, people....again, the commoners.....will stand on their respective side of the fence and squabble dividedly. Which seems to me is what the "new world order" would want. Why wouldn't they? It should seem apparent that political and economic rulers are in fact trying to gain more and more control. Look at the erosion of constituional freedoms and national sovereignty. I really don't think it's for our protection and therefore more solidify our freedoms.

I really don't have more to say right now. I'll have to read the rebuttals more. But, did you happen to read the Cooper article I posted?

[fustercluck]

I've been a bit preoccupied with our holiday guests and the phantom toilet clogger (no one will fess up...) to do much reading. I will say that every conspiracy theorist I have spoken to, when confounded with facts disputing their position, returns to the original question, "What temperature does steel melt at and what temperature was the fire at it's hottest?"

They are further confounded when I declare that is not the salient question. With the forces applied to that steel, how hot must it be to lose it's integrity? Steel loses it's ability to support tons of weight to the point of collapse at a much lower temperature than what it takes to melt it. In fact anyone who has ever worked with steel knows that one can weaken it with natural flame to the point that a man can distort it's shape with his own strength.

Ultimately, my experience with 911 conspiracy theorists is that they are more convinced by their own political agenda which is then projected onto the theory. They rely on half truths, distortions, ignorance and laziness to promote their perspective. No doubt they are seductive....if we ignore what we actually saw and believe a political conspiracy like this can actually be suppressed by the hundreds of bureaucrats that would have to be involved; the truth never to emerge from within.

[oly884]

Ultimately, my experience with 911 conspiracy theorists is that they are more convinced by their own political agenda which is then projected onto the theory.


And the nail is hit on the head...

I'm not going to argue that our liberties are being stripped, because they are. However, the idea that some core group of people are responsible for 9/11 all in order to take over the world goes beyond far-fetched. Granted, this is just my opinion, but when the notion of everything that would have to be done to accomplish that is really looked at (and not just accepted as "it just happened") you begin to see the absurdity of it all.

How many hundreds, if not thousands, of people would have to remain completely silent about those events? What is the probability that no one would say a single word?

And don't get me going on the engineering/science aspects of that day that truthers are completely ignoring.

[thook]

Well, Oly and Fuster...I'm glad to see both of you having replied. I was hoping so.

Ignorance and laziness......half truths and distortions, Fuster? Have you read that Cooper article, yet? :hillbill: Granted, I know there's a lot of that out there with conspiracies, but it certainly doesn't exclude the debunkers. As if the debunkers have the whole truth and aren't motivated by their agendas? Fuster....come on, man.

But, Oly I am truly interested to hear what you have to say about what the truthers are completely ignoring. Believe me when I say though I do tend to lean towards conspiracy, I would like to believe things aren't so sinister. It is not fun.

Maybe you can answer this, though. Considering what Fuster said about the properties of metal, how is that such a tall, tall building with the given forces of wind and concentrated areas of heat on the steel structural beams fall STRAIGHT DOWN? And, what about building 7? (And, as I recall there were some engineers that had no vested interest in a conspiracy...and, probably even no knowledge of that kind of thing....that were questioned and had explained how very, very similar the nature of the collapse was to a controlled demolition. Hmmmm....)

However, fuster, how many bureaucrats actually know? How many knew about the death/assassination of JFK? How many bureaucrats (or other people, Oly) know the details of nefarious bills before they are slid through and passed? Such bills are not even nearly as hidden as something as monumental as a supposed inside job. There are so many things that are hidden from the majority of the gov't body jand other people (that may otherwise be against corruption),I don't understand how you could think it was inconceivable in the case of 9/11. Vietnam is a very good example. The things my wife's friend (who was in Vietnam) told me that he saw that our gov't was responsible for was never brought to the attention of most let alone the media and public would be very unsettling to a lot of people. Not until much later after the war did some of the corruption come to light. Okay, some people got their hand slapped, but a little too late don't you think?

I'm sure it all seems absurd, but so is what our economy has been based on. Look at how long that has been in affect. And, who's saying anything about it? Who's doing anything about it to steer the country (and, our world) in a different direction?

Oh, and how many bureaucrats,etc. know about slave labor and trade, keep their mouths shut, and continue on with their comfy lives? I don't see many sacrificing their lifestyles and reputations for the betterment of such situations. It's all about who has the power and what's at stake. There's a lot of control to be had there.

Anyway, aside from all the conspiracy/debunking hoopla...

I was talking with my wife about all this earlier over tea and a pipe (tobacco!! ;)) and it seems to me whether who's right or not, the debating is the real distraction and conspiracy to pay attention to. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I always tend to feel rather drained by the involvement. Although it's interesting for a bit, there doesn't ever really seem to be any resolution. Nobody seems to be really any closer together. In fact, they seem to be more divided and emotionally trapped. Polarized. In other words, whether or not 9/11 was an inside job or entirely outside, it has divided people. Theoretically, it could have been any kind of event other than 9/11 with even less importance (so to speak) and people still miss the obvious. We are being divided somehow, someway, and by somebody. Probably mostly by ourselves, but there really does seem to be a power set on accomplishing this. Could it be......SATAN?! Hehehe.... :fishing:

[thook]

Lastly, quote for the day....even the millennium....

" 'Tis better to light a candle than curse the dark". I think I'm going to meditate on this a great deal.

[fustercluck]

The buildings fell straight down because they were designed to just the same way your truck has crumple zones that absorb energy far from the point of impact. These characteristics are engineered into anything more complex than a hair drier...come to think of it, even those have preemptive safety features See? for some folks alittle info goes a long way or in this case a little ignorant observation goes too far.

[thook]

Okay. Thanks for the shedding light on my ignorance. Certainly explains some inconsistencies, but still doesn't disprove an inside job.......engh.

[fustercluck]

Sorry, not your ignorance, conspiracy theorists'...I wasn't very clear.

[thook]

Hehe.....I figured you could've been talking about either...me or the theorists, but either way a good point. It is, of course, something I do not recall being mentioned nor something I even knew. So, truly my ignorance as well.

[thook]

Back with a little ammo.....<<tongue in cheek<<<

Apparently, the building was designed to collapse in such a manner, but that is in the event of demolition. And, if I understand correctly, all building of this type are designed that way. This doesn't explain why the steel beams were cut, though. It doesn't explain the molten metal from the infrastructure found in the basement, either. And, the architects explained that the buildings were designed to take collisions from aircraft....multiple, even... with the infrastructure to remain intact. And, it doesn't explain the very large explosion in the basement before the intense fires had even a chance to reach that level.

Hmmm...more reading.

[thook]

Well, after probably 2hrs of reading the website you posted, I can honestly say I'm not so sure anymore of an inside job. Atleast, not in the manner that has been presented. The conspiracies say no evidence was found of a jetliner at the Pentagon site. Yeah, so what about the photos provided? Looks like pieces of a jetliner to me. And, the gravel used to hide evidence? Yeah, so the dumpsters and trucks wouldn't sink into the soft lawn.

I still haven't found anything to explain the cuts in the structural beams, but the preperations for the possibility of airliner impact were. Boeing 707's travelling at 180mph lost in fog does not equal 747's at 5-600mph. Not too mention the large difference in the amount of fuel. And, fuel dumping down through the entire building creating very large fires with intense heat? <<<<<NOT prepared for! Structural beams insulated by asbestos = amplified heat intensity. I'm finding it very difficult to argue.

Hmmmmm....

There's a lot more that I read, but I fell asleep after a point and so I'm going to continue reading later.

Thanks, Fuster.

[oly884]

Well, Oly and Fuster...I'm glad to see both of you having replied. I was hoping so.

Ignorance and laziness......half truths and distortions, Fuster? Have you read that Cooper article, yet? :hillbill: Granted, I know there's a lot of that out there with conspiracies, but it certainly doesn't exclude the debunkers. As if the debunkers have the whole truth and aren't motivated by their agendas? Fuster....come on, man.

But, Oly I am truly interested to hear what you have to say about what the truthers are completely ignoring. Believe me when I say though I do tend to lean towards conspiracy, I would like to believe things aren't so sinister. It is not fun.

I'll have to do some digging from articles I have read, but it goes from the temperature that steel melts to even the absurd argument that because the airplane was made from aluminum, it could not have 'penetrated' the steel building because steel is stronger than aluminum... There's a lot out there that is very misleading. I'm at work right now, but I can dig up some stuff later tonight.

Maybe you can answer this, though. Considering what Fuster said about the properties of metal, how is that such a tall, tall building with the given forces of wind and concentrated areas of heat on the steel structural beams fall STRAIGHT DOWN? And, what about building 7? (And, as I recall there were some engineers that had no vested interest in a conspiracy...and, probably even no knowledge of that kind of thing....that were questioned and had explained how very, very similar the nature of the collapse was to a controlled demolition. Hmmmm....)

I remember reading that building 7 collapsed because of large oil tanks beneath the building that were used for the emergency generators. Since the buildings were connected by tunnels the fire reached the oil tanks, and with that massive fire it collapsed.

However, fuster, how many bureaucrats actually know? How many knew about the death/assassination of JFK? How many bureaucrats (or other people, Oly) know the details of nefarious bills before they are slid through and passed? Such bills are not even nearly as hidden as something as monumental as a supposed inside job. There are so many things that are hidden from the majority of the gov't body jand other people (that may otherwise be against corruption),I don't understand how you could think it was inconceivable in the case of 9/11. Vietnam is a very good example. The things my wife's friend (who was in Vietnam) told me that he saw that our gov't was responsible for was never brought to the attention of most let alone the media and public would be very unsettling to a lot of people. Not until much later after the war did some of the corruption come to light. Okay, some people got their hand slapped, but a little too late don't you think?

Ok, I'll go as far as to say that pretty much anything is possible, but when I look at the evidence, and probability of 9/11 being an inside job, I cannot honestly say that I believe it. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm sure it all seems absurd, but so is what our economy has been based on. Look at how long that has been in affect. And, who's saying anything about it? Who's doing anything about it to steer the country (and, our world) in a different direction?

Oh, and how many bureaucrats,etc. know about slave labor and trade, keep their mouths shut, and continue on with their comfy lives? I don't see many sacrificing their lifestyles and reputations for the betterment of such situations. It's all about who has the power and what's at stake. There's a lot of control to be had there.

Anyway, aside from all the conspiracy/debunking hoopla...

I was talking with my wife about all this earlier over tea and a pipe (tobacco!! ;)) and it seems to me whether who's right or not, the debating is the real distraction and conspiracy to pay attention to. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I always tend to feel rather drained by the involvement. Although it's interesting for a bit, there doesn't ever really seem to be any resolution. Nobody seems to be really any closer together. In fact, they seem to be more divided and emotionally trapped. Polarized. In other words, whether or not 9/11 was an inside job or entirely outside, it has divided people. Theoretically, it could have been any kind of event other than 9/11 with even less importance (so to speak) and people still miss the obvious. We are being divided somehow, someway, and by somebody. Probably mostly by ourselves, but there really does seem to be a power set on accomplishing this. Could it be......SATAN?! Hehehe.... :fishing:

[thook]

So far, I am finding a lot of speculations and holes in this guy's theory even though some of it's pretty convincing.

I found some more info that reinforces conspiracy, as well. So, I'm taking some time to compare.

What's still confounding to me is that in pictures right after the collisions at the Pentagon....before clean up....I don't see the wreckage that would be from a 757. (767? 747?...hehe....different sources have said different things). Incinerated from the flames? That's a stretch considering the relatively little amount of damage done to the building right at the point of impact. Photos are shown of easily combustable material still very intact right where the plane supposedly was. Not to mention, the size of the hole was very small compared to what it would have to have been to have made the hole in the other ring....C, I believe?

MOre reading.....

[thook]

Could not have penetrated the steel building? In what context was that statement made?

I haven't read about any oil tanks, yet.

[thook]

I've been watching this in blurbs.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7871917330806338693

Note: I don't take everything asserted in this film to be fact. I can see there have some speculations made, and as well some assertions are more an objective observation than a direct claim. However, there are some interviews with facts that are hard to argue. Not that said interviews are directly related to 9/11, but does show in fact that it's not inconceivable for 9/11 to be a cover up/inside job outside the knowledge of previously mentioned bureaucrats....and others.;)

I'm still reading/watching, but something I wanted to throw out there....even though I know it would seem preposterous (not to me, but to some)...is the idea that if there is a group of "rulers", it would seem as if all of this conspiracy stuff is exactly what they want. I mean, if you wanted to take over the world, why have a gov't/s that are pure in intention/without corruption and completely competent? If these same rulers have all the intelligence and means to keep something secret, how is it that these very secrets/classified information are even able to get out? Then again, maybe they don't have all the necessary means and intelligence, but to them it doesn't matter because they want the corruption to get out? In other words (I say that alot, don't I?), set up a pasty gov't for a fall making it necessary in the eyes of an easily guided public of completely distracted and desensitized sheople for a world gov't.???? I don't know, guys. There's a lot of terrorism out there, and obviously our gov't isn't up to the task. We gotta be safe somehow. Somebody's gotta oversee everything. Don't you think?

Keep watching the show. Sure looks a lot like a push for communism to me.

And, who was that McCarthy dude? They sure made him look like a ninny, didn't they?

[thook]

Oh, if you would, please read the Cooper article. Might read some of his other articles, too. What I've said above will make more sense. That is if you have the time and are interested.

[thook]

Last thing.....something else I wanted to mention.

If there is a group of rulers, wouldn't it be perfect to set up shills? Have a group of conspiracy theorists "allowed" to assert their claims publicly, but only allow them to do so because they don't have all the facts. It would be very easy, at this point, to make them ALL look like fools because it would at the same time be quite easy to debunk the claims. So much so that any persons with any REAL information were immediately associated in the same category by those who listened. The guys/gals with what seems to be REAL information seem to be dropping dead. Funny how the "shills" are still alive and well.

There's a public announcement made by JFK.....while he was still alive, of course.....that makes mention of "secret societies" in our gov't. I will have to find it. Unless, you all have already seen it???

[thook]

A REAL dude.....

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuvGEdR0THc&feature=related

Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHtOquNXJng&feature=related

There is an edited version of this speech on youtube while this one....unedited...is clearly pertinent to the times. However, if you reflect on what was said and look at all the events from that time that lead up to know, it should be obvious that this is a foreshadowing of our present.

And, should the question arise, note he never said "communists", rather he said "secret societies".

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:John_F._Kennedy

[thook]

The buildings fell straight down because they were designed to just the same way your truck has crumple zones that absorb energy far from the point of impact. These characteristics are engineered into anything more complex than a hair drier...come to think of it, even those have preemptive safety features See? for some folks alittle info goes a long way or in this case a little ignorant observation goes too far.


Take some and watch a few controlled demolitions. Then, watch unintentional collapses. Youtube has plenty.

Interesting.....haven't seen this before. Even on the debunker site you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9gdRST6zM&feature=related