possible brake caliper upgrade option

[corax]

so I was looking at my friend/roommate's spare small block modified circle track car (also has a go cart with a CBR929 engine :D) and the front calipers caught my eye because they look oddly similar to the T100 calipers I got a little while ago. I'm not planning on swapping to Wilwoods, but it'd be some good bling.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2699.jpg
except these say WILWOOD on them
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2695.jpg
so I started taking some measurements
the 1" mark is at the center of the bolt in this picture, so the mounting hole spread is 3.5" - the same spread as my 1st gen and t-100 caliper (should be the same for the 1st and 2nd gen truck/4runners)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2702.jpg
caliper height from the bolt centerline - just shy of 3"
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2701.jpg
caliper depth - the inside of the mounting ear is at the 1.5" mark - caliper centerline 1" past that - 5.25" total width
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2704.jpg

BTW, my roomy also said that Jaguar used the same 3.5" mount hole spread on a number of older cars, but with 6 piston cast iron calipers :D The other standard mount hole spread for Wilwood is 5.25" center-center, and you can get either mount pattern in a variety of caliper piston sizes, up to 2" (the S12W caliper is ~1.75" piston diameter)

************************************************** ****
The T100 S13WB calipers (90's V6 caliper with matching piston diameters)

3.5" caliper mount hole spacing (excuse the skuz, I only bothered to clean and paint the part you'll be able to see once mounted :D)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2748.jpg
caliper height from bolt centerline - just shy of 3"
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2759.jpg
caliper depth - the inside of the mounting ear is at the 1.5" mark - caliper centerline 1" past that - 5.25" total width
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk171/batardsalamano/Wilwood%20calipers/100_2758.jpg

[corax]

yep, 4 piston fixed mount (non-floating) just like 1st and 2nd gen. I'll also be sure to get piston diameter specs between the WilWood and my T100 calipers - if they are the same, then there's really no benefit anyway - besides bling factor

[corax]

SEE REVISION IN POST #1

So it looks like Wilwoods would be a direct swap - no adapters necessary. The next step is to see if my roomy has a spare caliper that I can borrow to confirm / reject this notion.

On a side note, this is a testament to the O.E. Toyota equipment available. While the Wilwoods can be had with a larger caliper piston diameter (higher apply force on the pads), it doesn't even have the cooling fins like the Toyota calipers do . . .

[slosurfer]

You'll have to forgive me for my brake dumbness.

So is any of this an upgrade from what would be on a 93 v6 4runner? Like I said, I have no clue about brake stuff.

[corax]

look at the first T100 caliper pic, the backside shot, if your calipers also have a cast in number "S12W", then it would be an upgrade only if you got a Wilwood caliper piston diameter over 1.75" (you should currently have 1.75" diameter pistons).

Say you have 1000psi generated by the master cylinder in teh brake hydraulic lines, if you have a caliper piston with 3 square inches of surface area (the flat round part), it would generate 3,000 pounds of applied force to the pads (1,000 psi x 3sq/in = 3,000 pounds force) -- now lets increase the piston diameter and thus the surface area of the piston to 5 square inches with the same MC pressure, 1,000psi x 5sq/in = 5,000 pounds of force on the pads. This added force generates elevated levels of friction and, as long as you can generate enough traction, you slow down much faster.

BTW, 1.75" diameter piston (S12W) = 2.40 sq/in
2" diameter piston = 3.14 sq/in = 31% increase

Wilwoods can be bought in all different size piston diameters for different applications. You also have to take brake bias, or the front / rear split, into account and adjust that accordingly (ditch the LPSV for a manual brake proportioning valve). Also, the larger surface area means the MC piston should be sized larger to move the added fluid volume - - - there are alot of variables involved

[Cebby]

Aren't we talking about negligible benefits until you upsize the rotors? I understand the whole additional force part of the equation, but won't that just generate more heat and warp rotors (unless a slotted and/or C/D rotor is used)?

[slosurfer]

Okay, I think I'm starting to understand now. Thanks for the lesson. :thumbup: I just went and looked and mine are "S12W" "S13WB". I feel better now. :laugh:

So there still is no plug n play brake upgrade for us 2nd gen 4runners like the 3rd gens have with the tundra upgrade?

Edit: Due to Keith's later post, I went back and looked under the dust better and mine are "S13WB"

[corax]

Aren't we talking about negligible benefits until you upsize the rotors? I understand the whole additional force part of the equation, but won't that just generate more heat and warp rotors (unless a slotted and/or C/D rotor is used)?


heat is a by-product of the friction being generated. Think about it this way it takes energy to get moving and it takes energy to stop. Where does the energy from motion go as you slow down and stop? It is transfered to heat energy, so theoretically you wouldn't generate more heat, just the same amount of heat faster. Also, heat doesn't warp rotors, uneven cooling does. High iron content rotors (the type that rust after every car wash) are less prone to this. Then there's also the false "warped" rotor syndrome, created by uneven brake pad material transfer to the rotor causing an uneven coefficient of friction as the rotor spins (slip-grip-slip-grip) -- Here's some more reading -> The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml)

Also, the main point of this isn't to suggest an "everybody" type mod - unless you want the bling of having Wilwood calipers (get the 1.75" pistons and just bolt them on, the only improvement would be weight savings and better heat disipation through the caliper itself) - but to illustrate how robust the stock equipment is. That said, improvement can be had with the bigger piston sizes available, but it's not a simple mod.

I would recommend this reading to anyone looking at brake upgrades -> Stop Tech Technical White Papers (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml)

[CJM]

The T100 not only has different calipers-it has a larger diameter master cylinder, its bigger than the LC!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251887

FWIW my t100 can stop on a dime, all I have are new calipers, performance hawk LTS pads and new rear shoes and wheel cylinders and drums.

[slosurfer]

CJM, that link shows that some of the T100's and the V6 4runner w/ ABS both have the same size (1 1/16") bore MC. :headscratch:

[CJM]

CJM, that link shows that some of the T100's and the V6 4runner w/ ABS both have the same size (1 1/16") bore MC. :headscratch:


I hadnt noticed that Chris, even so perhaps it has to do with the calipers?

One big thing I noticed was my pedal wasnt firm after I changed the whole system (calipers, rotors, pads, shoes, drums wheel cylinders) till I adjusted them more. I had initially adjusted and spun to check for freeplay, I figured a 1/2 to 3/4 of a full turn would suffice..

I then read in the FSM that the rears must be adjusted to 1-2mm of touching iirc. I choose to do it with a simple playing card I cut to fit in the inspection hold of the drum. If it cleared that I felt it was close enough and the pedal was SOOO much better.

[corax]

**Should we include the debate over steel rims versus alloy's as far as heat sink capabilities??

nah, but if you want to get technical, we could throw in rotor mounting and the resultant internal stresses generated by uneven lugnut torque on "non-captured" (able to remove without pulling the hub) rotors . . .

[Tankota]

One advantage gained by using performance calipers it that they are usually made of aluminum not cast iron. Much better head dissipation and less unsprung weight. I'll bet that those Willdwoods are aluminum and that the T100 calipers are Iron.

Just the other day I helped a friend install Rotora brand perforce brakes on his Celica. Those Rotora calipers were huge but weighed about the same, if not less that the stock single piston calipers.

[corax]

From http://www.kang-rim.com/brand/toyota.htm

ITEM NO. YEAR APPLICATION FOR CASTING NO.
3219/3220 92-88 F18N R/L
3513/3514 92-88 54-18 2A / 2B
54-18 R AISIN / 54-18 L AISIN

Camry
603/604 88-87 ALL 57-25 R/L
2015/2016 10/87-8/86 ALL 57-22 R/L
605/606 9/93-95 S/W W/4 Cyl. 35-10 R/L
605/606 95-88 Sedan 35-10 R/L
605/606 9/94-3/92 S/W 35-10 R/L
1431/1432 96-92 6Cyl 57-28 3 R / 57-28 4 L
8563/8564 96-92 4Cyl 57-28 1 / 57-28 2

Celica
1431/1432 95-94 ALL 57-28 3 R / 57-28 4 L
605/606 93-88 ST165 & ST185 4WD W/Turbo 35-10 R/L
603/604 93-88 ALL 57-25 R/L
2015/2016 91-90 ALL 57-22 R/L

Corolla, FX, FX16
3541/3542 97-93 ALL 54-22 3AR / 54-22 3BL
54-22 5401 R/L
1303/1304 92-89 ALL 51-18 NO.1 / 51-18 NO.2
1303/1304 88-87 FX16 51-18 NO.1 / 51-18 NO.2
1303/1304 88-83 FX16 FWD 51-135 C NO.1 / 51-135 D NO.2

Cressida
1236/1237 92-89 ALL P12E R/L

Paseo
8561/8562 96 ALL 48-11 1702 R/L

Tercel
8561/8562 96-91 ALL 48-18 1702 R/L
803/804 90-86 ALL 48-11 M / 48-11 N

TOYOTA TRUCK
8173/8174 95 ALL S12WE

4 Runner
8171/8172 95-91 ALL S13WB
8169/8170 91-88 ALL S12W R/L
4407/4408 87-84 ALL (4 Cyl) S12-8

Landcruiser
1478/1479 92-91 ALL S13WA
4407/4408 90-75 ALL S12-8

TOYOTA TRUCK
Pickup, Hi-Lux
8171/8172 95-91 T100 Pickup 4WD 1/2 Ton S13WB
2011/2012 95-89 2WD 4 Cyl. l 17S R/L
1242/1243 95-89 DRW AISIN 1 R/L
8567/8568 91-89 Long Bed F18Q R/L
514/515 91-8/83 2WD, 1/2 Ton AISIN
4407/4408 88-86 Long Bed 4WD W/4 Cyl. S12-8
4409/4410 85-80 Long Bed 4WD S12+8

Previa
1584/1585 97-91 2403
1471/1475 96-91 2321 R/L
1710/1711 95-90 43-18 2G R / 43-18 2H L
1472/1473 95-91 W/o ABS 2318 R/L

Van
1032/1033 86 2306 R/L

[slosurfer]

I went and looked better through the dirt on mine and I do indeed have S13WB calipers. I went back and edited my earlier post.

Now it only shows the T100 going to 95 but didn't it go past that?

Any info on the tacomas and tundras?

[CJM]

The t100 used the 3.0 V6 and was made 93-98. 93-94 saw the 3.0 and the 95-98 had the 3.4L.

I dunno what real difference they have besides the engines. Same trans, same axles, etc.

[CJM]

Did you ever switch to the t100 calipers?

Cause I found out some important info over at 4x4wire:

Apparently the reg mini trucks and runners use 18mm thick rotors. All t100 trucks use a larger 25mm thick rotor. This means that the caliper mounting bracket may be different as well. So be careful

[CJM]

FYI more info:

According to ErikB over at 4x4 wire he says the following:
Yes, 4x4 T100 calipers and rotors will bolt right onto '86-95 4x4 trucks and 4runners. No other parts needed. The caliper bore size matches the "V6" style calipers on those trucks, and their associated master cylinder and booster.

[corax]

FYI more info:

According to ErikB over at 4x4 wire he says the following:
Yes, 4x4 T100 calipers and rotors will bolt right onto '86-95 4x4 trucks and 4runners. No other parts needed. The caliper bore size matches the "V6" style calipers on those trucks, and their associated master cylinder and booster.


I haven't gotten to swapping out the brakes yet, other things seem to be getting n the way at the moment. That's good to know though, I always like to have at least 2 or 3 sources that agree. :thumbup:

[CJM]

Well I figured I would tell you BEFORE you attempted it and realized the problem lol.

[slosurfer]

Hey CJM, do you have a link for that info?

I'm still wrapping my brain around this brake stuff. :laugh: So even though the 4runner and T100 are SW13B calipers, they are actually different? Or are they the same but set up to take a thicker rotor? Or can you just stick a thicker rotor on if you have the SW13B's on a 4runner (this one sounds dumb, but thought I would ask anyways)?

[CJM]

Sure Chris:

http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1144720&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

Post by ErikB, see also pg 3-4 for more info.

Thats all I know, now whether it all works as should I dunno for sure.

[slosurfer]

Thanks! Looks like they moved onto the idler arm stuff for the rest of the thread.

So is there much advantage to having a thicker rotor if the calipers are the same?

[CJM]

I would say it would dissipate heat better, but who knows. FWIW its not an expensive upgrade if you could find someone parting out a T100, maybe you could nab the entire front setup for 100 bucks?

[slosurfer]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Less heat.

Mine stop fine at the moment w/ 33x12.5's but I know a guy running 35's who is haveing problems. But he has one of those funky 95 2nd gens, so he may not have the SW13B's on his. Kind of like NorcalBorn had the SW12's on his.

He is thinking of trying this on his 2nd gen, so it will be interesting to see what he finds.

[CJM]

Would be interesting to see what happens..keep us posted.

[slosurfer]

I'm going to send him a link to this thread and ask that he keep us posted.

[DHC6twinotter]

So, if I understand this right, I may be able to use the thicker rotors and calipers off a T100? And this would let the heat dissipate better?

This seems like a similar to the 3rd gen 4Runners with tundra brakes upgrade.

If this will work, it sure does sound nice. :D

I'll have to look at my brakes. Seems like I remember reading somewhere that early '90 4Runners had different rotors than the rest of the 2nd gens. :headscratch:

[slosurfer]

DAn you should be able to look up in there and see what casting number is on your calipers. Well, you may have to lie on your back to do it. :laugh:

[corax]

A thicker rotor by itself isn't that much of an upgrade, you'd be better off getting a good set of brake pads - go out and measure how thick the rotor on your truck is and compare it to the measurement for the T100.

[CJM]

A thicker rotor by itself isn't that much of an upgrade, you'd be better off getting a good set of brake pads - go out and measure how thick the rotor on your truck is and compare it to the measurement for the T100.


18 vs 25mm (truck vs t100) Thats quite a bit..

[Obi..]

How about the 4th agreeing and being a friend, just to tip the scales? :flipoff:

Also still consider the benefit of a 17" rim giving better ventilation/air purge.
*That and do like I did and actually break out the hydraulic meters and measure the line pressure on both at the same time and insure they are at least to factory spec, remembering mine were off by quite a bit.





FYI more info:

According to ErikB over at 4x4 wire he says the following:
Yes, 4x4 T100 calipers and rotors will bolt right onto '86-95 4x4 trucks and 4runners. No other parts needed. The caliper bore size matches the "V6" style calipers on those trucks, and their associated master cylinder and booster.


I haven't gotten to swapping out the brakes yet, other things seem to be getting n the way at the moment. That's good to know though, I always like to have at least 2 or 3 sources that agree. :thumbup:

[DHC6twinotter]

My calipers say S12W on them.

I wonder if the 2WD and 4WD 4Runners had different calipers. Shane and I are both 2wd, and we both have the S12W. :headscratch:

[Obi..]

[EEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHGGHHHH]Dan, mine came with S13WB's, there is no difference. (It was the swapped out coils and inproper LSPV height and master-cylinder that was at issue with mine..the P/O put on a 1" offbrand rather than the correct size).

For my year model there is no difference between the 2 and 4 wheel drive versions as to the braking components, just a bunch of drivetrain missing. *I can very easily convert mine to 4WD should I choose to do so using either a Marlin or Inchworm adapter to fit the case, cv's, driveshafts, and front diff. (All of which are actually sitting at Jeff's shop right now.) We're talking less than a day, 1 day, even if I want to go ahead with the 5 speed. :)

[DHC6twinotter]

[EEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHGGHHHH]Dan, mine came with S13WB's, there is no difference. (It was the swapped out coils and inproper LSPV height and master-cylinder that was at issue with mine..the P/O put on a 1" offbrand rather than the correct size).

Oh ok. I must have read wrong somewhere...thought you had the 12s.



For my year model there is no difference between the 2 and 4 wheel drive versions as to the braking components, just a bunch of drivetrain missing. *I can very easily convert mine to 4WD should I choose to do so using either a Marlin or Inchworm adapter to fit the case, cv's, driveshafts, and front diff. (All of which are actually sitting at Jeff's shop right now.) We're talking less than a day, 1 day, even if I want to go ahead with the 5 speed. :)

Yeah, I noticed it looked pretty easy on mine as well. Even the diff brackets are there, and my center caps say ADD. :D If I decide to go ahead and do a 4wd conversion, I think I'd just swap in a R150 while I'm at it.