Dynamic Tire balancing?

[Albuquerque Jim]

Any experience with Dyna Beads, Air Soft Pellets, and the like?

I am looking into new wheels and tires. I may go with Bead Locks and will use a 35" MT of some sort. I think I'd like to try Air Soft Pellets for balancing; what are your experiences?

[Cheese]

My experience, my OMF's balance decent and are pretty true, but the 37's around them make wheel weights useless.

I tried Equal with my 33's and that was a pain. Never got it good, but those were CRAP steel wheels.

Next plan is Airsoft pellets. I have to be able to get rid of the vibe between 55-60. Oddly it is smooth from 60-75 on the speedo which is 65-90 or so in the real world.

There are suggestions about where to start volume wise on Pirate, just haven't implemented them.

The pellets sound reasonable to me as they are dry, shouldn't take on water and cannot clump like the alternatives. They are also softish so they shouldn't bugger up the wheels.

[Cheese]

And get on this.

I am driving my truck to Kansas in June and I will be hating life if all it does it jiggle boobs for 700 miles each way...

[Albuquerque Jim]

Here is a link to Dyna Bead's site for ounces of weight per tire size. I suppose the same chart would work for Air Soft Pellets.

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/BigTirechart.htm

[AxleIke]

And get on this.

I am driving my truck to Kansas in June and I will be hating life if all it does it jiggle boobs for 700 miles each way...


Yours or hers?

:flipoff:

[Cheese]

That link was interesting Jim, good to have a rule of thumb I guess.

Isaac, don't make me ban you!

[Cebby]

Good thread. The dynabeads ain't cheap, but saving the mounting and balancing cost with beadlocks offsets it nicely.

[Albuquerque Jim]

The Air Soft Pellets are pretty cheap though...

In all seriousness, I think I will put 10 oz of pellets and then have them spin balanced just to see.

[AxleIke]

that is a good site. I think that the airsoft idea is good.

I will follow this, see how it works for you Jim.

[MTL_4runner]

You guys may have seen this article but I'll post it just in case.

Automatic Tire Balancing Using Airsoft Pellets

Category: Tires
Author: Eric
Date: April 22nd, 2005

"For those of us with large tires, 33” or taller, having perfectly balanced tires seems more a fantasy than a reality. Especially if your tires say Interco on the side. As you know, tires are normally balanced by putting them on a special machine which tells the technician where the tire is out of balance and by how much. They will attach weights to the side of your wheel and viola, the tire is fully balanced.

Why Reinvent the Wheel Weight?
So traditional wheel balancing sounds okay, but here is the problem. The larger the tire, the further away from the wheel the tire gets. That means the balancing weights are further from the tread and it requires more weight to balance the tire. Also, a larger tire weighs more overall and potentially could require more counter weights to balance the tire’s greater mass. Add these two things together and there could me a lot of weight on the side of your wheel.

First of all, having 6” of wheel covered with weights is ugly and they can damage the finish on the wheel. Second of all, it’s bound to get knocked off when you come in contact with a rock. It will happen eventually if you drive on rocks. You probably won’t notice until you stop to air your tires up and that weight will be long gone and your tire is now out of balance.

The other problem is tire wear and how it affects tire balance. Tires don’t always wear evenly. Even when they do, the weight distribution can change putting your tire out of balance. The only solution to this is to get your tires re-balanced every 10k miles or do one of the following.

This idea isn’t really new, but the way you apply it has matured quite a bit. The idea is to move the weight as far to the outside of the tire as possible and to make it so the tire is always in perfect balance. The way to do that is to put weight inside the tire which is as far away from the center of the wheel you can get and use some sort of material that can freely move around to naturally balance the tire when it spins.

How it Works
The physics of how/why the free mass inside the tire automatically knows where to go is hard to conceptualize. The best way to understand why this works is to exaggerate the problem. Imagine there is a 5 lb weight fixed to one place on the tire. When you spin that tire to normal high way speeds, it will be so terribly out of balance that the tire would probably hope off the ground with every rotation. The axis of rotation is actually moved away from the center of the wheel toward this extra mass because it’s pulling the whole tire with it as it spins. The free moving balancing weights inside the tire are not affected the same way by these forces. First as you get up to speed, centripetal force will make the balancing weight stick to the inside of the tire. Then the force of the imbalanced weight on the tire will move this balancing weight away from the imbalance. When enough of the mass is opposite of the imbalance, the vibration disappears and the axis that the tire is rotating on returns back to the center.

To give you another example to explain why the balancing weight moves away from the imbalance and balances the system, think about what happens when you accelerate fast in a car. Anything that’s loose moves to the back of the vehicle. This same force is created on an imbalanced spinning tire. The imbalance is jerking the tire sending the free mass inside away from it and the centripital force holds it here.

What to Use
Okay, so we know the theory about why it works, but what do you use for the weight inside your tire? Over the years people have used some pretty strange things from golf balls, steel BBs to water. None of these are very good at balancing your tires. Golf balls have too much mass for each unit so they can’t balance a tire as evenly as using many more less massive weights. BBs work well to evenly balance the tire because they’re small and heavy, but their material is their downfall. Moisture does exist in your tire unless you always fill them with Nitrogen. The BBs will eventually rust and completely disintegrate over time.

http://4x4trailhunters.com/pictures/article_18_rust.jpg
Steel BBs that rusted. Pic courtesy of InnovativeBalancing.com

Water can work, but it is slower to align itself because of its high surface tension. Also, since you wouldn’t use much, as far as volume, the water would have to spread thin and would likely evaporate after a season’s worth of airing down your tires. Other substances like Nu-Mag, Equal, Magnum and other balancing powders are susceptible to clumping as they absorb this same moisture and they're not round, so they don't roll into position quickly.

There are a couple of commercially available products designed just for balancing tires. One company in particular, Innovative Balancing, has developed a product that works very well. They call them Dyna Beads. They are small ceramic balls that can be inserted through the valve stem. Since they are perfectly round, they quickly roll into position and adapt to balancing changes. They will not clump from moisture inside the tire. Since the media is small, they recommend a filtered valve stem so you don’t loose any of the media when air is released.

Compared to other media and bolt on balancers, the Dyna Beads are a bargain. On average, to buy the media, filtered valve cores and the removal tool for four tires, you’re looking at about $60. They claim their beads reduce the operating temperature of the tire and can extend tread life 35%. They have also developed a great chart which you can use to determine how much balancing media you need. Use it here, http://www.innovativebalancing.com/BigTirechart.htm.

Always one to save a buck or two at the expense of some effort, I found Airsoft pellets to be an excellent alternative that has most of the benefits of Dyna Beads and none of the drawbacks of the alternatives. Airsoft pellets are too large to fill through the valve stem and they are less massive per unit, so they’re not as efficient as Dyna Beads, but still very good. They are perfectly round balls of high density plastic which will not clump from moisture or breakdown over time. I ordered 2 KG of pellets online for $26 shipped to my door.

http://4x4trailhunters.com/pictures/article_18_pellets.jpg
1 KG of common Airsoft pellets

Installation (1 hr)
I got creative, but you can use a Hi-Lift jack to unseat the bead of your tires. Simply remove all of the air from the tire by removing the valve stem and place the base of the Hi-Lift right where the bead seats on the tire. Then position the jack underneight something heavy like a sturdy work bench or your rig and begin jacking. Once you get the hange of it, you can do all four in less than an hour. Please be careful, Hi-Lifts are dangerous and mix this with putting a lot of force on an unstable tire, you could get hurt. There are other products like Tyreplyers which are supposed to work well. Using Innovative Balancing’s chart above to determine how much media to use, I dumped the pellets in and reseated the tire. One of the beauties of this system is its okay if you put more than the recommended amounts. In fact, it’s better to go over than under because the extra material will just find a neutral place inside the tire and will not affect the balance.

Results
Now take it out and enjoy tires that are rebalanced every time you drive. I have to get up to about 20 mph for the pellets to stick to the inside of the tire and begin working. It’s at speeds greater than 20 when tires need to be balanced. They will not fall off the tire until a you’re below 5 mph. I can hear the pellets fall off when the window is down, but otherwise, I never notice they are there. My tires have never been balanced and they are worn very unevenly and ride terribly on the road. After using the pellets, the operation was noticeably smoother and quieter. All of the uneven wear has evened out. I’m sure using them from the beginning when the tires are new will yield greater gains than I have. I have yet to confirm the extended tread life claims because that’s impossible to measure. Your driving habbits will influence this a lot. "

So what I get from that is dynabeads balance the best but the airsoft pellets will probably work well for most people.

[MTL_4runner]

I had a few discussion about balancing beads like this previously as well...

Anyway, I had been down at the 2005 World Tire Expo and I spoke to the Presidents of both Equal and Counteract and I have to say I think that Equal seems to be more popular because it is the older product in the market, but that counteract has a better product for a few reasons.

1) Counteract doesn't clump nearly as bad as others do when wet and due to the shape of the particles and also dries more quickly (Counteract did a test against Equal and Magnum and Counteract provided the least resistance when wet....thus it is also most efficiently distributed even when wet).

You can see a comparison of what each looks like here:
http://www.counteractbalancing.com/compare.htm

2) The real secret to the advantage of counteract over Equal is that Counteract creates more static charge than Equal (you guessed it, again, composition and shape). He told me that they are not able to publish this because Equal sued them in the US and got a court order against them such that they are not allowed to use that fact as part of their marketing (but it is a property you can clearly see in the product displays) and can be fined for mentioning it to US citizens (he thought I was a Candadian so he told me ). What this does is to supposedly slow the shifting of the material and reduce the material from having to completely rebalance during acceleration (ie you may feel a momentary shake while it shifts inside as you get up to speed with Equal before it smooths out).

The counteract sales director said he would get me some free samples to try for my truck so I will report back after I see how well it does. He did say that "less is more" when balancing tires and you shouldn't need more than 3-4oz for even large passenger truck tires (that way you get maximum advantage from the static property and little excess material movement) and that should be fine for both on and offroad use. He said that they are working on a product for low profile tires, but he said you should use the "Counteract Balancing Beads - Truck Product" for SUV's, pickups, vans and tractor trailers with normal profile and oversize tires. He said retail it goes for about $13 a bag (comes with a special valve core and step cap too) so not too bad for a set of tires but said you can find it for less from dealers.

Funny part is that both claim to have never been taken up on the performance guarantee to refund the purchase price if you are unhappy with the product. They both also joked that you can use sand or gravel and it does work, but it will eventually wear through your tire and rim....definately ghetto and cheap tho.

[MTL_4runner]

When discussing the effect dampness had on the beads effectiveness...

When I say wet, I just mean damp from condensation which can tend to clump the material and reduce its efficiency. If you use gasses other than regular air this may reduce that problem.

As far as static, I was told by Counteract that it was a good thing and the Equal guy didn't mention it at all. From an engineering standpoint I would think it was good because it may help in the instantaneous situation where your tire is rebalancing itself (such as accel or deccel). Other than that I am not sure of what benefit or detriment it might be.

Counteract claimed to be getting 5-9% more fuel mileage by using their product and as you can imagine I am dying to get a few sample bags and try them in my truck. I know for truck fleets they were even going to a system where if you didn't want to purchase the balancing material outright, they would take 10% of the first year's fuel savings instead (I wish they did that for SUVs too!).....I am sure they make out like bandits on that deal if they are correct.

[MTL_4runner]

Just so people don't get confused....

Radial balance: A heavy spot, stiff portion of the tire or vertical runout problem acting parallel to the tire centerline (typically tire)

Lateral balance: Usually a sideways runout problem (rotor, tire, rim, etc) acting perpendicular to the centerline of the tire

The balancing beads (like Counterbalance and Equal) will only cure a radial balance problem as someone mentioned since it uses centrifugal force to distribute the material and thus would have no way to create any sideways forces which result from lateral balance problems.

[MTL_4runner]

In regards to balancing beads used in semi rigs....

BTW the big rig tires are just a little wider than a normal SUV tire (maybe 2-3 inches max) and a heck of alot taller (diameter-wise), not to mention they weigh about 4.5 times as much (typical passenger tire is about 20-25 lbs while truck tires are 100+ lbs each) which may also affect how the tires balance and what dynamic balance problems occur. The rims are also much taller and can go up to 24.5 inches in diameter. The tires are not flat inside as you guys suggested but the radius is larger due to the larger width of the tire.

Also passenger tires can be retread just like truck tires can but are not done as often because the passenger retread industry got a bad rap due to a couple of retreaders doing poor quality work (and thus now it is heavily regulated but the US DOT) and many considered it not worth the risk to save on the cost (while if you own a fleet, any bit helps). In most cases now a retread can be as good and sometimes even better quality than a new tire (because the casing has already been thoroughly road tested). Most tires are designed to have the casings last 3-4 times as long as the tread will.

[Piett]

I am using air soft pellets to balance my Interco bias ply Swampers.

I bought a few bottles of 0.17g pellets from Walmart (I couldn't find the heavier ones) and added them the last time that I remounted my tires on the beadlocks. I used the same weight as described by the Innovative Balancing table suggests for 38s.

Some spill when you try and pour them in between the bead and wheel, just make sure it isn't too many. When you roll the tire around by itself you can hear the pellets rolling around. I have a couple hundred miles on them since and I don't have any complaints. The ride is decent with out any particularly bad vibrations. Of course it doesn't ride much like a luxury car or a car for that matter. I haven't taken any of the wheels apart yet so I don't know how well the pellets have held up or how much water I have in there now.

Overall, I would do it again.

Geoff

[Cheese]

Jim, don't tell them there is stuff in the tire, just have them balance, or try.

Once you do this, you have kissed off machine balance. Because they move, the machine will usually freak out.

When I had Equal, I went to a different tire place than usual. They came out after an hour telling me some how only one of my tires would balance in a way they thought was tolerable. The other three kept kicking out a different reading each time they were spun.

The other side of this is once you get beadlocks, you are doing all your own tire work too.

[Albuquerque Jim]

I know some guys at discount who wheel. I think they would be cool with trying to balance them.

[Cheese]

They can try, but it hurts more than anything.

You put the tire on the machine, spin it, it says where to add weight, then you spin again. Usually on the again part it is worse than it was before.

I am ready to go in, have them break the back bead, drop some pellets in and call it good.

Time to go airsoft shopping I guess!

[Albuquerque Jim]

I am ready to go in, have them break the back bead, drop some pellets in and call it good.

Time to go airsoft shopping I guess!


I will probably just use pellets from day one and call it good.

[BruceTS]

I just placed an order with Dyna Beads, should be here this week......