Trail Gear Differential Breather Kit [Archive]

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 08:56 AM

Is anyone running the Trail Gear Creeper Breather Kit (http://www.trail-gear.com/diff-breather.html)?

What does everyone else think of this kit? I kind of like the idea. Won't work directly on IFS front diffs, but I like the idea of not having to figure out how and where to run a tube like most diff breathers.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/slosurfer27/4runner/elocker/08-0053-225.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/slosurfer27/4runner/elocker/08-0050-300.jpg

I'm also thinking that I've seen something like this in the hardware store, I'll have to browse the aisles next time I'm there.

troyboy162

02-22-2009, 09:06 AM

that does sound good but the only thing i can see is that it will have some resistance and that will put the diff in states of, ever so slight, pressure and vacuum. the traditional breather i believe has no resistance, but ill be looking in to this now that you posted it. im in the market for one. i went through a deep puddle the other weekend :(

CJM

02-22-2009, 09:12 AM

I remember a discussion about it awhile back that basically stated that it worked ok but how does air escape from it properly without letting water in?

4runnerchevy

02-22-2009, 09:14 AM

Air doesn't escape it just expands and contracts like a bellows.

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 09:16 AM

I remember a discussion about it awhile back that basically stated that it worked ok but how does air escape from it properly without letting water in?

I believe that it is air/watertight, and it is operating on the assumption that it has enough available volume to expand and take the expansion of heated air.

Yep, like Kevin said. :D

CJM

02-22-2009, 09:22 AM

I see, I had figured as much.

I do recall that the basic consensus was that it maybe had enough volume to expand but people were leery of it. Hey, whats the worst that happens, gear oil heats up and breaks down?

4runnerchevy

02-22-2009, 09:24 AM

Hey, whats the worst that happens, gear oil heats up and breaks down?

And blows gear oil out your seals.

CJM

02-22-2009, 09:39 AM

And blows gear oil out your seals.

That would be bad, very, very bad..

4runnerchevy

02-22-2009, 09:56 AM

I personally would not trust it. I am a simpleton and the old tried and true method, works for me. Just run a hose.

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 10:12 AM

I wouldn't be worried about it heating up your gear oil. That is not what the breather valve is for, it is to let the expanding heated air out (not for temp. regulation) but because otherwise it builds up pressure and like Kevin said it will make your oil seals leak.

So as long as this had enough volume and was pliable enough, it shouldn't be a problem. I'm sure some engineer/physicist could easily tell you what the volume of X amount of air is at Y degrees and then what the volume is at Z degrees.

4runnerchevy

02-22-2009, 10:30 AM

I have seen race rigs that fill the diff to the top and then run a hose to an expansion chamber (with a breather on it). This allows the diff to run a little cooler, and keeps all the bearings from being starved.

Seanz0rz

02-22-2009, 10:38 AM

i think i paid like 3 or 4 bucks for all the hose i needed, already had hose clamps, and the parts from toyota were cheap too (and if your breather currently still works, you dont have to buy that either!) im pretty sure i didnt spend 20 bucks on the whole thing, which is how much that TG bling is. yeah theres a certain cool factor that goes with the bellows, but my hose is a tried and trued approach, if it gets hit by a rock, no big deal. im not sure how sturdy those bellows are...

my hose is just ziptied to the upper link, along with my elocker harness. enough room around the joints to flex and stretch, and then runs up to the gas filler cover (not actually in the door, i hated how it looked and it would have upset me every time i filled up). since i have the snorkel now, i might choose to raise it even further, but im not sure about that.

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 10:56 AM

I don't think I would call it "bling" considering the Marlin kit costs $29
http://marlincrawler.com/axle/front-axle-parts/axle-breather-kit
That, and something that ugly as a bellow couldn't be considered "bling".

I doubt it will get tagged by a rock there, but a 4ft.+ line has a lot more chances of getting hit, cut, kinked, etc....

I wouldn't call it bling, because it goes for the KISS approach. That is, if it works. Which is what this discussion is all about.

Plus if it works, I'm sure the hardware store has something similar. :D

Scuba

02-22-2009, 11:07 AM

Ok well on the hose topic, im still skeptical about the fact when you flex out the rear axle, like idk, thats just me thinking youd have to get it long enough, then you just got a bunch of hose just chillin, and who wants that..:bling:

Seanz0rz

02-22-2009, 11:08 AM

why is marlin's kit 30 bucks?!?! and its only 4 feet of hose. i remember using more like 6 to get it to the filler neck cover.(im sure i could have used less if i didnt tie it to the link and just ran it straight up to the frame.)

id have to pull out an old chem text book to see what the expansion of air is from 32 degrees to say... 250 degrees (how hot does a diff get?) and see what the increase in volume is with constant pressure. its been a good 7 years since i touched that kind of chemistry stuff (highschool baby!)

i bet the bellows work. my advise on them is compressing it when you install it, while the axle is cold. that way it has the most room to expand when the axle heats up. personally, i see nothing wrong with using the stock breather. for me the relocation was due mainly to mine getting clogged with dust from big bear and blowing out both left and right axle seals, as well as the (admittedly weak) rtv seal around the 3rd. i actually disassembled my stock breather, took out the spring and the seal (spring holds the seal closed unless there is pressure coming out of the diff.) and ziptied a shop towel to what was now just a threaded union. that at least stopped it from gushing so bad, and lasted till i could pull the seals and replace, and replace the diff breather.

Seanz0rz

02-22-2009, 11:10 AM

steve, my hose is zip tied to the upper link. for tacomas, you could just run it along side the rear brake line.

you already have a bunch of brake line that curves around out back so when you do flex, you dont snag the line (i think i have enough to drop the whole axle to the limits of the shocks and still not pull on it)

CJM

02-22-2009, 11:20 AM

I honestly think the best thing of all that would work is the hose, it cant get really bound of nicked to much unless you route it stupidly. I have mine go up into where the drivers side taillight is, if im ever that deep well im sol anyways.

Scuba

02-22-2009, 11:58 AM

Sounds good sean, ill take a look at it when I get here see what I can do...:bling:

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 12:15 PM

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the hose system was flawed. I know it works, it was more of if this works, it is simpler. (and I hate routing stuff if I don't have to :D)

Sean, I was thinking the same thing of compressing it when installing it would give you the most volume to expanding heated gas. Unless the ambient temp was 100* when you installed it, then you might want to not compress it all the way. :)

Sean the only reason I can see for the marlin one being that much is that it has a ball valve (not really sure why you would need that anyways). I agree I thought 4 ft was a little short for the rear axle.

I'm not going out and getting one right now, but I saw these awhile ago and just wondered how well they worked. I may try to go to the hardware store later and see what I can find. :)

4x4mike

02-22-2009, 01:24 PM

I was going to get one of those when I got my 4runner but decided not to. For one the factory one has done it's job really well. For 2 there are other options than the TG and Marlin ones. Go to your polaris dealer and get one of those bellow tube things. I used to have a part number for them but never got around to getting them, I think they were $3 each. Search on Pirate as it's been covered on there, I think I may have started one of the posts actually. I have heard that the hose can clog due to oil drying inside of it and crystallizing. As a result you blow an oil seal shortly thereafter. I've already replaced my oil seals and brakes and don't want to again for awhile.

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 01:51 PM

Mike, good to know. :thumbup:
Here's geek thread about the ATV ones (I wonder if these are bigger than the ATV ones?)
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=429527&highlight=breather

How are they getting oil up in there?

I agree, my stock ones have always worked fine (until this used geared front diff I got, but I can't use that bellows thing anyways)

micga7

02-22-2009, 04:19 PM

i wanted to know if i went though some high water today the rear diff breather might have gone under water and don't have the mod yet. do you think i got to change the fluid i just change it about 3000 miles ago.

Seanz0rz

02-22-2009, 04:49 PM

take the fill plug out, and put your little finger in there. see if the oil looks clean. unfortunately the oil will travel to the top of the water, so any water would be at the bottom. you could try and drain a little and check the condition, if its watery, replace the fluid.

the diff breather should seal when water hits it, but should and does are two different things.

micga7

02-22-2009, 04:55 PM

can it cause a lot of damage or will it burn up if it's only a little.

CJM

02-22-2009, 05:10 PM

A little is no big deal, you get that over the course of the years by driving thru very heavy rain and slightly flooded roads depending on conditions.

However its not good if most of it is water and no oil.

Robinhood4x4

02-22-2009, 06:47 PM

The advantage of the bellows is when you flop or roll, you don't dump all your diff oil all over the trail. This is why they're used on buggies a lot.

The problem with squeezing out the air before hooking up the bellows is when you dunk your hot diff into a cold puddle, you can potentially suck in water through the seals since there's negative pressure in the housing.

Chris, you can still used the bellows with the front diff, you just need to hook up a short hose to remotely mount the bellows.

slosurfer

02-22-2009, 06:56 PM

Yeah, Steve, I was thinking the same thing, a short hose and mount it. Actually my front is the one that needs to be done first. It is acting up and one of the oil seals is leaking. :chair: I don't see why I can't rip the cap and spring off and hose clamp a hose right to what's left of the breather valve. It's already fubar'd so I won't be reusing it.

That makes sense about the negative pressure.

Robinhood4x4

02-22-2009, 07:50 PM

That's exactly what I do with my breathers. Just clamp right to the nub left over.

I got the negative pressure thing from Roger Brown and it makes sense from an engineering standpoint too.

Seanz0rz

02-23-2009, 11:03 AM

the negative pressure thing makes sense, im just not sure that it would pull hard enough to suck water in past the seals.

not having felt the material they are made out of, i worry that the bellow material would decompose after a few years of being sandblasted out here in the california deserts. i see no reason to use the traditional hose method, especially when it can be done for less than the cost of this. as for losing oil when you roll. i think losing diff oil is the LEAST of our worries when we roll our rigs. for most of us, they are our daily drivers, or at least a prized member of the family.

the cons (price, questionable durability, limited amount of volume change, etc) out weigh the pros (effectively a sealed rear axle, unlimited fording depth, compact and easy to install), at least as far as im concerned.

slosurfer

02-23-2009, 03:02 PM

How would it decompose any faster than your hose?

Also, last I checked, the top of my axle doesn't get sandblasted. :hillbill: I'm sure it's just as durable as any of the other lines/hoses coming off the rear axle, especially considering the placement of it, on top right near the center. Now, if it was out by the shocks, I could see an issue.

From what I'm finding out, and like Mike said, the idea came from ATV's. So it's a proven system that works. Now whether or not one that is sized for an ATV axle will work on ours, seems a little iffy. But the bellows "breather" as a system is proven.