Photo radar

[paddlenbike]

Let me start by saying I have absolutely no objection to red light cameras. If you run a red light there is a good chance you will injure or kill someone. But these photo radar installations are going too far. These things were first used in Europe and even they admit their use has not resulted in statistically safer driving or fewer accidents. No states here in the U.S. make that claim either, they are solely for generating revenue.

I see Arizona is using photo radar more than anyone. Have any of you received one of these tickets? Are the photo stations obvious? Good thing I drive an SUV, because I could see getting a lot of desert highway tickets.

[Obi..]

"..right of the accused to confront the party issuing said ticket."

Have 'em haul the damned trailer in I say! There's plenty of law pending against this and other forms of photo enforcement because ultimately it involves the driver making a decision, that a machine cannot interpret or debate.

Know the law and pending regulations if you do not have any doubts of your innocence. If not, fight it anyhow and hope for a reduced fine.

I was cut off by a deer running through my lane and the intersection locally, while trying to recover I wasn't the least bit paying attention to the light, but..it had gone to yellow while I was slamming on the brakes and I just rolled the second crosswalk line as it went red.

Not to mention the two different camera's flashes completely and temporarily blinded me while still trying to safely recover!!

They are as much a nuisance as a help. The local kids take their plates off, throw on masks and do donuts in the intersections, think they have ever been caught? Nope! (*Hmmm, James Bond/Transporter Flip Plates? :D )

..all the other drivers were, and it was motion captured, as is now required for all equipment. I was let-off when I requested the full footage and the subpoena of witnesses.

The judge simply could not make a judgement without any doubt that I was not making all others around me fully aware of the situation, made a safe and necessary defensive maneuver, and the other drivers made their choice to allow me to safely recover and make it through the intersection in light of the circumstances. *What were they to do, proceed and get hit? Would they have not helped if I had hit the deer (or it hit me)?


Lesson, do not go by just one, or many pictures if at fault, go by the motion capture, ad if there is no motion capture, or back up by another camera with motion capture you can push for dismissal in light of circumstancial and unwitnessed evidence.

As for the Arizona part, this why most of the footage notes I saw were from an Arizona entity.

*There's always these guys to help though, I'd love to buy each a beer!

re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T43LtGNFLPw

[4x4mike]

I heard MLM say he got a few in AZ when he was there last month. I think he said he was in a rental car and that as long as he isn't an AZ resident they can't go after him. Mcfarland had the same experience in Germany in that rented beemer. It would kind of suck considering half the people that get a ticket won't pay it.

[Obi..]

FWIW*I was in a rental when I had the deer incident, they found me just fine...wanna see the look on my face! :rofl:

Scared and Pissed-Off!!

[mastacox]

Let me start by saying I have absolutely no objection to red light cameras. If you run a red light there is a good chance you will injure or kill someone. But these photo radar installations are going too far. These things were first used in Europe and even they admit their use has not resulted in statistically safer driving or fewer accidents. No states here in the U.S. make that claim either, they are solely for generating revenue.


I think it has actually been shown that there is a statistical increase in traffic collisions at intersections when a red light camera is added. This is because people slam on their brakes for fear of "running the yellow" and get rear-ended.

[DHC6twinotter]

I see Arizona is using photo radar more than anyone. Have any of you received one of these tickets? Are the photo stations obvious? Good thing I drive an SUV, because I could see getting a lot of desert highway tickets.


Running red lights is really bad around here. I've seen 5 or 6 people go through an intersection once the light has turned red. I think the mentality is that if somebody is close in front of you, then it is ok to go. :confused:

But to answer your question, I've never received a ticket from one of these cameras. The cameras here are really big beige boxes mounted on poles and are very obvious. There are also signs at the intersections that say "Red Light Camera Enforced".

Back in Charlotte, they used to have a mobile E-150 van trying to catch speeders. It would clock the speed, take a picture, and send the ticket to you. They got rid of it after a few years I think. :D



I think it has actually been shown that there is a statistical increase in traffic collisions at intersections when a red light camera is added. This is because people slam on their brakes for fear of "running the yellow" and get rear-ended.


Yep, that was a big reason why they stopped using the red light cameras around here.

[paddlenbike]

Here's how the Arizona people are dealing with the situation...post-it notes!
http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/pix/postit.jpg

Norcal--I have read a bit about the issues you describe. It sounds like the legality is a complete gray area right now.

[Terracoma]

I see Arizona is using photo radar more than anyone. Have any of you received one of these tickets? Are the photo stations obvious? Good thing I drive an SUV, because I could see getting a lot of desert highway tickets.


I have driven along I-10 through Tuscon and Phoenix a lot in the last three months, but have received no citations... This guy (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9697), however, forgot to slow down and got nailed. Old thread, photos are gone, but you could clearly see the driver's face and the make, model, color, and license plate number of the vehicle.

The camera installations are very obvious, and are clearly marked by yellow, diamond-shaped signs on both sides of the interstate prior to passing them. In fact, drivers get two sets of warning signs that they are approaching a photo enforcement zone. The first at 1/4 of a mile, the second at 300 feet... However, I have passed a mobile photo enforcement vehicle in and around Phoenix (a Ford Escape, I believe) that only carries one set of warning signs, but is covered in reflective Scotchlite striping and is usually parked on the shoulder in a conspicuous location... FWIW, it seemed to me that the vast majority of people drive through Tuscon and Phoenix at or near the speed limit and traffic is very civilized during the day, but I have seen a few folks who drive 75+ until they see the signs, slow down to 65 for the cameras, then race back up to 75+ again.

[corax]

I got a ticket from the 101 on the east side of PHX, my best advice for these tickets:
IGNORE THEM
it is an illegal ticket. In Cali it is illegal to ue photo radar for speed enforcement. In AZ, you have a right to "personal service" of the ticket, since the ticket is delivered via USPS, it is illegal. However, if you respond to the ticket, you automatically waive your right to "personal service" and the ticket becomes valid. After x number of days the ticket must be dismissed and it goes away, however depending on how convenient it is, the court may send someone to your house to "serve" the ticket. It you're not home and they leave the ticket on your porch, that is not "personal service" - neither is leaving it with someone who they have not positively identified as being at least immediate family.

from this site http://www.radarbusters.com/beattickets4article.cfm :

Ignoring The Letter
When you receive a general post letter advising you of your photo radar citation, you have the option of just ignoring it. All states have guidelines on how the citation must be served.

Arizona Revised Statues, 28-1593 gives the state the following procedures on how they must serve you with the citation. They must issue the citation to you, in accordance with the Rules of Civil Procedure. The Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure (Rule 4(d) and 4(g)) state that they must send the citation via certified mail with a "return receipt" and that it be delivered to the addressee only. As a practical matter, it is also common for a process server to deliver the citation and that delivery can be served to you or a competent member of your household. Also, a return must be filed with the court. The "return" is basically proof that you accepted summons.

Civil Procedure (Rule 4.1(c)) also allows service if you can waive your right of personal summons. You just need to sign the appropriate form, and that form becomes the return. In effect, your payment or appearance at the courthouse is your acceptance of service. By not responding to the letter, you are refusing acceptance of service.

Time limit for service - statute of limitations
According to the Rules of Civil Procedure (4(i)), if the court fails to effectively summon you within 120 days of filing, it allows the court to dismiss without prejudice (which means that it can be refilled) or direct that service be effected within a specified time; provided that if plaintiff shows good cause for the failure, the court shall extend the time for service for an appropriate period.

The Civil Procedure Code is in place to protect citizens in all civil cases. It is part of our justice system designed to protect everyone's rights. It is in place for all civil matters. The loophole cannot be closed without affecting the entire civil justice system. This means it will probably be in place for some time, at least long enough for you to take care of your citation.

If these conditions have not been met, you have not been served legally. The government agency you are dealing with has the option of sending you registered mail, or having you served personally. If they send you registered mail you are not required to accept the letter.

You do not have to tell anyone your name just because they ask. Also, you are not required to accept certified or registered mail. Simply tell the postman you do not want to accept service of the letter without telling him or her who you are.

If they cannot get you by registered mail, the agency may try to serve you with a civil process server. If a process server is sent to your home, the situation becomes a little stickier. The service can be left with any person over 14 years of age in the house and service is valid.

The process server can find out if mail has been received at your address for you and use that to complete the service. Once you are legally served you must appear in court, end of story. The other pitfall to this is that the government will likely charge you for the cost of the process server. (Remember, it is a money making proposition for the government.)

In 2001, over 30% of the photo radar citations issued by the city of Scottsdale, Arizona went unanswered. In late January of 1999, the Scottsdale City Court hired process servers to serve these unanswered notices. The Paradise Valley City Court has now started using the services of a collection agency to serve and collect on unanswered photo radar citations.

To protect yourself from their service, instruct all members of your household not to answer the door if a stranger is standing outside. Also, if a stranger starts approaching you or any member of your household while outside of your home, have them walk away and not answer any questions if asked.

There have been cases where the process server just stuffs the summons under your door and they leave, marking the summons served. If this happens to you, you will then have to argue to the court that the service was invalid. However, you may want to wait till after the 120 days of your violation for this hearing.

[paddlenbike]

Very interesting. The thing that really caught my attention is the state charging you for the process server, as this can be an expensive proposition. If they serve you because they failed to contact you via the legal means, then charge you for it, that is definately not right.

Just to be clear, I have not recieved one of these tickets. I just read the article and thought it was a pretty sneaky way to generate revenue.

[corax]

I just read the article and thought it was a pretty sneaky way to generate revenue.


. . . . especially repugnant since a significant portion of the ticket goes to a private company for "upkeep of the system"

[4x4mike]

But to answer your question, I've never received a ticket from one of these cameras. The cameras here are really big beige boxes mounted on poles and are very obvious. There are also signs at the intersections that say "Red Light Camera Enforced".

Back in Charlotte, they used to have a mobile E-150 van trying to catch speeders. It would clock the speed, take a picture, and send the ticket to you. They got rid of it after a few years I think.

It's pretty obvious here in Sacramento too. There are even intersections that don't have a camera but have a sign and have been that way for over a year.

My mom has gotten a red light ticket. Her excuse is that there was a cement truck tailgating her and she didn't want to get rear ended. About a week later she got the ticket in the mail, sure enough there was the truck, so close you couldn't read the plate. She told her story the the judge, he didn't care and made her pay the fine.

I've seen a mobile van in central CA. I think they come out during holiday weekends.

[neliconcept]

bingo Corax hit the nail on the head

I got one while in colorado, the van is parked on the side of the road, and i got the ticket sent to my house in South Carolina, my mom then preceded to ship it to me,

I went to court and told them to physically #### themselves over this, and they told me sure, we cant do a thing about it anyways, btw what is your address here in colorado.. my answer.. none of your damn business. they could have served it to me in person.

i got 4 more of those, one was 300 dollars, i did 60 in a 30, the others were like 40 and 50 bucks as i was doing 4 or so over the speed, lame as hell...

[wifesaysimadumbass]

burn em and thrash em if you see them... we need to start screwing these things up so it becomes not profitable

[Robinhood4x4]

Everyone here hates them, even my cop friend. A few people at work just ignored the tickets they got and if the courts don't serve them, then the tickets get dismissed. My cop friend even says to do that. He also says to have your car registered in the name of your spouse and when you get the ticket, say it's not you. They cannot force you to tell them who it is.

Arizona does justify them by saying they make the streets safer. Nobody believes it. They always spout the statistics on the news but one time they had a statistic that was physically impossible.

[CJM]

Destroy them.. Nice .22 rifle with sub sonic ammo works well.

[4x4mike]

Destroy them.. Nice .22 rifle with sub sonic ammo works well.

I think a .22 MAG would do best.

[CJM]

I think a .22 MAG would do best.


to loud..

[wifesaysimadumbass]

can of spray paint on the lens