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Seanz0rz
05-05-2009, 06:49 PM
I've had some questions posed to me concerning my plastic projects. i have probably a few thousand hours of research into the subjects, and heres a quick run down of what ive learned:

know your plastic! its easy to say something is made of plastic, but what kind? most interior pieces in our trucks are a strange concoction, but luckily it will be stamped on the back of every piece what it is. most other items will tell you what they are, with a letter code in brackets like this: >ABS< or >PE< or sometimes the recycle triangle with the abbreviation underneath.

some examples of uses of common plastics:
ABS - alot of consumer electronics housings. ive sourced scrap abs plastic from old routers, mice, keyboards, VCR's, etc. also, you can find abs plastic in pipe and fitting form at your local home center. finding sheets requires finding a plastics specialty store, or somewhere online.

PVC - polyvinylchloride is often found as white water pipe at home depot. other thing are made of it, but not terribly common for our purposes.

acrylic - acrylic, often found in the glass section of home depot, is the most widely available in sheet form. commonly known as plexiglass and lexan. very useful plastic!

PE - both low density (LD) and high density (HD) PE, or polyethylene are by far the most common plastics in our households. everything from ketchup bottles to zip lock bags are a form of PE. they are both incredibly resistant to solvents, and are relatively inert, making them perfect for food storage.

PP - much like PE, polypropylene is relatively inert and resistant to most solvents. both PP and PE will often have a waxy feel to them, depending on their manufacturing process.

special note: My research was all based around the plastic that makes up a 3rd gen's center dash bezel. this is >PPE+PS<. PPE is much like PP and PE, and gives the plastic its waxy feel. however, the PS, or polystyrene, component, allowed me to adhere ABS to it. without this PS component, i would have been dead in the water.

next, find an appropriate solvent for your plastic. generally speaking, acetone and MEK will work for just about anything, except PE and PP. Acetone will evaporate faster than MEK, so take that into account for your project. typically acetone is the better choice, and by no means is it an instant cure time. never mix the two solvents!

we use these facts to our advantage to make glue and shallow fill material. for me, this means making "sludge." sludge is chips or shavings of your plastic of choice, dissolved in your solvent of choice. generally, you should always try to match your sludge material to the plastic your working on. the ideal consistency is up to you. what works best for me is the consistency of honey at a cool room temperature or so. the smaller the pieces going into the sludge, the quicker they will dissolve. now for a vessel. glass is always an option, but it is very difficult to apply this material from a glass jar. using our knowledge of solvents, we see that PP and PE are perfect containers for this material. personally, i use a plastic bottle i found at walmart in the cookware section. this one is clear and comes with a cap, they also have red and yellow ones for ketchup and mustard, but those lack caps. this bottle is perfect, and i have a few extras lying around for trying out different consistencies and solvents. i have also experimented with poking a very small hole in a quart size ziplock and using it like a pastry bag. both work well, but i feel i have much more control with the bottle.

this sludge works as a glue and filler. the acetone in the sludge will actually work to dissolve the plastic its applied to, and once evaporated off, will leave one solid piece of plastic, as opposed to 2 pieces joined with an epoxy or glue. this becomes an extremely strong joint.

i get my plastic sheets from a local supplier, S&W Plastics in San Bernardino, CA. you can order it online from McMaster-Carr, and other places. i pay about 2.25/square foot.

to cut plastics, i am using a bandsaw with a fine tooth scroll blade on it. you can also cut it with a razor knife, although i would recommend against it. a jig saw or any saw with a fine tooth on it will work great. you can also cut it with a dremel, though it is very difficult to keep the plastic from melting. of course the usual warnings apply, in addition to this: cutting generates friction, which in turn generates heat. molten plastic burns, bad. so be careful!

a great resource for research: http://www.ides.com/plastics/default.htm

plastic is SO easy to work with! so much easier than metal! please, if you have any questions about ANYTHING concerning plastics, please post it here and i will do my best to answer it, or point you in the direction of someone or somewhere that can help you. plastics are an amazing material, but can seem very intimidating. with a little basic knowledge of the plastics most common to us, you will find there are so many opportunities to do wonderful and creative things with the material.

//hopefully this will become wiki-ized someday

Seanz0rz
05-05-2009, 07:05 PM
here is a link to the thread that spawned this, and some of my work:
http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=7652.msg70406#msg70406

DHC6twinotter
05-05-2009, 07:13 PM
This is fantastic! Thanks Sean! :thumbup:

slosurfer
05-05-2009, 08:29 PM
Wow, SEan, thanks for the knowledge! :thumbup:

corax
05-06-2009, 03:46 AM
yeah, good stuff. Thanks :D

Bob98SR5
05-06-2009, 07:39 PM
sean, this is great info. thansk for the research.

Seanz0rz
05-06-2009, 07:53 PM
so heres a bit of an addition, highlighting the inability to work with some plastics using the solvent method.

Good Times (lance) has a broken headlight mounting tab:
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/plastics/IMG_0745.jpg

so i went about seeing if i could fix it. my research into the plastic said no, but i thought i might have some luck.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/plastics/IMG_0746.jpg

i didnt. once dry enough to hold itself, i made a small tug on the piece, and the formerly liquid plastic completely seperated from the tab. the plastic that makes up that housing, PP-T20, might as well be teflon. (incidently, teflon is a special kind of PE) it is a dirative of the plastic making up the squeeze bottle i use as a container, so of course it isnt going to melt with the solvent. i hoped to at least to achieve a mechanical bond, and i did to some degree, but not enough to stand up to the riggers of high speed desert running and bumpy rock crawling.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/plastics/IMG_0747.jpg

the only way to fuse this kind of plastic is using heat. ive had very limited experience welding plastics together, and didnt want to mess up an expensive headlamp housing with a torch. the only surfaces the sludge actually stuck to were because of mechanical adhesion. no chemical reaction had taken place.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/plastics/IMG_0750.jpg

DHC6twinotter
05-06-2009, 08:02 PM
Sean, if I were to build a box using an aluminum frame and some sort of plastic sheet (maybe about 1/4" thick) for the sides, what kind of sheet would you recommend based on cost and strength? I know we talked briefly about this in chat a while ago, but I can't remember what you suggested.



...and didnt want to mess up an expensive headlamp housing with a torch.


I'd like to be there for that! :D

Bob98SR5
05-06-2009, 08:03 PM
if space allows, I would cut some appropriately thick metal, make a bracket on both sides, and use blind rivets to hold in place. on the underside of the metal, I'd use a generous supply of your adhesive---whatever kind that might be

lance has a rivet gun.

sean: what are you using for the cupholder itself? I need to make one for the Benz. I dont want to just cut out holes. I want soemthing to contain the liquid.

Seanz0rz
05-07-2009, 12:05 AM
Sean, if I were to build a box using an aluminum frame and some sort of plastic sheet (maybe about 1/4" thick) for the sides, what kind of sheet would you recommend based on cost and strength? I know we talked briefly about this in chat a while ago, but I can't remember what you suggested.

well that depends on the dimensions of the box and its intended use. small boxes id recommend abs or acrylic. larger i would recommend HDPE

Seanz0rz
05-07-2009, 12:07 AM
sean: what are you using for the cupholder itself? I need to make one for the Benz. I dont want to just cut out holes. I want soemthing to contain the liquid.


my actual cup holders will be a piece of pipe with a cut to fit cap made of sheet (not a glue on cap)

im still trying to find pipe with an inside diameter of 2.75" or there abouts, i havent had time to go to the hardware store. i will let you know what i find. if you need some help with your benz console, let me know, ive managed to learn alot over the last few years about console design...

DHC6twinotter
05-07-2009, 08:33 AM
well that depends on the dimensions of the box and its intended use. small boxes id recommend abs or acrylic. larger i would recommend HDPE


Sweet! I'd like to eventually learn how to tig weld, so I figured maybe I'd build a box with drawers for the rear of the 4Runner. This thread got me thinking about using some plastic sheets for the sides. :D

4runnerchevy
05-08-2009, 07:27 AM
I like this, thanks Sean. What about plastic glues that achieve a chemical bond. I use a Loctite product at work (I don't remember its name), but it does well with ABS, and other plastics. ?

I have some ducting for my Chevy motor, that has been worn through by a belt. I only use this ducting for smog, but I would like to fix it for real. I believe its ABS, should I weld a piece in or use the glue ?

Seanz0rz
05-08-2009, 10:43 AM
The common glue for abs plastic is very similar to the sludge method, but it's dry time is in the single digit seconds. The sludge affords several minutes before it really starts to set andthe pieces can be repositioned. It is also great at filling gaps.

I'm interested in that locktite product. Please pass on the name when you can. It likely slightly dissolves the surface to achieve the bond. The good thing about sludge, it will be a solid piece of abs through the entire joint ( much like welding metal as opposed to epoxying it together.)

surf4runner
05-08-2009, 11:35 AM
ive used a 2 part epoxy(locktite???) on ABS w/excellent results.

ABS also takes well to 'welding' (melting)plastic rods to repair it. can be sanded and filled before paint.
ive had this done to a MC fairing... more than once :shake:

4runnerchevy
05-08-2009, 11:56 AM
We are out of the stuff at work. I am gonna use another Loctite Urethane Adhesive which seems to work really well on plastic radiators. Loctite U-05FL Hysol, 5 min, bonds anything, highly flexible, high shear strength. Its used in a small gun with a 1 time use mixing nozzle. For what I am doing silicone would probably work.

I'll still see if we have some empty bottle of the other product, the plastic stuff.

mastacox
05-08-2009, 04:28 PM
acrylic - acrylic, often found in the glass section of home depot, is the most widely available in sheet form. commonly known as plexiglass and lexan. very useful plastic!


Acrylic is the common shortening of polymethyl methacrylate [PMMA] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate) a.k.a. Plexiglass or Lucite. However, Lexan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexan) is completely different material, despite the fact that they are both "clear plastics."


Lexan (LEXAN) is a registered trademark for SABIC Innovative Plastics' (formerly General Electric Plastics) brand of highly durable polycarbonate resin thermoplastic intended to replace traditional glass and Plexiglas where the need for strength and impact resistance justifies its higher cost. It is a polycarbonate polymer produced by reacting Bisphenol A with carbonyl chloride, also known as phosgene.

I have made mechanical designs with Lexan due to the fact that it is easy to machine and does not flake or chip as easily as acrylics. Plexiglass is more difficult to work with, easier to scratch, and chips and flakes terribly when being machined. Additionally, Lexan is tougher, and is the material commonly used as bullet/explosion proof protection, such as in Mythbusters.

Seanz0rz
05-08-2009, 06:41 PM
thank you for the clarification!!! i was thinking lucite when i wrote it, but put lexan by mistake and didnt even catch it.

corax
05-08-2009, 06:42 PM
So Sean, what type of plastic does not go all Gooey with acetone in it? I love the info & think it could seriously help reform my p/u bushwacker flares to fit the 'runner, but every bottle I've ever put acetone into gets all deformed on me . . . you mentioned ketchup bottles? how are they marked?

Seanz0rz
05-08-2009, 07:06 PM
any bottle with PP or PE on the bottom. walmart sells these really cool bottles, like the one pictured here:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/hamiltoncomputers/interior/IMG_0862.jpg

i cant find it on their website, but its in the kitchen stuff with like the picnic stuff, its next to the red and yellow bottles for ketchup and mustard, has an item# 50232 and is made by Bradshaw International, if that helps. i guess normal people would use it for like a home made salad dressing or something. ive used my clean one to wash stuff out of my eyes a number of times!

Bob98SR5
05-13-2009, 09:52 PM
sean,

thanks for the advice and offer to help. i just saw your cupholder pics. it looks very close to what i had envisioned, but not using abs pipe. ill be following your thread closely

Seanz0rz
05-13-2009, 10:24 PM
what would you use besides abs pipe? im just curious. i thought about using sheet heated up and wrapped around a form, but buying pre-made cylinders sounded like alot less work.

Cabin2N
05-19-2009, 11:37 AM
Sean, check out TAP Plastics Poly-Weld, http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=457& and video, http://www.tapplastics.com/info/video_detail.php?vid=21&format=quicktime&. Cool stuff.

Seanz0rz
05-19-2009, 12:24 PM
hey thanks! when i was researching for Lance's headlight housing, i found 3M made a similar adhesive, but it required the gun, another 40 or so dollars, which made it prohibitively expensive. maybe ill have to place an order for this stuff. thanks!

CJM
05-19-2009, 05:24 PM
That glue stuff looks awesome..

slosurfer
05-19-2009, 05:50 PM
After watching that video, I want to go glue some shit now! :laugh: How funny would it be to glue someones plastic water jugs together on a camping trip. :laugh: