Why we are screwed

[oly884]

Just a few links to share with you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aqMTD5UFmU Can anyone imagine if kids did this with GW?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/24/acorn-sues-bretibart-pimp-hooker-duo/ Are you serious???

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6211858/HSBC-bids-farewell-to-dollar-supremacy.html Wonderful, of course, it had nothing to do with any of the bailouts, right? right? (yes, I know GW had a bailout too, so don't even bother saying I'm only attacking the 'mighty one')

Special thanks to our federal government for not listening to us. What I am afraid of, is this: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090924/D9ATL1BO0.html

This is how every right you know and love will disappear, one crazy person driven even crazier because of this government.






Anyone see V for Vendetta? :headscratch:

[oly884]

Oh, and disclaimer:

*Perhaps we are not screwed, but until we as citizens of this country can actually join together and not follow our R's and our D's, we will forever be spiraling downward.

Sure, we all have our differences, but the only differences that would ever make me disagree with someone is someone who does not believe in the Constitution as it stands today. I feel that for a long time we've had presidents that erode one part or another of the constitution and we get caught up in political sides instead of focusing on the issue itself.

So I say this, stand by your values. If GW spending us to oblivion pissed you off, then there is no reason you shouldn't be pissed off at Obama, the same goes the other way. If you believe in free speech, then you should accept that those protesting this president have every right to do so, even if you disagree. If ANY single thing you've seen that Obama has done that you may agree with, ask how you would feel if George Bush did that, or any other republican. If you feel differently, then you need to do some serious, and I mean very serious thinking about where your values stand.

Values people, we must focus on VALUES. No more sacrificing your values because your 'guy' is in office. You hold each and every politician to the exact same level regardless of whether it's an R, D, or I behind their name.

I've kept quiet on politics recently because I just couldn't deal with anymore. The hypocrisy on both sides has grown to epic proportions, the media is a pile of dog sh... crap, and no one seems to want to discuss things anymore.

[oly884]

And, if you disagree with me, I encourage you to explain your position(s). It'd be nice to start out with whether you feel the Constitution of the United States is valid, then depending on your answer, explain whether what Obama is doing is Constitutional or not and how it is different or the same as previous presidents.

Keep in mind that I'm looking for a civil debate, not that I expect things to go south here, but I don't want to hear name calling or things like that.

[Crinale]

i honestly, have been so out of the loop recently because i dont keep up with the current events that im not sure where my position is... but from the stuff i do see/hear/read from Obama, my tentative position is very similar to yours... This guy seems to be sending our country in a exponentially increasing in speed downward spiral... its gonna take a lot of work to fix what he has done...

[oly884]

i honestly, have been so out of the loop recently because i dont keep up with the current events that im not sure where my position is... but from the stuff i do see/hear/read from Obama, my tentative position is very similar to yours... This guy seems to be sending our country in a exponentially increasing in speed downward spiral... its gonna take a lot of work to fix what he has done...


http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html

Take that test to find out where you're at. Me, I'm just about as libertarian as you get.

Where does Obama lie? Statist, plain and simple. Same with GW. Both may have a bit of a left or right lean to them, but they are both statists.

Here's the definition:

Statists want government to have a great deal of power over the
economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether
economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in
today's world. Statists tend to distrust the free market, support
high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose
diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.

[04 Rocko Taco]

According to your quiz there David, I am 60/100 personal/economic, which also drops me in the libertarian group, but pretty far to the right also.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here David. We have to, as citizens, support our values not out political party. Not "our guy" our VALUES! Each and every person who runs for office we should look at their voting record to see where they stand on issues that matter to us, not simply take a look at their party registry card.

[Terracoma]

I scored a 70/70, fully in the Libertarian ring but not too far from center... The questions are a little vague, but I feel my answers best suited my overall flavor.

US citizens aren't active enough in politics anymore. Period. We're more concerned about what Kanye West said at the VMAs than the legislation our Senators are passing in congress. There's just not enough accountability for our 'representatives', who are more interested in their paycheck and popularity than representing the interests of their constituents. Decades of voters who've constantly vote party lines so that they're supporting their "team" have perverted politics and the same mentality is perpetuating the problem today.

Hopefully one day, before the constitution is tattered by judicial activism and ridiculous government legislation, people will come to their senses.

[Crinale]

i got 70/90.. conservative Libertarian ;) id never seen it broken down the way it is there in the diagram... and didnt really know what Libertarian meant, but the description fits exactly the way i have placed myself since i started paying attention and voting...

[Bob98SR5]

you gotta love the liberal media. even though we are still in two countries fighting the war on terrorism, liberal nutjobs are NOT protesting, NOT chanting with obama is a facist pig/nazi charactures, etc. as the guys at protestwarrior.com say "war is good only when a democrat is in charge!"

that first vid of the kids singing that obama ass kissing song is sickening. no doubt the handy work of the teacher. kids dont know any better, and thats why its a travesty. separation of church and state...but allow cult hero worship of the almighty cult hero obama? okaaaay. you know, it would be one thing if the song was about promoting america and doing good for her, but these twisted ass liberal teachers must indoctrinate these impressionable kids for the good of america!

[RunnerUp]

cant say im surprised by my score... 30/100 full on conservative... anyways, we are all gonna die

[oly884]

i got 70/90.. conservative Libertarian ;) id never seen it broken down the way it is there in the diagram... and didnt really know what Libertarian meant, but the description fits exactly the way i have placed myself since i started paying attention and voting...


I've found that most people I know who try to claim they are liberal or conservative usually end up somewhere in the libertarian category. Possibly left leaning or right leaning (as I am slightly right leaning), but it's usually pretty clear. Hence the reason I don't understand why SO many people still support Obama, and the reason I created this thread (stay by your principles).

[oly884]

you gotta love the liberal media. even though we are still in two countries fighting the war on terrorism, liberal nutjobs are NOT protesting, NOT chanting with obama is a facist pig/nazi charactures, etc. as the guys at protestwarrior.com say "war is good only when a democrat is in charge!"

that first vid of the kids singing that obama ass kissing song is sickening. no doubt the handy work of the teacher. kids dont know any better, and thats why its a travesty. separation of church and state...but allow cult hero worship of the almighty cult hero obama? okaaaay. you know, it would be one thing if the song was about promoting america and doing good for her, but these twisted ass liberal teachers must indoctrinate these impressionable kids for the good of america!


Bob, the kid's song is more than sickening, it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding that this nation was created on.

Schools that are tax payer funded should have nothing like that going on, ever, at all. It's pathetic, and that teacher needs to be gone.

She's allowed to have her opinion, but much like it is at any other office or work place, if you constantly talk politics to people, chances are you won't be working there. You have to have respect for those who have different views (obviously to an extent), and to have that sort of conduct going on at her place of work is downright dangerous, I'd feel no different if they were singing about Reagan FWIW.

The fact that these are children is another issue entirely. Children are impressionable to say the least, they look up to teachers, and for this to be done, it is complete bullshit. People like that need to be reminded that they are responsible for the words they speak, so I hope that she gets fired and has a wake up call about what responsibility really is. I feel sorry for those children.

[oly884]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1J4fWs3as0&feature=player_embedded

Keep in mind that Danny Glover, Sean Penn, Oliver Stone, et al support this person.

[04 Rocko Taco]

just in case anyone feels the need like I did....

This is the email adress of the principal of the B Bernice Young Elementary School in Burlington, NJ where the children singing was filmed. dking@burltwpsch.org

Here is the website for the school, it lists other contacts, and a phone number if you are so inclined.
http://www.burltwpsch.org/schools/ys/

[oly884]

I was thinking more about the teacher and the reaction I'm expecting to see from all of this.

I have no doubt that somewhere along the line, freedom of speech will be brought up. Obviously it'll be a concern in this case, but not when it comes to the "fairness doctrine" but I digress...

The teacher has every right to voice her opinions regarding politics, or any other subject, I simply don't feel that voicing those opinions to students is an ethical thing to do, especially with a state funded school. So, in the event that they do bring this issue up, the question must be asked, "If she had a child in school that was taught a "Glory, Glory, President Reagan", how would she feel? Would she be angry that the teacher is teaching her child to sing a song about a president that she doesn't agree with? And if so, what makes this case any different?

Obviously, there is no difference, and her reaction to that scenario would be no different then what we are feeling about the video. What bothers me is that these people are not stupid, they know the hypocrisy, and that folks, is what makes this dangerous. They are lovers of freedom when they are out of power, and they advocate for fairness when they are in power.

So, be careful because there are republicans that are no different. They'll get in office under the phrases of 'change' and 'ending the corruption' (sound familiar????) and they'll go right back to the same dog and pony show. Understand who you are voting for, and nothing describes a person better than their past (exactly what I said about Obama before he was elected).

[fustercluck]

If we are to maintain a free republic wherein individual liberty and accountability reign supreme, political messages disseminated in government schools must be suppressed. If history has any value, we can see that once a society mixes it's pleasures, as it were, both become polluted and cannot function.

In this case, political messages and ideals imposed on the young who are not yet experienced enough to distinguish subtleties of truth and sophistry is the method of nearly every revolutionary tyrant. His message and methods unpalatable to those aged enough to know oppression when they see it, will be rejected by all but the young.

I don't believe Obasm is a nascent dictator, but we are being conditioned to accept the methods of future despotic candidates. It is dangerous ground to navigate if we are to keep a free republic.

[calrockx]

How about that?


Your PERSONAL issues Score is 80%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%.

According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

Liberal

LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal

matters, but tend to support significant government control of the

economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net"
to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation

of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations,

defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action

to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.


And I agree, kids shouldn't be singing praise for any president. Respect and civility yeah, but come on, get down to the real educational lessons.

On the other hand, if anyone had a problem with Obama's message to schoolchildren recently, well that's just playing politics and silly.

[ttora4runner]

According to that test I a Centrist but border line Libertarian / Right Conservative (red dot in the upper right hand corner of the centrist box). Never heard of a Centrist before.

I agree we should not be singing praise to him, they should be saying the "Pledge of Algence". Ya, I can't spell that.

[oly884]

How about that?


Your PERSONAL issues Score is 80%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%.

According to your answers, the political group that agrees with you most is...

Liberal

LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal

matters, but tend to support significant government control of the

economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net"
to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation

of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations,

defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action

to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.


And I agree, kids shouldn't be singing praise for any president. Respect and civility yeah, but come on, get down to the real educational lessons.

On the other hand, if anyone had a problem with Obama's message to schoolchildren recently, well that's just playing politics and silly.


Exactly.

I think the problem with the 'message' that Obama gave to kids was more focused on the assignment that they wanted to give post speech.

link: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/02/schoolchildren-get-assignment-obama/

Sure, there was no political questions, but I doubt anyone would argue with me that public schools lean left (I recently saw posters of Obama in a 5th grade class, I was physically there, so yes, it did indeed exist) and a concern about how the teachers would ask these questions, etc, etc.

Sure, it was all speculative, but once again, flip the situation and think about how you'd feel. Either way, it never happened, the speech was fine, and that's it.

My post is to bring up another 'issue' that has me going crazy: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/lucyjones/100003657/whoopi-goldberg-defends-roman-polanski-it-wasnt-rape-rape/#postComment

My first thought is, ARE YOU F'ing SERIOUS??????? Nothing about that makes sense except for the magical word: hypocrisy!!!! It explains her politics, her actions, and every single thing about her that is wrong. This man raped a 13 year old girl, anyone who doesn't see a problem with that is either a rapist themselves, a child molester, a wannabe of either, or simply screwed up in the head.

[CJM]

My take on it all:

No matter what we do, we cannot end the stupidity cycle. If we vote in people who are right in the head, they are far outnumbered by the idiots. If we forcefully remove said idiots, more will take their place.

In the end, if we want America to be back to what it was like before we were lawed to death we would have to basically start over imho. Only way I can see that happening is war, and a civil war at that. Then the country is divided again.

[oly884]

My take on it all:

No matter what we do, we cannot end the stupidity cycle. If we vote in people who are right in the head, they are far outnumbered by the idiots. If we forcefully remove said idiots, more will take their place.

In the end, if we want America to be back to what it was like before we were lawed to death we would have to basically start over imho. Only way I can see that happening is war, and a civil war at that. Then the country is divided again.


In order for that to happen, it has to get worse, a lot worse. The fundamental differences that we see cannot be repaired by anyone in office, regardless of who it is. If my ideal candidate was in office, there would be a lot of pissed of people because they've been raised under the belief that the government owes them things. (eg. health care, constant protection, cheap housing, food, water, etc). Where as, my belief is that we are given the freedom to succeed, fail, and pursue happiness. Pursue is the key word there, we are not guaranteed happiness, we as individuals are the only people who can ensure we have it or not.

While I won't argue that the purpose of government is necessary in certain areas, I personally believe the view of the founders has been taken so far out of context that it is disgusting.

The only way for people to reach a point to head back in the other direction, towards liberty and freedom is for those people to experience life without it. People must see first hand what a government with this amount of control can do to individual freedoms, and only then, will people truly yearn for it.

I'll show an example of what is wrong with society today, this is a transcript from the Glenn Beck show (radio). Like him or hate him, he's got a right to say what he has to say, but what he's doing is playing audio from "The View" where Bett Midler is talking about him, read what she says about the first amendment....

I don't care who you are, this is not good stuff, because I know people who would "agree that it makes sense to not allow hate speech" and fail to see the consequences of censoring speech.


BEHAR: But, you know, someone like Glenn Beck has made gazillions of dollars because he's out there being sort of hateful in many ways. He calls himself a clown and a comedian. Do you think he's funny?

MIDLER: I don't think he's funny even a little bit. I've never had a laugh with Glenn Beck. In fact, I find him terrifying.

BEHAR: You do?

MIDLER: I find him terrifying. He is like an old school demagogue and it's really frightening because if you really, if you look around at the rest of the world and what this kind of behavior has done like in Rwanda.

BEHAR: Yeah.

MIDLER: Where the demagogues got on the radio and started, fermented all that hate between the Tootsies and the Hutus and the devastation that happened from that. I mean, it's terrifying. And that could happen, you know. You could turn on a dime. That could happen here.

BEHAR: Well, we have free speech here and everything he says we can say something else.

MIDLER: I don't think hate speech should be so free. I'm not for --

GLENN: Listen to this.

MIDLER: -- censorship but I also feel like you are a human being.

BEHAR: I mean, but you can't stop people from hate speech because they have the right to say it. It's the First Amendment.

MIDLER: I think the people who are educated to be civil are civil. That's all there is to it. People who are not educated in any way, are just a little on the barbaric side, what can you do? But that's the fault of the education system.

PAT: What a strong stand for free speech.

GLENN: Free speech, yeah.

link: http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/31285/?ck=1

They have, and will continue to take away freedoms. Sure, it may be for money, or it may be for control, or it could even be out of "compassion" but they lack the true understanding of what freedom is. And the worst part is, we will let them unless we start to join together and stick to the principles that make up or lives.

Ok, done, for now.... :flipoff:

[calrockx]

Glenn Beck is a crazy.


What's Republican senator Lindsay Graham think?
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/01/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5356087.shtml

[oly884]

Glenn Beck is a crazy.


What's Republican senator Lindsay Graham think?
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/01/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5356087.shtml


What are your views on Bill Maher, Janeane Garofalo, and other leftists who use similar tones and name calling? Just curious...

My point is not whether Glenn Beck is crazy, or if you (or me) agrees with him. My point is that you have pieces of crap trying to say that a person, such as Beck, shouldn't be on air. If he was saying such crazy things, then he will eventually be gone because people have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE whether to listen to him or not, but there are complete idiots out there that want to make 'exceptions' to the rules to limit speech that they find offensive (you and I are offended by different things, so would it be OK for me to censor you because I don't like what you had to say? answer: no). That is the problem, so please don't turn this into "what he says, has said, or will say" because I'm not interested in debating that.

You either believe in freedom of speech, or you don't. There's no bubble gum forest and cute bunnies where "freedom of speech" is everyone talking nicely to each other. It's either all ok, or none of it is, and the very second an exception is made is the second we all lose because while you're pal may be in office now, someone you may not like will be in there at some point, and perhaps you'll understand where I'm coming from...

[CJM]

The problem with that situation oly is that even if we do have the proverbial end of the world scenario or major diaster, etc-even if it happens tons will see the light at the end of the tunnel-but plenty more will want it back the old way too.

I am reminded of a book I once read where basically the economy collapsed and it became everyman for himself.

In that book a group of people survive because they prepared for it, some time into it a few years have passed and an apparently so called "elected prez" comes to give a speech and wants it just like the old way and a few do agree.

My point is if it ever did happen you will have a divided US, one for the old ways and one for the current ways.

[oly884]

The problem with that situation oly is that even if we do have the proverbial end of the world scenario or major diaster, etc-even if it happens tons will see the light at the end of the tunnel-but plenty more will want it back the old way too.

I am reminded of a book I once read where basically the economy collapsed and it became everyman for himself.

In that book a group of people survive because they prepared for it, some time into it a few years have passed and an apparently so called "elected prez" comes to give a speech and wants it just like the old way and a few do agree.

My point is if it ever did happen you will have a divided US, one for the old ways and one for the current ways.


I absolutely agree. That's the reason I was saying that in order for anything to really change, you have to let these people touch their hand to the stove. Sometimes they need to see for themselves that their grandiose ideas about "the greater good" really doesn't work out in the long run, at least that is how I interpret history.

Any, and I mean ANY violence will result in an incredible amount of our freedoms to be lost. So, our only option is to either try and get GOOD people in office and slowly destroy what these people have been building in our government, or, let our country slide down the path of Statism, and possibly towards socialism/fascism, and let our friends and neighbors who see no issues with what is happening today experience first hand what we warned them about.

But, perhaps I am wrong, it'd be nice if I was.

It is control, and what it seems that people are willing to be controlled, so long as they agree with the cause (eg. patriot act or health care).

[calrockx]

What are your views on Bill Maher, Janeane Garofalo, and other leftists who use similar tones and name calling? Just curious...



Meh.
I like Bill Maher, he can be pretty funny. I loved Religulous.



My point is not whether Glenn Beck is crazy, or if you (or me) agrees with him. My point is that you have pieces of crap trying to say that a person, such as Beck, shouldn't be on air. If he was saying such crazy things, then he will eventually be gone because people have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE whether to listen to him or not, but there are complete idiots out there that want to make 'exceptions' to the rules to limit speech that they find offensive (you and I are offended by different things, so would it be OK for me to censor you because I don't like what you had to say? answer: no). That is the problem, so please don't turn this into "what he says, has said, or will say" because I'm not interested in debating that.


I have no problem with him being on the air.
It's just unfortunate so many people buy into what he's saying. Not simply because I disagree with him, but because I believe he's exploiting peoples fears, giving them an "answer", and is sensational for ratings sake.



You either believe in freedom of speech, or you don't. There's no bubble gum forest and cute bunnies where "freedom of speech" is everyone talking nicely to each other.


Haha, so dramatic.
You reminded me of this scene: http://www.hulu.com/watch/33844/the-simpsons-the-land-of-chocolate



It's either all ok, or none of it is, and the very second an exception is made is the second we all lose because while you're pal may be in office now, someone you may not like will be in there at some point, and perhaps you'll understand where I'm coming from...


You mean like the previous 8 years?
I'm all for freedom of speech. I just think a lot of the protesting going on now is unfortunately divisive, ignorant, and backwards.
Substantial/reasonable disagreements with policy? Bring it on.
Calling Obama a secret Muslim Nazi socialist from Kenya who wants to kill old people? Embarrassing and disgraceful.

[CJM]

I absolutely agree. That's the reason I was saying that in order for anything to really change, you have to let these people touch their hand to the stove. Sometimes they need to see for themselves that their grandiose ideas about "the greater good" really doesn't work out in the long run, at least that is how I interpret history.

Any, and I mean ANY violence will result in an incredible amount of our freedoms to be lost. So, our only option is to either try and get GOOD people in office and slowly destroy what these people have been building in our government, or, let our country slide down the path of Statism, and possibly towards socialism/fascism, and let our friends and neighbors who see no issues with what is happening today experience first hand what we warned them about.

But, perhaps I am wrong, it'd be nice if I was.

It is control, and what it seems that people are willing to be controlled, so long as they agree with the cause (eg. patriot act or health care).



While I agree I feel that the majority will not do much about it. Think of it like the old story of offering a regard for snitching. What are you gonna do (general public)-resist if it means your job, life, family, etc might be ruined-or go along with it cause you dont have much of a choice if you want to survive.

I strongly urge you to go read Matthew Brackens works, what he writes is so eerie of whats been going on and what will happen in the future that you will be sickened.

While I feel some change could occur, like I said I feel its not possible even at its worst that we will rebuild to be in the image of what used to be.

[oly884]

What are your views on Bill Maher, Janeane Garofalo, and other leftists who use similar tones and name calling? Just curious...



Meh.
I like Bill Maher, he can be pretty funny. I loved Religulous.



My point is not whether Glenn Beck is crazy, or if you (or me) agrees with him. My point is that you have pieces of crap trying to say that a person, such as Beck, shouldn't be on air. If he was saying such crazy things, then he will eventually be gone because people have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE whether to listen to him or not, but there are complete idiots out there that want to make 'exceptions' to the rules to limit speech that they find offensive (you and I are offended by different things, so would it be OK for me to censor you because I don't like what you had to say? answer: no). That is the problem, so please don't turn this into "what he says, has said, or will say" because I'm not interested in debating that.


I have no problem with him being on the air.
It's just unfortunate so many people buy into what he's saying. Not simply because I disagree with him, but because I believe he's exploiting peoples fears, giving them an "answer", and is sensational for ratings sake.



You either believe in freedom of speech, or you don't. There's no bubble gum forest and cute bunnies where "freedom of speech" is everyone talking nicely to each other.


Haha, so dramatic.
You reminded me of this scene: http://www.hulu.com/watch/33844/the-simpsons-the-land-of-chocolate



It's either all ok, or none of it is, and the very second an exception is made is the second we all lose because while you're pal may be in office now, someone you may not like will be in there at some point, and perhaps you'll understand where I'm coming from...


You mean like the previous 8 years?
I'm all for freedom of speech. I just think a lot of the protesting going on now is unfortunately divisive, ignorant, and backwards.
Substantial/reasonable disagreements with policy? Bring it on.
Calling Obama a secret Muslim Nazi socialist from Kenya who wants to kill old people? Embarrassing and disgraceful.



I never said anything about the previous 8 years being just fine, that was part of the problem, Obama is adding to it.

Yes, there are some protesters that are just silly, just as the protesters who compared GW to Hitler. There are plenty of areas that can be disagreed on with his policy.

As for Maher, I personally think he's about as bright and civil as a cat turd. He has no ethics and suffers from a serious case of narcissistic personality disorder.

We simply have a disagreement in opinion, but I would imagine that we could agree on some of the basic ideas of freedom?

[malteserunner]

In my humble opinion, one of the major problems with our society is this. We are slowly being conditioned to believe it is okay to do whatever we want to do with our lives, as long as it 'feels' good. I'm not talking murder, so don't jump on the extremist bandwagon. But if it's okay today to say, have more than one wife, or live solely off the 'government', etc., then tomorrow it might feel good for someone to marry their daughter, or never get any education or a job because a person wouldn't have to. The freedoms we are afforded in this country aren't free; many people have given everything to offer freedom to the masses in America. Not long ago, people were honored to stand in front of our flag and pledge allegiance, or shed a tear while standing, hand over heart, during the National Anthem. These days, too many people are just floating through life expecting these 'rights' to be handed to them, without feeling any obligation to earn their keep. The bottom line is, in the end, a society with no moral value will inevitably tear itself apart because it will have no reason not to. The citizens in our country need to lead their lives with a sense of accountability, rather than expect everything to come to them at no cost. Stop taking handouts, when you are perfectly capable of providing for yourself. If you can't come up with a down payment on a new car on your own, why should you take 'free' money from the government to buy a car you obviously can't afford. If you make $35k/year, what business do you have buying a $300k home, even if the bank tells you they can make the payment fit into your budget? Do people really think the banks are trying to help them? My advice to anyone who cares to hear it is as follows: get out of debt, stop spending money you don't have, make moral values a priority in your life, realize your friends and family are far more important than your possessions or desires, stop believing everything you see or hear in the media, and exercise your privilege to vote in an educated manner. It's not 'cool' to vote, it's responsible to vote.

[oly884]

Very well said Adam. You hit the nail on the head.

[oly884]

Let me be the first to say congrats to President Obama for his wonderful use of 2 jumbo jets to fly across the Atlantic to pitch Chicago for the 2016 Olympics only to be eliminated in the first round!

Wonderful, WONDERFUL use of our money and his (and this country's) time.

[scottiac]

Let me be the first to say congrats to President Obama for his wonderful use of 2 jumbo jets to fly across the Atlantic to pitch Chicago for the 2016 Olympics only to be eliminated in the first round!

Wonderful, WONDERFUL use of our money and his (and this country's) time.


Just to play devil's advocate here, if he *had* succeeded, it would have meant lots of construction jobs, lots ($$) of income from the Olympics, national prestige, etc. Would *that* have been a good use of money? Not all investments pay off. Doesn't mean it was necessarily bad to try.

[Small_words]

I understand your points about construction jobs but if I remember correctly, the Olympics usually come out as a net negative for income vs. expenditure for the local economy. We have so many schools that are ramshackle and roads that are the same that the money SHOULD be used to fix, not make some snazzy new stadium for a bicycle track or badminton.

[oly884]

Let me be the first to say congrats to President Obama for his wonderful use of 2 jumbo jets to fly across the Atlantic to pitch Chicago for the 2016 Olympics only to be eliminated in the first round!

Wonderful, WONDERFUL use of our money and his (and this country's) time.


Just to play devil's advocate here, if he *had* succeeded, it would have meant lots of construction jobs, lots ($$) of income from the Olympics, national prestige, etc. Would *that* have been a good use of money? Not all investments pay off. Doesn't mean it was necessarily bad to try.


If there would have been a net gain, then sure, but those Olympic games are 5+ years away, so Chicago, and the country, would have to go further in debt before any payback would be seen. It'd be like buying a house when you are already in over your head with the notion that the house will gain in value and you'll make money in 5 to 10 years.

Yes, it would stimulate the local economy, but remember, our national economy is in the dumps right now too. Why not put our nation first instead of one city? As for national prestige, I'm not worried about that, it's been screwed up for the last few decades by both parties, so I don't feel that it'll get better with this administration from what I'm seeing so far.

I understand where you are coming from Scott, but I feel that this move was so wrong (whether we got it or not) because of the issues our nation is facing. We need to start focusing on the problems we have right now (eg health care, 2 wars, unemployment, energy, etc) and worry about the "fun" things later.

[scottiac]

I understand your points about construction jobs but if I remember correctly, the Olympics usually come out as a net negative for income vs. expenditure for the local economy. We have so many schools that are ramshackle and roads that are the same that the money SHOULD be used to fix, not make some snazzy new stadium for a bicycle track or badminton.

Honestly, I can't argue that there are a bazillion things I'd rather see the gov't spend money on (wait, no there isn't... there's almost nothing I want them to spend their money on! :) ), but landing an Olympics is a highly desirable carrot for many reasons, or every country in the world wouldn't bust their butts to get the nod.

I'm sure the President received a LOT of pressure from the city of Chicago, the state of Illinois, etc. to make the trip, and I'd bet that it isn't a "first" by any stretch of the imagination.

And I somehow suspect, in my dark little hopeful heart, that he probably did some other business on the trip as well.

[oly884]

I understand your points about construction jobs but if I remember correctly, the Olympics usually come out as a net negative for income vs. expenditure for the local economy. We have so many schools that are ramshackle and roads that are the same that the money SHOULD be used to fix, not make some snazzy new stadium for a bicycle track or badminton.

Honestly, I can't argue that there are a bazillion things I'd rather see the gov't spend money on (wait, no there isn't... there's almost nothing I want them to spend their money on! :) ), but landing an Olympics is a highly desirable carrot for many reasons, or every country in the world wouldn't bust their butts to get the nod.

I'm sure the President received a LOT of pressure from the city of Chicago, the state of Illinois, etc. to make the trip, and I'd bet that it isn't a "first" by any stretch of the imagination.

And I somehow suspect, in my dark little hopeful heart, that he probably did some other business on the trip as well.


Sure, hosting the Olympics is a great thing. We've got the Vancouver Olympics this next winter, and even Seattle is going to be quite busy with it. So, yes, it's a cool thing to have around. But like I said, there are plenty of other things that we need to buckle down and get done before we should try to do any thing like this.

I can respect the decision of people to want to have it, but flying across the Atlantic to pitch Chicago for the bid was something, in my opinion, that was far from the right thing to do.

[scottiac]

Yes, it would stimulate the local economy, but remember, our national economy is in the dumps right now.

I understand where you are coming from Scott, but I feel that this move was so wrong (whether we got it or not) because of the issues our nation is facing. We need to start focusing on the problems we have right now (eg health care, 2 wars, unemployment, energy, etc) and worry about the "fun" things later.


Not to make *too* broad of a statement, "fun" is what stimulates the economy. Big screen tv's that no one needs, giant expensive cars (or, gasp, SUVs) are *fun*, are the mainstay of the economy. Many professional sports teams operate at a significant loss and cost to their "home" cities, yet they are considered a net good, because they are... er... fun.

Personally, I'm even worse of an economic conservative than you are, I suspect. I just understand this behavior, I don't always like it myself, but I understand it at a macro-economic level.

[oly884]

Yes, it would stimulate the local economy, but remember, our national economy is in the dumps right now.

I understand where you are coming from Scott, but I feel that this move was so wrong (whether we got it or not) because of the issues our nation is facing. We need to start focusing on the problems we have right now (eg health care, 2 wars, unemployment, energy, etc) and worry about the "fun" things later.


Not to make *too* broad of a statement, "fun" is what stimulates the economy. Big screen tv's that no one needs, giant expensive cars (or, gasp, SUVs) are *fun*, are the mainstay of the economy. Many professional sports teams operate at a significant loss and cost to their "home" cities, yet they are considered a net good, because they are... er... fun.

Personally, I'm even worse of an economic conservative than you are, I suspect. I just understand this behavior, I don't always like it myself, but I understand it at a macro-economic level.


Sounds like we agree on the economy to an extent.

While I agree that "fun" things stimulate the economy, I think that the notion that we have to have these "fun" things was one of the leading causes to what happened to our economy. Instead of being responsible about money, we go out and spend spend spend (remember GW after 9/11? That was, in my opinion, stupid). Sure, we need to stimulate our economy, get people to spend money, but we need to spend money intelligently.

To make a culture that is sustainable (and I mean the actual definition), we have to do our best to stay out of massive debt. Just like you or me, having some debt is a good thing, but when either of us go very very far into debt, with no real easy way out, continuing to spend money isn't a responsible thing to do.

I've been in debt before, sometimes more than I would have liked. What I did though, was stop spending money on anything but what is needed, buckle down, and pay off the debt, or at least get it back to a manageable level. Getting completely out of debt has its merits, but also keeping it at a manageable level has merits as well.

This country is far from "in check" with their debt, and I just feel that flying 2 jets across the Atlantic, whether we got it or not, was irresponsible. Just my 2 cents.

[calrockx]

If you were against Chicago getting the games, you're short-sighted and not seeing the big picture.
Those games would have brought investment and jobs to the host country. That's actually a good thing. Other candidate countries sent their leaders, I'm glad Obama rooted for the US. If hehadn't gone, he's have gotten crap for that too. It's a bummer we didn't get it, but I understand why Rio was chosen.

There are bigger concerns? Obama has been dealing with the economy and health care every day, it's obvious they're priorities (Hey GOP, where's your health care plan? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33141390/ns/politics-health_care_reform/)) The president should be able to deal with more than one issue at a time.

The right jeers when Obama takes a day to go bring the Olympics to the States, I don't get that. Where was the outrage when Bush took nearly 500 days of Texas vacation time during his two terms? The problems weren't as big then? No, the problems were just in formation and worsening, to be dumped on Obama. It's gonna take while to clean up the mess the last administration gave us.

Speaking of Bush, what did he think about the Chicago 2016 games?
"They say that the Olympics will come to Chicago if we're fortunate enough to be selected, but really it's coming to America, and I can't think of a better city to represent the United States than Chicago. This country supports your bid, strongly." Bush said.

Then the right cheers when Chicago didn't get the games. Just cause it's an easy political jab. So pathetic.

"A year ago, a conservative Republican president told Chicago, "This country supports your bid, strongly." That was then, before the right decided their hatred for the president's hometown was more important than anything else.

Remember, in 2005, when New York was eliminated as a host city for the 2012 Olympics, and liberals everywhere giggled like children and mocked the Bush administration?

Oh wait, that didn't happen."

The president can handle more than one issue at a time.

[oly884]

You speak about the right as if I'm "ok" about Bush taking 500 days off. And once again, it's all coming back to "the previous administration" When will you hold the current president accountable for what is going on? As for the "mess the last administration left", what about the mess this administration is creating? Bailing out businesses that should never have been bailed out? Spending ungodly amounts of money? Devaluing our dollar? Not dealing with the wars (and that's either packing up and going home ASAP, or finishing the fight)? Did the last administration help create these problems? Sure they did, but Obama isn't making things better, and I feel they are making them worse.

If the games came here, it would create jobs for the host city, not the nation. I highly doubt many people outside of Chicago would have been employed for the 2016 games. Let's not forget the kinds of jobs created... Construction jobs, maybe some marketing jobs? How long would those last?

There's a big difference between creating careers and creating jobs. My friend is a tile worker, he gets "jobs". He can get one tomorrow, but it will end in a certain amount of time, and he'll have to find another "job". Sure, it'd spark up the economy of Chicago, Illinois, and some surrounding states for a while, but those jobs will end.

Screw the GOP, they've screwed us just as much as Obama and the rest of the dems. Their lack of any decent plan is making them look like idiots, you can't criticize Obama's health care plan when you don't have any decent ideas yourself.

Your response is exactly why I posted the bit about sticking to your principles. The right is just as guilty as the left of the hypocrisy. Both parties do it, and their supporters do it too. I'm tired of it. If we don't hold ALL of our politicians accountable to the same standards, then we're forever going to be in a bitching match and one day we're going to wonder what the hell happened.

There's plenty that needs to be focused on in our own country, sure the president may be able to multitask, I can too, but if I've got a lot of other things going on back home, I'm going to focus on those first, and if I miss an opportunity, so be it.

[calrockx]

Keep that big picture in mind.

And I hear ya on principles.

I loved that Jon Stewart ripped apart the Democrats this week on Daily Show, they're pathetic lately. Way too much catering to the bucks than the constituents going on in congress. At least a few (Grayson and Frist come to mind) are raising their voices and concentrating on creating positive change.

I'm happy with Obama as President, and overall with his progress so far, but yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of some of his moves either, I'll grant you that.

[oly884]

I have the big picture in mind, I just think our pictures may look a bit different from each other, but that's all right, that's what this country is about.

Both parties are catering to the $$$ and not listening to those who elected them, it's sad. What is worse though is that opportunists are going to go off of that, get elected, and go right back to the same ol' crap.

I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised if I told you that I'm not exactly happy with Obama, but the part that really sucks is thinking about what the alternative would have been... not much better in my mind.

[CJM]

Check this out:Sorry guys, the vidclip is interesting, but the effetely masked profanity won't pass here. You can repost it in the NSFW and link it back here with a warning if you like.

Fred Gets It

I couldnt agree more..

Make sure you click the video and go to youtube, plenty of links for you to check out.

[Small_words]

Awesome. That got me laughing my Equus asinus off...truly.

Calrockx, one thing that Obama does all the time that pisses me off is reminding everyone that he inherited crap from Bush. Got it and I agree that he picked up a huge pile of steaming poo from Bush. When you get hired to replace the idiot predecessor you can't tell your boss that you're doing better than the last guy...that they fired (I say fired because the Republicans were destroyed in the last two elections).

Obama may be able to handle more than one thing at a time but our bureaucracy is like the idiot in customer service that you can't overload with too many issues. When dealing with simpletons you have to map out the problem and step them through the solution, then move onto the next one. Perhaps I'm being unfair to our Congress and electorate, but how many people are able to focus on one very large complex issue and step through to the solution on their own? Not F'ING many!!!

Obama seems likable, so did Bush. Likability and a great stage presence don't make a great leader. His solutions are always to empower 'other' people to make decisions on our behalf. Give me choices over how best to take care of myself and I'll do fine. The same goes for governance and regulations. If AIG was moronic and overexposed themselves to risk, they'll lose their shirts and a competitor that wasn't as exposed will take their market share. This isn't painless but it's the law of LIFE. The old and weak die off and are replaced by the young and strong.

The older I get the more I distrust the decisions others make that will affect me. This is because only I know my situation and my family's situation well and given the available options I will take care of them to the best of my ability. The problem with our government currently is that they're taking choices away and since until recently we were all making more and more money, people were letting them do so. When we go splat and have no money and no choice, we might wake up and hold our elected idiots accountable.

I have to go, my daughter awoke from her nap.


Please omit profanity from the text of messages

[calrockx]

Good post, small words. I see what you're saying.

[oly884]

My feelings on this Nobel Peace Prize and Obama:

It's a joke and mocks everything the Peace Prize stands for.

Why is he getting an award for what he has promised? Wouldn't that be the equivalent of me saying that I'm going to make the best album ever and get a Grammy? It would have been one thing if he had actually done something to deserve this, and while I may have disagreed with it, at least there would have been something to debate about it. We're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, Guantanamo is still open, and sure, those things take time to end/close, but at least give it to him once he has actually accomplished it.

Thoughts?

[DHC6twinotter]

I'd like to cure cancer someday. Maybe I can get a Nobel Peace Prize? I don't have the know how to do so, but the folks in Norway might give me a prize anyways.

Since when does somebody get an award for something they have not yet done? If I enter my 4Runner in a Nascar race, will I win the championship because I tried?

There are way more people that deserve this award more than Obama. I meet dozens of soldiers every day that have been injured fighting for our freedom. They're the folks that deserve something like this.


:confused:

[CJM]

It was an insult he got that award and to add further insult to injury he really didnt do a damn thing to earn or get it.

As the days go by, I get more and more annoyed.

[Obi..]

The nobel peace prize are submitted for voting by 2/1/2009 which means they based BO's decision solely based on his 10 days of office. WOW.....

shows you how much the nobel peace prize is a joke. Hell I would have at least given the nobel peace prize to Clinton first!


Ultimate Yota Bash on Obama Fail. OK, I cannot skip a reply to this thread anymore. (I'll use lance's reply in this case, but there are so many others like this.)

No, it is based on his achievements in the work he did prior. C'mon, is it just normal for everyone to just boitch needlessly about who ever's currently in office?

Bush ran 3 companies into the ground before he ran our treasury down, how about that thought.

Give the man some time, Clinton f'd some stuff up pretty good himself, but time has shown his merits, same will go for Bush and Obama some day. Lighten up with this guys, it's getting old.

Instead of griping, try to step to that level and fix what you see wrong. I would enjoy this topic so much more if it wasn't full of inverse supposition and subjective views.

Show me why, but in a less bashing way and I like others, might be more willing to listen. Doing things like this just makes the forum look mean and lacking a full view of things.

..and no, I am not a democrat, nor am I a republican. Let the man do some work a little more, things are still pretty f'd up and it is never a good thing to have to take over a mess. Let blame be dealt when appropriate and evidenced is all.

[Ric]

him even being nominated is a JOKE. He shouldnt even be the pres. this country is going down hill FAST, and hes in the drivers seat, time to save us or kill us

[CJM]

Before he does a thing I want to see cold, hard proof he is even a citizen. and No I dont accept that bs hawaii is telling us.

[Ric]

Before he does a thing I want to see cold, hard proof he is even a citizen. and No I dont accept that bs hawaii is telling us.

thats what I mean he shouldnt even be the pres. why would he spend OVER a MILLION dollars to keep it out of the courts ???

[CJM]

Exactly, if it wasnt true and he has nothing to hide why is he going to such elaborate bs to keep it covered up?

Honestly my take is like usual he was "elected" by whomever the powers that be are. Just like AL Gore actually won the election according to the vote and fubar vote situation but somehow GWB was prez.

Just like JFK was eliminated too..

[fustercluck]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/kanye.jpg

[slosurfer]

No, it is based on his achievements in the work he did prior.



Ummm... and what exactly were his achievements prior that waranted being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize? Was it being a community organizer, was it voting "present" so many times, was it spending the majority of his senate term running for president? Was it because he opposed the Iraq War, but flip flopped back and forth on his senate votes regarding funding the war on different occasions?

Please tell us what his prior achievements were?

[fustercluck]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/gm09100620091007120122.jpg

[fustercluck]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/cb1009wj20091009075306.jpg

[fustercluck]

If a man is destroying the fabric of this nation how long must we allow him to operate before we can squawk and retain the 'fairness' required by moderates?

[Obi..]

Read up: http://www.biography.com/articles/Barack-Obama-12782369

Now, you all can continue your bash and jibs, fine. FWIW I say give the guy his chance, it hasn't even been a year and everyone considers themselves a pundit.

Put up or shut up. If you want to do better, then instead of spending such an inordinate time complaining, start at your local level and do something and have something to show for it.

Why in this case, I will give some credit to Lance and Chris's comments, and justifiably reply to them. All of us should be so good as to organize an event such as Pismo.. Imagine then if aside from organising it, we were to put some advocacy energy into the retention of access, or even better, bust out a potato sack and pick up 3 loads worth of trash and recycle what can and properly dispose of the rest.

Show me your civic responsibilities before you go throwing stones like "voted present" and other misplaced examples.

Presidency is a big job, that isn't in debate here. What is it seems is his worthyness. Get past it or organize an impeachment process. Let your actions speak better than your words.

[Crinale]

you didnt reply to chris's post though... show us what accomplishments other than showing up he has actually done... you keep touting his "prior achievements" as worthy of his award... i dont think he has actually done anything to deserve it.. unless you can actually show me something that is Nobel worthy

[Good Times]

A long time ago the Nobel Peace Prize meant something.... But that was a long time ago. When they decided to give the Nobel Peace Prize to Yasser Arafat that was a really big wtf moment. Basically that put all the other deserving individuals to shame. There are other individuals that were inducted and those definitely solidified that the Nobel Peace Prize was no longer an honorary award rather a political BS on a global front.

BO winning was just icing on the cake that shows how much the Nobel Peace Prize is not valued much anymore on tangible accomplishments. Really puts a shame to the other deserving individuals that have done so much for all man kind.

I ask, what has BO done "tangible" that we can show forth in deserving such an award? There are plenty of other individuals that have done more for man kind than what he's done to date (LIFETIME). Clinton might have f'd up a few times over but have you seen some of the post Presidential accomplishments he's done around the world? Shoot he should have won the award 100x compared BO's level of accomplishments. Hell we have our own Hollywood celebrities doing more humanitarian work (something tangible) than what BO has done ever! All BO has done is flap his lips and say stuff that makes everyone happy inside and think tomorrow is going to be a beautiful day and everyone is gonna be happy. Sorry but that's all fairytale stuff and the reality is a really cold dark f'd up place to live in. If you don't work hard to survive you're gonna die. This world is the survival of the fittest and if you're weak you're dead. Sorry but that's life...

Now here's my take on the whole award. It's a politically motivated selection to sway BO to deny the additional troops to Afghanistan. I mean if you think about, General McChrystal just asked for 60,000 more troops for the war in Afghanistan. Think about the timing of all of this and you tell me something isn't fishy here? By honoring BO w/ this award he's now bound by the expectation of "world peace" and if so how do you allow additional troops to a war without the backlash?

Just some more food for thought.

[Obi..]

A long time ago the Nobel Peace Prize meant something.... But that was a long time ago. When they decided to give the Nobel Peace Prize to Yasser Arafat that was a really big wtf moment. Basically that put all the other deserving individuals to shame. There are other individuals that were inducted and those definitely solidified that the Nobel Peace Prize was no longer an honorary award rather a political BS on a global front.
...
Just some more food for thought.


Thank you. Well put and appreciate the thought that went into the reply rather than quick jabs. I never said I liked what was going on, just give him a chance is all.

Remember, Bush made promises and had failures and expectations placed. History will sort it out for us, right?

All I'm suggesting is a more appreciable conversation instead of how it looks to outsiders like a bunch of gripers.

As for what I was hinting at, in my opinion I believe some try to place his prior work in the social front along side his current promises, whether worthy or not.

America has lost it's focus and optimism, as well as it's strength. We all need to do something to return to that while keeping things straight. Maybe the move away from a "big stick" has been not worth it, just like coddling of children through the 80's and 90's has lead to some whiners.

Keep in mind though, for every whiner, there will be a shining star. Just watch for those and be conscious of today.

[slosurfer]

Shane, you have yet to answer my question. You keep going on and on about giving him a chance, yada yada, yada.... This has nothing to do about what he is doing now, nor how I feel about him now, it has to do about what he has done to PRIOR TO BEING PRESIDENT, that waranted him getting the Nobel Peace Prize.

Just answer that question, it has nothing to do with whether I like BO or not, whether I am giving him a chance, etc.... FWIW, I was just at a meeting last night with some local artists who are all huge BO fans and they were pissed that he got the award. Even they knew that he had not done anything "yet" that had waranted the award.

Also, FWIW, two weekends before the pismo jambo, I was out picking up 4 large bags of trash for coastal cleanup day. http://yourdunes.org Just because all you think you see is people bitching about the president, don't assume that, that is all they are doing.

[Obi..]

I thought I gave an answer but just in case: His work in social sides and humanities was the reason I know of for one specific professor at a certain university to nominate him.



Read up: http://www.biography.com/articles/Barack-Obama-12782369

His striving for equality, change, and peace may be to some, let me change that to "most" a pipe dream, but it is a reason to push through. No peace and all this stuff isn't necessarily an answer but they are ideas deserving merit and action. A far cry from Bush's war mongering and private interest funding habits.

He is taking the role only one other person wanted, and even then couldn't make it to this spot.

This isn't about you, me, or any of us, it's about a nation needing help and too many people are already griping and ready to back out before the hard parts even half way through.

Look at it like this, when you signed up, did you back out the moment people told you it might not be a good idea or the moment you got off the bus? No. You were given the chance to prove yourself, and frankly, so should you, as many others should, give the man the chance to show us what he can accomplish. I love the griping, it shows a lack of trust and foresight. Lack of trust is fine, let him earn it, but lack of foresight just makes you blind to the possibilities, correct? Well, how best to see things then to just let them happen.

I'm not saying drop focus off of the looming nuclear issue. I;m not saying drop focus on the national issues, just, again, everyone ease up and let the man do his thing. That or again, step up and do better then. Most of us are old enough to run for president right.

*FWIW I'm well aware of what you were doing before Pismo. You weren't the only one there, right. I do know people in SLO. It was directed towards others to make them be a little more introspective is all.

Sheesh, I'm gonna go watch "Lord of the Flies" and feel even more like Piggy. :chair:

[fustercluck]

Shane, if Pres. Obama single-handedly saved a million lives- husbands, wives, daughters, sons- would you say he earned the peace prize? What if he did it at great political and personal cost while never heralding the success for gain?

Answer this question and I'll answer yours.

[Obi..]

"If" is a lot different than "has". You know there is no answer to that question.

What great political and personal cost can be worse than the lives lost, affected and shown to be diminished for a failed attempt to put down foreign terrorists and the overall depletion of our treasury and national financial security?

Maybe he should pull something similar and declare war on Wall Street and Madoff?

At least then some would show support, if not still self serving.

Will the continuation of the course solve things or is a new approach reasonable.

{EDIT} As far as I see I have made a point, if not many. As far as the Nobel Prize, something only loses value if people let it. You don't like it, fine, do something other than type about it.

[fustercluck]

If I could show you he has/had done that, would you say he is far more deserving of respect and accomdation than he is receiving?....and has earned the nobel prize?

[Obi..]

You can't is my point therefore your guys arguments hold as much merit to me as mine does to you.

You are judging before it is time to do so. All things in good time. I never said I liked the idea of the prize, just that all I keep seeing is the fact that this thread, although a good idea, is far from insightful.

C'mon, show me the bad results then, let me put your demands back on you. Convince me why I should not give the man a chance?

[Obi..]

Quit lurking and reply..this doesn't need so much drawn out thinking. Reply with what you have and speak from your heart and mind.

If you do so it shows me you are already thinking at the pace I am and anticipating what to come back with.

{Short edits not withstanding.}

[fustercluck]

let's say I can show proof of his saving a million lives. Would you believe he deserved it then?

[fustercluck]

Quit lurking and reply..this doesn't need so much drawn out thinking. Reply with what you have and speak from your heart and mind.

If you do so it shows me you are already thinking at the pace I am and anticipating what to come back with.

{Short edits not withstanding.}


Sorry, not lurking. I didn't hit the post button

[fustercluck]

I gotta go. Please repond to my last question when you get a chance. I'll be back in a few hours...

[Small_words]

I haven't really joined the fray on this and since I'm supposed to take a test today I don't guarantee that I'll be around later to clarify my post.

The Nobel Peace Price has been awarded to the following individuals in the last 5 years
Barack Obama - "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples"
Marti Ahtisaari - diplomat who negotiated cease fires in several war zones
Al Gore - climate change
Muhammad Yunus - micro loans in Bangladesh
Mohammad El Baradei - for keeping nuclear arms from spreading

I think the only deserving guy is the banker with the micro loans because anyone who promotes wealth and jobs for the poor, especially Muslim, is definately making the world a safer place. The diplomat is okay but people don't stop fighting because a Finnish guy comes to town. People stop fighting when they've achieved what they want or are afraid of losing what they have left. So, I think we can agree that the Peace Prize is b.s. and if Obama lets the award of this affect his policy on Afghanistan then he will be voted out of office for being a total nitwit. The funny thing about Afghanistan is that the best way to promote life there is to continue fighting the Taliban. If they're abandoned to the Taliban it really will be a reprise of Vietnam with thousands executed for collaborating with us. Then there is the long term oppression that while peaceful is pretty inhuman.

Obama's problem is that he doesn't have the individual strength to lead nor does he have a sharp opposition majority. Reagan had the clarity of purpose needed to stay on task of defeating the USSR as well as the ability to convince or force others to fall in line. Clinton didn't have this single minded purpose but he had a sharp opposition led by Gingrich. The Republican majority opposed him but sharpened his ideas and rhetoric and he was popular enough with the people to explain and convince us to follow his refined policies. Obama has neither. He is like Clinton in his personal appeal but his party is failing him by letting him take the fall for their atrocious choices in everything.

Obama can come back from this poor start but he's going to have to buck his party and lead. I doubt he'll do this but it's what he needs to do because our country is evenly split between Dem/Rep and if he's purely Dem he'll lose more independents and office and leave us in a worse situation than when he came.

[calrockx]

I agree Obama's Nobel Peace Prizing seems a bit premature, but in this context it makes sense:



_ Myth: The prize is awarded to recognize efforts for peace, human rights and democracy only after they have proven successful.

More often, the prize is awarded to encourage those who receive it to see the effort through, sometimes at critical moments.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ibu-kfROlVhexdt7vLCBR7KGa1gwD9B7CB282

[calrockx]

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mike10092009.jpg

[fustercluck]

I agree Obama's Nobel Peace Prizing seems a bit premature, but in this context it makes sense:



_ Myth: The prize is awarded to recognize efforts for peace, human rights and democracy only after they have proven successful.

More often, the prize is awarded to encourage those who receive it to see the effort through, sometimes at critical moments.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ibu-kfROlVhexdt7vLCBR7KGa1gwD9B7CB282


While the above may be the evolution of the NPP, according to Nobel's will, the Peace Prize should be awarded "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses".


"Shall have done" is a state of actual successful accomplishments.

[oly884]

The nobel peace prize are submitted for voting by 2/1/2009 which means they based BO's decision solely based on his 10 days of office. WOW.....

shows you how much the nobel peace prize is a joke. Hell I would have at least given the nobel peace prize to Clinton first!


Ultimate Yota Bash on Obama Fail. OK, I cannot skip a reply to this thread anymore. (I'll use lance's reply in this case, but there are so many others like this.)

No, it is based on his achievements in the work he did prior. C'mon, is it just normal for everyone to just boitch needlessly about who ever's currently in office?

Bush ran 3 companies into the ground before he ran our treasury down, how about that thought.

Give the man some time, Clinton f'd some stuff up pretty good himself, but time has shown his merits, same will go for Bush and Obama some day. Lighten up with this guys, it's getting old.

Instead of griping, try to step to that level and fix what you see wrong. I would enjoy this topic so much more if it wasn't full of inverse supposition and subjective views.

Show me why, but in a less bashing way and I like others, might be more willing to listen. Doing things like this just makes the forum look mean and lacking a full view of things.

..and no, I am not a democrat, nor am I a republican. Let the man do some work a little more, things are still pretty f'd up and it is never a good thing to have to take over a mess. Let blame be dealt when appropriate and evidenced is all.


Doing something, how about talking about it? Part of the problem is the misinformation going around and the media's failure of covering the issues due to their slant. Yes, bush screwed things up, but obama is not doing anything different, he's just continuing the path of bush.

I don't want to give him time because he has shown that, with the time he HAS had, to not make anything better. Until he actually starts listening to people and start having real debates about his policies, I don't want to give him "time" :shake:



Read up: http://www.biography.com/articles/Barack-Obama-12782369

Now, you all can continue your bash and jibs, fine. FWIW I say give the guy his chance, it hasn't even been a year and everyone considers themselves a pundit.

Put up or shut up. If you want to do better, then instead of spending such an inordinate time complaining, start at your local level and do something and have something to show for it.

Why in this case, I will give some credit to Lance and Chris's comments, and justifiably reply to them. All of us should be so good as to organize an event such as Pismo.. Imagine then if aside from organising it, we were to put some advocacy energy into the retention of access, or even better, bust out a potato sack and pick up 3 loads worth of trash and recycle what can and properly dispose of the rest.

Show me your civic responsibilities before you go throwing stones like "voted present" and other misplaced examples.

Presidency is a big job, that isn't in debate here. What is it seems is his worthyness. Get past it or organize an impeachment process. Let your actions speak better than your words.


Again, no, I don't want to "give him time" if he's going to continue what he's been doing.

I have been talking to friends, family members, getting them to educate themselves more and not take the news media at face value. What do you think this thread was about? JUST obama? Nope, it's about the government and the problems it has, and is continuing to make. Obama is brought up because he IS the president, and he's doing a very poor job at it.

You need to get off your high horse before you start throwing around "civic responsibilities", just because I started a thread doesn't mean you can jump in and try to paint me as a good-for-nothing internet complainer.

Lastly, you don't think obama's "worthiness" has anything to do with a presidency, then you are wrong. And please spare me your "actions speak louder than words" crap :roll:

Yes they do, but what is wrong with typing my feelings on the internet? Just because I created this thread means nothing to you because you are making a pre-judgment that I have not done any "actions"

So, instead of attacking us on the notion we don't love "your guy", why not contribute information in this thread, it's a lot more helpful than complaining.

[fustercluck]

Norcal, If I could prove Pres. Obama saved 1 million lives in Africa would you think he earned the NPP?

[Small_words]

I'll bite Fuster. What are you getting at?

[fustercluck]

I need Norcal to answer.

[Obi..]

I've nothing more to add to this discussion. I have answered my points to your questions, even when repeated, my answers are still the same.

You all are set on your ideals and beliefs and anything further I could possibly add in would be redundant and pointless. Just continue on with your thread. My posts have done nothing to sway anyone into giving things an opportunity, same as was the case election day.

This has all been premature supposition of an inevitability. I am one to let the chips fall where they may, take risks and be fearless about things. I cannot force that upon others. If you all feel things are bad and will get worse, you will continue along a path to ensure that. It's called a self-realizing prophecy. It can be a very powerful force, and when taken in a deconstructive manner will do nothing to help all involved. I prefer a prospective approach and have not seen it here, and wanted to merely suggest it is all.

I hope for our sakes things work out and this country flourishes is all. I'm out, this has gone totally Godwin's.

[slosurfer]

I just got home from being gone all day and am just skim reading right now, but this quote below is my exact reason why he should not have been nominated nor have received the Nobel Peace Prize!



You are judging before it is time to do so. All things in good time.


He was nominated, judged, and AWARDED before it was time to do so! THANK YOU for proving my point with your own logic. I have never said that he may or may not EVER deserve it, but he certainly does not deserve it for what he had only done prior to Feb. 2009 (it very well may be a good start towards one, but it certainly does not merit it).

I came into this thread after you said it was a "FAIL" that we thought he didn't deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, I have not mentioned anything about what he has done in the office of the Presidency, so all your talk about give him a chance, have some foresight to see what he will do, etc... has absolutely nothing to do with you defending his receiving the NPP, nor does it have anything to do with Bush, nor anyone else. It purely has to do with, what did he do prior to Feb. 2009 to deserve the NPP? By the way, this is being asked not just by Far Right Extremists, but by many people of all political backgrounds, race, age, etc... The artists that I was having this discussion with, are staunch Obama supporters and would eat his turds if they had the chance, and they all thought it was BS that he got this award. They all say that down the road he will deserve one, but not for what he had done prior.

By the way, I just stopped this post to read the link you posted twice as a source for why he deserved it. So far the points made in the article are; community organizer, opposed Bush on the war, cofounded a bill about destroying more nukes, some veterans stuff, Katrina stuff, so basically, the only two international peace points are: 1. Opposed Bush on the war (failed to mention that he has flip flopped back and forth on voting for and against continueing spending on the war while he was a senator :laugh:) and 2. Cofounded a bill about destroying more nukes. :headscratch: I bet the guy who cofounded that bill probably has 1 or 2 other accomplishments that may have been international peace related, how come he didn't get a prize? Heck Biden, has way more international peace related accomplishments than Obama! That bumbling fool has flown back and forth over that pond so many times talking with other leaders in his political career, it's insane!

[oly884]

I've nothing more to add to this discussion. I have answered my points to your questions, even when repeated, my answers are still the same.

You all are set on your ideals and beliefs and anything further I could possibly add in would be redundant and pointless. Just continue on with your thread. My posts have done nothing to sway anyone into giving things an opportunity, same as was the case election day.

This has all been premature supposition of an inevitability. I am one to let the chips fall where they may, take risks and be fearless about things. I cannot force that upon others. If you all feel things are bad and will get worse, you will continue along a path to ensure that. It's called a self-realizing prophecy. It can be a very powerful force, and when taken in a deconstructive manner will do nothing to help all involved. I prefer a prospective approach and have not seen it here, and wanted to merely suggest it is all.

I hope for our sakes things work out and this country flourishes is all. I'm out, this has gone totally Godwin's.


Norcalborn, how about you address my post? You seem so interested in coming here to "stir the pot" and then leave rather than have a civil discussion.

I don't like Obama, I don't like his policies, nor do I like the incredible amount of spending he has done. If you have a problem with people having their own opinions, then maybe you should stay away from political threads... You need to deal with the fact that not everyone is in love with Obama such as you. If you want to debate what we have said, then do so, provide us with proof that he HAS done something to deserve the NPP.

But spare me your "give him an opportunity" stuff.

[fustercluck]

"You see these dictators on their pedestals, surrounded by the bayonets of their soldiers and the truncheons of their police. Yet in their hearts there is unspoken – unspeakable! – fear. They are afraid of words and thoughts! Words spoken abroad, thoughts stirring at home, all the more powerful because they are forbidden. These terrify them. A little mouse – a little tiny mouse! – of thought appears in the room, and even the mightiest potentates are thrown into panic."

Winston Churchill



I hesitate to wax more stridently persistent as do I try to avoid directing criticism toward a specific individual member of this board, so let me state that unless my specific question is answered by norcal, I'll assume a retreat from rational discussion is preferable to him.

There was a penetrating and illustritive point to my question. There was no hidden agenda to it beyond asking for an honest answer to a question establishing a standard to explore a logic sequence with a sound premise and mutual agreement.

The following is an observation not directed toward norcal specifically, but to all those who argue perspectives with gratuitous assertions and retreat under scrutiny while tossing accusations of hatred, ideological myopia or worse: When one's perspective is unsupportable or riddled with logical decay, he must suppress opposition and avoid examination by deception, distortion and omission. When engaged in a discussion wherein those tactics emerge, it is the blood in the water and a sure sign of imminent surrender.

[Obi..]

This is his wife. Shane is hurt. Someone threw a bottle at their lead rider this morning and they all crashed off of the pavement. He's "OK" but is at the hospital right now with a mild cuncussion and possibly whiplash/hurt neck. He'll reply when it is more appropriate and is gonna have to take it easy for a little bit.

i appreciate you understanding and sorry to steal his login (he asked me to let you know).

[Obi..]

Fuster and Oly, you have pm's. I'm Ok, and home for now, I'm just sending this to you two really quick and am going back to bed. Feeling like crud. :(

[Lee]

in case anyone wanted to see a good quality version of the video on pg 1,

Indoctrination Video [V. 2]: (No Background Music, HQ): NJ School Kids Worship Barack Hussein Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbxHe5zyrU#)


god i get the chills watching that.... ugh.

[CJM]

Sorry to hear you got hurt man, feel better.

[fustercluck]

Shane, take care and rest up. We can continue this anytime. Glad you are still with us after a crash like that.....and tell Mrs. Norcal she can steal your password and talk to us anytime :hillbill:

Edit: ....and save some of those meds for me! :flipoff: :hillbill: :hillbill: :ban:

[fustercluck]

in case anyone wanted to see a good quality version of the video on pg 1,

Indoctrination Video [V. 2]: (No Background Music, HQ): NJ School Kids Worship Barack Hussein Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbxHe5zyrU#)


god i get the chills watching that.... ugh.


Fritz Kuhn would be so inspired

[Obi..]

Shane, take care and rest up. We can continue this anytime. Glad you are still with us after a crash like that.....and tell Mrs. Norcal she can steal your password and talk to us anytime :hillbill:

Edit: ....and save some of those meds for me! :flipoff: :hillbill: :hillbill: :ban:


He's wincing while he's laughing, he says I'm worse and will put things more bluntly than him and get him banned. I'm on his side, but he can be a bit unclear in his answers. There is always so many other parts he keeps back, but never clarifies until later just to really put people into check-mate.

Logging out now so I can go sit and keep an eye on him tonight.

[Obi..]

Not gonna even try to go logical here, not until I feel a lot better, but here's some fodder to play with that we can talk about later..I'm playing both sides while I "can formulate my point in succinct fashion".

Particularly note I chose my two favorite people to illustrate the arguements...Moore and West. If you ever get the chance to attend a lecture for either do so. They play the fence-line to a certain degree while hammering a point home.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-b-schwartzberg/what-obama-is-doing-wrong_b_126563.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obama-must-be-doing-somet_b_110673.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/09/obama-nobel-prize-reactio_n_315690.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/09/obama-wins-nobel-peace-pr_n_314907.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/get-off-obamas-back-secon_b_316480.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/10/cornel-west-comments-on-o_n_316476.html

Cornell West on Barack Obama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXj3_pjTTwg#)

[oly884]

I cannot take Moore seriously, and I'm sure I never will. His views of the world are completely opposite of mine. In that article you posted, he said this:


The simple fact that he was elected was reason enough for him to be the recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize.


:lol:

No, it's not, perhaps for a partisan idiot it is, but not for a man simply elected as a president. If you really boil it down, what "peace" has he created? He has promised peace, but has yet to follow through with those things, and even then, we'll see how well that works. Anyways, enough of the NPP talk, it's clear you think he deserves it, where as I think he deserves nothing until he has done something. I equate it to giving kids trophies for just playing baseball, everyone gets a trophy... :shake:

Both arguments that you presented didn't convince me, in any manner, that he deserves it. It's either based upon "he's not george bush" which is a pathetic argument at best (and those that believe that deserve a slap in the face), or that "he's the first black president" which, while significant given the history of our country, is not a valid reason to receive the NPP.

Shane, you and I clearly have completely different views of the world. I believe in personal responsibility, that each man is accountable for his own actions, well-being, and safety. I do believe that people can function as a 'community' but should only do so out of their own free will and not have the idea of "community" forced upon someone.

I believe that if you remove the responsibility that a man should have, and put it on another entity (government or other people) that the individual will soon have a lack of purpose and drive. Worse yet, by forcing people to pay for those that choose not to work (whether it be through health care, handouts, and so on) then you create a class war where those who are responsible begin to have a grudge against those who are not, and personally speaking, rightfully so.

Life is about competition, survival of the fittest. When you prop up a group of people for this long, they'll never gain their drive back to be successful people. I can look around the country, heck, I can look at it when I walk down the streets of Seattle. People simply give up, and buy into the mentality that other people "have" to help you. It's a disgusting disease that has spread through our society and government to a point that it is bringing this country to its knees.

You and others may disagree with me, and you have every right to do so. However, that's what I believe, and what I have seen from the government, is a push in the complete opposite direction of that.

[fustercluck]

The dependant will always resent the provident when that relationship becomes exploitative.

[Small_words]

Shane, thanks for linking the video of Cornel. I hadn't seen the guy before but he was spot-on when he talked about transparency in donations.

Okay, fellas, what is the point of this discussion? Are we talking about Obama's presidency so far? Are we talking about his winning the peace prize? Are we talking about the fact that our country is in debt beyond our eyes to China (not a good debt holder) and no one is talking about getting us out of hock? I know some of these things are linked but it may be that NorCalborn and Fuster and Oly are talking to different points.

NorCalborn, you're saying that you're waiting judgement on Obama for more time right?
Fuster, you think Obama winning the peace prize is bs right?
Oly, you don't like the fact that Obama's policies so far take more power from the individual right?

[Obi..]

*Stupid time limit..bloody heck just lost my reply..I was trying to think slowly as this headache still isn't going away, and the shoulder hurts like no tomorrow. So if any of this is unclear, sorry, but I have to now retype and remember all I had laid out previously.

OK..let me address all three as best possible with one inclusive reply. This will be long and pretty much an essay.


I cannot take Moore seriously, and I'm sure I never will. His views of the world are completely opposite of mine. In that article you posted, he said this:

Quote
The simple fact that he was elected was reason enough for him to be the recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize.



No, it's not, perhaps for a partisan idiot it is, but not for a man simply elected as a president. If you really boil it down, what "peace" has he created? He has promised peace, but has yet to follow through with those things, and even then, we'll see how well that works. Anyways, enough of the NPP talk, it's clear you think he deserves it, where as I think he deserves nothing until he has done something. I equate it to giving kids trophies for just playing baseball, everyone gets a trophy...



Granted, More is an end unto himself and while serving the need to bring issues to light, he is more shock-jock than effective individual. How else would he make his living? :D



Shane, you and I clearly have completely different views of the world. I believe in personal responsibility, that each man is accountable for his own actions, well-being, and safety. I do believe that people can function as a 'community' but should only do so out of their own free will and not have the idea of "community" forced upon someone.

I believe that if you remove the responsibility that a man should have, and put it on another entity (government or other people) that the individual will soon have a lack of purpose and drive. Worse yet, by forcing people to pay for those that choose not to work (whether it be through health care, handouts, and so on) then you create a class war where those who are responsible begin to have a grudge against those who are not, and personally speaking, rightfully so.

Life is about competition, survival of the fittest. When you prop up a group of people for this long, they'll never gain their drive back to be successful people. I can look around the country, heck, I can look at it when I walk down the streets of Seattle. People simply give up, and buy into the mentality that other people "have" to help you. It's a disgusting disease that has spread through our society and government to a point that it is bringing this country to its knees.

You and others may disagree with me, and you have every right to do so. However, that's what I believe, and what I have seen from the government, is a push in the complete opposite direction of that.


Actually we are closer in beliefs than you give either of us credit for. What we differ in is specifics and approach I would like to think.

I never blindly and completely support anything or anyone, I do believe that the need for change and results is paramount here and everyone has to admit that the capitalistic drive that has made the U.S. so powerful initially, has also at the same time brought us to this point.

How, well through inexcusable lack of follow through in the area of accountability. MAdoff got off scott free as did and will continue to be the case, most auto manufacturers, real estate brokers, and banks. (*Brokers, Madoff..see a trend in words there?)

Admit it, one man's loss is indeed another's gain, and this country has been through a lot since, and let's be honest here, 1984-ish. Yes, I said, 1984, and no not necessarily citing the book, I hope we all can acknowledge some underpinnings that could have been seriously avoided having the resources available to forsee all of this occurring.

Remember this bit..


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

What has made us who we are today is a combination of things. Who we are and where we came from. What focus has been lost is the "..and Where are we going?". The simplistic furthering of a singular move towards the elimination of the middle class by the allowed exploitation of workers and outsourcing of jobs (while initially novel, actually will continue on and on as the owner will still want their cut, uncut and undiminished) weakening our economy further. Nobody asks to be poor, nobody asks to be taken advantage of, and certainly, none of us asked for our leaders to allow this whole mess to occur.

My belief is it has become at the hands of a demanding strive and need to succeed, the "where can I go" exclusivity, but distorted into an evil beast of capitalistic self heightening intent. Think about it, turn on MTV and watch the blatant marketing of lifestyles most cannot even hope to achieve. "Cribs" for example, better yet, the newest bit of crap, "Teen Cribs". Sheesh, like I care about the stuff. Robin Leech at least made it [LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS] useful. MTV exploited the crap out of this and now every coddled under 20-******* I work with and attend classes with is a whining ******* going "But-but I deserve (this/that)".

Note how is it that this nation still possesses some of the greatest minds yet does such stupid crap on a daily basis? How is it, no, why is it the likes of (Bill Gates for example, or any other who shares their bounty with others for the betterment of all) are able to so furiously support positive change yet still be defeated in overall change by everyone and everything else?

No, you don't deserve shizzle, but I will help you with the basics of what you need. Why is it you bail out early from work and class and get a C while I attend, barely able to make it in in time often, while sitting in the back, sit and stay engaged and get the "A"?

There it is, my approach to all of this is what does this country need? More so is the part of "OK, if I am going to be a little greedy, and focus some on myself, where can it lead me and help me contribute?". What is the accountability I shall hold not just to others, but unto myself here? What can I do or believe that can lead to things going in a better direction, away from all this self indulgence that has allowed things to occur while some basic things, like national security and strength have been passed by?

Change, pure and simple change is where I was lead to in that thought process. This way the opportunity has not been ignored and we can go forth knowing something was at least tried, right? In my case, looking to alternative leadership ideals that while not too far to either side, can possibly make things better, although not overnight.

The Peace Prize, well, that's honestly just fodder in my eyes, and the logic weak. What is important is that in some way those responsible honestly and openly acknowledge the fact that support is necessary (although to that degree, not really.)

Now, as to Oly's point about competition, absolutely, but let me turn that a little and I'll even use myself as an example.

Do I deserve less right to obtain my education because I am of Anglo descent? What about the fact that like so many of my teen/twent classmates I screwed off seriously while younger and wasn't ever more than an average college student, while having been an honors in high school? Is it harmful that I although not openly acknowledged am indeed the epitome of a minority now a days, a 30-odd, anglo, unemployed, father to be who is now between a 3.9 and 4.0 gpa?

No need to answer that, the school and state and my grantors already have.

Now, please look at things like this guys..

Does this country not also deserve a chance at change, even more so in leadership that can possibly lead us into a brighter future while having to bear the burdens of those who came before?

Again, never assume that we are so different, any of us here. We all have our own slant on things. Me, I want a future for all of us, and know exactly where I came from and what has happened since. I now also know what I am capable of and what I can do to be a part of it and better myself and those around me at the same time.

My forefathers, my legacy, given unto me was the servitude and blood shed for the existance of this country, right down to those that have not just served in the forces, but that have served at the highest level alongside those whose names are on our most treasured things, buildings, books, papers, transcripts, memorials, so on and so forth. My family. What they did and what I will do is this approach and belief.

It has never been nor ever will be my intent for the showing of my beliefs and action taken thusly to do any disservice to those that make this country up.

My family fought and served for those around us to have these opportunities I speak of and frankly if Obama has to be the one I feel can possibly do it, so be it. He like so many other things right now deserves the chance, for if failure should occur, my only regret would be not having given the opportunity for regret to occur.


Back to this topics title but let me make my point clear..

"We are not screwed. We let ourselves be screwed and still don't have any money to show for it! Something needs to change, and as drastic as all of this is for some of us, it is indeed a sad necessity to further ourselves while not selling ourselves short for not having taken the risk at all."

[Obi..]

Guys give me a minute, I'm fixing an edit.

[Obi..]

Edit done, I think/hope I got it all down clear enough.

[fustercluck]

Shane, thanks for linking the video of Cornel. I hadn't seen the guy before but he was spot-on when he talked about transparency in donations.

Okay, fellas, what is the point of this discussion? Are we talking about Obama's presidency so far? Are we talking about his winning the peace prize? Are we talking about the fact that our country is in debt beyond our eyes to China (not a good debt holder) and no one is talking about getting us out of hock? I know some of these things are linked but it may be that NorCalborn and Fuster and Oly are talking to different points.

NorCalborn, you're saying that you're waiting judgement on Obama for more time right?
Fuster, you think Obama winning the peace prize is bs right?
Oly, you don't like the fact that Obama's policies so far take more power from the individual right?


Discussing political issues is like herding cats. They will follow a drift at a whim. So this thread will likely take many divergent tangents simultaneously. Addressing them all effectively would take some kind of superhuman intellect. :hillbill:

I believe that according to Nobel's written will relative to his peace prize requirements, men like president Obama have not earned it. The shame is on the NPP committee, not on the President. I think the Pres did what he should have done. He graciously accepted it and pledged to donate the funds (hopefully not to ACORN or the like). The value of the NPP is diluted by awarding it to those who have not fulfilled the requirements or to those who have not surpassed the other nominees' accomplishments.

The committee awarded the NPP to help persuade/ influence the president of a sovreign nation to act in their interest. That is bad policy.

[fustercluck]

*Stupid time limit..bloody heck just lost my reply..I was trying to think slowly as this headache still isn't going away, and the shoulder hurts like no tomorrow. So if any of this is unclear, sorry, but I have to now retype and remember all I had laid out previously.

OK..let me address all three as best possible with one inclusive reply. This will be long and pretty much an essay.


I cannot take Moore seriously, and I'm sure I never will. His views of the world are completely opposite of mine. In that article you posted, he said this:

Quote
The simple fact that he was elected was reason enough for him to be the recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize.



No, it's not, perhaps for a partisan idiot it is, but not for a man simply elected as a president. If you really boil it down, what "peace" has he created? He has promised peace, but has yet to follow through with those things, and even then, we'll see how well that works. Anyways, enough of the NPP talk, it's clear you think he deserves it, where as I think he deserves nothing until he has done something. I equate it to giving kids trophies for just playing baseball, everyone gets a trophy...



Granted, More is an end unto himself and while serving the need to bring issues to light, he is more shock-jock than effective individual. How else would he make his living? :D



Shane, you and I clearly have completely different views of the world. I believe in personal responsibility, that each man is accountable for his own actions, well-being, and safety. I do believe that people can function as a 'community' but should only do so out of their own free will and not have the idea of "community" forced upon someone.

I believe that if you remove the responsibility that a man should have, and put it on another entity (government or other people) that the individual will soon have a lack of purpose and drive. Worse yet, by forcing people to pay for those that choose not to work (whether it be through health care, handouts, and so on) then you create a class war where those who are responsible begin to have a grudge against those who are not, and personally speaking, rightfully so.

Life is about competition, survival of the fittest. When you prop up a group of people for this long, they'll never gain their drive back to be successful people. I can look around the country, heck, I can look at it when I walk down the streets of Seattle. People simply give up, and buy into the mentality that other people "have" to help you. It's a disgusting disease that has spread through our society and government to a point that it is bringing this country to its knees.

You and others may disagree with me, and you have every right to do so. However, that's what I believe, and what I have seen from the government, is a push in the complete opposite direction of that.


Actually we are closer in beliefs than you give either of us credit for. What we differ in is specifics and approach I would like to think.

I never blindly and completely support anything or anyone, I do believe that the need for change and results is paramount here and everyone has to admit that the capitalistic drive that has made the U.S. so powerful initially, has also at the same time brought us to this point.

How, well through inexcusable lack of follow through in the area of accountability. MAdoff got off scott free as did and will continue to be the case, most auto manufacturers, real estate brokers, and banks. (*Brokers, Madoff..see a trend in words there?)

Admit it, one man's loss is indeed another's gain, and this country has been through a lot since, and let's be honest here, 1984-ish. Yes, I said, 1984, and no not necessarily citing the book, I hope we all can acknowledge some underpinnings that could have been seriously avoided having the resources available to forsee all of this occurring.

Remember this bit..


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

What has made us who we are today is a combination of things. Who we are and where we came from. What focus has been lost is the "..and Where are we going?". The simplistic furthering of a singular move towards the elimination of the middle class by the allowed exploitation of workers and outsourcing of jobs (while initially novel, actually will continue on and on as the owner will still want their cut, uncut and undiminished) weakening our economy further. Nobody asks to be poor, nobody asks to be taken advantage of, and certainly, none of us asked for our leaders to allow this whole mess to occur.

My belief is it has become at the hands of a demanding strive and need to succeed, the "where can I go" exclusivity, but distorted into an evil beast of capitalistic self heightening intent. Think about it, turn on MTV and watch the blatant marketing of lifestyles most cannot even hope to achieve. "Cribs" for example, better yet, the newest bit of crap, "Teen Cribs". Sheesh, like I care about the stuff. Robin Leech at least made it [LIFESTYLES OF THE RICH AND FAMOUS] useful. MTV exploited the crap out of this and now every coddled under 20-******* I work with and attend classes with is a whining ******* going "But-but I deserve (this/that)".

Note how is it that this nation still possesses some of the greatest minds yet does such stupid crap on a daily basis? How is it, no, why is it the likes of (Bill Gates for example, or any other who shares their bounty with others for the betterment of all) are able to so furiously support positive change yet still be defeated in overall change by everyone and everything else?

No, you don't deserve shizzle, but I will help you with the basics of what you need. Why is it you bail out early from work and class and get a C while I attend, barely able to make it in in time often, while sitting in the back, sit and stay engaged and get the "A"?

There it is, my approach to all of this is what does this country need? More so is the part of "OK, if I am going to be a little greedy, and focus some on myself, where can it lead me and help me contribute?". What is the accountability I shall hold not just to others, but unto myself here? What can I do or believe that can lead to things going in a better direction, away from all this self indulgence that has allowed things to occur while some basic things, like national security and strength have been passed by?

Change, pure and simple change is where I was lead to in that thought process. This way the opportunity has not been ignored and we can go forth knowing something was at least tried, right? In my case, looking to alternative leadership ideals that while not too far to either side, can possibly make things better, although not overnight.

The Peace Prize, well, that's honestly just fodder in my eyes, and the logic weak. What is important is that in some way those responsible honestly and openly acknowledge the fact that support is necessary (although to that degree, not really.)

Now, as to Oly's point about competition, absolutely, but let me turn that a little and I'll even use myself as an example.

Do I deserve less right to obtain my education because I am of Anglo descent? What about the fact that like so many of my teen/twent classmates I screwed off seriously while younger and wasn't ever more than an average college student, while having been an honors in high school? Is it harmful that I although not openly acknowledged am indeed the epitome of a minority now a days, a 30-odd, anglo, unemployed, father to be who is now between a 3.9 and 4.0 gpa?

No need to answer that, the school and state and my grantors already have.

Now, please look at things like this guys..

Does this country not also deserve a chance at change, even more so in leadership that can possibly lead us into a brighter future while having to bear the burdens of those who came before?

Again, never assume that we are so different, any of us here. We all have our own slant on things. Me, I want a future for all of us, and know exactly where I came from and what has happened since. I now also know what I am capable of and what I can do to be a part of it and better myself and those around me at the same time.

My forefathers, my legacy, given unto me was the servitude and blood shed for the existance of this country, right down to those that have not just served in the forces, but that have served at the highest level alongside those whose names are on our most treasured things, buildings, books, papers, transcripts, memorials, so on and so forth. My family. What they did and what I will do is this approach and belief.

It has never been nor ever will be my intent for the showing of my beliefs and action taken thusly to do any disservice to those that make this country up.

My family fought and served for those around us to have these opportunities I speak of and frankly if Obama has to be the one I feel can possibly do it, so be it. He like so many other things right now deserves the chance, for if failure should occur, my only regret would be not having given the opportunity for regret to occur.


Back to this topics title but let me make my point clear..

"We are not screwed. We let ourselves be screwed and still don't have any money to show for it! Something needs to change, and as drastic as all of this is for some of us, it is indeed a sad necessity to further ourselves while not selling ourselves short for not having taken the risk at all."









I'll address this later. For now, this country was founded on equality, not egalitarianism. Equality is that we will all have the same tools and opportunities. egalitarianism is that we will all have the same result.

Secondly in a dynamic morally capitalist economy, the equitable transfer of value, there will always be a middle class. As folks with greater skills, more drive and better behaviors excel and pass through the middle classon the way up, others without discipline, incentive or training stagnate and pass through the middle class on the way down. Human nature is to learn from consequence. Govt manipulation to remove consequence (eliminate the middle class) will only prevent mankind from refining his behavior and perspectives dooming him to a common cesspool of lower class while those is power are exaulted to an elitist class. This has been demonstrated reliably through history. One thing we cannot change in the gen. pop. is human nature.

[slosurfer]

Was trying to catch up on this thread this morning and saw this slightly creepy offtopic tidbit. :laugh:

I'm calling BS, who exactly told you I was there picking up trash?



*FWIW I'm well aware of what you were doing before Pismo. You weren't the only one there, right. I do know people in SLO.

[Small_words]

I also talk as a 30-ish year old man without a job and a baby in the house. Thankfully my wife has a good job that's keeping us afloat. Our country needs some serious changes and I dearly hope Obama gets it done, I just don't like his first few steps.

He passed a stimulus bill that is laden with incredible amounts of pork and didn't address the hardest hit portions of the economy, manufacturing & construction. His budget is nowhere near balanced and his numbers don't add up about when it's going to return to solvency. Now we're more in debt to China, which is one of the places so many of our manufacturing jobs are going. Health insurance reform is needed but so far the bills just increase the complexity of its regulation and increasing complexity makes it cost ineffective for anyone but the largest (i.e. already existing) companies to continue operation and also makes it much easier to make advantageous loop-holes which can be bought through any congressperson because we do an abysmal job of transparency of donations. How did Charlie Rangel afford a vacation home in the Caribean? How does Chris Dodd have a vacation home in Ireland?

The change that's needed is to have a better business environment. This isn't to say a better climate for the market, but for businesses. Small businesses pass on the most income to the workers relative to company income. Our small businesses have to ensure compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act in order to get a government contract regardless of whether they have any employees with disabilities. The Consumer Product Safety Act makes it nearly impossible for small businesses to make objects for children because they can't afford the research needed for compliance. So many of our laws are federal instead of state that the corrupt law makers taking bribes in the form of campaign donations can do whatever they want and there's little in that we individuals can change anything. I couldn't do anything to Ted Stevens of Alaska nor can I do anything to John Murtha of West Virginia yet both are corrupt. The laws they pass and money they direct affect me and my state but we can do nothing to stop it.

If Obama wants to actually change and help individual Americans he'll give us back our control by shedding light on the corruption in Congress and cut out some of the bureaucratic regulations that supposedly protect the individual but in fact make it easier for the biggest companies to operate...and outsource and screw us. The stronger our small business sector is, the better and wealthier our country is.

- Edit -

If our government doesn't give back control to the states and the individuals there will be a reckoning. I don't expect pitchforks, but several Amendments have passed by direct vote because Congress had gone too far. Besides, with the popular sentiment against both parties, how long will it be before a state tries something akin to secession?

[oly884]

Wow, a lot of posts!!!

Small_words, yes, I oppose the federal government's expansion and taking over of individual rights and freedoms. This isn't limited to one party or person specifically, and while it may appear to be, Obama is in the driver's seat right now and he deserves the criticism.

NorCal, perhaps we are not too far apart in our beliefs, I can't tell, but what I noticed is that you seem to be for change, of any kind. Whereas I believe in change, if it's in the right direction. A change of course can send you down a nice road, or off a cliff. I fear that feds are making the wrong turn, and I feel that history has shown this.

You said that:


...and everyone has to admit that the capitalistic drive that has made the U.S. so powerful initially, has also at the same time brought us to this point.

Yup. I agree. Capitalism has got us here, to an extent. It breeds greed, but ONLY capitalism has the ability to destroy greed. We, as a society, however have been brainwashed to 'accept it' and say, "it is what it is" throw our arms up and go on. Sadly, "change" is not what we need to fix this problem. Well, actually, freeing up the market more is what we need to do.

For example: If a road side vendor is selling apples, and someone starts selling the exact same apples for half the cost, the original vendor will have to either match costs, offer something else to entice the customers, or pack up and leave. Now, if people found out that the second vendor was selling them so cheap because he was stealing apples, then ETHICALLY, people should go back to the first vendor.

In order for capitalism to work, the consumer MUST be part of it, and realize that they have the control to end corruption or shady business practices. It's really as simple as that. People trash Walmart so much for all sorts of things, and that's fine, but they need to realize that they do have the power to change things. See, it's WE THE PEOPLE who hold the power of real change.

If we don't like a business, TV station, commentator, etc. we are the people who can have the most impact. If everyone quit shopping at a business, what would happen?

When the government gets involved, there's no "going under" as they can operate in the red indefinitely (well, not actually, but we'll probably see what that's all about in our lifetimes). The shareholders are you and me, and we don't have a choice to not invest in the "company" unless we want to go to pound-me-in-the-ass prison for a while....

So, as you see, that's my problem with everything going on, perhaps we need "change" but we don't need it in the form of a bloated government, or one individual. We need to realize that real, meaningful change comes from the people. And no, electing Obama is not what I mean.

So, to get back to my point, yes, capitalism allows for greed and corruption to take place, but we allowed it to happen as well. But giving the government the opportunity to "change" things will never, ever, ever, ever, do a better job at changing things than the people.

And to switch gears a bit:


Does this country not also deserve a chance at change, even more so in leadership that can possibly lead us into a brighter future while having to bear the burdens of those who came before?

Sure, it does, but not when that change is meant to alter what this country was founded on. When ANY president has comments like this: Obama Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth Audio Uncovered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck#) it concerns me.

Remember, change isn't always the best option. But maybe we should just let people touch the stove, because sometimes experience is the only way to learn.

[Obi..]

Was trying to catch up on this thread this morning and saw this slightly creepy offtopic tidbit. :laugh:

I'm calling BS, who exactly told you I was there picking up trash?



*FWIW I'm well aware of what you were doing before Pismo. You weren't the only one there, right. I do know people in SLO.


I can't remember the exact words and all of the conversation, but basically..whether you choose to believe anything I ever post or say (not that I really am gonna worry either way)..

It was one of my friends, a guy named Dave, his friend Vince, both members of SurfRider or one of their buddies (there was 5 of us chatting while drying off at Jack's/The Hook..basically Soquel Shore 41st area). They're a little older than us, in their late 40's or early 50's IIRC, We were chatting about my wanting to borrow Dave's Pearson so I could go along with them next time around. (LOL..I can't remember his last name, but he has an old pos VW Bus he just picked up, and his friends, one of them, has a green Caprice or Estate Wagon, how the whole converstaion initially started, and ended up going into my owning my 4Runner for trips, how I like it better than the wagon, how yeah, a VW van's cool, how about a Toyota Van, hey, there's this guy down there w/ both a Runner and a Van, know him?

Shane (Can't remember how I replied but basically was: "Hippie looking (beard-etc) ex-marine guy named Chris?"

Them "Yeah, he is out there a lot, even was picking up trash at "so-so and so"."

How else would I be able to have put that set of subjects into the post in the first place? I'm neither psycho or psychic, if I was I wouldn't need to be in this thread b/c I'd have my own path and/or answers already ahead of time. :rofl:

Admit it Chris, as active as you are down there, and in the online forums, that if A guy I don't even know, and have never met can figure out who I am via TTORA, with your again being so active and out there, it is more likely people know who you are.

Oly..

As to your post..OK, so capitalism has a place, then we must also acknowledge that..

In order to make money you have to spend money, correct? I'm not for open change, that is a fallacy that has been interpreted. I am for progressive change. In other words, the ends justifies the means.

Now like both of us have said, there are pitfalls going on, but are we, are any of us, at that level being able to see the demographic reports on where best to make the cuts and expenditures?

While I support certain things, my basic ability to move onto the next college level is being jeopardised by the actions of the senate and congress, and the state. I'm not saying I deserve more than anyone else should, but I still know things need to happen for other's to eventually occur.

[oly884]

In order to make money you have to spend money, correct? I'm not for open change, that is a fallacy that has been interpreted. I am for progressive change. In other words, the ends justifies the means.



"progressive" is a dangerous word, and the exact reason why I created this thread. Progressives, both right and left, are what is wrong with this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

They are the people I have the most issue with. The problem with their world view is that they expect human nature to "change" with time, but this is clearly not the case. Human nature does not change, hence the reason why the Constitution is such an amazing document. It can be applied as easily today as it did 200 years ago, and the PROBLEM is that progressives do not understand nor agree with that.

I'll get into the problem that is 'progressivism' in this country later, but for now:

What is your idea of "progressive change"?

[DHC6twinotter]

In order for capitalism to work, the consumer MUST be part of it, and realize that they have the control to end corruption or shady business practices. It's really as simple as that. People trash Walmart so much for all sorts of things, and that's fine, but they need to realize that they do have the power to change things. See, it's WE THE PEOPLE who hold the power of real change.

If we don't like a business, TV station, commentator, etc. we are the people who can have the most impact. If everyone quit shopping at a business, what would happen?


This video is a great example of somebody taking on a large corportation:

United Breaks Guitars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo#ws)

United Airlines broke the guy's guitar and refused to cover damages. The guy wrote a song and put it on youtube. With over 5 million views and clips shown on CNN, FOX, etc; the video has become a youtube hit and a PR nightmare for United.

:thumbup:

[DHC6twinotter]

An experiment I'd like to do:

Open a hotdog stand in New York City. Name it "Government Hotdogs" or something. Charge $7.50 for a hotdog.

Customer #1 walks up and asks for a hotdog. Customer pays the $7.50.
Customer #2 walks up and asks for a hotdog, but turns out customer #2 doesn't have $7.50.
To the dismay of customer #1, "Government Hotdogs" offers to give the hotdog to customer #2 for free. "Government Hotdogs" explains to customer #1 that the high price they paid for a hotdog was to compensate for the free hotdogs that were being distributed to those that couldn't afford it. Maybe people would get a clue?

Now, my company probably wouldn't last a long time. Nobody feels they should be forced to pay for somebody else's hotdog. So, we are left with hungry customer #1 that can't afford to buy a hotdog that is twice as expensive, we are left with hungry customer #2 that still is broke, and now we are left wit the owner of "Government Hotdogs" losing all customers and going out of business.

Just my $.02. :D

[Obi..]

Oly, I had a great reply set for you guys, but this stinking forum time limit system does way too much as far as logging out in the process of posting my reply. I am really sick of having to remember to copy my post prior. Between you and Fuster, if worst goto Cebby and cull the post I just made.

This conversation's great but the loss of a hard written and thought out post reply is totally fucking useless and annoying.

I am not going to try to even retype it, it took over 30 minutes to compose, and I have been logged in for only maybe 35.

[/RANT]

[Obi..]

Oh yeah, if I was just unclear, (sorry no exp;etives p;ease...) the stupid time limit to post a reply already!! :(

Mods, find my post that was prior to the last two.

Thanks.

*May I suggest that this idea be integrated?


Sorry, an error occurred while attempting to post your reply. Please log back in to verify you wish to continue with posting it.

This way, replies go onto the server somehow as a retrievable file, even if you meant to do otherwise, as it seems that it at this point like one from last night is completely now lost and this would resolve it.

That or show us how while using a mac to allow over a 60 minute login limit within a 24 hour time frame.

[Obi..]

Sorry to go O/T..but I am so tired of this issue and part of what I do hate about our setup.

Logging out, I hope that my post is found, or at this point I will prefer to talk rather than post...I spent this amount of time also trying to just retrieve it through my server, also useless.

Do I need to go old school and use a mail server to type it out first, copy it, and then post. ;(

[Crinale]

iv never had this time limit issue... when does it happen?

i have had this issue on other forum formats, where if you hit the "preview" button before you hit the post button it did not log you out... might be worth trying... (i would still do a copy/paste until you are sure this works with this format)

[Obi..]

usually when I hit a preview to edit/proof the post.

Oh well, whatever, instead of retyping it I figure I'll post this in here instead of in the "Current Song" thread..

LMFAO..so true! You gotta click the link, it isn't a Rick-Roll, they're blocking it from the embed.

re: Toby Keith-American Ride (Official Music VIdeo) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHuzRuFQFo0#noexternalembed-ws)


Oly and Fuster, well, Oly for this point, you give yourself too little time and need to do better than twisting a single idea/point I made into something bigger that it isn't.

Are you implying that if taken to extremes I am a progressivist then you're an angry luddite?

So, for anyone wishing to reply to something I have posted, reply with something that will do something other than make me laugh and shake my head. I put time into my reply, please give a little more so I can appreciate that you took the time and thought into reading my post. If not my reply's will be just as short(sighted). If not that will show me even more that you are not interested in conversation and intellect, that rather you wish to continue on this rant-slant..if so cool, like I said I will step away from the thread then.

[Obi..]

No, you need it to be hardware, like a hammer or pipe wrench, those have a great preset budget! ;)



An experiment I'd like to do:

Open a hotdog stand in New York City. Name it "Government Hotdogs" or something. Charge $7.50 for a hotdog.

Customer #1 walks up and asks for a hotdog. Customer pays the $7.50.
Customer #2 walks up and asks for a hotdog, but turns out customer #2 doesn't have $7.50.
To the dismay of customer #1, "Government Hotdogs" offers to give the hotdog to customer #2 for free. "Government Hotdogs" explains to customer #1 that the high price they paid for a hotdog was to compensate for the free hotdogs that were being distributed to those that couldn't afford it. Maybe people would get a clue?

Now, my company probably wouldn't last a long time. Nobody feels they should be forced to pay for somebody else's hotdog. So, we are left with hungry customer #1 that can't afford to buy a hotdog that is twice as expensive, we are left with hungry customer #2 that still is broke, and now we are left wit the owner of "Government Hotdogs" losing all customers and going out of business.

Just my $.02. :D

[oly884]

Oly and Fuster, well, Oly for this point, you give yourself too little time and need to do better than twisting a single idea/point I made into something bigger that it isn't.

Are you implying that if taken to extremes I am a progressivist then you're an angry luddite?

So, for anyone wishing to reply to something I have posted, reply with something that will do something other than make me laugh and shake my head. I put time into my reply, please give a little more so I can appreciate that you took the time and thought into reading my post. If not my reply's will be just as short(sighted). If not that will show me even more that you are not interested in conversation and intellect, that rather you wish to continue on this rant-slant..if so cool, like I said I will step away from the thread then.



I don't believe I twisted anything, you said the word "progressive" which spurred my rant on the real problems, perhaps it wasn't needed, but it is the reason I created this thread. The progressive culture is what is leading this country right now, and a very real threat to liberty. If you disagree with that statement, then please do so.

Whether you are or are not, I don't know. What you have posted here has lead me to believe that, on some level, you have progressive leanings. I'm still wondering what your definition of "progressive change" is, and while we're at it, how does it benefit society?

[Obi..]

OK, I know Oly's been watching for easily 5 minutes while I typed this reply that again is now lost..wtf.

Ok, this is my last reply and I am done posting after this. The bloddy kickouts suck big and I'm over it.

I am an Independent Republican. I am not a progressivist. Instead of answering further post a reply and show us that progress undermeans society as a whole and also find my reply please, i am not wasting any more than 3 minutes to a reply from now on. I give good points and stay on topic then this stupid forums program drops it..sux balls, and yeah, I even pasted it in, then seeing it was going ahead, went to another page to copy something else for a post on Mud..so no repaste.

[oly884]

OK, I know Oly's been watching for easily 5 minutes while I typed this reply that again is now lost..wtf.

Nope, not watching. Sorry your reply got lost, use the "Remember me" check box to avoid being kicked off.

Ok, this is my last reply and I am done posting after this. The bloddy kickouts suck big and I'm over it.

Once again, sorry you're being kicked off, if it continues to happen, write your response in word, then copy and paste.

I am an Independent Republican. I am not a progressivist. Instead of answering further post a reply and show us that progress undermeans society as a whole and also find my reply please, i am not wasting any more than 3 minutes to a reply from now on. I give good points and stay on topic then this stupid forums program drops it..sux balls, and yeah, I even pasted it in, then seeing it was going ahead, went to another page to copy something else for a post on Mud..so no repaste.

First off, why not answer my question first?

I'll post why "progressive" ideals are wrong for this country when I'm not a break and can afford to spend the time responding to it.

I can't find your reply because the forum doesn't save them.

[Small_words]

I'm not trying to stir the pot but the linked article isn't the first I've seen about our economy that says essentially the same thing. I know that the measure of a man's intelligence is the degree to which they agree with you and I definitely agree with this author but it really does make sense. Thoughts?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/10/15/storm_clouds_gather_as_dow_hits_10000__98736.html

[Small_words]

I've thought about the dollar value a bit more and I agree with the guys's conclusion that unless something is done to stabilize its value it will decrease in value relative to other forms of currency. If this happens it will be harder for the US government to raise capital by selling the bonds which support the dollar. This may result in less of the crazy spending that the government has been doing for the last twenty years. Who knows, it may actually help us long term. What are ya'll's thoughts?

[Ric]

what I think is funny, but its REALLY sad, not funny, this clown kept promising "change" I havent seen any yet, I was listening to Meet the Press this morning they talked about how the Deficet has gone up, the Debt has gone up, Unemployment has gone up, the only thing that has gone down, are the jobs, lol heres a screen shot:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd139/Rix4rnr/obamas1st9months.jpg

Wheres the change ???? granted, its only been nine months, but still

[Ric]

incase you cant read the chart, the first colum is when he took office, the middle colum is now, and the last is his "change" :shake: cant wait to see what the next few years bring.

[oly884]

I've thought about the dollar value a bit more and I agree with the guys's conclusion that unless something is done to stabilize its value it will decrease in value relative to other forms of currency. If this happens it will be harder for the US government to raise capital by selling the bonds which support the dollar. This may result in less of the crazy spending that the government has been doing for the last twenty years. Who knows, it may actually help us long term. What are ya'll's thoughts?


I definitely agree with that!

[Small_words]

I'm going to revive this thread because I think our current situation warrants it?

Does ANYONE think that we aren't screwed?

Health Care:
The Health Care Reform bill did NOTHING to address rising costs, which are due to us becoming fat bastards (which stems a lot from stupid farm subsidies that date to WWII), defensive medical spending, overhead costs of filing claims (bureaucratic complexity b/c insurers protect profits and consumers don't see a direct impact b/c health insurance masks how much getting tylenol from the doc for a fever costs).

Economy:
The reform of Wall Street won't do anything. The $50 billion reserve fund required by this bill would have disappeared w/in one week after this last crash. The bill requires no separation of risk between traditional banking and insurance operations and the gambling, I mean derivatives market, that tanked the big companies. Instead of encouraging companies to grow, our government goes crazy on spending, making it scary for any company to survive much less expand. Why expand if you don't know what Congress will do next when you could hunker down and survive a while???

Foreign relations:
Agree with Mexico when he insults your county by insulting Arizona. Do nothing to criticize China because they're our banker and you don't want to make your banker mad. Do nothing to keep Iran from going nuclear. Do nothing in response to North Korea restarting the war by killing hundreds of allied sailors. Hang back when the Euro is crumbling in spite of the fact that they are trading partners and partners in Afghanistan.

Environment:
Stop in to visit the Gulf Shores looking like Sean Penn on a photo op. Working on Cap and Trade, which empowers corporations by making it VERY much in their interest to lobby (buy) our politicians in order to get concessions on carbon which they can then sell on the market for a quick profit (Yes, this was passed in Germany and this is what happened)

I'm overlooking some things but these are the thoughts running through the mind of an unemployed man stuck in a state with no prospects for economic recovery, trying to sell a condo in order to get somewhere that's working. Oh, and the only critique I hear on my local news is that it's still raining, but nary a comment about how badly we're screwed.

Don't think I have any love for the Republicans though. Those idiots are letting Pelosi lead the country by allowing her to dictate the topics to be discussed by Congress. Also, instead of doing something productive, they actually investigated steroid use by baseball players. I don't care if Clemens used fish tranquilizers, do your job running the country. Republicans are also enjoying watching Obama's poll numbers drop, thinking they'll capitalize on it. They might, but they'd do better by loudly proclaiming policies and providing strong leadership, not nipping the heels of Obama.

[Ric]

Ive said it before, I said that if obama got elected, we will be SCREWED, even the obama supports back then are agreeing now, a few have even said they are sorry that they voted for him, lol
I really feel sorry for our kids.

[CJM]

I been saying were doomed for ages now, not many listen and thus we are screwed.

[calrockx]

We're not screwed.

But great Chicken-littling.

[Small_words]

Great job belittling, but nothing substantive offered. Care to try again?

[calrockx]

haha :)

Nah, just saying we aren't screwed.

[DHC6twinotter]

I just started reading the Declaration of Independence during my down time at work today. I was really blown away. It's amazing to see how much the ideology has changed since the creation of the Declaration of Independence. The parallels between the British Empire under King George and the direction our country's leadership has gone is pretty amazing. Kinda scary IMHO.

I would really encourage everybody to read the Declaration of Independence. Good stuff, and it isn't very long.

[Small_words]

Nah, just saying we aren't screwed.


Agreed, but that's only because nothing is permanent, both bad and good.

[Crinale]

I just started reading the Declaration of Independence during my down time at work today. I was really blown away. It's amazing to see how much the ideology has changed since the creation of the Declaration of Independence. The parallels between the British Empire under King George and the direction our country's leadership has gone is pretty amazing. Kinda scary IMHO.

I would really encourage everybody to read the Declaration of Independence. Good stuff, and it isn't very long.


:good: i did an essay along those lines in my english class this last semester... we are about as far away from the original ideals in the Declaration as we could be, and its a very sad state of affairs...

[calrockx]

I just started reading the Declaration of Independence during my down time at work today. I was really blown away. It's amazing to see how much the ideology has changed since the creation of the Declaration of Independence. The parallels between the British Empire under King George and the direction our country's leadership has gone is pretty amazing. Kinda scary IMHO.

I would really encourage everybody to read the Declaration of Independence. Good stuff, and it isn't very long.




I know, right??
I just hate it when Obama quarters troops at my place. And stopped me from electing my representatives. Oh, and that time he dissolved the house of representatives for (potty mouth) and giggles! Ugh!

[fustercluck]

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/files/2009/05/rr.jpg

[calrockx]

Oh, we're playing the picture game? That's easy!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/SickRantorum/GOP-seal.jpg

[Small_words]

"Declaration of Independence"
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
- Arizona, though Pres. Obama only called for the DoJ to investigate the legality of their law


"Constitution"
all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
- the health care bill bribery of LA and NE

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
- It says general welfare, not just of specific groups of people

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
- Why prevent Chrysler and GM from entering bankruptcy? That was the legal recourse for them but they were treated specially

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
- This means that trying to tax the bonuses paid to employees of bailed out companies was completely unconstitutional (you only get one chance
to do the right thing and it isn’t after the fact)

[fustercluck]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/f_obamaweedm_b4a1dcc.jpg

[calrockx]

Smoking pot? Meh, big deal. I'm ready for it to be legalized nationally already, and I don't even smoke.

We could post silly pictures all day, but it gets old kinda quick. Like arguing politics online, I suppose.

The point is we're not screwed. Please don't hate Obama more than you love America.

It's just that most on here don't agree with the current President in office. That's fine. But you can be reasonable too. Being a fairly liberal guy on all accounts, I'm happy with the direction we're headed. It's certainly a billion times better than the last administration. You know, on the issues I care about. (that could be dissembled to say I don't care about the Constitution, but that wouldn't be fair, now would it).

On the plus side, checks and balances limit what the President can do in office.
On the negative side, checks and balances limit what the President can do in office.

Tho, as a progressive guy, it's kinda comforting history trends in that direction.

[Crinale]

if by happy with our current direction u mean happy with the exponentially increasing, impossible to pay back national debt to pay for all Obama's plans and "change"... no its not all his fault, Bush spent a lot too, but Obama is increasing the spending from Bush's administration by a lot... currently the US owes more money than there is dollars in existence, real and electronic... tell me again we arent screwed?

[fustercluck]

http://pointriderrepublican.typepad.com/obama-not-saluting_1.jpg

[fustercluck]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e201/1fustercluck/obamablltw6.gif

[Okie81]

^^Whoop, there it is! :laugh:

[Small_words]

Labels don’t mean very much. Liberal lending policies encouraged the real estate bubble, but that doesn’t mean bankers are liberal. Progressive means there is a goal to be achieved but I don’t know what goals you as a Progressive aspire to. Conservative foreign policy would require careful deliberation before doing something major, like kicking off a war. My point is that labels don’t mean squat especially when you can make up your own meaning for the word. For example, if I don’t support the position of a self professed Progressive, then I would be Regressive but that doesn't describe me.

So, what has Pres. Obama done in his tenure that you support?