Blazeland Long Travel

[corax]

OK Pismo attendees - Did anyone get an impression or video of this guy's truck in action? He said he was there and even took an extra LT kit with to show off. Also says it's been in use on his and a few other trucks for the last 3 years or so. I've been doing some reading on the kit this guy developed and in theory it looks decent. Granted it's not super duty, it's not a TC Baja ready kit, but as recently as one or two years ago I've seen & read about budget desert racers using lengthened stock arms for long travel, so that helps reassure me of his methods. It seems like a compromise I could live with (easily replaceable parts/cost/install vs. established/widespread use), but I'd really like to hear some first hand impressions if possible.

Here's his site -> Blazeland (http://www.blazeland.us/)
2 threads from that other site -> Toyota Long Travel (http://www.yotatech.com/f116/toyota-long-travel-190603/) & Blazeland DIY Weld-up Kit (http://www.yotatech.com/f37/blazeland-d-i-y-weld-up-kit-194252/)

I'm guessing this is his rig
http://www.yotatech.com/image.php?u=48623&dateline=1252295656&type=profile

[corax]

In theory, I guess this should work on 4runners up to '95 and 4wd T100s since I'm pretty sure they all use the some upper and lower control arms - that would be a question for Nate at Blazeland though

[Scuba]

I saw it, if I had an older truck I would rock it. Looks solid enough for me.

[Seanz0rz]

i looked at the kit he had displayed i didnt see his actual truck though. it looked well designed and well thought out. i talked with him for a few minutes about it. he seemed confident in the product being used in much the way i know you would use it keith. not so much a desert race truck, but more of general high speed wash boards, low speed trail runs where the extra travel will help, etc.


under 800 is not bad for the kit. a TC kit will cost you north of 2k.

[4x4mike]

Didn't someone win a kit? Was it installed?

[slosurfer]

Nah, there weren't any blazeland prizes. He did have a set displayed by the main booth though.

[4x4mike]

Oh for some reason I thought those were raffled.

[troyboy162]

yea i talked with the guy too. for the money it seemed like the thing to do with an older rig. they looked very tough and he talked about some young kid jumping them (against his advise and design intention) and they were taking the abuse. cool guy to talk to.

[CJM]

I think it looks quite good and a good idea if you want LT. However the overall strength of the frontend system of a IFS Yota is to weak to really run in the rocks. Basically even with idler arm braces or the TC one you still have issues with steering and alignment.

I still prefer SFA, less to mess with and less to break overall. Cost wise its an excellent LT kit.

[corax]

Total cost / ready to bolt on, minus user sourced shocks:
1. Modified stock LCAs w/ new poly bushings- $400
2. UCA extension bracket / ball joint spacer- $200
(bolt on - UCAs not included)
3. Tie rod adjusting sleeves- $100
4. Braided S.S. brakelines- $75
Total $775 + shipping

But, with the DIY "kit" (http://www.yotatech.com/f37/blazeland-d-i-y-weld-up-kit-194252/) the price drops several hundred:
A. Lower Control Arm Weld up kit: $100
-Steel pack for LCAs (1 pair)
-Fixture construction hardware and materials
-Plans and Instructions
B. Upper Control Arm Extension Brackets: $200 pair
C. New Extended Length Tie Rod Adjusting Sleeves: $100 pair
D. Extended Length Stainless Steel Brakelines: $75 pair
Total $475 + shipping + user sourced shocks

BTW, when we were in high school, my roomie raced on 1/2 and 1/4 mile ovals. To get the negative camber they needed on the front outside of the car, it was common practice to cut/lenghten/weld the LCAs - given some of the piss poor shoddy work I know most of those rednecks did on their cars, I don't remember a single control arm failure even though the springs are mounted to the lower arm (weight bearing).

I think that since the weight of a torsion sprung Toyota is carried on the upper arms, the biggest stresses the lower arms will see would come from bottoming out.

I think any of the dozen sheets of 1/4" plate I have would work great to put the jig together . . . so (skipping the brake line extension in favor of a 1 piece flex line) for $400, I have to jig, cut & weld the LCAs myself. I'm thinking this would be a good xmas present to myself :D

[Crinale]

i spent a long time looking at his kit, and at his truck... the kit looks VERY strong... im pretty sure his extension is the strongest part of he control arms... and they are designed to use the t100 axles just like the TC kit. im still debating on this kit, or if i just want to SAS and be done with it...

[CJM]

I still say that overall the kit is cool as anything and the stuff he sells or has made into a kit is strong. But overall the stinkin other parts that may fail in the IFS arent worth it imho unless you beef them up too. IE TC idler arm, heavier tierods and draglink.

[Obi..]

I think everyone's said what needs to be said. That said, let me reiterate here and hopefully not have it be a bash or rant..

My concerns would be the heat cycling of the factory pieces, already (in my 4Runner's case 15 year's old, your's, 20+, correct?). Now, add in the stress from that coupled with the inherently stronger plate being put onto the arms to me just would make me really consider the overall value of the extra expenditure for the TC kit. TC's a proven product, with a long reputation of design quality and R&D ( ;) Release and Destroy?) to go with that.

I'd want to see more of the product in action, preferably under someone else's vehicle before I'd give them more credit. Besides, the fact you can get a "DIY" kit scares me even more, as it then removes any liabilities as far as part and weld quality, know what I mean. Oval track's different than off road and daily driven conditions. They inspect and reweld pretty often as each race things break, are you considering that part?

Remember our conversation in Ashland about my doing fatigue analysis on chromoly plate, tube? Remember that stuff and buyer beware.

[troyboy162]

contact him and see if hes got videos or something. the yota post he says"The kit has run the Rubicon, Fordice, Pre Run the Baja 250 twice, and has been raced in some unsanctioned bs races here and there"

[Obi..]

contact him and see if hes got videos or something. the yota post he says"The kit has run the Rubicon, Fordice, Pre Run the Baja 250 twice, and has been raced in some unsanctioned bs races here and there"


Doubting Thomas says "All on the same vehicle, or a specific one for each event?" The fact that it's correctly spelled "Fordyce" makes me wonder if he's even ever seen the trailhead.

Hold it I just found more holes in the logic..was that cute little idler arm brace also a "temporary thing"! What about the dual shocks with the torsion bar and the shock mount just is bolted up?! How many times has that cycled and the upper arm swung into the frontmost shock?

If you're gonna build something like that, and have the whole package look that way, don't go advertising it. It's like trying to call a street hooker a "High Scale Male Escort". That or seriously have someone with marketing and product experience proof your posts and content first before you make yourself lose sales..

Best part is where he says he welded it up himself, there's a picture of someone welding on a table with everything on top of some pegboard..ever seen what a little bit of slag can do to a shop towel, let alone a nice piece of easily lit fiberboard.. :spit: :rofl:

re: http://www.yotatech.com/f116/toyota-long-travel-190603/index3.html#post51223870


Originally Posted by Robert m
x2
this balljoint setup just looks sketchy as hell. seems like any decent sized hit from landing from even a small a jump would just rip this thing apart from the added stress on the stamped upper arms.

http://blazeland.us/images/double.jpg




It only seems sketchy untill you actually have it in your hands, view it from all angles and bolt it onto an arm. When I first built it it was a temporary thing I came up with to figure out geometry when I built my own LT tubular arms. Then I refined it and I started driving on it. Before I new it I was pre-running the baja 250 and building them for my friends. The thing works! Its been wheeled on for 3 years now and on multiple rigs in all sorts of terrain with out failure. What you see in the picture is the original one. I cut it out from my cadd file drawings with a sawzall and drill press then welded it up in my garage with my mig welder. The design has evolved since then and now everything is laser cut with interlocking tabs, its welded by a certified welder, and its professionally powdercoated. What you see in the picture is not showcaseing the UCA bracket it is just showing a dual shock option.

[Obi..]

*Reminder* Again, I am not deliberately intending to bash in here. I am giving my experienced opinion.
I would welcome the chance to both see and use this kit in person on someone's rig.

[troyboy162]

id rock it if they were for third gen. the tube arms cant be any stronger then those ones all plated up. the top ones not even load bearing but i wouldnt jump it, nor would i jump stock arms

[CJM]

^ thats the thing too, I wouldnt jump the thing.

I think for what it is, its pretty cost effective. But like I said the front suspension/steering system needs to be beefed up with as well as that will then be the weakest link.

idk really, im not bashing it-but I see the flaws clear as day imho. Perhaps someone will have to rock this kit a bit and see for ourselves. Then again we are putting in BJ spacers and having no issues with the stamped arms too, but thats billet aluminum and just an extension of the BJ. The added stresses from the UCA being longer like that idk about, I would prefer some kinda metal plating on the whole thing tbh to make sure it wouldnt fail. What about the mounts themselves, can they handle the abuse?

[Seanz0rz]

the mounts handle the abuse of the TC system, so i dont see why not.

[CJM]

the mounts handle the abuse of the TC system, so i dont see why not.


Excellent point.

What I dont like is the dual shock setup, whats up with that thing and why would he even offer it unless its hitting the shock? FWIW I wonder how much it would cost to get a set of TC arms to copy then return and have a set fabbed up in itself for cheaper? I mean its nothing more than very good welded metal and a BJ.

[slosurfer]

If you don't like the dual shock option don't get it. :shake: The dual shock system is a custom job and not needed to run the kit. Looking at it, the dual shock mount is the same one that would be used if you wanted to convert to a coilover. So, maybe you can't afford coilovers at the moment, so you run dual shocks w/ tbars till you can afford the coilovers. Both shocks obviously won't fit in the stock position so behind the arms makes sense (if you had one in the middle of the arm and one outside, they would have to be different lenght shocks, so the duals behind the arm makes it simpler to have the same size shocks). Also, I'm sure it's been cycled plenty of times to insure that it doesn't hit that front shock. From the pic, it doesn't look like it would hit it.

That idler arm brace looks better than some other DIY jobs I've seen and you can't blame the guy for trying to come up with other ways to make stuff. I could care less if he's mispelling stuff at this point as he's doing it all himself and trying to make it affordable. If he pays someone to proofread and do his website/take pics for him, then the price goes up. I learned a long time ago, spelling doesn't neccesarily mean much when it comes to how talented someone is with their hands. :flipoff:

I can tell you from looking at it and holding it in my hands, it comes across much better than what the pictures show (he also doesn't want to show too detailed of pics because someone might start trying to make the same thing). Also, you have to remember that the lower arm should take the brunt of most impacts as the lower arm is what hits the compression bumpstop. That's why most kits have a tube upper arm and not boxed, it doesn't have to be as strong as the lower arm. After seeing the kit, I'm pretty sure you'll start breaking steering and torsion bar stuff prior to anything with the upper arm.

[corax]

I'm thinking I might guinea pig this system with a set of junkyard lower arms and save mine just in case I want to go back, a $400 mistake that I can reverse wouldn't hurt that bad - we'll see how finances are in a few months after I think about it a bit.

It's the personal testimonials that are reassuring - people that had the product in their hands and saw it at work. The fact that there still isn't any video is curious.

[Obi..]

*I was just pointing out my initial impressions is all. I would rather have voiced them than not. Especially given that they are something to consider when buying something like this. Whether or not I am absolutely right isn't the goal, its to warn someone I know just in case.. :D

[corax]

Yeah, I know - I'd rather have a bit of skepticism mixed in to temper the excitement of new low cost long travel, it'll make me be a bit more careful with it and give some food for thought.

[Obi..]

Yeah, I know - I'd rather have a bit of skepticism mixed in to temper the excitement of new low cost long travel, it'll make me be a bit more careful with it and give some food for thought.


I appreciate your understanding and appreciating it. Glad to have been the jerk? :spit:

Let me know what you ultimately decide to do, whether it be on this project or even the possible move. This way I can see if you've done this how it'll handle the trails outside of Applegate and Jackson.

[CJM]

I think its a good healthy discussion, until one of us tries it for sure we wont know-but we can speculate all day long and raise questions.

[Crinale]

@ norcal - the quote u posted right after the dual shock picture stated that the picture was of the first one that was cut out with a drill press and sawzall, and was welded by himself... it also said that the kit is now laser cut and professionally welded and powdered... i held it in my hands, and the thing was beefy... and for everyone saying they wouldnt jump it, the guy even says thats not what its meant for, its meant for some high speed washboard stuff.. although there are accounts of people jumping it and having no issues at all ;)

[Obi..]

Corax..fyi..I saw a thread opened up in TOF and thought this explained things better. I don't even need to explain, right?
;) Be sure you run limit straps, oh, wait..it's supposed to be long travel, not wide track and similar travel. :spit:
"Can of Worms" rule applies here, be ready to have to modify accompanying items to fix this issue.
(*Shorter pitman/idler to compensate for geometries?) I might just pull my Losi LST out and play with the ideas, I have some material I could try and do a proportional mockup??


http://www.blazeland.us/images/blazesuspention_1_.gif

[Obi..]

*I probably should clarify for those w/o the experience so I don't look like it's a bash post.

What is happening in the illustration above is called bump steer and it's through the range of travel in what is considered the effective range of the steering link (s-curve movement versus a parabolic curve).

What this translates into is when the suspension is at the points of most movement it puts the stress forces incurred back into not just the arms, but the suspension and worse, the steering. In other words, you now have excess fatigue being translated into your tie rod ends, pitman and idler arms, and center link. All known issues on this generation of Toyota vehicles.

Now, add in the effect of the "Can of Worms" where you need to reinforce the rest of the system (frame points, esp at the streering box) and you begin to look at more time, labor, and materials involved which (as I hopefully made clear before) then puts you back to the point of just spending the money on a proven system in the first place, that (as I've yet so see shown otherwise) has a proven company behind it with product and business liabilities to protect them and the consumer.

Again, I'm just showing the facts and giving advise, carry on.

[AxleIke]

Just to throw in a few points:

This costs like 1500 if you buy all the stuff from him. Thats cool and all, but really, thats the cost of a low buck SAS.

If you can't jump it, whats the point?

At first I thought this was a cool product, up until the guy was advocating torsion bars over coil overs. I pointed out that this doesn't allow for use of CO's because he hasn't trimmed out the inner part of the arm, and asked if he'd be willing to do so. He replied that "torsion bars ride better and are the superior suspension component".

At that point, he lost all credibility with me, as he has obviously not done a lot with a torsion bar set up, nor suffered through the ride for very long.

Lastly, if you were to build your own, why bother with this design? It would be fairly cheap to built an LT kit like TC sells with a welder and a bender.

[Obi..]

I'll save quoting you AxleIke and say I am glad it is not just me that has reservations about the design.

Speaking of suspension, let's see an update/bump from your project. :D

[AxleIke]

My project is busy getting tweaks done. I'll have pics up after I finish healing from an ATV accident (torn ligaments in my left hand, in a cast).

Keep an eye out though. I've almost finished my design for an idler arm. Should be done with it by next season.

[Crinale]

i dont know where u heard that his kit doesnt allow coilovers, cuz his truck at pismo was on coilovers... he said several other guys are running them with the coilovers too... and you can jump it... just like you can jump a stock suspension... but if your gonna do much jumping, you gotta build an engine cage to keep the front end together... but thats with any long travel

[AxleIke]

Coilover stuff was on YT. Pics he showed didn't have CO's. I'd like to see some shots with the CO's on there, because, with my stock arms, they won't fit.

[Scuba]

Uhh kevin I dont recall that guy having coilovers on his truck at pismo, he had tbars and dual shocks..

[Crinale]

oh wait... ur right, but he showed me (at least on his installed ones) where he modified them for coilovers... sorry i was half asleep when i wrote that... lol

[slosurfer]

Coilover stuff was on YT. Pics he showed didn't have CO's. I'd like to see some shots with the CO's on there, because, with my stock arms, they won't fit.


Coilovers are mounted behind the arm not through the upper a-arm. He used to have pics of it on the website.

Edit: It's right on the website. :shake: http://www.blazeland.us/Page_5.html

[AxleIke]

He did not share those on the other thread. Intersting location.

[slosurfer]

While not ideal, I could see it still working pretty good once you got it dialed in. Not to mention, you could also still run a nice set of shocks in the stock location too.

[troyboy162]

someones gotta buy this thing. cheap LT is a sweet option

[slosurfer]

I'd be willing to torture test it, but I don't have any $$. :laugh:

[Obi..]

I'd be willing to torture test it, but I don't have any $$. :laugh:


Maybe he has a R&D sign up sheet? I would welcome the chance to see you have them on a 4Runner b/c if they're gonna fail, they definitely will under the added weight of that, much faster than a pickup. It seems you're out in the sand a bunch, so why not have your rig serve as the torture test mule?

[troyboy162]

I'd be willing to torture test it, but I don't have any $$. :laugh:


Maybe he has a R&D sign up sheet? I would welcome the chance to see you have them on a 4Runner b/c if they're gonna fail, they definitely will under the added weight of that, much faster than a pickup. It seems you're out in the sand a bunch, so why not have your rig serve as the torture test mule?


? these arnt anything new...he's had them on trucks already.

[slosurfer]

Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean they've been torture tested. :laugh: :flipoff: Maybe complete with video of the suspension cycling. :)

[Crinale]

it sounds like they have been tested pretty hard out in the desert, including (even against his recommendation) a decent amount of jumping...

[blazen8]

Hey guys,

I'm the creater of the Blazeland LT. I've been following this thread but have not chimmed in until now. There are a few incorrect assumptions I've read, "Doubting Thomas" statements comes to mind, but overall good discussion. I'll try to read through and respond to a few things on this thread over the next few days so stay tunned. In the meantime if anyone is interested there was a build thread done over the weekend and its posted on yotatech. I'm not sure if its cool to mention that here on U.Y. but here is the link.

http://www.yotatech.com/f116/blazeland-long-travel-buildup-196764/

[Obi..]

Bump..So has anyone here decided to take something like this on or not?

I'm curious to see how it all goes. :D

[corax]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll be buying the "weld-it-yourself" version at some point in the next few months. I already have a spare set of lower control arms to cut, and I just got a used set of 25mm SwayAWay torsions.
Before install I'm gonna make a jig for each control arm, try to fit all 4 jigs on one 1/4" thick sheet 30"x30" ;)

[Obi..]

Sick, *O/T..bring them back when you finally get off your butts and move back here.

[Obi..]

Bump.

I just wanted to make a note of congratulations to Nate for the feature article by Tim Lund in the Mar/Apr 2010 issue of 4wd Toyota Owner Magazine where they have installed the kit he makes onto their Grudge Match IFS 4Runner. I am looking forward to a long term review of the kit from Tim after he's had the chance to beat it up for a while later this year.

*On that topic as soon as I am able to nail down a time to head out to Pismo I still would welcome the opportunity to see it myself in use.

[blazen8]

I'm heading to the Pismo Jamboree next weekend, September 28-30th. Look forward to seeing everyone who makes it.

[Crinale]

Awesome.. should be fun to see the 302 powered yota again :P

[corax]

lol. I was looking for something else and this thread came up in my search list. So 9.5 yrs after initially considering the Blazeland WIY kit, I finally installed one

https://i.imgur.com/fJ2J7Lc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Nz1nvvH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7Fsmvut.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/38up3W1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/woXLKJA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KNdWXMs.jpg

[Seanz0rz]

Sweet! Looking forward to seeing it on the trails!