Oh oh....Do I have a leaking headgasket?

[DHC6twinotter]

Hey all,

So, on my way home from work yesterday, I put gas in my 4Runner. A few minutes after I put gas in, I noticed that I had a lot of pre-detonation (pinging). It was really bad. Now today, I drove the 4Runner to work, and since I got there early, I started poking around on it. I pulled the oil cap off and noticed a bit of white, milky substance on it.

From what I understand, the white, milky substance under the cap is usually a sign of a leaking head gasket. However, the 4Runner runs fine, no lose of power, no white or sweet smelling smoke, no overheating, no pools of coolant under the 4Runner, and I haven't heard any loud bang that would indicate a blown head gasket.

I did hear a couple of unusual noises though...both sounded like the noise an aerosol can makes when it's sputters as the liquid inside gets low. It wasn't loud, nor did it last long. Just quick couple sputter sounds each time. Noise was not the exhaust and definitely came from under the hood.

Also, I noticed that while the motor was cold, I had no issues with pre-detonation.

So I dunno....the white substance under the oil cap seems pretty telling to me. I cleaned the cap off before heading back from work, and there wasn't any noticeable accumulation when I got home (10 minute drive). It takes me twice as long to get to work, so maybe I’ll check it tomorrow when I get to work.

Could an internally leaking head gasket cause pre-detonation? Could bad gas have caused the pre-detonation and could major pre-detonation cause a leaking head gasket? Just coincidence?

I dunno….just thought I’d get you all’s opinions. Thanks!

[Obi..]

Been there myself, but without the milky issue, mine was leaking into the valley below the intake plenum.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3520/3757109572_0f43ccba48.jpg

Drain your oil, put it into a milk jug (*you should be able to get about 4 quarts in there at most) and let that sit for a day, watch to see if it separates.

Be sure to go ahead and put your drainplug and fill cap back so no moisture gets in there, and a big "Do not start, No Oil!!" note on your steering wheel.

You can also get a good flashlight and look around through the fenderwells and see if there's any pink or green deposits around the gasket/mating surface area to see if there is a leak and it's been enough to bleed through the gasket material.

Let me know what happens from there. If it's a head gasket, you might get lucky and not need a boat load of mill work on the heads and block.

If however it needs a lot, well, what better time to steal those 5 speed swap notes from me and have me send you the EWD info and do the 3.4 swap at the same time. :D

I know this sucks, but at least it isn't dead yet..

[CJM]

I would say its probably so, compression and leak down test are whats needed.

[DHC6twinotter]

Thanks guys.

If this does turn out being a leaking head gasket, I'm probably just going to buy a newer vehicle. I've been saving and planning on buying one anyways, but I was just wanting to wait another 6 months. I'm about 3 grand short of where I would like to be, so maybe I'd have to take out a small loan. It would help give me more credit history anyways, so that might be a good thing.

I really can't complain though...I bought my 4Runner 9 years ago for $2400, so I've gotten my $$$ out of it. Thank God this didn't happen 8 months ago when I was unemployed with a diminishing emergency fund. :thumbup:

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm still working 7 days a week, but I'll try to squeeze in some troubleshoot time.

Marc, is the leak down test the same as testing the cooling system with a pressure tester?

Shane, my temperature never got higher than normal operating temp, so I'm hoping my heads aren't warped and I won't need machine work done. But honestly...I'd just swap a motor I think. I'm tired of dealing with this one. :hillbill:

[DHC6twinotter]

From what I gather, bad pre-detonation can cause head gaskets failures, but could pre-detonation be a result of coolant in the cylinder(s) also?

What I'm trying to figure out is if I got bad gas from the gas station, which caused pre-detonation, which caused a head gasket failure. Seems wierd that I noticed all these issues just after I filled up with gas, but maybe it's just coincidence.

[Obi..]

Get a siphon and drain as much gas out as possible and throw in 10 gallons of high octane and see if it goes away?

[DHC6twinotter]

It has high octane in it, plus I added a bottle of STP octane booster. :D

[Obi..]

Only thing to consider then is dropping the tank skid and unbolting the drain plug to pull out any water, or pulling the passenger seat and fuel pump cover and sticking a siphon all the way to the bottom of the tank. Gas floats on water. :thumbup:

[corax]

Sounds like you just got a tank of bad gas - no problem, got gas, problem. What changed? The gas.

FWIW a bit of milky on the oil fill cap is somewhat normal, or at least not much to worry about as long as you don't have milkshake on the oil dipstick

[corax]

Only thing to consider then is dropping the tank skid and unbolting the drain plug to pull out any water . . . .

Gas Dry = alcohol
Alcohol is so common in gas anymore that a bit of water shouldn't matter as the alcohol will absorb it. If the gas station recently got "topped off" by the tanker though, it could have stirred up everything off the bottom

[Obi..]

*True, then there's the Rotten Robbie clause, if it costs less it isn't "The Same". We had a guys plenum off and the whole place smelled like varnish, compared to plain old gas. "Where'd you fill this thing up at?".. "Oh, at the place around the corner for the last few months.".. "When did the problems start?".. "About a month ago...".

Crap in the pickup or fuel filters was where I was also leading though.

[DHC6twinotter]

FWIW a bit of milky on the oil fill cap is somewhat normal, or at least not much to worry about as long as you don't have milkshake on the oil dipstick


Huh...that's good to know. The oil on the dipstick looks really clean. Maybe I'm freaking over nothing then. I'll drain some oil tomorrow and take a look at it.



Only thing to consider then is dropping the tank skid and unbolting the drain plug to pull out any water, or pulling the passenger seat and fuel pump cover and sticking a siphon all the way to the bottom of the tank. Gas floats on water. :thumbup:

I didn't know there was a way to access the fuel pump on the 2nd gens without dropping the tank. Is that cover under the front passenger seat? Only thing I've ever seen under the rear seat is the little hatch to disconnect the fuel line and wire harness. :thumbup:

I'll buy one of those siphons before work tomorrow, if I have time.

[Obi..]

Rear passenger seat, my pump's right there, strange yours isn't.

Drop that tank and sight where it is, then grab another hatch from the recycler, cut the appropriate spot in the floor, done and done.

[DHC6twinotter]

Pre-detonation is an issue I've had ever since I've bought the 4Runner. I run mid-grade and sometimes high test gas as well as 1 step colder plugs, and that has pretty much eliminated my issues....untill now. :hillbill:

FWIW, right now, I don't have any pre-detonation when the engine is cold. Motor runs great....lol.

Shane, I'll take another look under the seat. Maybe I overlooked it.

[Obi..]

*Sorry, going out to have some fun, here's why (http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=8508.msg81868#msg81868).

I'll see if I'm recovered enough tomorrow to chime back in. :D

[CJM]

Marc, is the leak down test the same as testing the cooling system with a pressure tester?




No, its a very fun test where you pressurize the cylinder http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/index.html

If it isnt super milky then its probably not bad-but ive seen vehicles (and not just toyotas) run with a bad HG for some time (in one case 2 years) an then finally give up and blow.

Do the tests, wont hurt you any. In the very least a compression test would be helpfull. This way you can see if one cyl (or more) has way less compression than the others-then you know somethings up. Leak down test is more accurate as it not only builds pressure but measures if it leaks. iirc the 2nd gen 3.0L trucks can have bad exhaust valves-which the leakdown test may identify.

[corax]

Pre-detonation is an issue I've had ever since I've bought the 4Runner. I run mid-grade and sometimes high test gas as well as 1 step colder plugs, and that has pretty much eliminated my issues....untill now. :hillbill:


Maybe you also have some carbon build-up in the cylinders effectively increasing the compression ratio - that would explain the ping and need for high test. Easy fix: run the engine up to temp, pour some SeaFoam into the intake until it stalls, let soak for a few hours, repeat (better would be dividing 1 can between the 6 cylinders and pouring it straight through the spark plug holes, let soak overnight, crank 1/2 minute with the plugs uninstalled but rags over the holes, reinstall plugs, etc)

[DHC6twinotter]

Well, I'm getting rained out for now. Looks like any troubleshooting will be put off till the weather clears out. I have a compression tester somewhere, so I'll have to figure out how to use it and see what my compression is.

I'm glad I put off fixing my brakes and tranny. :hillbill:

I found a green '99 4Runner Highlander 5spd for sale a few hours from me. Has more miles than I was wanting, but the price is good and I have more than enough in savings for it. I was kinda hoping to get a 100 series Land Cruiser, so I dunno.

I found a good deal on an IS300 5spd with low mileage not far from here too....

I'll see what's wrong with my 4Runner before buying anything else though.

[DHC6twinotter]

Keith, I did run a can of seafoam through it about 4 years ago. It smoked a lot and the neighbors in my apartment complex thought something was on fire, but it didn't help my pinging issues much. Maybe I didn't let is soak long enough, but it ran quieter though. It's probably time for another dose of seafoam.

[Obi..]

*Maybe you just need an '05+ DoubleCab Tacoma w/ the 4.0 and 4wd...

Just drove one earlier, with a buddy following in my Runner, then switched, both times it smoked the Runner.
That or I need a bigger engine, want my 3.0, but I keep the R150? :D

[CJM]

If the bed was bigger on an 05+ taco (not long or wide enough) I would be all over them!

[DHC6twinotter]

Shane, that's one of the vehicles on my possibility list...especially if I could get one with a 6spd and e-locker for under 13k. :D

Other vehicles I'm considering are:
'03+ 4Runner with the V8 and 4wd. (and no ulgy clading)
'99+ Land Cruiser with rear locker (2000 is better since it has a stronger front diff)
'99 4Runner Highlander with a 5spd (elocker would be nice, but might be impossible to find)
'05+ Tundra Double Cab 4wd

Or, an IS300 with a 5spd, but I'm leaning towards an SUV, especially an UZJ100. ;D

Anyways, maybe I'll start a car search thread once I figure out what the deal is with the 4Runner.

I'm taking it to a shop on Monday. I have no time to mess with it, and the weather is going to be bad the next few days. Labor shouldn't be too much just to tell me if my head gasket is shot.

[Obi..]

There's one here that went for 11k..Jeff's got it, and yeah, 6 speed, locker, and what I drove...sooo fun. Only thing I didn't like was the left sided reverse. I kept catching 5th..

If you decide to give up on the Runner, remember that Greg's not too far from you and is still doing 3.4 swaps.
(But that's an old topic from another forum.)

Lemme know, I'll call my cousin if you decide to sell as he wants one for himself now and is in your area.

[DHC6twinotter]

Wow...I didn't realize Tacos are going that cheap now. Honestly, I haven't really looked into it, but I'm going to have to really look into it more. Chris (slosurfer) let me drive his last year, and it is a nice truck.

I met Greg once...he's a super nice guy. If I did do a motor swap, I'd probably go with a 1uz, but any project like that will have to wait till I have a place with a garage. :(

I'll keep your cousin in mind too. I don't really want to sell it, but from a practical standpoint, I may not have a choice.

Anyways, I may be getting ahead of myself...I'll see what the mechanic says on Monday or Tuesday.

We might be getting snow tomorrow...yay! :D

[DHC6twinotter]

So, I just got back from the mechanic. They did some tests and said the head gasket is fine. The coolant looks about as good as it can be. They said the white stuff on the bottom of the oil cap was probably condensation, which happens on the 3.0 and 3.4 engines. I'm pretty happy, and I learned something new today. Well worth the $20 I paid to have them look at it. :thumbup:

4Runner is running horrible though. Pinging like crazy, and the engine runs pretty rough. If I have time tonight, I'm going to siphon the gas out.

Right now, I've got Premium gas, STP Octane Booster, and a bottle of Lucas injector cleaner in it. The guys at AutoZone gave me a couple bottles of fuel line antifreeze for Christmas, but I'm not sure how much additives I can add at once. Truck will be running on crack pretty soon. :hillbill:

So, I guess the newer vehicle search will be put on hold for a bit, unless this pinging issue ends up being something major

[DHC6twinotter]

Any suggestions what I should use to hold my siphoned gas? I don't really want to buy three 5 gallon cans. I have about 11 or 12 gallons in the tank. :hillbill:

[YotaFun]

Dan,
Can you do what we did at Jenn's?
Just find some other family members that need gas lol!!!

[DHC6twinotter]

I thought about that, but if the gas is bad, I don't really want to put it in another vehicle. I thought about getting a couple of 5 gallon buckets with the screw on tops, but that probably isn't the safest idea. :hillbill:

This brings back fond memories of that RV. :D

[YotaFun]

This brings back fond memories of that RV. :D


yeah it does!!
LOL!!!

[CJM]

I would try and use bleach, detergent, hawaiian punch, milk, etc containers.

FWIW the bottles the big 1 gal arizona iced tea comes in are really HD.

Not much else I could suggest to put it into thats larger-5 gallon buckets with lids?

[DHC6twinotter]

So, just an update. I finally had my first work-free day since Thanksgiving today. Yay! :confused:

I picked up a really cool siphon the other day, but it wouldn't work on my 4Runner. Not sure if there is a screen or something in the filler neck, but I could only get the hose about 3 inches in. Then it got stuck on the little door in the filler neck and I couldn't pull it out. Had to use a straw to push the door open so I could get the hose out. :laugh: :tapedshut:

Ended up removing the drain plug and draining the tank. I should have done it that way from the get go. I didn't even have to drop the skid plate. I drained all the gas out, and it looked ok...no sediments or fuel tank particles in it. I was happy about that. I didn't get a chance to put fresh gas in it though...I'll have to round up another gas can so I can buy some fresh gas. :D

Anyways, I'll update this thread in a few days.

Thanks for all the help so far!

[DHC6twinotter]

So, another update. The gas was fine. I guess me getting gas and the really bad pinging at the same time was just a coincidence. Since I didn't have time, a garage to keep me out of the cold, or the motivation to work in it; I took the 4Runner to a shop I trust. Here was my problem:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/DH6twinotter/4Runner/IMG_2755.jpg

Timing belt tensioner was toast. The cage gave out, just like my idler pulley did a few months back. Only difference is that the tensioner pulley is completely seized, and the belt was just sliding along the pulley. The belt was completely smoothed and looked almost polished, except for about 9 million cracks. :hillbill:

The loose belt and toasted pulley screwed up all the timing. Mechanic said the crank was off 48 degrees, the ignition timing was off 28 degrees with the distributer turned as far as it would go, and one of the cams had jumped a tooth. He was pretty amazed that it even still ran. And, except for the bad spark knock and rough idle, it ran fairly well. :D

So, they replaced the timing belt and tensioner, and they went ahead and did a tune up as well (plugs, wires, distributer cap and rotor, and air filter). It runs great now! Total cost was just over $580, which seems very reasonable. Labor the timing belt change was $300. Rest was for parts, tune-up, and a bunch of diagnosing. It was a bummer to pay that much for something I could do myself, but I guess that's the price of convenience.

So, lesson learned for me: Always change the tensioner pulley when replacing the timing belt. I knew this way back when, but I was being cheap and lazy....so, I guess I shot myself in the foot. :confused:

[Seanz0rz]

glad you got it fixed! at least the price isnt too much of a shock to keep the vehicle around for a bit longer while you find something else.

[Obi..]

Dan, lemme start by saying this: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff:

Dude, you have no clue just how lucky you are man, do me a favor, pick out some numbers for me to pick for the next Cali lottery b/c the 3.0's an interference motor, IOW, you blow a belt or kick things off in just the right amount you then get to buy pistons and valves as well as a decking, etc, basically a full rebuild.

Take care of you shiz, make sure the pulley's a factory only part, or if not, be ready to swap it out in about 20k. Tell me your waterpump, not the dummy housing the fan rests on, but the pump itself that the belt rides on as well as your thermostat is factory and also newly replaced as since the mech was already in there it is always a good tome to do them.
:wrenchin:

*If not if I make it out to Chappel Hill in March, and you're still less than an hour-half away, I will find you and kick you personally, then go wheeling w/ you. :laugh:

[slosurfer]

Wow, Dan, that's pretty cool and that was a great price to get it all fixed.

:headscratch: Norcal, the 3.0 is a NON-interference engine, isn't it? :headscratch: I thought with toyota, just about all the timing belt ones are non-interference while those with a chain are interference.

[DHC6twinotter]

Dan, lemme start by saying this: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff: :flipoff:

Dude, you have no clue just how lucky you are man, do me a favor, pick out some numbers for me to pick for the next Cali lottery b/c the 3.0's an interference motor, IOW, you blow a belt or kick things off in just the right amount you then get to buy pistons and valves as well as a decking, etc, basically a full rebuild.

Take care of you shiz, make sure the pulley's a factory only part, or if not, be ready to swap it out in about 20k. Tell me your waterpump, not the dummy housing the fan rests on, but the pump itself that the belt rides on as well as your thermostat is factory and also newly replaced as since the mech was already in there it is always a good tome to do them.
:wrenchin:

*If not if I make it out to Chappel Hill in March, and you're still less than an hour-half away, I will find you and kick you personally, then go wheeling w/ you. :laugh:

lol. I replaced the timing belt and water pump about 25k ago in the school parking lot, so they didn't replace the water pump. I'm not sure what brand belt and tensioner they used, but the part numbers were not Toyota. Belt part number TB-4154 and tensioner part number was 60097. Not sure who makes those parts. I would have preferred OEM, but they replaced the belt and tensioner without telling me, so I didn't have much say. I did use OEM spark plug wires though. :hillbill:

I replaced the thermostat about 4 months ago.

I'll be getting a newer vehicle in the next 4-6 months anyways, so as long as the tensioner lasts till then, I'm happy.

Shane, right now I'm working 7 days a week, but if I have weekends free by March, we should grab a bite to eat somewhere. I'm still 2wd, so wheeling is probably a no go for me. :D



Wow, Dan, that's pretty cool and that was a great price to get it all fixed.

:headscratch: Norcal, the 3.0 is a NON-interference engine, isn't it? :headscratch: I thought with toyota, just about all the timing belt ones are non-interference while those with a chain are interference.


I thought the 3.0 were non-interference as well. AFAIK, the only engines Toyota has made that have a belt and are interference are the older VVTi motors like the 1uz with VVTi, 2uz with VVTi, 3uz, 2jz with VVTi, 1jz with VVTi, and a handful of other motors. Pretty sure all the new VVTi motors are interference and use a chain.



glad you got it fixed! at least the price isnt too much of a shock to keep the vehicle around for a bit longer while you find something else.


Yeah, when they told me they had replaced the timing belt, I was expecting 600-800 just for labor. So, 580 for everything wasn't bad, and I know they spent a lot of time trying to diagnose the issue before they pulled the timing cover. They took fuel samples, and they said, "We checked about everything there is to check".

I had to dip out of my emergency funds, so this has probably set my new vehicle purchase back a few months, unless I decide just to buy a 3rd gen 4Runner. I'm pretty happy to finally have this running ok. My brakes feel better too, so I dunno if they did me a favor and re-adjusted my drums or something. :headscratch:

[DHC6twinotter]

BTW, the mechanic said they adjusted the air fuel ratio. How is that done?

Here's a list of everything they did:

-Take fuel sample
-Scope engine with diagnostics tester
-replace spark plugs (NGK)
-replace spark plug wires (OEM)
-replace distributor cap and rottor button
-clean air gap in distributor
-clean PCV valve
-replace air filter
-adjust air fuel ratio
-lubricate vehicle
-replace timing belt
-replace tensioner

[Obi..]

I could be mistaken, but I've seen a couple where the piston's been dinged by the valve, maybe it was due to the hydrolocking of the head?