HOLY @$#%..PUT ON THE NEWS!! TOYOTA'S SHUTTING DOWN LINES!!

[Obi..]

Shutdown effective immediately surrounding the whole gas pedal and floor mat issue!

I have never seen this kind of action over this type of thing!!

Not necessarily good news, but definitely cause for perspective over responsible action(s).

[DHC6twinotter]

So, I take it this is just a temporary thing?

Why would they shut down the lines just because of the floor mat issue? Are their sales being effected that much?

:headscratch:

[4x4mike]

It's not about the floor mats. They are stopping sales of 5 or 6 models (matrix, corolla, tundra, sequoia and some other one or two) because of a sticking gas pedal problem. I guess there are a bunch on the lots and the dealers can sell the cars but they can't be delivered. They are also going to be closing a few plants for like a week to try to find and solve the problem. The floor mat thing is something else and also includes Lexus models.

[DHC6twinotter]

Ah, ok....I guess I was out of the loop a bit. I was under the assumption that the floor mats and sticking pedals were related to each other.

[Marc P]

It is crazy at my work. We had to pull a bunch of cars off the sales floor, and out whole rental fleet is out of commission. The calls coming into the service dept are from people on the verge of panic.

Toyota is not being very forthcoming about the long or short term plan to fix this issue.

[Seanz0rz]

another reason to avoid throttle by wire like the plague...

[Obi..]

another reason to avoid throttle by wire like the plague...


Exactly my view. I've had a bad experience with one on a Buick, and recently a customer with one on her Tundra.

FWIW I am thinking there also might be a little financial underpinnings going on, since Toyota seemed to be fine publicly in the U.S. market in light of the whole cash-4-clunker deal. Any thoughts to that? If it were me, and I had to either accept financial support in the same light as others, or blame it on a major defect situation, which would I get more sympathy and support over?

[Obi..]

*I had a little epiphany this morning and want to go on record as thinking it is a frequency interference issue fouling the signal. Heck, if you can disrupt a r/c car signal you can mess up their system, especially with all the mw frequencies these days, not to mention all the covert or unpublished frequencies, right?

[corax]

I didn't think all the affected models were electronic control throttles. Are they?

I highly doubt this is a component failure such as interference or any other electrical defect. Electronic Throttle Control has redundant sensors on the pedal and throttle body, any deviation from the programmed correlation between the two and the whole system shuts down - either engine op is reduced to a high idle (enough to pull off the road) or in severe cases the engine is completely shut down.

Take a look at the pedals, from what I heard there is no pivot at the pedal itself just further up the firewall by the sensor. What this does is allow the bottom of the pedal to jam into the carpet or floor mat instead of pivoting at the floor mat during its course of travel.

(BTW, got a call from Toyota Motor Sales for a phone screening re: job opening for Toyota Field Technical Specialist position I applied for in the central atlantic area :D - not sure if I want to stay on the east coast much longer though)

[Marc P]

The pedal itself mechanism itself is the issue

[4x4mike]

I think this is what I remembered from the news. It is a pedal mechanism from China that is being replaced. They already have the replacments and are installing them a the factory (at least the one that makes the Rav 4).

[YotaFun]

I went to the Toyota guys here at school to discuss this.
Like Marc said, this shut down is do to a recall on the pedal itself.
Mike I don't know where the china thing came from but his is what I have heard.
During the cash for clunkers, Toyota was producing car like mad and Denso was making stuff as fast as they could, but I guess the gas pedals weren't a priority.
So toyota outsourced it's pedal production to a company in Indiana I believe. (for liability sake I am not going to say the name, I don't know if the media has mentioned in either).
Well the company that they outsourced these pedals too are defective.
This company admits it but won't publicly admit it, and doesn't wan Toyota to admiit or they will sue them.

So the reason Toyota has haulted production is due to the fact that they want all there denso pedals to replace this other companies pedals on cars already out that are equipped with thus companies pedal.

The cars that are afected a usually the ones produced here in the US.

Honestly we have the media to thank for the great panic.
I mean can anyone recall any other recall in the history of he automotive industry to get this media coverage?
I don't think the ford/firestone recall or the audi close brake pedal issue.

[4x4mike]

They mention condensation and not an interferance with the drive by wire.
Link (http://www.kcra.com/automotive/22305727/detail.html)

I swear I heard China somewhere. This has information on the manufacturer and the plant.
Link (http://www.kcra.com/automotive/22348369/detail.html)

Edit: With further reading I think the China thing was regarding recalling Rav4's that were delivered to China.

[4x4mike]

Now there appears to be worry with the Prius brakes

http://www.kcra.com/automotive/22423436/detail.html

[Obi..]

*Call me surprised?? Let's see if it also connects back to my opinion on the Scion pedal lag and jumping. Their failure's mean prospects for those of us on the list of hires. They'll need people to increase their service and support staffing. :D

[Marc P]

We started performing the gas pedal recall at work today. We have a list of over 400 people that have called since Monday waiting to get this done.

I would like to personally thank the Feds for creating even more panic today.. :flipoff:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35216587/ns/business-autos/

[troyboy162]

man this is getting dumb. "hold toyotas feet to the fire" what a doucher, they are already doing alot for a problem that has effected nearly nobody in the grand scheme of things. 102 "possible" incidences of stuck pedals. id figure minus the BS, jump on the band wagon, claims thats about average for any car maker with as many cars on the road as toyota.

[CJM]

Honestly at least they are doing something about it.

Fords 5.4L was blowing out spark plugs like mad for 10 years and they wont even acknowledge it. Chrysler used teflon to line the oil pans many cars about 10 years back and the stuff flaked off and caused engine failure-they did nothing, etc.

While I am not happy about all these things going wrong with Toyota-at least they are making an attempt to correct them and thats more than I can say for most other car makers.

[YotaFun]

I think all this publicity is getting WAY OUT of hand.
I mean extremely out of hand.
Why is it that Toyota is being "picked" at all of a sudden?
They found the problem, the have a solution, they are fixing it, must we do more?

I don't know, I mean I know Ford and Firestone got there 15 min in the spot light when that recall happen, same with Audi for there's, but was it really this in-depth for they as it is now for Toyota?

[Seanz0rz]

here is why: we've had reports since 04/05 of tacos with "unintended acceleration" problems. at the time there were rumors of toyota sweeping it under the carpet and saying "nothing to see here, move along". similar reports of the same happening to priuses (prii) came out later. again, nothing was done to the public's knowledge. (who knows if there really was a problem? but its public image that counts here)

fast forward to late last year: toyota issues a massive recall and a temp fix (a ziptie?! cmon toyota!!! youre better than this!) for floor mats, blaming them for unintended acceleration problems. and i might agree with this. HOWEVER, now it comes out that the pedal is at fault (supposedly), so was the floor mat recall just toyota trying to buck the blame on consumers and dealers who installed floor mats incorrectly?

now the are looking into braking issues with the prius (thanks woz for creating even more public hysteria), this happens to be a simple software fix. but it makes you wonder if the software that takes throttle input and controls the throttle body, fuel delivery, transmission, etc doesnt also have bugs in it.

it is no secret that toyota's quality has been falling as of late. even when comparing my 98 4runner to an 05, you can see the differences. this is apparent with all redesigns that happened after about 2000. plastics feel cheaper, doors feel lighter, etc. personally i think toyota was driven to become #1 in units sold, they sacrificed quality and testing in order to ship more units at a lower cost. this is also one reason toyota has become boring. they make cars to sell by the millions, not cars that sell by the hundreds of thousands that are actually interesting. people always need toasters(corolla), but buying a fondue fountain is a luxury(anything exciting and slightly impractical, say Z cars, genesis coupe, etc).

old toyota trucks: sure the interior sucks (decent for the time it was made), they have no power, and features include a starter, a steering wheel, and doors. BUT, they always run, and never send you careening into a block wall at 120 mph unless you REALLY want them too.

when the firestone recall happened: i remember that was the top news story for a while. however it didnt have this feeling of something being hidden by the automaker. something stinks at toyota these days.

regardless of what is actually happening and has happened, it is the public's perceptions that matter here. i will still never buy a GM vehicle because of my perceptions of what they make. sure, maybe if i bought one it would be made on a wednesday morning, correctly built with all the bolts tightened and wires affixed properly. but i would still think it is going to fail, even if the engineer had pulled his head out of his butt when he designed the car. because of decades of terrible GM workmanship, engineering, and design, i will not buy one. Toyota is going to face the same problem in the coming years. especially because they are KNOWN for their quality, and for decades were the gold standard for non luxury vehicles in terms of quality, engineering, and design.

fwiw, the next new car i buy will be a ford. you know the world is topsy turvy when ford has better quality and designs than toyota... its cold in here, i think hell froze over...

[YotaFun]

I see your point Sean
Maybe when my head clears a little more I will have something to add...

Still sucks...

[Seanz0rz]

hopefully this shakes things up at toyota. i love toyota's old stuff, and very very frequently say "they just dont build them like they used to"

im not asking for the return of SFA and throttle cables made of steel, as that would honestly be a step way backwards. all i ask for is stuff that is better than it NEEDS to be. that pedal should cycle up and down 10 trillion times before showing appreciable wear, and should have at least a second level of redundancy. 2 sensors, computer looks at both and takes the average or if enough difference, takes the lowest reading. if one fails, then the throttle just doesnt work, instead of working too well. i still prefer keeping it as simple as possible, and really see no problems with a throttle cable and a TPS sensor. but i am not an automotive engineer, so what do i know.

and for the love of god, stop building appliances! or at the very least, build some exciting cars. take a risk toyota! how about a new supra?! it doesnt have to have a I6 in it. just something FUN to drive, and dont bloat it up with hybrid synergy drive, sat nav and quad zone climate control. just an engine, transmission (manual please? its cheaper!), a NICE steering wheel, a good am/fm/cd/mp3/hd stereo, comfortable(not too comfortable) seats, rear wheel drive, an actual throttle cable, plus the requsite air bags and other safety equipment, and under 3000 pounds. i know its alot to ask from a company who also produces sewing machines (no joke), but just this once, just try it, see how it goes. if its good, people will buy it.

[Seanz0rz]

stories like these arent helping, and really leads me to believe toyota is not being honest with us.


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Toyota has known about brake problems in its popular Prius cars for some time, going so far as to fix it in new production vehicles, but has kept Prius drivers in the dark about the problem until the Japanese government called for an investigation.

Prius hybrid cars coming off Toyota's assembly line in Japan have had an improved version of the software used to control the cars' brakes since January.

That's little consolation to those driving Priuses made before then which seem to be the source of mounting complaints about brake performance and have been linked to four crashes.

Prior to the revelation on Tuesday that the Japanese government was pushing Toyota to do something about mounting complaints about Prius brakes, Toyota had said nothing publicly about the problems.

In the U.S., the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced Thursday that it is launching a formal investigation into the Prius brake problems based on customer complaints here.

As of Wednesday, 124 Prius owners in the United States had lodged formal complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about brake problems with their cars. Prius owners in Japan, where the hybrid car is the nation's most popular model, have also lodged complaints about the problem.

A total of four crashes, two involving injuries, have been attributed to poor brake performance in 2010 model year Priuses.

Toyota issued an announcement Thursday saying it was cooperating with NHTSA's investigation. Toyota spokespeople in the U.S. have not yet returned calls and e-mails requesting comment on the issue.

The complaints have been very consistent. As described by NHTSA's Office of Defect Investigations "Consumers allege a momentary loss in braking during brake applications while traveling over an uneven road surface, pothole or bump in the roadway."

As one driver put it in a complaint posted to NHTSA's pubic Web site, "When braking, if a pothole or bump in the road is hit, the car seemingly jerks forward/accelerates for a split second."

Toyota officials in Japan described the problem as a "disconnect" in the vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less than a one-second lag. At 60 mph, though, a vehicle will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin to take hold.

"The brakes become little slow when you are using light braking under certain road conditions," Toyota managing officer Hiroyuki Yokoyama said. "But if you continue to step on them, the car will stop safely."

Yokoyama denied that Toyota was trying to cover up problems with the Prius's brakes, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal. The issue was handled as are most general quality problems, he said.

The software change was part of what Toyota called "constant quality improvements," Toyota executives said.

"Currently we are considering ways to explain this to our customers," Yokoyama said at a Japanese press conference. "Please give us time, we would like to come to conclusion as soon as possible."

Brakes in hybrids such as the Prius operate differently from brakes in most cars. In addition to standard brakes, which use friction from pads pressed against drums or rotors, the electric motors in hybrids also help slow the car. The process also generates electricity to recharge the batteries.

Complex moment-by-moment calculations are needed to coordinate the two separate braking systems in order to provide smooth braking performance.


http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/04/autos/prius_timeline/index.htm?hpt=T2

sounds to me like in the name of eeking out the best possible performance of the regen braking, it is losing braking power. i rather have brakes that work than 1% more regeneration of the battery....

[corax]

. . . . should have at least a second level of redundancy. 2 sensors, computer looks at both . . . . if one fails, then the throttle just doesnt work, instead of working too well.

That's pretty much how it's put together - if the redundant sensors don't agree (actually, one reads 1/2 the voltage of the other so connector resistance is taken out of the equation) it goes into "forced limited throttle" (high idle) or "forced shut-down" (engine shut off)

[CJM]

Thats pretty much why I decided on a Tundra in the end and an 05-06 (which apparently isnt part of the recall?) vs much else.

F250 diesel is nice and what I wanted but meh, apparently the low sulfur diesel is KILLING mpg in them. That and everyone I looked at no matter the miles had leaks and the frontends were kinda shot or the hubs needed replacing.

But if you think Toyotas quality is slipping your right-but dang Ford is right there with them. They STILL wont acknowledge that the 5.4L motors made from 97-04ish have poorly designed heads that are way to thin and if you try and change the plugs or even if you dont they can blow out cause the threads are to shallow. Cam position sensors constantly blow on the diesels, so bad most guys carry one and the tools to change it on the road (15 min job but still), even worse is the fact that the firestone bs if you recall was tried to shove onto firestone when it turned out it was ford who was using the wrong tire for a truck and the fact they set the psi way to low.

[4x4mike]

Kind of getting off topic of the OP but it's about Toyota in the news. Listening to the radio today I found this little story interesting.

http://www.capradio.org/articles/articledetail.aspx?articleid=7766

[corax]

http://www.capradio.org/articles/articledetail.aspx?articleid=7766


(copied the text over)

The Assembly Rules Committee approved the new policy today (Thursday) in reaction to mechanical problems with some Toyota models and the closure of a Toyota plant in the Bay Area.
By: Steve Shadley

Thu Feb 4, 2010


Aired 2/4/2010 on All Things Considered

(Sacramento, CA)

The state Assembly will no longer purchase foreign vehicles because of mechanical problems with some Toyota models.

The Assembly Rules Committee today (Thursday) voted to require the legislature vehicles mostly made in the USA.

Democratic Assemblymember Ted Lieu says there’s another reason for the new policy.

He says the state shouldn’t buy any more Toyotas because the company is closing a factory in the San Francisco Bay area...

Lieu: “I think its important that we try to keep and retain jobs in California. It’s important that if we are going to spend tax funds on these vehicles then at least fifty-percent or more of that vehicle should be manufactured in California...”

Lieu is hopeful a similar policy will be approved in the state senate.

He’s also asking state agencies to limit vehicle purchases to American made models.

[Obi..]

*OK, so they're gonna buy Tesla's then b/c there aren't any other manufacturers here unless GM or someone else reopens the plant. I'll be in that line easily, as long as my UAW placement is still valid.

[Obi..]

*So, after looking at things a little better this past week, and having seen countless advertisements from the big Ford dealer in the area I have come to the conclusion that people are sheep and that Chevy and Ford are all about raping and pillaging and here is why..

"We'll take your recalled vehicle and put you in a new Ford Hybrid Escape, F-150, (etc)."

Translation..

"We'll absolutely take your Prius, etc worth an easy $15-20k used value, give you a deflated $10-13k value, finance your new Ford for you, watch what the fed does while we store these recall vehicles over in Hayward, Ca's Clawitter storage lot, call Toyota for the required free parts, and paperwork to settle out for the labor due since it is now a federal intervention, pay our workers, make a profit from the person who traded in, then resell the certified recall performed vehicle for $20k. Either way, we make money up the ass."

Now, I will admit I admire Ford for their reconstructive effort, but this makes them shine a little less in my eyes. Next time I see Mike Rowe in Alameda, I might just bring this up before he buyds his coffee.

As for Chevy/GM, well you all know my opinion of them after pulling out of NUMMI first and closing down our oldest dealership to relocate outside the given zone.

Toyota will do what it has to do, they will still have my patronage and loyalty, even when I don't agree with specific things lately. At least they're somewhat visible about things, and even when not, you sort of have to admire the strategic planning going on.

My point here is IMHO, Ford is like a 49 year old Cougar, you know the angle, but don't see certain things happening until you're in bed with them.

~Respectful apologies to the ladies, but the analogy works.

[Obi..]

4 Rocko Taco and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Please tell me you're laughing? :D

[corax]

*So, after looking at things a little better this past week, and having seen countless advertisements from the big Ford dealer in the area I have come to the conclusion that people are sheep and that Chevy and Ford are all about raping and pillaging and here is why..


Sheeple will get taken advantage of and it might be a hard lesson for some, but ignorance is always expensive (not bliss)

BTW, don't forget to make a distinction between the manufacturer and the dealer - they're not one and the same.

[Seanz0rz]

brilliant on the dealers part. in the end, its about making money, and they have epic win in that category, even if it is because of toyota's epic fail, and the consumer, however bad you feel for him/her, is an idiot if they are so swayed.

[CJM]

Well I hate to say it, but all the negative publicity should drive prices of toyotas down for a bit. Which is good if your looking to buy atm like I am.