Mosque near Ground Zero, what's your take?

[oly884]

I've seen some pretty heated discussions about this topic recently, I don't really want to get into what Obama said about it, but suffice it to say that he would have been far better of had he kept his trap shut, but his loss, not mine...

Anyways, how do you feel about this?

I personally believe that they have every right to build the mosque there, and that the government in no way should attempt to stop it, it sends us down a very dangerous road if they did.

However, I do question not only the wisdom, but the intent of building it at that location. You'd have to not know about 9/11/2001 to think that building a mosque there wouldn't create any controversies, and since the developers were well aware of that date, you have to ask yourself, what were they thinking? Ultimately at the end of the day, regardless of what they were thinking, or what they are building it for, they do have the right to build it there. One thing it does show me is that, at least in this instance, these people have no concern for helping relations between Islam and the western world.

[troyboy162]

where exactly is it being built? some things ive read say within inches of ground zero. others say its blocks away.

in either case dont mistake it as anything less then a military maneuver by the Islamic world. this is how they do business. its a sign of conquering a nation to erect a mosque on sacred ground.

that said the agenda and the war is not what all Muslims are into its just that there is no separating military from religion in there way of life

[oly884]

where exactly is it being built? some things ive read say within inches of ground zero. others say its blocks away.

in either case dont mistake it as anything less then a military maneuver by the Islamic world. this is how they do business. its a sign of conquering a nation to erect a mosque on sacred ground.

that said the agenda and the war is not what all Muslims are into its just that there is no separating military from religion in there way of life


2 blocks away, and an important argument that everyone who opposes it should ask themselves is: How far is far enough? If 2 blocks is too close what about 3, 5, 10?

It's a devil's advocate question, but for those that do oppose it, it's an important question to ask. And to clarify, I DO oppose it, just not to the point that I want the government stepping in.

[Seanz0rz]

they have every single right to build the mosque there. no question about that. it is the most simple and fundamental foundation of this country.

HOWEVER, for every survivor, widow(er), orphan, etc. it is a huge slap in the face. you cant help but think that the location was chosen for a reason, as a giant middle finger to america.

i will not even attempt to make a generalization about the religion and its people, because you cant. each individual feels a different way, and im sure you could categorize it one way or another, but it just doesnt make sense to. i think it is true the vast majority of muslims in the country, and maybe the world are not against america. but some are, and in this case, i cant help but think these developers and leaders are in the latter category.

if they want to really build it there, go ahead. but dont complain when you have your place of worship vandalized every night. hate crimes go both ways, and as i see it, the attack was a hate crime, building a mosque there is a hate crime (or at the very least, radically insensitive), so hate crimes will happen back to you. and in no way is this right, but it will happen, so be prepared for it.

i suppose the city counsel could step in and make the surrounding areas off limits to any new religious buildings, but that would be on shaky legal ground. might stall them for a few years in the courts though.

[04 Rocko Taco]

I could not have said it much better Sean. You're right, they do have every right to build it there, but I wish they wouldn't and I think its a purposeful fark you to America, and at the very least horribly insensitive.

[Seanz0rz]

what it really ends up doing is hurting their credibility with the american people. so far, some muslims have flow planes into our buildings, and killed alot of our soldiers (actually thats partially our fault, but thats a different story for a different day). many people in this country have a very difficult relationship with the Muslim world for many reasons, but the two i just mentioned are high up there, if not the top.

so, you would think, in order to improve relations, the Muslim leadership behind this mosque would have said "oh, you know, i think its too soon. we will build somewhere else, that was insensitive of us, how about at this building, we put a community center or office building and dedicate it to the fallen soldiers or firefighters or children who lost parents, etc" after the first person mentioned that there may possibly be some controversy over this. but no. they push their bullshit on us, and in the end, they look like complete fools and in the eyes of some, terrorists themselves.

i say go ahead and let them build, on the condition that they dont come crying to us when it all goes horribly wrong.

[Scuba]

Sean took the words out of my mouth.

Though, I've read that the people trying to build are severly underfunded.

[DHC6twinotter]

I agree with you all. They have a right to build the mosque near ground zero, but out of respect to those who died, they should move it somewhere else. Letting them build the mosque on ground zero is like letting them plant a victory flag, and I personally think that is their goal.

Now, I do have a problem with this mosque being erected under the leadership of this particular Imam. Some of his rhetoric suggests he is sympathetic to terrorism (such as his refusal to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization). I also have a hard time believing our tax dollars founded his last trip to the middle east.



where exactly is it being built? some things ive read say within inches of ground zero. others say its blocks away.

From what I understand, it's close enough that the landing gear from one of the planes came through the roof of the building.

[oly884]

what it really ends up doing is hurting their credibility with the american people. so far, some muslims have flow planes into our buildings, and killed alot of our soldiers (actually thats partially our fault, but thats a different story for a different day). many people in this country have a very difficult relationship with the Muslim world for many reasons, but the two i just mentioned are high up there, if not the top.

so, you would think, in order to improve relations, the Muslim leadership behind this mosque would have said "oh, you know, i think its too soon. we will build somewhere else, that was insensitive of us, how about at this building, we put a community center or office building and dedicate it to the fallen soldiers or firefighters or children who lost parents, etc" after the first person mentioned that there may possibly be some controversy over this. but no. they push their bullshit on us, and in the end, they look like complete fools and in the eyes of some, terrorists themselves.

i say go ahead and let them build, on the condition that they dont come crying to us when it all goes horribly wrong.


Spot on!

If they are building this knowing the issues this would bring up, it's not hard to say that they are intentionally creating a larger rift in our society, and between religions, for a reason.

One can disagree with the people protesting the mosque all they want and tout the 1st amendment (which I agree with 10000%), but sometimes, while you have 'the right' to do something, it doesn't make it wise. Again, not saying that the government should step in, but in cases such as this, it's not whether they have a right, but it is "why?"

Let me give you an example:

Washington state allows for open carry of firearms: http://www.opencarry.org/wa.html

I work in downtown Seattle. Now, let us say that I follow every law and legally open carry a firearm, through downtown Seattle. What do you think is going to happen? I have the law 100% on my side (on papers, I doubt the police would be on my side...) so everyone should just sit back and accept it, right? Well, not quite, everyone is allowed to have, and voice, their own opinion. Part of the reaction would come from ignorance to firearms and the law (no surprise here in lemming land), but do you think that everyone would be touting my constitutional rights? Nope.

Openly carrying a firearm, through downtown Seattle, while legal, would be a very stupid idea because:

1. It would draw an enormous amount of attention, mostly negative, to me.
2. It would cast a negative light on people who not only openly carry, but all gun owners.
3. It would create a stereotype that all gun owners are 'crazy' or 'irresponsible'

I could elaborate on this a lot more, but I think everyone can understand what I'm saying.

[Seanz0rz]

exactly!

i feel the same way about the protesters at the military funerals. is it their 1st amendment right? of course it is! but it is incredibly stupid and insensitive, and just "wrong". but they do have the right, and these soldiers died defending that right, kind of ironic... go protest the war, its good for the country, but dont do it at a funeral!

[4ever4running]

I agree with you completely Sean. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I think it is pretty obvious that they have the constitutional right to build a Mosque wherever they want. And while I don’t think the government should step in and do anything, I still find it to be a huge insult to the families, friends, relatives, etc. of the victims of September 11th and the American people as a whole. The government has offered them land elsewhere in the city where they can build their Mosque, so why not avoid confrontation and build it somewhere else? They are just being stupid and confrontational and trying to get publicity. I just find it terribly insensitive and disrespectful of them to not consider the feelings of the American people. If they do build a Mosque there, it will become an instant target for vandalism, and rightfully so…

[YotaFun]

I have to agree with a lot that is being said.

Though I do have a few words to add being that I am a Muslim myself...
I am just trying to collect my thoughts and word it right in the sense that I won't offend anyone.

[troyboy162]

I have to agree with a lot that is being said.

Though I do have a few words to add being that I am a Muslim myself...
I am just trying to collect my thoughts and word it right in the sense that I won't offend anyone.


are you an american born muslim or did you grow up in a muslim country? its a pretty big difference in perspective. similar to american born jewish and growing up in isreal.

im looking forward to hearing what you think

[YotaFun]

American Born, and I am trying to find my best words without heating up anyone here.

[YotaFun]

explain to me what the difference is?
Just curious, having trouble seeing the difference.

[troyboy162]

i think you might believe i ment to mean that in a negative light and i didnt. i just ment to say that clearly your environment and experiences, as they relate to your religion, arent the same as a young man growing up in say afganistan or even kuwait.

not to nullify your opinion on the subject, just stating its coming from a different view point then the people who want to build this mosque in or around that location.

again i look forward to your view and i hope you have alot of input. america has sterio types of muslims that are not correct because of things like this threads topic. your word up on a board might be the first thing muslim that someone on here might see outside of the news.

[Small_words]

Avi, I'm looking forward to hearing from you and I don't think you have to worry about offending anyone since I think everyone knows you pretty well, for the web.

I take this mosque/community center in two ways: how I expect it to be viewed both inside the US and outside and as it should be viewed both in and out. The mosque could be perceived as being a crowning achievement of the terrorists. They can use our acceptance as a cudgel, paint our resistance as bigoted (which is a sensitive spot for us), and smile while the imam lauds the murderers of 9/11. The other way it could be viewed is how the Germans have dealt with the Holocaust. They have rightly shown the evil of the concentration camps and preserved them as memorials to what happens when we are intolerant. This congregation could look at 9/11 as a sign of shame for what was done in Allah's name. The choice is up to this congregation, but they should know that most of the world is watching them.

I think that since they have railed against bigotry instead of asking for acceptance that they have shown their intent. If a Christian group wanted to build a church on the Wounded Knee site and wasn't outspoken about how they wanted to support and reach out the Native Americans every news outlet would be screaming for blood.

[calrockx]

I don't oppose it.

[YotaFun]

I am getting there, sorry I am taking so long on my resposne.
I just start to write something and then another thought pops in my head and I start writing that one and then forget the first thought I had so it takes me a while to get back to it and finish it.

That and all the side jobs and family fun I have been trying to get done makes it hard to respond.

Now I know what its like to work 40+ hours a week and do tons of stuff on the side, my poor forum life is slipping away...

[Obi..]

..in either case dont mistake it as anything less then a military maneuver by the Islamic world. this is how they do business. its a sign of conquering a nation to erect a mosque on sacred ground...


Well said, I was avoiding bringing that up.

IMHO, No on a mosque, or any other place of worship.

Here's our thinking, build a memorial with a park or new buildings around there, yes. Just, please, not something involving religion. All walks of life were there that day, all lost someone or something. To isolate one singular religion is inappropriate, moreso, it's borderline arrogant or waffling under, whatever some people believe the merits to be.

I wouldn't push my beliefs as for religion on others and I feel it would be pushing that on us, and I lost a good friend that day and am still angry and sad to this day over the whole thing.

[Crinale]

this guy states it beautifully:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html

[oly884]

He stated that public opinion stopped the mosque from shadowing the olympic games.

Ok, well, if we allow that here, then it opens the door for public opinion to take guns away, ban freedom of speech, and worse. We have the Constitution for a reason, to protect the rights of individuals, no matter how vile their speech may be. Sure, one could argue that those things wouldn't happen here, but that's not the point. The second we start making exceptions to the Constitution, is the second that someone else will try to make an exception. And if, at the end of the day, all it takes is public opinion to change something, then we are screwed.

Why do I say that? Because there's a lot of people that 'go with the flow' and fail at critical thinking. Public opinion can be swayed so easily, the founders knew this, that's why they created the Constitution, to give all of us inalienable rights that the government cannot take away.

I say let them build it then, they can deal with the constant vandalism, the further separation they are creating between islam and rational thought, and if they want to try something again, we will crush their skulls.

[Crinale]

thing is, majority rule is the basis for our government. I think public opinion can be a very powerful tool. No i do not think that the government should step in and stop them, but I DO believe the American public should give them a piece of our minds.

[YotaFun]

I don’t know how exactly to begin wording my view on this matter.
There is what seems to be an endless amount of way I could approach this discussion.

While like a said earlier, I somewhat agree with what has been said, I don’t necessarily agree with all of it.

I agree that they have ever right to build it there but like everyone said, unfortunately there will be repercussions to the build.

I am glad everyone is on board with our constitutional rights, but I think most of America is starting to forget them, or there have been some many amendments and laws passed that the foundation of our nation seems to be crumbling….

One comment that sparked my mind came from Sean: “HOWEVER, for every survivor, widow(er), orphan, etc. it is a huge slap in the face.” Not to go directly against you here Sean but I am sure some of those survivor, widow(er)s’ and orphans, etc may have been Muslim as well. Granted yes it was not majority of the people involved, but you can’t necessarily go about believing that Muslim were not effected by this act either.

I want to try to shoot this thought across everyone mind here, but what if it was another terrorist group under basis of another religion had done the deed, would we be sharing the same thoughts if a church or synagogue were to go up in the location?

We also have to remember it was Al Qaeda that was behind the attacks, a group that Muslims do not relate to.

I don’t know how familiar everyone is with the area of where Ground Zero is located, but there is a Roman Catholic Church right across the street. Two blocks away should not be such an issue considering the tall buildings located all around, the Mosque would not even be within eye shot of Ground Zero.

I remember the first Muslim holiday that came up around the time after the attack, me along with every other Muslim in the New York area I am sure had our doubts about attending prayer that morning, but we still did, without assistance for protection from the local police. The only time I could ever remember police being called was to help with traffic due to a Mosque I attended being quite large.

Sean I hate to be bugging on you dude but your posts are sparking my mind to work. You made a quote about the thought that could have passed through the leaders of building the Mosque “oh maybe it’s too soon” or something along those lines. Curious, what is too soon, I don’t mean to sound insensitive here but how much longer are we going to mourn. Life will, has, and continues to move on, and around the world we have seen signs of this, one that comes to mind, the Berlin wall, not the greatest example but the first one that came to mind.

Also this comment came to mind to: “we put a community center or office building and dedicate it to the fallen soldiers or firefighters or children who lost parents, etc" IIRC Ground Zero was suppose to be built in that honor, yet what is it 9 years later now and there is still a hole in the ground? We as a nation were quick to mourn, but still we can’t build or even decided what to build in that location….

I know that last part sounded a little insensitive and I really didn’t mean it to, But I have family that are on the NYC police force that where there that day, I was fortunate that I didn’t loose family, but Muslims are part of everyone’s life here, they work in our major businesses, work in our streets, helping protect them, and I am sure there are few in our armed forces as much as we might not like to believe.

I think I started to go off on a tangent there, but I think we need to start freeing our minds a little more here then closing them and so should rest of America I feel. It seems one person mentions one great idea and jumps on the band wagon anymore, hence why we are having problems with our gun control, or off-roading, or anything else that we love but there is some law that has been put in place because after one incident happens everything goes all down hill…..

Again I am sorry if I hurt anyone feelings or enraged anyone here but I just think this is starting to become a publicity stunt, the Mosque wont go up and then the next thing you know, we will be waiting 9 years to figure out what will be built in a EMPTY lot TWO BLOCKS AWAY from ground Zero…..

Let the build it and leave them alone, they just want to worship a religion, we are allowing everyone else to do it near by, why stop them?

[troyboy162]

i like what youve wrote but the one thing that it dosnt adress is why they want to build this with all the people it will upset. i mean public opinion should have weight with the picking of a location for a mosque right? im sure it would be for any other religon. so why not these muslims? this is a national debate right now with very little sopport other then basic constitutional blanket complience....they are well aware they are not welcome to build and that we are just obligated to let them. so why build it there??

and the answer is this is a tactical move and has little or nothing to do with the need for a place of worship in or around that area. ultimatly they wont be stopped and it will please them to see that we are, powerlessly, politacaly correct exactly like Europe.

[Small_words]

Well said Avy and I have no problem with the mosque being built there. My only concern about the mosque is the perception outside the US. You said Muslims don't relate to Al Qaeda, but they have many sympathizers. This is not to say that the congregation shouldn't build, but they should know that many eyes are on them throughout the world. There WILL be those Muslims who see the mosque as honoring the Al Qaeda murderers and it will be up to the worshipers of that mosque to show what they think of murder.

This will all blow over eventually and we'll have been worked up into a frenzy for nothing. We'll temporarily forget that a lot of us have no jobs, few prospects, fewer rights than we did 20 years ago, and that one mosque won't change anything but enable us to rage in righteous indignation and feel the satisfaction of being certain about something.

[YotaFun]

I can somewhat see where you are coming from here Troy.
"Why build there?"
I don't know, I am not the leader of this Mosque, but I could try to find out.
I have a few relatives that are ultra religious and my father has constant contact with them, maybe I can see what the story behind the media is.

I don't think a place or worship has to have an ulterior motive or a reason to be built anywhere, but considering the nation and the location I think everyone is thinking that....

But now he is something to consider, what happens if they want to put up a Mosque near a school, or a park or some other build that holds some significance to the New York City Sky line?

Am I off my hinges here?

[troyboy162]

of course a place of worship dosnt have to have other motives, but this one obviously does or they would simply build it somewhere else.

i dont think a mosque is a unwelcome thing at this time in america in reference to your question of building it near other important areas. but if a school were to be destroyed in the name of alla, i would think it was inappropriate to build a mosque there as well.

you can have your father inquire about it but the reasonings are well publicized. they are calling it a cultural center and calling anyone who opposes it a racist.
1. why would you put a "cultural center" in the most culteraly offensive place for the host culture?
2. why pull the race card when anyone can see the issue here?

[Crinale]

I don't think a place or worship has to have an ulterior motive or a reason to be built anywhere, but considering the nation and the location I think everyone is thinking that....


In most circumstances, I would agree with you, however, in this circumstance i have to disagree. It is well documented all throughout Europe that anywhere an atrocious act was committed in the name of Allah sometime thereafter a Mosque was built in close proximity as a trophy if you will. And the fact that the proposed opening date for the Mosque is ON the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 (9/11/2011), just seems like an extra little slap in our faces.

Look at it this way: if we sent a bomb to destroy a symbol of their culture in the middle east in the name of Christ, then tried to build a Catholic church nearby, they would be so up in arms about it that people would be harassed, attacked, and possibly even murdered to prevent the building of that church. It is so one sidedly hypocritical that it makes me upset thinking about it, but it has been proven time and again.

I have no problem with a mosque being built anywhere else, but not there.

@Troy - they play the race card because everyone in America is so afraid of being "racist" that they will pretty much roll over and allow anything to happen, just to keep from being so. It's happened all over Europe, and now its happening here.

[YotaFun]

I try not to listen to the media as much anymore,
Because words can so easily get twisted its a joke.
I will probably be on the phone with my father tomorrow for a little considering the Day that it is.

If I know the Muslims in the community around there as well as I do,
The funding for the mosque and it being built would certainly not be in time for the next anniversary of that day.

Kevin can you show me these documentations of mosque being said as a trophy.
Not doubting you but just having trouble finding it myself.
And any time I have see trophy associated with a mosque its always been right towards this ground zero incident.




Also I am curious, how far does ground zero extend to everyone?

[YotaFun]

I liked this response I read by one person about the issue:

"Islam existed thousands of years and at least a 100 years in the US decades before 9/11.

A mosque is simply a place of worship where muslim Americans go in to do their prayers for 2,3 or 5 minutes then leave.They are people,have jobs and families.

Those who vehemently oppose the mosque near ground zero are not the families of 9/11 victims but republican fundamentalists and extremist christians who exploit the "unfounded" SENSITIVITY they themselves misled people to believe in with their malicious media.

Who allowed the 9/11 victims to link their sensitivity to islam as a religion and not to a small group called al qaida ?

When the jews remember the holaucaust do they refer to Hitler religion and churches ?

You may argue that 9/11 culprits used religion to justify their deed.Well muslims or any religious group cannot stop someone if they decided to act on their own interpretation. It would be different if Bin Laden was a muslim scholar whom muslims turn to for advice and consultation of religious matters but he is not. The greatest muslim scholar whom muslims listen to spoke against terrorism.

If i recall,shortly after 9/11 CNN broadcasted (or reported) Bin Laden's motive for the attack as : "In response for the US support of Israel in its aggression against the palestinians"
IMHO, that's a political statement not religious at all.

It is lame that some christian preachers jump on this issue to score some points against islam out of "religious competition" and market it to the mainstream as "sensitive issue to the families of 9/11 victims""

[troyboy162]

that quote didnt hold much water.

fisrt off everyone knows islam is a old religon. older then christianity im pretty sure.

everyone should understand muslims are overwheliming normal and a mosque is a "church"

no, 9/11 victims dont sopport this, thats absurd

al qaidas is sopported by multiple areas of the islamic world and we didnt make up the word jihad nor does anyone not know what it means now

hitler was sick and did everything for his country not his religion

palistinians are muslim and that is why islam and al quida sopports them

it is horrible that im sure some preachers are using this as a soap box against islam

..............

so is this really sopposed to open on 9/11? or is that just rumor? id imagine thats not true. eitherway no one can answer why it has to be there of all places and why no one was thoughtfull when they picked the location. if they were really naive enough to not understand how people would feel, then they do now but are still set on the location? none of that adds up unless there are other motives.

[troyboy162]

Kevin can you show me these documentations of mosque being said as a trophy.
Not doubting you but just having trouble finding it myself.
And any time I have see trophy associated with a mosque its always been right towards this ground zero incident.


first thing up on google was this artical. its recent but im sure its historical facts are someone valid
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1496/mosques-on-sacred-sites-of-defeated-enemies
its really not so far fetched to think this is whats going on. im pretty sure this is common practice for all religons in one time or another of there history. you come in to town, beat up the people and put your symbole where the golden cow used to be...pretty basic stuff when a religon is at the top of the food chain for a culture. im sure there are prime examples during the crusades of christianity.

[Crinale]

Avy: in response to your "how close is too close?": The building that previously occupied that lot was damaged by the fuselage of one of the planes flown into the towers... That is why it's too close.

I have a quote of my own:
"... a mosque is a fine idea -- someplace else. If the Japanese decided to open a cultural center across from Pearl Harbor, that would be insensitive, if the Germans opened a Bach choral society across from Auschwitz, even after all these years, that would be an insensitive setting. I have absolutely nothing against Islam. I just think: Why there?"

That pretty much sums up my feeling as well.

This article in the New York Post (i have no idea how good this reporting agency is, but the website doesnt seem like a tabloid or anything "psuedonews", but not being familiar with it i could be wrong) states that the scheduled opening day is 9/11/2011: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34EB0MWS0lXuAnQau5 uL

[Crinale]

although, i just found another article that simply states that the initiative plans to break ground before that time, which given the complexity of constructing a building of that size, seems more plausible to me.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2987556/large_mosque_to_be_built_near_ground.html

[troyboy162]

Avy: in response to your "how close is too close?": The building that previously occupied that lot was damaged by the fuselage of one of the planes flown into the towers... That is why it's too close.


ok thats why they are calling it ground zero. that makes sence now. i was wondering why the media wasnt really latching on to the whole two blocks away angle on the story. i figured it was just in the area of debris when all the dust was kicked up, but yeah if a plane peice actualy hit it then thats pretty dang close

[Crinale]

just a note, did some research, and the building (formerly a Burlington Coat Factory) had a piece of the landing gear from flight 175, that crashed into the second tower at 9:03am, crash through the roof, and through all floors to end up in the basement. Enough damage was caused to condemn the building, causing it to remain abandoned until now.

[YotaFun]

Gotcha

[YotaFun]

I am kinda done discussing myself lol.

I say let them build it and suffer whatever consequence they know they will endure.

I guess I feel it shouldn't be thought of being built for some ulterior motive, but just as a place of worship.

[Small_words]

Troyboy, I have a few points.

- Islam does not predate Christianity. Jesus is recognized by Muslims as a prophet.
- Al Qaeda uses Islam as a means of advancing its political/religious philosophy of establishing a Qaliphate again (Empire ruled by a Muslim king, enforcing sharia law).


Radical Islam caters to those who are afraid, like the KKK. It caters to old men who are afraid of losing control of their families by their children being independent. It also caters to young men who have no future and Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, offer pride and belonging. It also caters to the ignorant who know nothing about the west but what their ignorant Imam tells them and watching the scantily clad women on German TV and both lust after them and are intimidated by them. How many doctors have blown themselves up? How many husbands have dropped their masonry trowels and picked up a Kalashnikov? The problem is despair and fear, not religion.

Palestinians are supported by Al Qaeda and other extremist groups because its a way of attacking Israel indirectly. It’s a Cold War mentality of avoiding direct conflict but inflicting damage. If Muslims actually cared about Palestinians, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt would have open borders, but they don’t. Jews were buying land from underneath the Palestinians before the beginning of WWII. This was called ZIonism and the goal was to return Jews to the Holy Land. The Jews came with money, bought the land from the Syrian landlords, and evicted the locals, Palestinians. Muslims sold out other Muslims because it was profitable. Since the creation of Israel, every neighboring country has given everything but citizenship to Palestinians and instead kept them in settlements (ghettos) and deceived them with the hope of restoring Palestine to them. This is only to keep them out of their own country.

Building places of worship on conquered land is natural. The cathedral in Seville was built on a mosque after the Spanish retook southern Spain. The Pantheon in Rome was a pagan temple and made a church in the 7th century. I’ve been to a dance club that was formerly a church. You can comb human history for religious changes in places of worship and it doesn’t make a trend, it makes good business. Places of worship are expensive, especially the nice ones.

Your points about Islam have less to do with the religion than they do with human nature. Poor and ignorant young American men turn to gangs as a way of bolstering their ego and showing they’re tough. The same men call women “ho’s” as a means of moral control over women. Fearful men in Afghanistan turn to the Taliban for the same reason as Americans turn to gangs and these same men confine women to burkha’s because they want to maintain moral control.

[troyboy162]

all very good points. admittedly i dont know half as much about the Israel/Palestine stuff.

you surly cant blame the religion for this stuff as you are correct its all human nature. but that doesnt mean its not tied together by the same religion. have you seen the video of the mortar team that chant al-akbar or something similar? the religion is everything for these guys. while misguided and stupid, they are 110% muslims. its unfortunate since its ruining the worlds outlook on islam. but so is this mosque two blocks from ground zero. are the builders misguided and stupid? no they are quite focused and deliberate.

and yotafun no one wants to think of it as being built with motives but that is what it looks like when all things are considered. our laws wont stop this so its up to Islam to do the right thing even though it has the moral(western PC style) and legal high ground.

i truly do wish more people had the chance to go to afganistan/iraq and meet normal muslims but the exposure most people get are the tight plane regulations and mosques being built where a terrorist attacks took place.

in the interest of equal air time...heres a blast from the past featuring normal muslims
P1000531 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGUAO7N5QVQ#)

[93yotasr5]

imagine the world without religion!

[oly884]

imagine the world without religion!


Do you think that people would not be fighting any differently or as widespread as they do now?

[Ric]

would you want a child molester to build a house 2 blocks from your 6 year old daughter ?

[oly884]

would you want a child molester to build a house 2 blocks from your 6 year old daughter ?



I think everyone can differentiate between a child molester and one who practices Islam.

[93yotasr5]

I think many (not most or not all) problems wouldn't be going on or have happened.

[oly884]

I think many (not most or not all) problems wouldn't be going on or have happened.


I'm sorry you feel that way.

Religion is a reason people use for fighting, it is not the cause of fighting. Human nature is the cause of fighting, and across time, humans have used various reasons to fight, whether it be their neighbors dog crapping in their yard, some one sleeping with their significant other, or the skin color of someone is different than theirs.

Of course you can say that if there was no religion, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be killing each other, but if we use critical thinking, we would see that it's false to assume that they would not find another reason to fight.

Religion is just another way for certain people to differentiate themselves from others, and some take it so far as to killing. But the same has been done with race, sex, and so on. Just because religion is a large part of most, if not all, cultures of the world does not mean that if it went away, "many" problems would not have happened. It's a very narrow view to hold, because you can't go back in time, remove religion, and see the results. I can however, reference many wars, and clear cases where humans have fought and killed without religion being any factor.

That being said, you can think what you will about religion. Your views, or mine for that matter, have nothing to do with this conversation. I'm simply advocating that you think critically about it and not try to use this argument as it holds no water.

[93yotasr5]

Hahaahah glad we have our own opinions guy

[oly884]

Hahaahah glad we have our own opinions guy


I'm glad I'm not as close minded as you, but I guess to each their own...

[93yotasr5]

people have been fighting over religion for thousands of years! in every culture and every generation. im not closed minded at all just saying it how i see it.

[Small_words]

Perhaps you're just saying things in a simplistic way, but saying that religion is the cause of most of humanity's problems is extremely simplistic. To me, Troyboy was right when he said that the unfortunate thing about Islam is that it is being used to justify the viciousness of Al Qaeda.

If you actually believe that religion is the cause of all humanity's problems, you should put away your textbooks and pickup the Bible or Koran and read them. If you're looking for support of evil actions then you're reading them like the Imams who support murder and the Pope's that supported the genocide of South America.

[93yotasr5]

Perhaps you're just saying things in a simplistic way, but saying that religion is the cause of most of humanity's problems is extremely simplistic. To me, Troyboy was right when he said that the unfortunate thing about Islam is that it is being used to justify the viciousness of Al Qaeda.

If you actually believe that religion is the cause of all humanity's problems, you should put away your textbooks and pickup the Bible or Koran and read them. If you're looking for support of evil actions then you're reading them like the Imams who support murder and the Pope's that supported the genocide of South America.


Read my previous post where I said "many" not all or not most problems. I don't believe in organized religion

[Ric]

UNsubscribing.

[93yotasr5]

Me too ^