Alignment Questions

[4x4mike]

I took my '99 4Runner into today to get aligned. I have never had a good alignment experience and today was no different. I put my shocks on a couple of months ago and have about 1500 miles on them. When I put the Tokico trekmasters on I also put a 3/8" Toytec spacer to put the front at the stock height. Soon after the shock install I took a trip to Oregon and noticed a little pulling to the left. Since that trip I've put on more miles and had a weekend offroad trip.

Les Schwab held onto my junk for 11 hours today only to tell me that my 4Runner cannot be aligned, has components that "slip" and that they have never seen anything like this before. Sometime during the day they called their help line to get some over the phone help and it was no good. What made this alignment trip different from the rest is that they weren't trying to sell me a bunch of steering components saying they were the problem. They just said that they didn't want to tweek things too much because the numbers weren't right. Based on the numbers they say the truck should be pulling to the RIGHT when in fact it pulls to the LEFT. The truck had a pulling to the left problem before I took it in and it's still there but not as bad. What do you think of these numbers? They said I might have a bound up coil "or something."

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/1105001806.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/1105001814a.jpg

These were the only 2 print outs they had. I guess they put it up in the rack 3 times and test drove it 3 times and "things slipped back." When i asked them what slipped they didn't know. I told them that they were the ones moving things, taking measurements and putting it on the machine so they should be the ones that can tell me WHAT slipped but no. They said all the components look great and gave me kudos on their condition. I hate rust so everything is clean and painted and anything that has needed replacement has be replaced since I've owned this thing.

[4x4mike]

FWIW these are the shocks I put on. Original coils were reinstalled in their respective spots.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6hyBcEQWF14/TFuNo1N3oWI/AAAAAAAAXnY/u5uUYUgEuk0/s800/DSC08111.JPG

[CJM]

Have you always had them try to align your truck? A boss of mine always used firestone b/c they charged him half and every single time they gave whatever it was back and it would pull or wander or whatever.

I took it to a trusted STS I use and they got a ford, with twin I-beam suspension (very hard to align!) and it drove PERFECT.

I would try another shop

[4x4mike]

I'm going to try another shop. The shop I took it to said that if I bring it back Monday they'll bring someone in to look at it. The way I see it is that they'll have my vehicle for another whole day just to do an alignment. The Les Schwab I took it to said they had every guy that worked there take a look at it and it sounds like they all gave their $.02 on the matter.

[CJM]

Ya know I had an issue once where I couldnt align the truck, found out it had a bad idler and pitman arm. But you have a steering rack iirc not an idler arm.

Im stumped...

[corax]

damn . . . had a whole explanation typed out but it disappeared. Long story short, try swapping your tires side to side to see if it starts to drift the other way (tire induced pull) and make sure you don't have more drag on one side than the other (brakes, bearings, etc)

[Bob98SR5]

its just one of those things, mike. sometimes a shop and the people just cant get it right. i had the same experience with firestone. took it to another indep. shop and they got it right the first time.

[4x4mike]

Tomorrow is another shop. The first place did do a tire swap just to make sure. It didn't fix it so they put them back.

[YotaFun]

Curious, are you still sitting stock hieght or are you lifted?
If your still sitting stock, look at your esceentrics and see if there sitting straight up and down.
If they aren't, have the shop your talking it to put them back to stck, this way they have a better base to start off at then fixing someone elses screw ups.

Also try to find a shop with a newer Hunter WinAlign System.
I can't remember the last time I saw a dot matrix print out.

Also just do a once over on all your nuts and bolts to make sure everything is tight.

[4x4mike]

I'd say I'm just over the "tall" stock '99 height. I've got some air bags in the rear that put me a little higher than the front. The front has some 3/8" spacers but I think they put me back to new '99 stock height as I've beat on my junk some.

Junk beating:
Take off
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/Jump.jpg

Landing
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/Lowered.jpg


I have strong reason to think that I don't have any bent parts (even though the above picture might suggest otherwise). The truck has driven straight for many miles and even after beating on it it's been fine. The shocks and the spacer in the front did make instant changes and those are what I want fixed. The escentrics on the front are straight up and down. It looks like the first shop was spending their time on adjusting the TRE's. The shop today has an algnment thing that lifts the vehicle in the air, has lasers that shoot at targets on the wheels.

[YotaFun]

sounds like a start

[CJM]

Yea, that reminds me Avy, I havent seen a shop have the older print out likes that in years.

[paddlenbike]

I consistently experience the highest level of incompetence from tire alignment shops. It took three trips to Big O Tire before I gave up them. The first alignment was following my lift where they said "your lift is too big to compensate via alignment." After hearing from you all saying it certainly was possible to get it within spec, I took it back and they got it closer, but it still wasn't right. After the third trip I realized they were only adjusting half of the adjusters--they were using the ones on the front of the front A-arm mount and the ones on the rear of the back A-arm mount, leaving the ones inbetween at stock positions. Seriously, when all you do is tires, shocks and alignment, how stupid can you be? I had the same experience with my Supra, and that was at the precise shop that your 4Runner is currently sitting at.

The only advice I can give you Mike is to take it to a place that specializes in alignments. There's a shop in Davis that a co-worker tells me about where they do it the old school way and have been doing alignments since the advent of the automobile. That's where mine will go next time. I think the laser alignment computers have the techs so confused they forget common sense.

[4x4mike]

Those print outs do look old school. The shop is newer but I never saw their machine. Who knows.

I walked past where the 4Runner is today during lunch and it's out of the bay and looks done. I was hungry so I didn't stop but I'll give them a call. Hopefully it's done and good to go and not passed off as good. Worse case is they gave up on it.

[paddlenbike]

They do laser alignment...they were still running the lasers and lighting up the whole shop at midnight friday night.

[CJM]

If anything thats one of the VERY old hunter alignment machines they used b/c they make those cheap dot matrix printouts. The kind where they have a whole contraption that connects to each wheel on the bead and while its laser its quite old. Kinda reminds me of the laser levels you can get at the hardware store.

Newer style hunter machines use a laser grid, kinda looks like a honeycomb one ach wheel and a setup on the alignment rack itself iirc. Like this: http://www.hunter.com/alignment/winalign_premium/index.cfm

The printouts usually look like your plain jane inkjet printers to and some shops actually use colored ink to indicated if its in, out, before and after using red and green ink.

[YotaFun]

Ken, I think its the lack of trainning Techs in the shop have recieved on the new machines.

Two techs as well as I that have just graduated out of UTI were trainned on the machine that my shop is using now, and we have senior techs coming to us asking us what exactly to do....

I have been having troubles alighning my truck, but I think with the coilovers on mine not being adjusted right as well as one of the tabs that was suppose to keep an esscentic in place flattened out its been tough, I got it close as I could thanks to Troys pics of his esscentrics I got it pretty close to the green and toe enough that I could drive the truck while I look for a new DD

[4x4mike]

Got it back today. They didn't hint of any problem and said everything went fine. The machine there was a Hunter DSP 600 if that means anything.

Here is the print out they gave me.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e13/mezamichael82/1108001913a.jpg

There was a note on the paper work that said my rear tires were cupped. Those rears were on the front a couple hundred miles ago. They got a lot of wear from driving around unaligned. They said my front was good to go but at freeway speeds those rear cupped tires can make the front wander. I kind of believe them and can kind of feel a wander but I think it's more in my head. The wander is better than the pull I was having and I'll chalk it up to the rears having that wear and them pushing the fronts. I was glad this shop, like the last, wasn't trying to get me to replace bushings or steering components that didn't need replacement. In all I think they are fine but think they are all original with 121k miles. I've got a 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty on their work so after my next oil change I'll take it in and have them check it to make sure it hasn't moved and is still where it needs to be.

Thanks or the help and insight.

[CJM]

Looks like they didnt do much but set the toe, which is shocking the idiots at the other place couldnt do. it also looks like their machine was tons more accurate anyways. That printouts from a newer hunter machine print out for sure.

Looks like a good shop to deal with in your area.