should we modify the IFS bump stops?

[troyboy162]

take a look at this image...what if we chopped the bump stops down to allow the tire to come up further into the wheel well? this pic shows the bump stop just barly engaging the frame. im not sure but i would think our shocks could compress more and the A-arms, CV's could all handle more up travel. i know that means more wheel well mods but 3 more inches of usable up travel would be very helpful.

do the second gen guys do anything to theres?

http://www.ultimateyota.com/images/stories/featured_rig/0910_troyboy162/10sept-06.jpg

look at the guy in this picture. look how much further up the wheel can travel if it has enough weight to smoosh the huge bump stop
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/off-roading-home-monst4rs/44734-ifs-front-locker-article-informative-2.html#post690285

[Scuba]

http://www.ultimateyota.com/images/stories/featured_rig/0910_troyboy162/10sept-06.jpg

look at the guy in this picture. look how much further up the wheel can travel if it has enough weight to smoosh the huge bump stop
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album10/Rock_Humpers_040.sized.jpg


Thats just it. The weight is there and compressing that bump more than normally.
When I was tubbing my junk.. this was the CV angle it had when the bump was just barely compressed.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/Sycosurfer150/Truck/a1966bac.jpg

I do agree, there is plenty of angle left in the CV. The question is, is there enough angle left in the BJ's so they won't bind?
Of course, we do more damage to the BJ's by accidentally taking some whoops and drooping out the suspension way too fast.

I think there is room to improve with the up travel, and I should have trimmed those down some when I was doing my tubbing. :chair:
Before trimming those bump stops, I'd drill a few 1/4"+ holes in them (think, swiss cheese) so that they will compress more easily.

[Robinhood4x4]

do the second gen guys do anything to theres?


Yeah, there's aftermarket low profile bumpstops available.

[troyboy162]

thanks robinhood. do you guys run into any ball joint issues? i know your suspension is quite a bit differnt but your ball joint stock angles are probably similar

i just found the energy suspention ones. they are mentioned here. http://www.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/tech/poly-vs-rubber-18641.html

the artical also makes the good point that if you go to pismo...you need real bump stops lol

so with a little more up front and some more in the back like this guy acheived:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/73968-4runner-custom-lower-links.html

then we are getting a pretty respectable cross up flex.

[Robinhood4x4]

Honestly, I don't remember...it's been so long since I've had ifs now. I don't remember there being many discussions about ball joint failure, though.

Maybe SLO knows.

[slosurfer]

With 2nd gens ifs, it's the droop angles that you need to be careful of, but there's plenty of room to modify the uptravel bumpstops. By looking at the pics that Steve posted, I think you have plenty of angle left to shorten up those bumpstops.

I've got tiney itty bitty uptravel bumpstops on my 4runner and they are pretty hard ones. When I do hit them at Pismo, you do feel them. :) I don't hit them that often though. That being said, the added uptravel is nice and I am able to use it on the trails

[troyboy162]

ok Steve...hammer, plasma, or sawzall? :D

[Scuba]

Sawzall.

[Ric]

on my 99, I had some low profile bump stops, they helped with the up travel, got them at auto zone IIRC
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd139/Rix4rnr/2007%20Wheeling/John%20Park%20%20clean%20up%2010-25/meflexcopy.jpg
I was running 33s if it matters, lol

[Obi..]

*Keep in mind the angles you're going to start putting on your steering rack links also. Are you running a diff drop with a lift at all, there go your angles a bit more. As for your question about bumps for the 2nd gens, honestly I didn't use any and likely won't since I'm running balljoint spacers and a different set of torsion bars, even though SLO did IIRC. :angel: I'm not hardcore enough there I guess b/c usually the most I do is disconnect the sway arm links and have actually considered recently the use of limit straps front and rear after almost ejecting a coil in back. Just pick up some $20 poly's from AutoZone or Kragen and try them out.

Thought about chatting w/ Steve since he done a few of these? http://sonoransteel.com/

If you want to get really pimp, pick up a digital camera or go-pro and place it up front where you can monitor the suspension cycling. Go someplace local and play around a little. Bring tools and a spare shaft just in case. :D

Scuba, I wish I had your courage..35's and IFS.. :bowdown: :clap: You gotta goto a LT or SAS setup soon.

[Scuba]

Scuba, I wish I had your courage..35's and LOCKED IFS.. :bowdown: :clap: You gotta goto a LT or SAS setup soon.


^^ Fixed ^^

:D

Already collecting parts for a SAS swap with a yota axle and a passenger drop '85 transfer case.
Not having problems with the front end I just don't want to replace the crappy rack with another crappy rack.

[Crinale]

the guy u posted on the crack in moab sounds like he had a pretty sick front suspension setup (11 inches travel without going wider! thats only 2 inches less than my long travel). Doesnt sound like he has BJs (or at least not on the upper A-Arm). Oh, and i have stock bump stops on my 2nd gen.. but the rest of the suspension is slightly different :P

[Bighead]

Scuba...how many racks have you gone through so far?

[Scuba]

Scuba...how many racks have you gone through so far?


Still on the stock one at 150K, actually.
But, its leaking like a sieve at the moment and should be replaced soon.
But, screw that. I'm going to cut off the IFS and never worry about a rack again. Hydro Assist FTW. :stir:

[YotaFun]

Interesting idea.
Going to have to watch my suspension flex next weekend.
Honestly I never though I actually compressed the front enough to hit the bump stops, but now with the Adjustable coil-overs and All-Pro A-Arms I might just now.

I am on my second rack now and I think I am due for a 3rd....

I am with Scuba, after something else breaks on the front end (already lost both cvs and the front diff) I am getting the sawzall out and doing a swap.

[troyboy162]

it might give us some sweet performance or our t4r's might divide by zero lol. that guy in moab has his wheel center level with the bottom of his door. thats about 4 inches higher then my wheel in my picture. under normal conditions the best i can hope for is about the below pic. again its just on the bump and not able to compress it. but if i two wheel downhill i can get it to crush the bump stop. i think from steves pic the cv should be ok or at least not worse then when we droop.
so lets tally the issues here:
-ball joints being stressed in the oposite dirrection
-compressing shocks too far
-steering rack ball joints
-major fender/firewall mods for oversized tires
-no more bombing the fence line at pismo:)

heres about the limit during normal operations
http://www.ultimateyota.com/images/stories/featured_rig/0910_troyboy162/10sept-00.jpg

im teatering between three and two wheeling here and the lower control arm finaly shows sign of crushing the stop. still a long ways to go to match the runner at moab
http://www.ultimateyota.com/images/stories/featured_rig/0910_troyboy162/10sept-04.jpg

[Obi..]

Meh..just fork out the dough and get fenders to go with it and you'll be fine @ Pismo. :D

Ask Mr. Choat what his rig's travel #'s are? http://www.chaosfab.com/96000.php

[troyboy162]

haha yeah its always a trade off and when given the choice ill always lean towards rock performance for as little money as possible.

[troyboy162]

Ric,

what did you think about it? how different were your new bump stops. the picture dosnt show much extra uptravel but of course none of us except the moab picture have pic specific to stuffing the front tire under ideal conditions

[Crinale]

Troy, i think the lower ball joint isnt much of a problem, if you get upper a-arms with the Uniballs (like all-pro, TC, etc) you should be able to get the suspension to cycle more without worrying about binding the BJs.. as for steering, that can be a problem, but if it actually does become a problem just get a heimed steering made up ;) Steve at DIRT Designs (formerly Akros Motorsports) will do it for a good price. And heims will take a lot greater angles and more abuse than BJ's do/will (im gonna have an all-heim steering made for my 4runner). Troy, you should copy the suspension on that moab pic.. would really kick ass in the rocks.

[troyboy162]

kevin ill have to look more into that moab guy. from his post it sounded like the extra thing he did was fender mods. maybe thats all he did since he lived in moab and did lots of pure two wheeling like that picture. there is a video on youtube of me coming down cleghorn squeeze where most of the weight was on the front driver. ill have to dig that up and see if that squished mine up more. good info on the heims!

edit PM sent to the moab guy iquiring about his bump stops and showing him this post. ill update with any info he gives

[Flexus]

Hi all. The guy from Moab isn't from Moab. He's from Pasadena, CA. I know him pretty well. He's a nice guy. Oh, wait that's me LOL.

Well Troyboy nice shot coming down Odessa and I see a folks posting John Bull gatekeeper pics too. Troyboy will be surprised to find out that my old 4Runner is in Victorville! We're going to Calico the weekend of Feb 19 BTW. My current ride isn't ready for Doran or Odessa though.

Back to the 4Runner. The Golden Crack shot was taken when the truck was running '99 front springs, Camburg arms, 1" topout spacer and OME Long shocks, 1" diff drop. That was good for 10.5 to 11" of travel depending on spring position. Bump stops were stock or the struts would have bottomed out on compression being spaced down so much. For the 33s to fit in there the wells were heavily clearanced with a 5 lb tool, I think you can guess the type. The steering balljoints on the arms were at their max. The front end also runs an ARB locker. Original parts with no breakage. It was a very flexy setup. Naturally the sway bar was disconnected. I used to sell discos for 3rd Gens and Tacos.

http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album73/big_bear_013rr.jpeg
The back flexes pretty well but I think some of you have gone further with LC shocks and maybe aftermarket arms.

Today it is also running TRD Tundra springs so that's at least 3.5" lift matched to FJ80 front springs in the back. It is still flexy but not quite as much as with the '99 springs. It also has a TRD supercharger which adds some weight up front.

If you are interested in reading up on the mods for that truck go to http://www.larsdennert.com Also a few thousand wheeling pics in the gallery. I also have HD video from the golden crack trip here http://www.vimeo.com/album/30661

Of course I'm happy to answer questions. I never get tired about talking trucks!

[DHC6twinotter]

Welcome to the forum, Flexus!

[Scuba]

Well Troyboy nice shot coming down Odessa and I see a folks posting John Bull gatekeeper pics too. Troyboy will be surprised to find out that my old 4Runner is in Victorville! We're going to Calico the weekend of Feb 19 BTW. My current ride isn't ready for Doran or Odessa though.

Of course I'm happy to answer questions. I never get tired about talking trucks!


If I have some time off that weekend then I might be able to make it out that Sunday the 20th.

Are you the guy that just got a lift/ running board removal from Icon on that Lexus of yours?

[randver]

welcome to the forum Flexus.

i think are factory bump stops are fine and for what we do we have plenty of travel.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee94/docadw/offroad/super11/2495037350068032280S500x500Q85.jpg

i think my next mods will have to do with safety after superstitions this year.

[troyboy162]

flexus great to have you join up! thats wild you were on stock bump stops. do you have any normal terrain pics where the tire stuffed that far? idealy id like to get mine to travel that far up with 4 wheels still on the ground. i wonder if your softer springs made all the difference compaired to my 883's. id love to have some more front end flex for the trails we run.

i wish i was around to hit calico with you guys. that place is always fun to explore! steve knows a bunch of good mines too.

[Scuba]

flexus great to have you join up! thats wild you were on stock bump stops.

Steve knows a bunch of good mines too.

Like I said. If you want your bumps to compress easilier than drill some 1/4" holes in them.

And, no, I don't know where all the good mines are around there...

[troyboy162]

not all of them but ive taken you through the main tunnels of bismark and the oregon...

i think ill test with no bump stops around my apartment. just some slowspeed flexing and see what happens. i also think it might add another no-no rule though. im picturing turning hard driver and then stuffing that driver tire. thats got to be beyond the stock steering ball joints angles?..
man if i can add an inch of usable uptravel i will be thrilled.

[Scuba]

Ball joints don't really have much to do with steering. They mainly pertain to up and down travel of the spindle/ wheel.
What I think your thinking of is the tie rods coming off the rack and pinion. The inner tie rod is where most of the play comes from. However, it does keep the up and down movement of the outer tie rod in aligment while not allowing the toe to go too far in or out.

These are the upper BJ's.. Think of the thicker part of this BJ being connected to the rack as the inner BJ. Then the outer BJ connects to it.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/Sycosurfer150/Truck/IMG_1039.jpg


You get that much movement out of the inner tie rod.
I don't really think you'll be stressing the inner TR too much. But I could be wrong.

[troyboy162]

opps i was using the wrong terminology. yeah i was thinking the inner and outer tie rods. i hope they have plenty of room. steve you will have this mod all worked out by the time i get home right? haha

[Scuba]

No. I won't be going out until KOH 2011.

[troyboy162]

what stevo no wheelin?

[Crinale]

i think he wants his truck in working order to be able to wheel at the Hammers :P

[Scuba]

Nothin good happening until then. Not to mention I'm broke as a joke.

[troyboy162]

well spin off a bump stop and see what happens with some controled testing

[Scuba]

Maybe I might drill those 1/4 holes in mine.. see what happens..

[troyboy162]

spin em off first and see if its worth while before you mod them. im wondering if my 883 springs will compress enough. your 881 feel stiff in your light truck...

[Scuba]

Spin em off as in take them off? Dude, thats a recipe for major rubbage. Hell, my tires would probably rip off a fender. I might do it though. I think I'm going to take a lady friend to wildomar with me on saturday so... stay tuned. Oh and I'm running 882's ya tard.

[troyboy162]

what springs did you have at pismo? crap you cant be changing things without telling me hahah. yeah its gonna be huge rub...well if the results are as good as i hope. the other side of the coin is they might not go much further until you two wheel. i will try it out at my top secret flex location (desert/dump) by my apartment

[Scuba]

Still had the 881's at pismo. I might not have told you since you've been overseas, but I can't remember.
The 882's still do flex well though.
EDIT: oh and actually, now, front sits higher than the rear :confused:

[troyboy162]

nice! off topic but do you feel they are stiffer then 881? as always there is new disscussion on the net of the true spring rates of 881, 882, 883

[Scuba]

Spring rates of the 881's and 882's are the same. Its the length of the spring, and the position it places my suspension at that makes them feel stiffer.

[Flexus]

<I guess my last post didn't make it>
Here some pics from our last Calico trip with my old ride.
http://67.122.16.97/lars/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album25
My current truck is unarmored so no tough trails for it right now. My old one will be at the Feb even as well as some other built trucks.

Balljoints are in no danger of maxing out under compression. Only the struts could max if you mess with the stops. I went hunting for some more flex shots.
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album09/Moab_028.sized.jpg
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album10/IMG_2419.sized.jpg
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album10/IMG_2447.sized.jpg
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album10/Rock_Humpers_021.sized.jpg
Not a flex shot but fun because I was in Toyota Trails.
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album08/TheWedge.sized.jpg

[troyboy162]

looks great! i want that kind of up travel! i hope the bump stops will be the ticket. ive never had my 35" that far up in the wells. i dont know if its the change to 883 springs or i just havent done any two wheeling down hill since the switch

[troyboy162]

spun off the stops on the driver side this afternoon. i cant seem to force it into more uptravel at my little test spot. in any event it will take alot of force to compress the spring further aka two wheeling downhill. the ideal front flex will not be happening. ill have to take them to cougar buttes for a test run soon.

[Scuba]

spun off the stops on the driver side this afternoon. i cant seem to force it into more uptravel at my little test spot. in any event it will take alot of force to compress the spring further aka two wheeling downhill. the ideal front flex will not be happening. ill have to take them to cougar buttes for a test run soon.


I know I deff can compress my junk to max bump while rolling slow. Especially after our Hammerdown run the other weekend. I don't think I'll be modifying mine anytime soon. Got too much other shit to take care of :shake:

On another note, LMK when you want to do that Buttes run :thumbup:

[troyboy162]

whats next weekend look like? is corral canyon happening?

[Scuba]

I haven't checked?

Not thinking about wheelin right now really. Just trying to get the truck drivable again.

[NakSuKow]

Troy,

Your OME shocks are longer than stock, I don't think you can physically compress them to take advantage of low profile bump-stops.

[troyboy162]

flexus was using ome shocks and a top out plate so the shock should have more room to go. is possible that my upper control arm was out of travel, but im guessing its the 883 springs.

[Crinale]

ya, the stiff springs probably arent helping your case..

[NakSuKow]

Troy,

Want some 882s to play with?

[troyboy162]

steve has those mounted. maybe some day when we have time ill swap a side with him and go test

[NakSuKow]

Steve hasn't cut that stuff off yet?

[Scuba]

No. I should have after this past weekend. But I need lots of parts before I can take a sawzall to the crap.

[troyboy162]

is this going to be one of those things where you denouce your roots and forget where you came from?

[Scuba]

is this going to be one of those things where you denouce your roots and forget where you came from?


No. I will always retain my attitude of "IFS got me really far and I loved it but, I wanted stronger axles. And I wanted to be a cool kid."

[troyboy162]

Just revisiting this topic after I found both my crappy a-arms were cracked. I dont believe I have done anything that would make a stock arm crack but It had me thinking about how my bump stops may not even be touching in a bottom out situation. I have added about a 1/4" of washers under each bump stop and will monitor if and how much they come into play.