Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

[Tanto]

European cars offer a diesel engine with just about every one of their cars and it's high time we in the US do the same. Diesel technology in cars has improved by leaps and bounds and you can easily beat a Prius in a diesel car these days. The big federal tax on diesel is outrageous when you consider how much more per gallon it is for diesel vs 87 octane gas. If our government lowered the tax on diesel, I think a lot more people would no longer be scared when they see how much more a gallon of diesel goes for vs 87 octane.

I bought a 2010 Golf TDI a month ago and I have to say that I'm blown away by it. I've driven a Prius and there's no comparison to something like my Golf. I can drive it reasonably and get great (45+) mileage or choose to drive like my hair is on fire and get in the mid 30 mpg. I really don't think that all this hybrid/electric car stuff is the answer because when you look at the total amount of energy that goes into making a hybrid vs a diesel car, the hybrid does way more damage to the environment because of all the resources, energy, and difficulty of making those huge batteries.

Ultimately, hydrogren is the answer our country needs because you can fill it up in the same amount of time it takes to fill up your car and you can run your house easily on your car's fuel cell when you're at home (you could power your block too for that matter).

So for anyone that is considering buying a gas-saving DD, take a test drive in something like a VW Golf TDi or a Jetta TDI and if you enjoy driving, I think you'll find that a hybrid just doesn't provide anywhere near the same level of fun as a diesel.

I'm not here to grandstand for VW's TDI line, but the technology has caught up in the commercial vehicle market and more people need to give it a chance.

[DHC6twinotter]

I agree. I would much rather have a diesel car over a hybrid. I think hybrids are just a fad, but I think we may see more and more pure electric vehicles. I would love to see hydrogen cars catch on, but I just don't see that happening.

Also, we keep hearing politicians push for more alternative fuel sources. From what I understand, it is much easier to create an alternative fuel, such as algae based fuels, for a diesel than it is for a gas motor. So, I think if the government is really serious, they need to cut diesel taxes and try to get the price of diesel at least a dollar cheaper. Once people see that diesel is cheaper and get over the idea that diesel is so much more pollutant, we will see VW diesel sales go up (and to a smaller extent BMW and Mercedes). Next, Toyota, Honda, ect will want in the game. I think cutting diesel prices and pushing for diesel automobiles is the most logical next step in creating alternative fuels.

And as a side note, almost every part of our economy is effected by diesel prices in some form. Whether it be hauling freight by truck or train, building infrastructure, farming, whatever, we rely heavily on diesel fuels. IMHO, cutting the price of diesel would be a fantastic way to help our economy.

I don't understand why diesel is so much more expensive than regular gas. Isn't diesel less refined? Is it just because diesel is taxed more?

I love the BMW 335d. And in Europe, BMW makes a 320 diesel that gets over 50mpg.

Anyways, just my 0.02.

[Tanto]

Diesel is really taxed by the government because the prime users are the truckers and so they justify the tax by the amount of wear the big rigs do to the interstate system roads. Unfortunately, there are people who DON'T drive big rigs that also buy diesel.

Non-highway uses of diesel (i.e. farms, marine) get tax-free diesel which is dyed pink, but only available at marinas and by special order for farms. Whenever the diesel prices spike, the truckers like to steal diesel from farm equipment but the workers at the truck stops inspect their tanks to see if there is any pinkish color that would indicate that they're using illegal diesel fuel.

Diesel is much less refined than gasoline, which is why gasoline is so hard to find in 3rd world countries and remote areas.

In Mexico, you can buy the VW Polo/Lupo brand new, which will get around 75 MPG!! I've seen a few on the road around SD.

Speaking of BMW, they have a diesel powered version of their 5 series that is very nearly as fast as the gas powered V10 5-series.

[corax]

Diesel is much less refined than gasoline, which is why gasoline is so hard to find in 3rd world countries and remote areas.



In the past this was true, but not anymore.


Because it is a heavier hydrocarbon, diesel oil takes less refining; in the past this made it less expensive than gasoline. But as air pollution controls have become more stringent, diesel oil must be refined to have a lower percentage of sulfur, making its refinement process more expensive. Although diesel has a higher energy output per gallon than gasoline, it takes approximately 25 percent more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel oil than it does to make a gallon of gasoline.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7265461_difference-refining-gasoline-diesel-fuel.html

[DHC6twinotter]

huh...I forgot about the pink diesel. I guess cheaper diesel prices will still help truckers and help keep the price of goods from going up.



In Mexico, you can buy the VW Polo/Lupo brand new, which will get around 75 MPG!! I've seen a few on the road around SD.

Speaking of BMW, they have a diesel powered version of their 5 series that is very nearly as fast as the gas powered V10 5-series.


I remember seeing some of those Polos in Mexico. Wish we could get them here.

I hear the diesel 3 series is really quick too, and it looks like BMW now offers a diesel X5. :drool:

[Robinhood4x4]

I'll argue on the other side for this one because of a rather unique insight I have into the world of electric cars. A friend at work is very much into electric cars, hybrids, and cars in general. He's had electric cars in the past including back when their range was only 40-50 miles and he's had hybrids too.

While I don't think hybrids are a fad, I do think they are a stepping stone to pure electric. In fact, once the plug in hybrids start to show up in greater numbers on the lots, we'll probably replace the wife's corolla with one.

My friend at work just got a Nissan Leaf...the 2nd one in AZ...and I've ridden in it quite a bit. It's a fascinating car. The weirdest thing about it is the lack of noise when it moves. For the first time rider, your first reaction when the car takes off is to warn the driver that the car is rolling because it feels like it shouldn't be. There's no engine reving up to subconsciously tell you the car is about to move.

If the battery lives up to the hype and expectations, it is a great leap in battery technology. It should be relatively immune to temperature, very little age effects and great energy density. With a charger running off of 220V at home, it'll take 7 hours to charge up to 80%, while a fast charger at public stations running off of 480V will charge the car up to 80% in 30 minutes. So basically, use the car to commute to work, run errands, then charge it up overnight.

For now, a pure electric car will not be a replacement if you only have 1 car. It'll be for commute and errands. Electric will only take off once the technology and infrastructure gets good enough so that one can drive across country as easily as a gas car. One way they could speed things up is to have battery swap out stations where you would just pull up and they take out your dead battery and replace it with a charged one. Li Ion batteries are in their infancy right now and hopefully they will get better and better over the years. Or some other electric energy storage technology will be developed.

The big problem with any other energy is the lack of infrastructure to deliver the energy to a car. Electricity is available everywhere, just like gasoline is. Where can I get hydrogen? From water? It takes a lot of electricity to turn water into hydrogen.

This is the reason why I think electricity will come into favor before hydrogen does. It'll take the government to create the infrastructure to get hydrogen to us and given the current economic atmosphere with the republicans and democrats arguing about the budget, such a budget will never pass.

Also, based on admittedly old data (10 years now), my friend who was working on his PhD in fuel cell work, said it would take more platinum known to exist on earth to provide enough fuel cells for every car in america. Maybe technology has changed since then, I don't know.

[Obi..]

I agree. I would much rather have a diesel car over a hybrid. I think hybrids are just a fad, but I think we may see more and more pure electric vehicles. I would love to see hydrogen cars catch on, but I just don't see that happening.

Also, we keep hearing politicians push for more alternative fuel sources. From what I understand, it is much easier to create an alternative fuel, such as algae based fuels, for a diesel than it is for a gas motor. So, I think if the government is really serious, they need to cut diesel taxes and try to get the price of diesel at least a dollar cheaper. Once people see that diesel is cheaper and get over the idea that diesel is so much more pollutant...


Not to mention technically IIRC from my chem class diesel is a byproduct of the cracking process. It requires less work to manufacture yet for some stupid reason has skyrocketed more in price inflation than gasoline has. Someone's making $, yet it would be so simple to spec the D4-D stateside, or allow installs of imported's easier. If I had to come to decide to do a diesel swap over a new purchase versus a 3.4, honestly I would be hard pressed to do a 3.4 looking at things in a long term perspective. *[EDIT]Yep, my memory's correct, except it happens in distillation, not cracking: http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/oil-refining2.htm

Companies like TESLA are pushing the boundaries, but not at the rate they can simply because of draconian regulations and laws.

@Robinhood, wait for it, I'm sure the day will come when they actually start laying inductives and pickup paddles down interstates. There's a test line in California as we speak.

[Crinale]

my biggest issue with electric cars is that people dont think about where that energy is coming from. They say, "Buy electric because they have no emissions". Well, last time i checked, most of this country is still powered by coal plants, which produce WAY more emissions than any vehicle ever. And also, if everyone started driving electric cars, just imagine the strain on the power grids. As it is right now out here in California our power grid is at (exceeding) capacity during the summer months.

I too would love to see Hydrogen cars come to fruition, but i know that they lack practicality. They have the fuel cell technology, in working production cars, but its still just a novelty until they have more than the 3 or 4 metropolitan areas set up with a infrastructure for it.

With that in mind, until they figure something else viable out, i believe diesel would be our best bet. Modern diesels are NOTHING like the old smoke blowing nasty engines of the 80s and 90s, and many actually run cleaner than their gas counterparts. I believe the pro's of diesel far outweigh its con's.. It is cheaper and easier to refine than gasoline, it has more energy output at the molecular level such that it takes less quantity to make the same energy (hence better gas mileage) and your not killing the planet with all the pollutants from the processes necessary to create the battery cells. (The pollution caused by the plants making the batteries for a Prius would take the P-ZEV vehicle like 12 years to make up for, the catch is that you are supposed to replace the batteries every 10 years) >.< so much for a green vehicle.

The only other viable option (right now) is Natural Gas, but it is also a limited resource that is stretched near its limits at certain times of the year.

Honestly diesel is the only option i see for now, unfortunately i doubt our government (and all the big oil lobbies) will let that happen completely.

I vote we bring the Stanley Steamer back! with todays technology we could boil the water way faster and be moving down the street fairly quickly, and fuel is just a garden hose away. Steamers back 100 years ago could already travel fairly long distances at speeds up to around 45-50 mph, now combine that with 100 years of innovation, i bet they could make a very nice steam powered vehicle.

[oly884]

Reason for high(er) costs of diesel: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/why_does_diesel_fuel_cost_more_than.html

The HUGE downside to electric vehicles is the range and recharge time. I'll never own one unless the cost is so low I can afford it as a second vehicle, or the charging time becomes similar to what it takes to refuel a vehicle with gas/diesel. Until then, electric cars/trucks/etc have no practicality for me. I go on long trips and having to stop every few hundred miles to let it charge for 30 mins to 7 hours would be difficult to say the least.

Of course this is not to say that there are not places where electric cars will work right now. Many people around Seattle don't travel more than 30 miles, to and from their homes, great choice for them.

Hybrids are a fad, as they are currently being built. Hybrids are just a way to make our existing fuel source (gas/diesel) more efficient which is a great stepping stone.

I've never liked how hybrids are being built right now when far more efficient vehicles can be built.

Take a small, very efficient turbo or NA diesel engine, and hook it up to a battery bank and 4 electric motors (one for each wheel). The vehicle will be an electric vehicle that is powered off of diesel, you can also incorporate regenerative braking and also allow it to be plugged into the wall.

[Tanto]

Oly, your comment about the recharge time on electric cars reminded me of an episode of Top Gear where James May came to america to test Honda's hydrogen powered car and he commented on how we base our lives on the concept of the car as we know it. He went on to describe how we plan on being able to drive our cars as far as we want and then fill up with more fuel (power) in just a couple minutes and how an electric car that needs hours to recharge will mean that we will have gone backwards because it doesn't fit our driving habits.

Back to discussing Europeans, I think that the other thing they have over us is that they aren't afraid of small cars to just get you to work and especially in the cities as a runabout. If we as Americans could get away from our love of big SUV's and trucks for our personal vehicles in areas that clearly don't need it we would be much better off. Not to say that SUVs and trucks don't have their purpose in remote areas, farms, etc. but a large percentage of people just don't need them to do what they want.

As far as platinum resources go, researchers have already identified processes that require significantly less platinum required in the catalyst and in at least one case, a platinum-free catalyst developed in Japan.

With the energy required to separate pure Hydrogen, the cleanest and most efficient way of making power for the consumer grid is still Nuclear energy. Sure it creates highly radioactive waste, but if disposed properly, it's hard to ignore the incredible efficiency of the process. There have been ideas put out that involve drilling miles below the crust and dropping the radioactive waste down there where it makes its way down and eventually dissipates into the mantle.

[Crinale]

Oly - i like your idea for a diesel hybrid.. a small diesel motor normally gets 40-60 mpg depending on the engine and driving habits.. a hybrid gas engine gets 40-60 depending on the same factors.. combine the two, and i could forsee over 100mpg being easily achievable, with a very drivable car. I would love to have a 500 mile range with a 5 gallon diesel tank.. your lookin at less than $20 to fill up!

Tanto - Europeans have other stuff over us as well, like good reliable public transportation systems, that normal everyday people use for their commutes rather than their Escalades (:asshat: mobile)

as for radioactive waste, yes its a problem, but the amount created is so small.. For the same amount of energy, a nuclear plant creates a basketball size waste, a coal-fire plant could fill a large football stadium with the coal byproduct. And placing the waste below the crust sounds like a viable option to me if they can figure it out..

[oly884]

Oly, your comment about the recharge time on electric cars reminded me of an episode of Top Gear where James May came to america to test Honda's hydrogen powered car and he commented on how we base our lives on the concept of the car as we know it. He went on to describe how we plan on being able to drive our cars as far as we want and then fill up with more fuel (power) in just a couple minutes and how an electric car that needs hours to recharge will mean that we will have gone backwards because it doesn't fit our driving habits.

Back to discussing Europeans, I think that the other thing they have over us is that they aren't afraid of small cars to just get you to work and especially in the cities as a runabout. If we as Americans could get away from our love of big SUV's and trucks for our personal vehicles in areas that clearly don't need it we would be much better off. Not to say that SUVs and trucks don't have their purpose in remote areas, farms, etc. but a large percentage of people just don't need them to do what they want.

It would definitely be a step backwards. The US is set up VERY spread out compared to a lot of countries, and we travel in our vehicles a lot. Hell, it's that dang old idea of freedom that we (and myself) hold so dear that we can hop in our vehicles and drive 1000+ miles for a vacation. I wouldn't want to trade it because it's something I truly enjoy doing. I love driving hours and hours out into the middle of nowhere, set up camp, and just soak in the solitude!

That being said, there's nothing wrong with changing the source of energy we use, it just has to allow for people to still enjoy those activities.

I'm actually in the market for a cheap little subaru AWD to get around town and to commute with. It saves wear and tear on the truck, better mileage on the truck, and allows for me to actually work on the truck and not have to limit myself to short/easy projects so I can get it back on the road.

I do agree that trucks and SUVs have become status symbols in our society, and as time goes on affording food, housing, cloths will become more important to those people...... Never mind. Most of those idiots will pay their car payments before they pay their rent or buy food (don't ask how I know).

It'll take a lot to wake people up, but with the economy in the shitter, the future being not so easy to predict, and the ever rising costs of gas and diesel, more and more will gravitate towards more efficient vehicles for day-to-day transportation.

[oly884]

Oly - i like your idea for a diesel hybrid.. a small diesel motor normally gets 40-60 mpg depending on the engine and driving habits.. a hybrid gas engine gets 40-60 depending on the same factors.. combine the two, and i could forsee over 100mpg being easily achievable, with a very drivable car. I would love to have a 500 mile range with a 5 gallon diesel tank.. your lookin at less than $20 to fill up!


And, as it stands now, it's a good solution if bio diesel takes off, if not, a good stepping stone.

We're pouring money into R&D for alternative fuels, and it's great, but we also need to find ways to take what we already have infrastructure for (gas/diesel) and use it as efficiently as possible.

We are already doing it with lighting (CFL's and LED's vs incandescent). Simply taking an energy source and using it more efficiently.

I've yet to know/hear exactly why a vehicle like this hasn't been implemented (on anything but Top Gear, thank you James May). It seems like a good idea, but who knows, perhaps there's issues that are cost prohibitive? But I don't buy that.

[Crinale]

ya i dont see anything that would be cost prohibitive for it.. honestly, even if you just plugged a diesel engine into the already existing hybrid systems you would see 100mpg. and a diesel engine is no more difficult to make than a gas engine..

[Tanto]

Crinale - Europeans designed their cities for public transportation (think of the small, awkwardly placed streets) whereas here in America, the rail system wasn't established long enough before the car came along and changed the way our public transport system was designed. Then you have our national highway system which was designed to facilitate our nuclear strike capability by being able to move the mobile ICBM launchers quickly and easily so we can thank the Cold War for our highway system.

Oly - I've read a couple magazine articles where they asked some people to think of what the future of energy would be and it all looked promising with the way I described of disposing of the nuclear waste. What I thought was interesting was that everyone they asked used Nuclear Power as a basis for our society's growing energy needs, which was also supplemented by green energy in the more remote areas to reduce the amount of power from the grid and reduce the footprint of transporting energy from main energy plants to these remote areas.

As far as hybrids go, I am very surprised that they don't use diesel as the on-board motor for all the reasons everyone has described. And since the electric drive system of hybrids require virtually no maintenance, it would seem to make sense to put a diesel powerplant under the hood for it's reliability factor as well as the fact that there is a whole industry separate from the car companies that has been focusing on creating just this type of powerplant (think generators).

[Tanto]

Just as a sidenote, I wish that the military installations would offer diesel at the pumps instead of just gas. With a current 18 cent tax on diesel, that would make me want to fill up on base. My only concern with that would be the cetane of the fuel they offered there, since it can vary greatly from gas station to gas station.

If anyone was interested in the cetane rating of each fuel company's pumps, you can check out this link http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=200694

[DHC6twinotter]

I say if Top Gear can build a diesel hybrid, the major automakers should be able to as well.

I do think electric cars are the future, and I'm all for building nuclear reactors and driving around in electric cars. As technology progresses, electric cars will become more and more popular. Many people have at least 2 cars anyways, so having an electric car as a DD and a gas/diesel car for travel makes sense IMO. If I could afford a new DD, I'd check out a Nissan Leaf, or whatever Toyota has to offer in the next few years. I like the idea and have thrown around the idea of building my own electric car.

[Bob98SR5]

Ryan,

I hear ya on the diesel/hybrid. It kills me how our own auto mfg industry and the Federal govt seem almost in cahoots and then in contradiction to whats best for our national interests (less dependence on foreign oil) and whats good for our private industry and our environment. As you've stated and I'm sure youve seen on your many travels, the technology is clearly out there and we are a few years behind. Like I've read an article about a Ford Fusion or Focus in the UK that has a great diesel engine that gets killer mpg, but Ford says that by bringing it over, it would be cost prohibitive. What a bunch of monkey pellet sh#t. These US auto mfgs charge a premium for the hybrid or diesel option---and people are buying them.

Dan,

I've been researching the build of an electric car too. There's tons of websites out there. The cost of those motors are coming down too as I've heard as that is the main cost next to the donor vehicle. Oh if only I had a big garage! Some websites say you can do it for around $2200, but that's a pipe dream IMHO unless someone drops a pristine donor vehicle. There are some companies who have drop in kits, the most popular it seems is a Chebby S10---but who the F'k wants to drive an S10?!? :P

[Bob98SR5]

If the battery lives up to the hype and expectations, it is a great leap in battery technology. It should be relatively immune to temperature, very little age effects and great energy density. With a charger running off of 220V at home, it'll take 7 hours to charge up to 80%, while a fast charger at public stations running off of 480V will charge the car up to 80% in 30 minutes. So basically, use the car to commute to work, run errands, then charge it up overnight.


Not only infrastructure but also pricing. Most if not all utilities charge a premium for usage during peak hours. Some utilities like So Cal Edison charge at a tiered rate. So your cumulative usage, even if charging your plug in at the lowest kwh time range, will eventually put you up in the highest tiered pricing band and possibly negate your cost savings. That's an issue many utilities are trying to address as we speak

[Robinhood4x4]

Not only infrastructure but also pricing. Most if not all utilities charge a premium for usage during peak hours. Some utilities like So Cal Edison charge at a tiered rate. So your cumulative usage, even if charging your plug in at the lowest kwh time range, will eventually put you up in the highest tiered pricing band and possibly negate your cost savings. That's an issue many utilities are trying to address as we speak


My friend did say it doesn't make as much financial sense to own an electric car in CA as it does in AZ, ironically. Az is giving a price break to those who get a Leaf (or maybe that's any electric car?) where if you charge during off peak hours it comes out to about $0.02 per mile. Compare that to $0.09 per mile for our corolla (~31 mpg) and $0.15 per mile for my 07 4runner (~20 mpg). This is the reason he gets to drive when we go out to lunch.

My friend's dad had the S10 back in the day. I don't know what the range is now, but the one he had only got something like 40-50 miles. Not enough to make it practical, in my opinion. The key to an electric car is the batteries and if those budget builds use lead acid, the range will suck. Li ions are the way to go but then you have to deal with special chargers, exploding batteries, and most importantly, cost.

[corax]

I've been researching the build of an electric car too. There's tons of websites out there. The cost of those motors are coming down too as I've heard as that is the main cost next to the donor vehicle. Oh if only I had a big garage! Some websites say you can do it for around $2200, but that's a pipe dream IMHO unless someone drops a pristine donor vehicle. There are some companies who have drop in kits, the most popular it seems is a Chebby S10---but who the F'k wants to drive an S10?!? :P


a bit of history to show how long conversions have been around
http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/pinto%201.jpg

[fenrisx]

Chevy is going to be releasing the Cruze in diesel. Only expected to get about 35mpg though.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/21/report-diesel-chevrolet-cruze-confirmed-for-u-s/

[paddlenbike]

Ryan, haven't seen you online for ages, welcome back.

As far as the difference in driving experience between a Prius and your TDI, I agree completely. I don't think hybrid technology is a fad, however. Since most of us drive less than 20-25 miles each way to work the concept of charging your car overnight and driving to work each day with zero emissions certainly has some strong advantages. Beyond reducing air quality impacts, reducing our dependence on oil and low-cost charging compared to buying fuel, the night-time charging helps reduce on-peak power demand and increase off-peak demand from the grid, which has all sorts of advantages you may not be interested in. If you have solar panels on your home you can reduce the cost of that drive to work even more.

While diesel engines are getting much cleaner, they still pollute more than a gasser. Even the brand new Renault Megane and Fiat Puntos I drove in Europe belch out some black smoke on a hard shift or fast acceleration. That said, I am impressed with how far diesel technology has come. Because diesels are super efficient at a constant RPM, I would like to see a car like the Volt but with a constant-duty diesel running the generator rather than a gas engine. Now you are only running the dirtier diesel engine when your drive exceeds the 40-50 mile range of your battery.

[MTL_4runner]

I guess I've already embraced diesel.....

After buying a Duramax diesel pickup, I can tell you diesel power is highly addictive. :D Can't say I get great MPG, but ironically I get about the same as I do in the 4runner (but with a 7,000 lb truck!) Just shows you how much more efficient the diesel is over gas motors and we're really just scratching the surface on the power available in the fuel so there's quite a bit of room for improvement as well.

[Crinale]

Since most of us drive less than 20-25 miles each way to work the concept of charging your car overnight and driving to work each day with zero emissions certainly has some strong advantages


I have a big issue with this statement: where do you think that electricity comes from? most of this country is still powered by coal-fire power plants, which are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution that exist. Just because the pollution isnt coming directly from your vehicle, doesnt mean that you arent contributing to pollution.

In areas like mine where the grid is entirely Nuclear and Natural Gas, i could see calling it "nearly" no emissions, but in most of the country, the amount of emissions probably isnt any better with an electric car.

also the amount of emissions created in the plants that manufacture just the Li-Ion batteries (not even the entire car) pump more pollutants into the air than a normal gas-powered vehicle does in several years.

[Erich_870]

I have a big issue with this statement: where do you think that electricity comes from? most of this country is still powered by coal-fire power plants, which are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution that exist. Just because the pollution isnt coming directly from your vehicle, doesnt mean that you arent contributing to pollution.

In areas like mine where the grid is entirely Nuclear and Natural Gas, i could see calling it "nearly" no emissions, but in most of the country, the amount of emissions probably isnt any better with an electric car.

also the amount of emissions created in the plants that manufacture just the Li-Ion batteries (not even the entire car) pump more pollutants into the air than a normal gas-powered vehicle does in several years.


I don't have any statistics in front of me, but a counter point to your position that electricity produced from burning coal is worse than displacing gas cars with electric vehicles could be made that one highly regulated, professional managed, power plant will be more efficient and produce less pollution than a bunch of poorly maintained cars. Why do you think large cites ban small engines on lawn mowers, leaf blowers, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is by economy of scale, it is more efficient to have a multimillion dollar coal fired power generation system that powers a bunch of electric cars than to have the same number of gas burning cars on the road. Granted there are parasitic losses for power transmission, but I think it still comes out ahead.

Erich

[Erich_870]

Another thing I'd like to mention is how different the landscape is for huge infrastructure projects like we're talking about here. If you look at the great leaps we've made with transportation in history we've never had to deal with a certain leviathan we have today. The Environmental Analysis requirement...

When Eisenhower started the engineers on the interstate system they never needed to do anything but pick the most cost effective route.

Today, you spend 25% or more of your budget just on permitting. Sometimes much more. There is a whole industry that I believe is filled with parasites who really don't want to see development and they bleed projects dry, and then come back with outlandish requirements to protect an unheard of critter that may or may not be impacted.

A good example is a wind turbine project that was set to be built in the Oregon/Washington Gorge. There was a ground squirrel that lived on both sided of the Columbia River. On the Oregon side it was considered threatened, but not on the Washington side. Guess where they didn't build any wind turbines...

If you have a process that is control by a demographic who typically doesn't support developmental, then it gets mighty expensive and they keep themselves in work.

Erich

[Robinhood4x4]

I asked my friend at work about why they don't make a diesel hybrid and he says it's because of all the regulations here in america. That's what makes it cost prohibitive. Not very many companies make a small car diesel engine that has been approved by the government and those that do, don't make mass produced hybrids (yet).

The auto industry is so regulated that it takes an act of god to get anything innovative approved. That's why the industry is so slow to change.

Crinale, I've asked that same question to my professors back in college and they said it's much easier to centralize the pollutants to a few locations rather than spread it out to the millions of cars out on the road. This allows easier cleaning and better regulation of what is let out into the air. I'd like to read more about the Li-ion air pollution. Do you have a link?

[Seanz0rz]

my senior project here at cal poly has a 50/50 chance of being a full scale, electric car. goal is 100 mile range at 55mph.

if that ends up being my project, it will be detailed on a blog as im working on it, as part of my project)

[Crinale]

I'd like to read more about the Li-ion air pollution. Do you have a link?


i read that a couple years ago about the 3rd gen prius.. ill see if i can find it again..

[paddlenbike]

I have a big issue with this statement: where do you think that electricity comes from? most of this country is still powered by coal-fire power plants, which are some of the biggest contributors to air pollution that exist. Just because the pollution isnt coming directly from your vehicle, doesnt mean that you arent contributing to pollution.


Coal-fired power plants are on their way out, but even with them a regulated power plant still produces less emissions than a bunch of individual cars. Particularly autos that are only being driven a few miles on each trip---my 4Runner barely gets warmed up before I shut it down--the pollution levels are so much higher on these short drives before the engine is warm and the ECU is in open-loop mode with no input from the O2 sensor.

[paddlenbike]

BTW, here's a shot of my parking garage at work today. An electric Mini Cooper, a Volt, a Nissan Leaf, a plug-in Prius and either an electric GEM or the Mercedes equivalent, not sure which. I wish I had a 1973 Ford LTD with a fake powerplug to park between them.

[Tanto]

China is the main source of problem on a couple fronts and it comes down to their coal-burning electric plants that at one point were coming online at an astronomical rate of one per week. China has been focused so much on getting results that they haven't been concerned at all about the environmental impact. So when we talk about regulated, more environmentally friendly coal plants we're really only talking about the US which pales in the number of coal plants to China.

As far as the black smoke from getting aggressive on the throttle of a diesel, the new diesel emission standards that came out in 2008 (i think) are very strict (VW had to cancel an entire model year of diesel engines just to come up with a new engine that adhered to these regulations). The black smoke is just carbon and a very small bit of fuel which doesn't build up in the atmosphere and doesn't really affect anything around it since you can only stomp on the throttle like that only so often unless you are going out of your way to get your car to belch black smoke, so I think it's a moot point to bring up black exhaust unless the engine is running on a grossly rich fuel map.

[Crinale]

I'd like to read more about the Li-ion air pollution. Do you have a link?


i read that a couple years ago about the 3rd gen prius.. ill see if i can find it again..


as of yet, i cant find it again, sorry.