violent front end shake

[hillbillyz]

Hello all,greetings from the pacific northwest. My daughter saved for years and finally bought her first truck for her 16th birthday,A 1990 ex cab and its got alot of heavy duty and aftermarket parts for crawling and 4x4 fun.you can check more about her ride at the intro forum. the truck had some little problems to attend to, but was at first,and suppost to be very driveable engine and drivetrain wise. well first a motor rebuild had to be done after the 5th day she owned it. But heres my real problem, when your driving it feels like a hop in front around 35, then go away at 40ish.but after driving behind it to inspect, i realized it was accually really bad side to side tie rod slop, no visible up and down like youd see with a bulged tire. So we got all 4 brand new heavy duty tie rod ends and it made it feel better but not fixed. so next was a rag joint, but this time it feels even worse.it seems everytime we fix a loose part that was giving alittle, you feel a more violent shaking. im guessing the slop i fixed is no longer able to absorb the movment and im getting closer to the real problem so its a violent side to side thrash rather than wheel wobble when it was all sloopy. now I have no problem searching post and finding answers but I have 2 asap situations, 1 im at a loss what to replace next,or maybe adjust? 2, my daughters home from vacation saturday and i want it fixed. after owning it 2 months shes only drove it 7days.If noone minds,,Id rather spend time wrenching than searching if somone had some quik ideas.heres her set up,

1990 toy ex cab truck 22re(original v6)
1985 boxed "trail gear" sas front
3 point link bars and jeep coils front
chevy 1500 rear leaf springs.
40" swampers

problem:at first it felt like a small wiggle at 35 to 40 mph then plain out and stop wiggling.inspected and replaced tie rods
after replacing tie rod ends it became a side to side wiggle that wont stop til the truck stops.inspected replaced rag joint
after replacing rag joint it feels very violent, thrashing side to side,wont stop til truck stops even with clutch in its harsh.
I just measured top and bottom of rim cause it looked like my front drive side tire was like a vw rear camber.its about 3/4"
smaller on top,is that normal?

after driving it today I noticed when it slams to one side,my sterring wheel goes the oppisite way.the trucks controling me not me controling it.ive never opened a steer box,is it gears,worm drive? the way the wheel respondes opposite to the tires i see gears in my head inside that box.i thought about gears be stripped,but the steering wheel moves uncontrolable, more force than i can hold? i build and design high dollar 1:10 scale crawlers and scale 4x4z.even though its smaller,i have the concept of 3 and 4 link systems,how to adjust for less binding..ect.Again its not full scale,but im not totally in the dark on full scale either.my jeeps set up with pretty much the same system and not a problem.if my lower links are like even an 1" different could that cause problems like shaking out of control. i havent measured that stuff yet,installed from previous owner(ive been working on steering parts)but wouldnt it just dog leg like an old chevy truck rear axle?tomorrow is a full adjustment of all links from factory measuring point for the most accuracy rather than the links them selfs.I know im new,but i'll pay my searching due's on the next one.can anyone help,ideas?drivelines are new,but could an unbalanced line cause the shaking im explaining,im just throwing out anything i can think of. chambered front tire..brokin axle maybe??it just wants to slam one side then the other,absalutly no holding it straight at all,fight it everytime and it allways wins no matter how hard you try to hold it straight or just hold it in place???(its seems worse if you do try to hold it??)thanks guyz.

[Obi..]

*Quick questions..

~You have a SAS, correct?
~Who did the work? Local shop, experienced builder, etc-etc??
~Checked your angles, etc? Because a 3-link's a lot easier to screw up than leafs.
~How soft are the coils and are you running locator plates and bolts to keep them from walking?

Put a go-pro under there and repeat the test drive. Video's money these days for nailing stuff like this.

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12 do a search in there, there's ton's of times I've seen this exact bit posted up.

[Obi..]

*FYI..You posted this in there already apparently: http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=991787, correct? You said above the rest of the info's in your intro, but all you did was completely copy/paste the same post over here. Make's it a bit hard(er) for anyone to really understand all that info without any backstory actually present IMHO and makes you look like a forum spammer, even if legitimately looking for help.

Give us some better info and answer the questions I posted above. :D

[DHC6twinotter]

Is this what it does?
Death Wobble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv23dLhMY#)

I don't know much about SASed trucks, but it almost sounds like death wobble. Whoever did the SAS may not have set the caster angle right.

You could also try rotating your tires and see what happens after that.

[CJM]

Its one of the links either loose or set up wrong, perhaps the track bar is bad. Or a bad alignment.

[hillbillyz]

i had no idea

*FYI..You posted this in there already apparently: http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=991787, correct? You said above the rest of the info's in your intro, but all you did was completely copy/paste the same post over here. Make's it a bit hard(er) for anyone to really understand all that info without any backstory actually present IMHO and makes you look like a forum spammer, even if legitimately looking for help.

Give us some better info and answer the questions I posted above. :D
the sites were the same ones.i simply searched google and found a few sites to write to. and yes its copy paste cause i was asking the same question at both places.yeah if i knew ultimateyoda and pirate 4x4 was the same i would have only posted in one.again was simply hitting as many forums as possible cause every one has its experts or old schoolers. and i was triing to get it done for my daughter returning from vacation. shes had it a few months and like 7 of those driving.i dont know what to add to what i wrote to start the thread, i gave my set up, and it explains my problem.so sorry for the double post, do you have any thoughts rather than conflict.i just want to fix my truck...not argue cause i posted 2 completely different sites and was un aware they were affiliated

[DHC6twinotter]

Ultimateyota and Pirate 4x4 are not affiliated and are two completely different sites.

If I ever have a daughter and she decides to buy a SASed Toyota truck on 40s for her fist car, I'd be one proud dad. :thumbup:

[Obi..]

...not argue cause i posted 2 completely different sites and was un aware they were affiliated


NP. We've given you the info you need to address to start fixing the problem above, including the third and fourth points in my original reply.

[hillbillyz]

wow, why are you so bitter?you come off like I personally attack you or somthing.I apoligized for the double post,I nicely ask if you had some advice?? admited I didnt do any in depth searching, but I explained why and ive been searching now shes home and i missed the nut.. leaving me more time to research. as far as arguing.I was pointing out that im a real dude with a real problem not just some forum jumping prick.im here to learn about my truck,"not argue" cause I posted at more than one forum.forums are for learning and interacting with people of like mind.If i have more than one source why would i not use all of them?when you buy parts for your truck do you just go the same place allways? or do you shop around somtimes to find the best deal.I posted several forums cause everyone has there resident expert,some old guy that knows his shizzle.and you are completely correct about the "copy paste" i wrote my question out on my word pad and copy pasted it to all 4.why would i go to 4 different sites and post different description of my problem?just so I dont look like a computer.theres a study that says over 60% of texter's and forum user's,esspecially facebookers read emotion into the conversation...73% of them were wrong about how they precieved the delivery of the message.your preety direct in short sentences,that typically is a sign of irratation.plus I see no gain bye pointing out I posted more than one forum and used the same discription other than just being a prick. so i feel safe saying your beeing less than nice in your reply's..ive been totally nice apoligizing to you when i dont need to justify why or what I do.eveyone else was very nice.all of this just because it was super important to me to fix my daughters truck as a suprize when she got home from vacation. so I hit up every site, forum, part house, anywhere I might get help...big deal,did you personally suffer do to my actions..I dont know if you have kids,if you do Im sure you know exactly what it feels like when all you want to do is make everything better,comfort them. if your not a dad..when you become one you'll relize how important they and their stuff becomes and how little yours matters.in your opinion i went overboard posting to many places,in my opinion i didnt do enough..So just for you in front of everyone let me say once again, sorry to you and anyone else I offended bye posting in more than one forum out of the 200,000 that came up.and thank you to everyone else that gave me possitive feed back,i did find a couple things i would have never thought to look at. but due to your help their variables that have been eliminated. also i wana apoligize to the other members,admin, and mod's for my curt words and profanity in this reply, but really what a peety thing to bring up..thanks for your unkind words,it'll keep me motivated.they say never speak when you can listen,the only problem is you have nothing of value to say,just insults.guess ill go somewhere guys like to share and help without the bullshizzle bashing.just because im having 3 link problems doesnt mean im a newbie as so many like to call it.to bad I probly could have contributed alot of back wood knowledge,been sand dragging for 20 some odd years, and pullin since the day my feet reached the pedals of my mini vega wagon puller

Edit Rocko: Edited out the cussing.

[Obi..]

Wait, what?? I merely pointed out a basic piece of info, gave you an appropriate answer, as did a couple other people re-iterating that and you come back with all that worded rant on me? WOW, whatever.

I hope you get the help you need and get things fixed. You obviously don't need my feedback. Sorry if you interpreted things differently. :drink:



wow, why are you so bitter?you come off like I personally attack you or somthing.I apoligized for the double post,I nicely ask if you had some advice?? admited I didnt do any in depth searching, but I explained why and ive been searching now shes home and i missed the nut.. leaving me more time to research. as far as arguing.I was pointing out that im a real dude with a real problem not just some forum jumping prick.im here to learn about my truck,"not argue" cause I posted at more than one forum.forums are for learning and interacting with people of like mind.If i have more than one source why would i not use all of them?when you buy parts for your truck do you just go the same place allways? or do you shop around somtimes to find the best deal.I posted several forums cause everyone has there resident expert,some old guy that knows his shit.and you are completely correct about the "copy paste" i wrote my question out on my word pad and copy pasted it to all 4.why would i go to 4 different sites and post different description of my problem?just so I dont look like a computer.theres a study that says over 60% of texter's and forum user's,esspecially facebookers read emotion into the conversation...73% of them were wrong about how they precieved the delivery of the message.your preety direct in short sentences,that typically is a sign of irratation.plus I see no gain bye pointing out I posted more than one forum and used the same discription other than just being a prick. so i feel safe saying your beeing less than nice in your reply's..ive been totally nice apoligizing to you when i dont need to justify why or what I do.eveyone else was very nice.all of this just because it was super important to me to fix my daughters truck as a suprize when she got home from vacation. so I hit up every site, forum, part house, anywhere I might get help...big deal,did you personally suffer do to my actions..I dont know if you have kids,if you do Im sure you know exactly what it feels like when all you want to do is make everything better,comfort them. if your not a dad..when you become one you'll relize how important they and their stuff becomes and how little yours matters.in your opinion i went overboard posting to many places,in my opinion i didnt do enough..So just for you in front of everyone let me say once again, sorry to you and anyone else I offended bye posting in more than one forum out of the 200,000 that came up.and thank you to everyone else that gave me possitive feed back,i did find a couple things i would have never thought to look at. but due to your help their variables that have been eliminated. also i wana apoligize to the other members,admin, and mod's for my curt words and profanity in this reply, but really what a peety thing to bring up..thanks for your unkind words,it'll keep me motivated.they say never speak when you can listen,the only problem is you have nothing of value to say,just insults.guess ill go somewhere guys like to share and help without the bullshit bashing.just because im having 3 link problems doesnt mean im a newbie as so many like to call it.to bad I probly could have contributed alot of back wood knowledge,been sand dragging for 20 some odd years, and pullin since the day my feet reached the pedals of my mini vega wagon puller

[hillbillyz]

hahahahahahahahahaha and aaahhh.one of the other forums i posted in was able to tell me my problem,how to fix it, and rework a few things for further improvment all in 3 post,2 guys,not even a breath of negativity. it wasnt a total loss here though, 1 little push and you just gave me in 2 days what i would of had to research for weeks in books for my pshyc term paper,ha.You and your booze drink icon."worded rant",that was nice bye the way,i couldnt come up with the rite term..good one, "worded rant" i like it kyle.

Wait, what?? I merely pointed out a basic piece of info, gave you an appropriate answer, as did a couple other people re-iterating that and you come back with all that worded rant on me? WOW, whatever.

I hope you get the help you need and get things fixed. You obviously don't need my feedback. Sorry if you interpreted things differently. :drink:



wow, why are you so bitter?you come off like I personally attack you or somthing.I apoligized for the double post,I nicely ask if you had some advice?? admited I didnt do any in depth searching, but I explained why and ive been searching now shes home and i missed the nut.. leaving me more time to research. as far as arguing.I was pointing out that im a real dude with a real problem not just some forum jumping prick.im here to learn about my truck,"not argue" cause I posted at more than one forum.forums are for learning and interacting with people of like mind.If i have more than one source why would i not use all of them?when you buy parts for your truck do you just go the same place allways? or do you shop around somtimes to find the best deal.I posted several forums cause everyone has there resident expert,some old guy that knows his shizzle.and you are completely correct about the "copy paste" i wrote my question out on my word pad and copy pasted it to all 4.why would i go to 4 different sites and post different description of my problem?just so I dont look like a computer.theres a study that says over 60% of texter's and forum user's,esspecially facebookers read emotion into the conversation...73% of them were wrong about how they precieved the delivery of the message.your preety direct in short sentences,that typically is a sign of irratation.plus I see no gain bye pointing out I posted more than one forum and used the same discription other than just being a prick. so i feel safe saying your beeing less than nice in your reply's..ive been totally nice apoligizing to you when i dont need to justify why or what I do.eveyone else was very nice.all of this just because it was super important to me to fix my daughters truck as a suprize when she got home from vacation. so I hit up every site, forum, part house, anywhere I might get help...big deal,did you personally suffer do to my actions..I dont know if you have kids,if you do Im sure you know exactly what it feels like when all you want to do is make everything better,comfort them. if your not a dad..when you become one you'll relize how important they and their stuff becomes and how little yours matters.in your opinion i went overboard posting to many places,in my opinion i didnt do enough..So just for you in front of everyone let me say once again, sorry to you and anyone else I offended bye posting in more than one forum out of the 200,000 that came up.and thank you to everyone else that gave me possitive feed back,i did find a couple things i would have never thought to look at. but due to your help their variables that have been eliminated. also i wana apoligize to the other members,admin, and mod's for my curt words and profanity in this reply, but really what a peety thing to bring up..thanks for your unkind words,it'll keep me motivated.they say never speak when you can listen,the only problem is you have nothing of value to say,just insults.guess ill go somewhere guys like to share and help without the bullshit bashing.just because im having 3 link problems doesnt mean im a newbie as so many like to call it.to bad I probly could have contributed alot of back wood knowledge,been sand dragging for 20 some odd years, and pullin since the day my feet reached the pedals of my mini vega wagon puller



Edit Rocko: Removed "prejudiced" insult.

[Obi..]

:headscratch: :screwy:

[04 Rocko Taco]

Okays guys, lets cool our jets right now. I think there was an easy misunderstanding here.

Hillbillyz - I thnk there was a point where this all went wrong, I beleive what Norcal was stating was that on your first post in this thread you mentioned that

you can check more about her ride at the intro forum.
I think all NorCal was saying was that he felt you had just made the same post as here in the intro forum. I just looked through your post history here to see what it was that you did post in the intro forum, and I dont see a post at all, I just see the 4 posts from this thread. But I think that was the misunderstanding. He wasn't saying anything negative about you copy and pasting the same post on multiple forums. (UY, and Pirate apparently) Let's not let this get personal. We are all here to have a good time and share information about our hobbies and our passion for this stuff.

NorCal - Keep it cool, you've been around here for some time and know how things work. We don't all always see eye to eye, and don't agree on things, and arguments like this can pop up. You've done a pretty good job, but just try to keep a level head and don't let this forum stuff get under your skin.

That being said, I have sent PM's to both of you. Keep it clean, and happy forum browsing to you!!

[Obi..]

Hillbillyz - I thnk there was a point where this all went wrong, I beleive what Norcal was stating was that on your first post in this thread you mentioned that

you can check more about her ride at the intro forum.
I think all NorCal was saying was that he felt you had just made the same post as here in the intro forum. I just looked through your post history here to see what it was that you did post in the intro forum, and I dont see a post at all, I just see the 4 posts from this thread. But I think that was the misunderstanding. He wasn't saying anything negative about you copy and pasting the same post on multiple forums. (UY, and Pirate apparently)


That.


AG/NP.

[corax]

That.


AG/NP.


Adult Geriatric Nurse Practitioner (http://www.all-acronyms.com/AGNP)!?!
:headscratch: :screwy:

Rocko, I think he's saying you change old people diapers :tease:

Seriously though, there's enough stress in life that forum drama is :gay:.
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41606_2346078629_3365458_n.jpg

[04 Rocko Taco]

Found me out!! How could you guys know about my side job?!? :hillbill:

[Obi..]

All Good, No Problem. As for what Corax posted true, and true. It is a pointless thing to argue inanely, and technically I'm the one who care's for a geriatric right now.

[Obi..]

Pretty odd and sad that this thread suddenly went dead here, and elsewhere. I was hoping the O/P would see things better and actually follow through with some tech posts.:headscratch:

hillbillyz, I hope you see where I was coming from on this after our moderator clarified it. If you have useful tech to share post away, include some nice pictures, I'd love to see this 3 linked monster. :wrenchin:

[Seanz0rz]

it appears all of you need some sort of adult supervision...

[Obi..]

LMAO..maybe, my wife hasn't spanked me lately. :angel: :clap:


Either way, I meant no harm and gave no ill will to this. Just a sad misinterpretation causing all sorts of drama. My peace has been offered and said, I'm good.

[Crinale]

it appears all of you need some sort of adult supervision...

x2 .. wow this post is kinda crazy.. and that guy must really like to type, cuz i sure wouldnt have written either of those 1000+ word posts :P

[troyboy162]

so it was spammed all over the internet but now only 2 results come up? im not following the spam cospiracy. ill buy that hes an odd ball though looking for advise on something he didnt know much about

[hillbillyz]

Im triing to fix the p.o.,z mess.ends up The center drag link was way to short caused the trucks front axle to shift side to side.it was 20
inch c to c. top mounted under frame rail on drivers side.lower mount center was just b4 the 3rd member (drivers side of "pumkin").tomorrow i'll cut it,make it longer and relocate the lower mount tabs. any thoughts where i should relocate the tabs? a good lengh for the drag link? the tire slop absorbed alot of it befor the new tie rods.I didnt post it anywhere but here, and one other site.anymore than that your guess is as good as mine??im not a computer or spam?i do use verizon,could be the reason it said Verizon Cellular.those still discussing the drama taco triied to scwash,we were both scolded and that was that.two excentric people argueing the same point.ive been 4 wheelin since my feet hit the pedals.this dam 3 link had me stumped,i use 4 links.but i still have 30+ yrs of expiriance to share once everyones had there chance to rib me :lol: i can take it

[04 Rocko Taco]

I'm not much help on the measurements or the location of mounts, but glad you seem to have the culprit figured out. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[DHC6twinotter]

Awesome! Glad you got it figure out! :thumbup:

[Obi..]

Some of this may help, honestly it's been a while since I've read them b/c these days it's 4link or leaf springs.
http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12905

A great resource for this sort of thing is also Wyatt Scott, or awsumdc. He isn't a member here but he has setup his own forum for solid axle swaps on http://www.rocksolidtoys.com/forum/forums.php

Some full size pictures of the entire front end would help to better see things and how it is setup. Get the links, the mount points, the measurements right now, etc, etc.

As for the tab placement question, pretty much you want to completely eliminate any axle wrap that will induce shudder b/c the caster shifts at the same time. How you do this is by using a high-low placement of the tabs.

Put your arm out in front of you and imagine how to keep it from twisting radially. If you have two completely level or close to level points the axle or in this case your arm simply pivots on that axis. Now, if you have a mount in the same line as your thumb, and another down towards the underside of your arm, almost in line with your elbow that twisting is almost eliminated through torsional resistance.

Hope that makes sense.

[hillbillyz]

thanks for the links,probly have to read it a couple times..haha, but i see what your saying.i know its 1/10th scale,but my crawler has aluminium black widow axles,look just like the real deal full size ones.Ive been playing with it on the table to figure whats stumping me. my front is 4 link, but the back is a 3 link just like the truck and its accually helping me learn alot about the differences on how the two work.

Some of this may help, honestly it's been a while since I've read them b/c these days it's 4link or leaf springs.
http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12905

A great resource for this sort of thing is also Wyatt Scott, or awsumdc. He isn't a member here but he has setup his own forum for solid axle swaps on http://www.rocksolidtoys.com/forum/forums.php

Some full size pictures of the entire front end would help to better see things and how it is setup. Get the links, the mount points, the measurements right now, etc, etc.

As for the tab placement question, pretty much you want to completely eliminate any axle wrap that will induce shudder b/c the caster shifts at the same time. How you do this is by using a high-low placement of the tabs.

Put your arm out in front of you and imagine how to keep it from twisting radially. If you have two completely level or close to level points the axle or in this case your arm simply pivots on that axis. Now, if you have a mount in the same line as your thumb, and another down towards the underside of your arm, almost in line with your elbow that twisting is almost eliminated through torsional resistance.

Hope that makes sense.

[hillbillyz]

your guess hits the nail on the head my friend..haha.Im not a robot or a spam cospiracy.the rest fits though..people tell me. but I have this dam verizon wi-fi crap.Ive been having problems with site registrations. somone mentioned some bad pings?are my post everywhere? I only see here and over at toyota offroad and I posted those? this helps account for the misunderstandings if im spamming the shiznats out of everybody and im posted everywhere. I better find a better deal, problem is im about 20 miles into the hills. nearest nieghbors 12. verizon only works cause im a cellular landlord,, incase people dont know that basically means i have a big arse antenna in my upper field. at 1600ft on the west face of portland it shoots rite on out to the beach un-abstrucked(bad speller..sorry) oh and i filled out my profile with my daughers set-up,dont know if that worked.im guna try and post intro to.computer crap dont work half the dam time
author=troyboy162 link=topic=9793.msg97934#msg97934 date=1310578184]
so it was spammed all over the internet but now only 2 results come up? im not following the spam cospiracy. ill buy that hes an odd ball though looking for advise on something he didnt know much about