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Thread: electric cars catching on?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptoroxx View Post
    Hate to say it but my personal opinion is that electric isn't the answer for personal transport yet. Don't get me wrong I think the development of batteries and hybrid are both amazing but I will bet my bottom dollar the winner is going to be who comes out with a safe hydrogen setup. Toyota is working on that currently in socal.
    Toyota is taking orders for the Mirai and the interest level has been dismal.

    "When the Chevrolet Volt first launched, GM-Volt.com had accumulated a want list of more than 50,000 consumers interested in the car, with more than 20,000 willing to put down a deposit – this without any promotion from GM itself.

    When the Nissan opened its web-portal for Americans to make $99 reservations on the LEAF, the site was instantly bogged down to a crawl.

    “We had 2,700 reservations in the first three hours,” reported Nissan’s senior director for customer management and business strategy. Some 117,000 had even signed up ahead of the launch expressing interest.

    So how about for the Toyota Mirai? The much touted and advertised fuel cell vehicle, whose “Request Portal” opened on July 10th?

    In the first 10 days of availability, Toyota reports 600 persons have expressed interest in being “contacted directly by a Toyota representative to explore the possibility of Mirai ownership.”
    Source: http://insideevs.com/initial-demand-...mirai-us-good/

    The carbon footprint of a fool cell vehicle is much higher than an EV and, at best, the efficiency will be 50% of an EV. People that have them say the refueling locations that do exist aren't set up for retail transactions, so often refilling takes more than 30 minutes. You can read more about all the fails on greencarreports.com. I see hydrogen as a no-go, except for maybe long-range trucking.

  2. #122
    For some reason UY won't let me edit my post. Here's are some of the issues with fuel cell vehicles:

    - The higher carbon footprint per mile required to drive on hydrogen versus using the same energy to recharge a battery-powered car;

    -The substantial cost (in the billions of dollars) of creating even regional hydrogen fueling networks, let alone a ubiquitous North American network that would give the same coverage as today's gas stations do;

    -The concern that hydrogen will end up costing roughly the same per mile as gasoline, while electricity's cost-per-mile to the consumer is usually lower, and often three to five times lower;

    -The belief that automakers are using hydrogen vehicles as a delaying tactic to retard the world's inevitable transition to electric vehicles powered from the grid;

    -The belief that "Big Oil" is behind hydrogen vehicles as a way to maintain its market for fossil fuels, since most hydrogen today is made from natural gas; and even

    Some of the 70 or so Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV drivers in Southern California have complained that they can't reliable refuel their cars, which they've leased over the last year. Source: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...nch-approaches

    California only has 48 hydrogen stations that are either planned or funded. The cost to add new hydrogen stations are in the billions, as opposed to running some wire in the ground to support electric vehicle charging.

    What angers most EV owners more than anything are Toyota's anti-EV ads. How can you bash EVs and meanwhile try and sell a car you can only refuel in southern California? (And not reliably, at that.)

  3. #123
    While I agree the infastructure is not built for retail currently here are some of the pros of moving to hydrogen versus electricity.

    Most of America's electricity comes from coal. While I agree the carbon footprint of the car is lower.....the carbon footprint of increasing usage on an already taxed electrical grid on top of the materials needed to make the batteries. Those processes are inherently dirty right now and require extensive development before it is a smaller footprint than hydrogen when the total energy cycle is reviewed.

    The new taxes and requirements for coal plants set to take effect very soon will make a big impact in the cost of electricity across the board so the price per mile will be much closer to hydrogen than right now.

    If there were more interest in nuclear plants the carbon footprint would be lower than hydrogen. Alas that was ruined by the government as well.

    Most cars can be modified to run on hydrogen quite well making it a less costly conversion for the individual. Large investments are what this country strives on. It's a big risk......but the returns would also be huge.

    While the idea of exiting fossil fuels is a wonderful concept and idea it will not end overnight even if our cars are all electric. The power has to come from somewhere. There is not enough power generated by tidal, solar, wind, and nuclear to eliminate the natural gas and coal fueled power plants. All we will end up doing is burning more fossil fuels to make less power after the inefficiencies of the electrical production, transportation, transformation, charging, and finally the running of the electric car. There's a lot of loss of potential energy in all of those equations.

    Shortening the supply chain will produce greater efficiency over all at this point in our development. I am sure it the future with the development of fusion electricity would tip the scales.

    The small businesses and franchises that would develop surrounding the infastructure needed for hydrogen would be worth more than the continuation of public/private run power company conglomerates in my opinion as well. The expansion of the power grid might cause jobs to be created but they would all fall within existing companies territories.
    98 3rz 4x4 5spd- Monstalined, 99 Talls, 4.30 E-locker, Extra Lights
    In Progress:
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  4. #124
    I am not opposed to development of fuel cell technology, but I sure as heck won't be buying it. Compared to an EV, a Mirai costs over twice as much to buy, cannot be refueled anywhere near the city I live, and if there was a hydrogen station I would have to go out of my way to refuel vs my EV that charges in my driveway, oh yeah, and the Mirai makes even my ugly Leaf look like a gorgeous car!

    I can see these things being more practical 15 years from now if a huge amount of money is spent on the infrastructure to support it. Every technology has to start somewhere. Until then, I'll be relying on my plug for refueling. :-)

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by paddlenbike View Post
    I am not opposed to development of fuel cell technology, but I sure as heck won't be buying it. Compared to an EV, a Mirai costs over twice as much to buy, cannot be refueled anywhere near the city I live, and if there was a hydrogen station I would have to go out of my way to refuel vs my EV that charges in my driveway, oh yeah, and the Mirai makes even my ugly Leaf look like a gorgeous car!

    I can see these things being more practical 15 years from now if a huge amount of money is spent on the infrastructure to support it. Every technology has to start somewhere. Until then, I'll be relying on my plug for refueling. :-)
    I remember when electric was the same thing. You got like 20 miles of range, had to charge overnight and was only slightly bigger than a golf cart.

    I can agree that oil has much better purposes than gasoline and diesel though.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
    98 3rz 4x4 5spd- Monstalined, 99 Talls, 4.30 E-locker, Extra Lights
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  6. #126
    The Tesla Model S "broke" Consumer Reports scoring system, with a final score of 103 on a scoring sytem that, by definition, does not go past 100. The video is long but the first few minutes explains how this car will change their future ratings for other cars.
    http://insideevs.com/consumer-report...-s-p85d-video/

    It's a damned expensive car, but just like formula 1 and other forms of racing, the technology and its performance virtues will get cheaper and trickle down to something we can all afford.
    Last edited by paddlenbike; 08-27-2015 at 07:58 AM.

  7. #127
    I am pretty sure Tesla does not make this mistake. I get these letters about once a month saying they haven't seen my 2013 Nissan Leaf for service in a while and offer me cheap oil changes, timing belts and tune-ups. I do have tires they could check, oh, and the interior wash & vacuum would be nice.


  8. #128
    Lol...
    -------------------------
    Steve
    1993 4runner, SAS, 3.0L, Auto Tranny
    2007 4runner, stock. For now.

  9. #129
    not sure who here reads waitbutwhy, but here is some 'light' reading on elon musk, tesla, EVs, and more... good info on EV vs hydrogen vs other technologies. (parts 1 and 2 specifically)

    http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/05/elon-m...ddest-man.html

  10. #130
    Tomorrow marks year 2 of 3 on our leased Nissan Leaf. It is still working very well for our family. It's our primary car at this point as we are putting 12,000 miles a year on it and far less on our other cars. The torque is awesome, the app-controlled climate control is great during hot/cold weather so you're never climbing in a frozen-over car, no maintenance and never visiting the gas station are my favorite features. Not much can beat it in stoplight races and it has embarrassed many small-penis coal-rollin' diesel pickup owners.

    Leafs are known for battery capacity loss in hot climates, and I certainly live in a hot climate. I started tracking capacity loss via a bluetooth OBD II reader and an app called Leafspy. Since June of 2015 the amp-hours of the 400V lithium battery have gone from a high of 58.64 amp hours to today's reading of 58.19 amp hours, representing less than 1% loss. I only have this car for three years so I have no concerns over battery degradation, but I would be concerned if I was keeping longterm like I do my other cars.

    My advice: with 200+ mile EVs coming late this year, there is no reason to be stuck with an 84 mile car like mine. 200 miles + an expanding charging infrastructure (at least in my area--for yours check plugshare.com), means a very usable car compared to what I currently have.

    If you plan to buy and keep it longterm, I would recommend getting an EV that has a temperature-controlled battery as they hold up much better in climate extremes. New battery chemistries promise to tolerate heat better, but lab environments never seem to accurately replicate real conditions, so we will see on that one. The current Leaf does not have battery cooling.

    I have one year left on this car and the jury is out whether or not I replace it with another EV. The 2017 Leaf should have 200+ miles of range, the Chevy Bolt will too, and the Tesla Model III is coming late '17. I am not willing to pay much more than I am now for my lease, so if the new tech costs too much I will go back to driving the 4Runner.

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