The Movie "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

[MTL_4runner]

Here's an interesting idea on how to make Hydrogen on demand:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18700750/

Right now the only technology I'd go out and buy is a Hybrid, but in the future, I think we're going to have alot more choices to make. Cheap fuel cells would really cause a revolution because their weight and efficiency both make them much better than an IC engine......that would be the scenario which I could see an electric car surviving (perhaps with a supplimentary battery source for regenerative braking).

[Markduce]

Yeah, like a hydrogen hybrid. Regenerative braking I think is a short term answer for the short range issue hydrogen has right now.

[Texas Jim]

They said in the movie that the Ni-cad battery was giving the electric car a range of 300 miles. That was 2 years ago. I feel the problem with hydrogen right now is it's too volital plus the chamber that it is to be stored in had to be very sturdy. IE Challenger Space Shuttel, of course that was also 1980's technology, hopefully there are some viable alternatives to being tied to the stinking Arabes for oil and we can get the heck out of the middle east and let them all kill each other in the name of Alla.... TJ

[patrickryanb]

I did like the quote in the movie that stated electric cars can only suppport the needs of 90% of the population. I feel that in the correct situation the electric cars would be a great step in the right direction. If commuters in bigger cities had these cars or if they became more prevalent, that would ease the demand on foreign oil, thus reducing prices for all other petroleum run vehicles. I think everyone knows who calls the punches in the economy and in the government. The oil companies haven't built a new refinery in over 20 years. The GM company got the heat from big oil about the electric cars it was producing, and then pulled the plug. I think that a manufacture needs to come out and say screw the oil companies and offer a product like the electric car. Hydrogen vehicles are still many years off. The fuel is expensive, the car is expensive, its all quite expensive. Anyway my 2cents.
patrick

[MTL_4runner]

I finally got to see the movie and it was a good documentary IMHO. I really wasn't too bothered by it except for the part where all the car companies refused to sell the vehicles and took back each and every one only to needlessly crush them. That was just an outrageous waste of resources.....why would you further your losses by crushing these cars (esp GM who was already reeling back then from major blows by Toyota and Honda). They should have just let the people buy out the vehicles and spare themselves the bad press, but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

I think the one great result from having the foreign car companies surpassing their US counterparts is the fact that fear of getting out-lobbied during a period of rapidly changing legislation drove them to create the gas/electric hybrid vehicle segment in the first place. Now that those hybrids are becoming more viable and affordable on a daily basis, the next logcal step (as the film mentions) is to attach a charging system to the vehicles. So I come away from that film saying to myself no one really killed the electric car at all.....the general public just wasn't willing to change that fast and needed a bridge technology to be acceptable (ie only early adopters were leasing EVs). The electric car is not even close to dead, it's just in transition and my bet is that as gas prices at the pump climb, no oil company's efforts will be good enough to stop the progress at this stage of the game.

[Markduce]

I found it a waste yes, but it was their property. They can do as they please with them. That is why they never allowed people to buy them in the first place. And, im sure they dont want them out there for lawsuit, parts, and insurance reasons.

[Robinhood4x4]

FYI, here's GM's response:
http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html

[Good Times]

For those of you that have not watched this movie and live in the San Gabriel Valley area (Southern California), a free screening will be available by the City of South Pasadena as they will be holding their first ever Clean-Air Car Show & Film Festival. First screening will be at 11:00 AM at the Rialto Theatre on Fair Oaks and Oxley and the second screening will be at 3:30 PM. They're suppose to have some cool next-gen vehicles there on display (dunno the exact make and models) but that's what I've found so far. Looks like a big event so check it out (no affiliation).

If you guys are there, look for me as I plan to be there to catch the freebie movie (not sure what which screening I'll catch though!) Don't want to miss out on the action here so I gotta catch up and watch the freebie movie!

[Texas Jim]

FYI, here's GM's response:
http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fastlane_Blog_2.html

After you read this you still think the movie's correct.

I also want to tell this guy "I have something, I want him to hold in his mouth!!" TJ

[MTL_4runner]

It's ironic this documentary was made fairly recently because I just read in the paper that Nissan Motor Co is now looking to switch from using NiMH (nickel metal hydride) batteries (the 2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid uses NiMH technology licensed from Toyota) to using Li-ion (lithium ion and more specifically lithium polymer technology) batteries because they have a much higher power density. This switch is considered by CEO Carlos Ghosn to be a major competitive advantage. Here's the best part.....they said that the battery technology will be good enough to not only create some incredibly efficient hybrids, but to actually switch to making a truely viable electric car (unlike the prior failed attempts in the 90's due to low range constraints). They went on to say that Nissan will be doing field testing in Japan soon and are working on installing the charging infrastructure in cities needed to charge the fleet of several hundred test vehicles.

Sound familiar?

So has the electric car's time finally come now?

If the price of oil stays high like it is, my bet is that we're only talking about "when" not "if" they will come. History is filled with lots of great ideas were lost because they came before their time so hopefully we'll begin seeing these new electric vehicles with better ranges and hybrid vehicles (that also have charging capability) that will achieve truely impressive fuel economy at a reasonable price. Funny how history repeats itself like that.


Here's a little chart for you guys on power to weight ratio:

Type of Battery Power/weight
Lithium Polymer 3000 W/kg
Standard Li-ion 2000 W/kg
Typical NiMH 250-1000 W/kg <= this is what all the current Hybrid vehicles are using
Standard NiCad 150W/kg

Just to give you some idea of what this means I'll do the math out for everyone. First you need to know that 1 HP is equal to 750 watts or 0.75 kW of electrical power. Now if you take the Altima hybrid which has a 40HP (30 kW) of power and you're using NiMH, then those batteries are going to weigh roughly 30 KG or about 66 lbs. If you used Lithium polymer, the same power could be provided by just over 22 lbs of batteries. So lets assume now that you're willing to carry the same weight of batteries (30 KG or 66 lbs) that you had before when using NiMH. Now you've just gained an additional 80 HP (60 kW) bringing the total up to 120 HP (90 kW) of battery power!!!! So you can see how Lithium technology would spank the other technologies when properly developed and could finally result in a truely viable electric car.