O boy Obama

[Bob98SR5]

For those of you who are interested in a good website to search a politician's background and voting record, one of the sites I like is called Project Smart Vote at http://www.votesmart.org/

To make it easy for everyone:

Obama
http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=9490

Hillary
http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=55463

McCain
http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=53270

I highly encourage everyone to take time to vote based on prior history and facts. Can the candidate do what they say they will do? Have they been effective? Do they have a history of flipping on issues? I'm sure everyone has their own hot button issues so explore. To my knowledge, this website like factcheck.org, is largely apolitical.

Bob

[dontdo_that]

Thanks Bob! Great website. Although I have spent several hours reading up on voting records at senate.gov, its really time consuming as I find myself reading the actual legislation that senators are voting on (which is long and really.. fancily worded and hard for dumb people like me to understand).

Although this discussion has taken a slight turn off of the original topic, I believe it is warranted as fustercluck's original post serves to remind us all how important it is to thoroughly investigate and critique even those we come to trust the most (or more so than others).

[expatoz]

Together with what I believe is a fundamental disrespect for the founding principes of this nation...

You mean the principles of the white people who came to this country, stood on the aboriginal people, bought slavery onto this land, disregarded any ownership of the original peoples', and made their own laws upn which all people would HAVE to abide...boy are you being blinded by white history or what?

I would love to introduce you guys to a documentary some 14 years old now, called "The Fear of Color". It is truely an amazing and possibly life changing perspective of people of color in America and the challenge a white american posed to them in helping him to understand it's not just about working hard...Bob, do you really believe that there is equal and proportional representation by non-whites in the business or politcal sector presently? Do you believe (possibly) it is an equal playing field (I think you don't because you allude to some or your own racially negative experiences).

Here's the rub from my view...people of color have had to be subservient, polite and agreeable to get along in this white culture that they find themselves today. If they do not, people pull out the color card and deem them unsuitable for any positions of power or control. They face daily discrimination simply because of the color of their skin, a discrimination that white people do have to face because its their world. By the nature of my work as an educator I have daily face time with many people of color. I hear it regularly when I ask, that it is difficult for them to be treated equally simply because of implied (associated) stereotypes. The guy who is our maintainence man at school is Latino. He is a salt oif the earth guy, very reserved, respectful and gentle. He owns (given to him) an old Cadilliac that an elderly past parent of the school donated to him. He gets pulled over every month by police to check his legal status. He was born here, right in Studio City, 32 years ago! Man, its deep out there. When he and I go down the road for lunch together, its uncomfortable. People look at him and I feel the gazes.

Where am i leading with this? I think that Wright may not be well versed in speaking in ways that meet the dominant culture of this country as it stands today. But like many have said, you are free to take it or leave it. As a white person you have that freedom. As a person of color, you may understand the vitriol (Sp) of Wright, be it somewhat ill expressed?? It's time for people of color to stop being polite and meeting the dominant cultures demands. Yes I am swinging to socialism in some form. Without us all being more equal (which it will never be) we will never move forward as a civilization. Hell, things are crumbling - the foreign relations, financial structure and family cohesiveness is falling apart at a rapid rate, just like the environment.

Good discussion. Wish I had more time to post what i really think, LOL.

Thanks
Mark

PS - I do apologize if I am taking this somewhat off topic, but I think much of what is being said here is fundamental to making good decisions, both political and otherwise, in the future.

[oly884]

Together with what I believe is a fundamental disrespect for the founding principes of this nation...

You mean the principles of the white people who came to this country, stood on the aboriginal people, bought slavery onto this land, disregarded any ownership of the original peoples', and made their own laws upn which all people would HAVE to abide...boy are you being blinded by white history or what?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't see anything regarding race in the Constitution. Please point out the 'white history' in the constitution.

Where am i leading with this? I think that Wright may not be well versed in speaking in ways that meet the dominant culture of this country as it stands today. But like many have said, you are free to take it or leave it. As a white person you have that freedom. As a person of color, you may understand the vitriol (Sp) of Wright, be it somewhat ill expressed?? It's time for people of color to stop being polite and meeting the dominant cultures demands. Yes I am swinging to socialism in some form. Without us all being more equal (which it will never be) we will never move forward as a civilization. Hell, things are crumbling - the foreign relations, financial structure and family cohesiveness is falling apart at a rapid rate, just like the environment.

It is time for people of color to stop being polite and meeting the dominate culture demands? What exactly are you trying to say?

It is clear that you are judging people by the color of their skin, white people that is. I don't think anyone should be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

As for the nice socialist comment, do you honestly think forcing people to be equal will solve problems or create more? What's your thoughts on it? Do you want to see people all making the same amount of money? Or force companies to hire a certain number of blacks, latinos, etc (regardless of whether they are qualified)?

[fustercluck]

Expat, where did the original occupants of this continent get this land? Who says it was theirs exclusively?

What is the difference between 'equality' and 'egalitarianism'?

There is no doubt people of all races were mistreated here as have been historically around the globe. You distort the image of man's inhumanity to man to you political advantage. My maternal ancestors were Cherokee. Most of them were slaughtered by the wave of Europeans who immigrated here and brought with them the barbaric traditions of Europe. I think it has taken generations of social evolution and refinement to evicerate the brutality from the general population. We are not the society we were by virtue of the personal edification afforded us by the constitution and the freedoms it recognizes.

The behaviors and attitudes displayed by Obama's preacher are more indicative of a return to barbarism, than to peaceful live and let live. I think that is a clear indication of a gangrenous infection caused by the unwillingness to heal....to forgive the tresspasses of others and emerge from adversity steeled against the tempests of life. If this pastor were truly Christian, there would be genuine forgiveness and submission to consequence. I think his judgement has been clouded by anger and hate. I think he has poisoned the members of that church to the extent that they were active....in Obama's case, that is twenty years of venom.

[Bob98SR5]

Do you think this is a temporary blip in Obama's numbers or do think this will be his version of Howard Dean's Scream and ultimately doom his presidential aspirations?
Source: http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/10525


Is Jeremiah Wright affecting Obama's poll numbers?
Updated at 9:30 p.m.

Sen. Barack Obama hit 50 percent to Hillary Clinton's 44 percent last week in Gallup's daily tracking poll. It was the largest advantage either contestant has had in the race since late February, according to Gallup.

Then Pastor-Gate went viral on Friday. And Obama's numbers have been steadily declining (while his negatives have ticked up). And today Gallup says Clinton is leading 47 percent to Obama's 45 percent. While not statistically significant, Clinton's two percentage point advantage in today's report is a notable shift from last week, the pollster says.

A separate pollster, Rasmussen, also finds the controversy is hurting Obama. And offers a jaw-dropping statistic. Only 8 percent of Americans have a favorable opinion of Obama pastor Jeremiah Wright.

The pollster also found that most voters, 56 percent, said Wright's comments (which included damning America) made them less likely to vote for Obama. The number includes 44 percent of Democrats.

Two-thirds of voters said they had heard about Wright and the controversy. (That prompted Bill O'Reilly to go off on his radio show this afternoon about how could a third of Americans be unaware of this issue. The Obama campaign is probably grateful that it's a third.)

Here's some solace for the Obama campaign and ammunition for the Clinton campaign via a USA Today poll since the survey was done this weekend. Both lead John McCain but Clinton is above 50 percent at 51 percent to McCain's 46 percent. McCain is closer to Obama with Obama at 49 percent and McCain at 47 percent. The two Democrats have overtaken McCain since the last survey in February by USA Today. (Other polls show McCain leading or tied).

Kate O'Beirne over at The Corner on NationalReview.com offered one of the most hilarious comments on the brouhaha. She said Michelle Obama should have included "nodding off during sermons" along with morning breath and smelly socks during her list of her hubby's faults.

Update: NBC's respected Chuck Todd said tonight, "This is potent" for Obama and he needs to hit a home run in his speech Tuesday in Philadelphia. He said it will be a week or so before the full implications of the Wright controversy will be known on Obama's poll numbers.

Do you agree with Todd's assessment?

**********


Personally, i think Obama will weather this storm unless there's nothing else unsavory for the press to latch onto. But like the article said, some people are less likely to vote for him now. This definitely has tinged my opinion of Obama and it has validated alot of the character issues i have with him as being "just another politician" who cannot be honest enough to say he messed up and move onto the important issues

Mark: i'll comment on your post later.

[fustercluck]

Obama blew it


What the candidate should have said about race.
By Michael Meyers
March 20, 2008
Tim Rutten's column, "Obama's Lincoln moment" and The Times editorial, "Obama on race" both miss the mark.

In my considered judgment as a race and civil rights specialist, I would say that Barack Obama's "momentous" speech on race settled on merely "explaining" so-called racial differences between blacks and whites -- and in so doing amplified deep-seated racial tensions and divisions. Instead of giving us a polarizing treatise on the "black experience," Obama should have reiterated the theme that has brought so many to his campaign: That race ain't what it used to be in America.


He should have presented us a pathway out of our racial boxes and a road map for new thinking about race. He should have depicted his minister, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., as a symbol of the dysfunctional angry men who are stuck in the past and who must yield to a new generation of color-blind, hopeful Americans and to a new global economy in which we will look on our neighbors' skin color no differently than how we look on their eye color.

In fact, I'd say that considering the nation's undivided attention to this all-important speech, which gave him an unrivaled opportunity to lift us out of racial and racist thinking, Obama blew it.

I waited in vain for our hybrid presidential candidate to speak the simple truth that there is no such thing as "race," that we all belong to the same race -- the human race. I waited for him to mesmerize us with a singular and focused appeal to hold all candidates to the same standards no matter their race or their sex or their age. But instead Obama gave us a full measure of racial rhetoric about how some of us with an "untrained ear" -- meaning whites and Asians and Latinos -- don't understand and can't relate to the so-called black experience.

Well, I am black, and I can't relate to a "black experience" that shields and explains old-style black ministers who rant and rave about supposed racial differences and about how America ought to be damned. I long ago broke away from all associations and churches that preached the gospel of hate and ethnic divisiveness -- including canceling my membership in 100 Black Men of America Inc., when they refused my motion to admit women and whites. They still don't. I was not going to stay in any group that assigned status or privileges of membership based solely on race or gender.

We and our leaders -- especially our candidates for the highest office in the land -- must repudiate all forms of racial idiocy and sexism, and be judged by whether we still belong to exclusionary or hateful groups. I don't know any church that respects, much less reflects, my personal beliefs in the absolute equality of all people, so I choose not to belong to any of them. And I would never -- as have some presidential candidates -- accept the endorsement of preachers of the gospel according to the most racist and sexist of doctrines.

But someone's race or religion is not mine or anybody else's concern. I couldn't care less that Wright is a Christian or that Louis Farrakhan professes to be a Muslim. I couldn't care less whether the hateful minister who endorsed John McCain is, deep inside, a decent man or a fundamentalist. But I do care about these pastors' divisive and crazed words; I do care that their "sermons" exploit and pander to the worst fears and passions of people based on perceptions and misperceptions about race. I hate that these preachers' sermons prejudge people's motives or behavior based on their race or ethnicity. I hate the haters, and I expected Obama to make a straightforward speech about what has become the Hate Hour -- and the most segregated hour -- in America on Sunday mornings.

I expected Obama, who up to now had been steering a perfect course away from the racial boxes of the past, to challenge racial labels and so-called black experiences. We're all mixed up, and if we haven't yet been by the process of miscegenation, trans-racial adoptions and interracial marriage, we sure ought to get used to how things will be in short order.

That would have been the forward-looking message of a visionary candidate. But Obama erred by looking backward -- as far back as slavery. What does slavery have to do with the price of milk at the grocery store? He referenced continuing segregation, especially segregated public schools, but stopped short. What is he going to do about them? How does he feel about public schools for black boys or single-sex public schools and classes? What does the gospel according to Wright say about such race-based and gender-specific schemes for getting around our civil rights laws?

We can't be united as a nation if we continue to think racially and give credence to racial experiences and differences based on ethnicity, past victim status and stereotypical categories. All of these prejudices surrounding tribe-against-tribe are old-hat and dysfunctional -- especially the rants of ministers, of whatever skin color or religion, who appeal to our base prejudices and to superstitions about our supposed racial differences. The man or woman who talks plainly about our commonality as a race of human beings, about our future as one nation indivisible, rather than about our discredited and disunited past, is, I predict, likely to finish ahead of the pack and do us a great public service.

Michael Meyers is executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition and a former assistant national director of the NAACP. These views are his own.


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...,5615767.story

[fustercluck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CILIBlQ2D0Q Watch and listen.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM Watch and listen.

Let the shocking relief of one man's love for his country vs. one man's hate for it demonstrate by association whom Barack chooses as his mentor....better he should hang with Ray that Jerry.