water to HHO in gas engine

[mastacox]

Right, this is my hypothesis as to how the gains are made for nearly all of these systems. As you know, water injection helps to alleviate the heat problems from a lean condition in the engine. Which makes me wonder 2 things, number one being that if this is the method that these people use to gain mileage under the false pretense of 'creating' energy from water via hydrogen.

also

If one could create a water injection system and simultaneously lean the engine out to a safe degree to obtain better mileage. Obviously, the mechanics of this are understood, and due to that, can be controlled much more precisely.

Thoughts?

Makes sense... If you want to get 25% better mileage by using 25% less fuel, you would have to run the engine at an AFR of about 18:1 assuming the same amount of throttle was used as would otherwise be done with a standard AFR. Of course, a similar effect can be had by just using less gas pedal in the first place...

Problem is, if you're running 25% less gas (and assuming you're running a water injection system to keep your EGT down), you'll make 25% less horsepower. Odds are people would tend to use more gas pedal to make up for this fact since the engine would probably feel sluggish as well as rough-idling. Because they are using more throttle, they would either use about the same amount of gas as before the modification (except now the engine runs like crap and uses distilled water too), or they might even use more than 80% throttle while accelerating, pushing the engine into open-loop where the ECU ignores oxygen sensor feedback and dumps in about 12.0:1 AFR.

Basically, everyone wants a magic bullet where they can drive the same way they always have, but get 100% better mileage (I would love to bolt a magic gadget to to my engine and get the same horsepower plus 50 mpg). This is of course impossible if you have the same weight, same aerodynamics, same engine efficiency, and same driving style.

[mastacox]

I think the best chances of significantly improving engine efficiency in the near future are:

1) Extracting energy from the exhaust. The exhaust is HOT, and that's energy down the tubes. If you can somehow convert a significant portion of that energy back to mechanical work, you could increase the engine's efficiency by 30-40%! Something like BMW's turbosteamer concept.

2) High-temperature resistant materials. If the engine could run at a higher tempertuare, you would lose less energy through the radiator keeping the engine within operating temperature. In theory, if a fully-ceramic engine could have an operating that is the same as the stoichiometric flame temperature of gasoline (or any of the alchohols) you would have a huge increase in efficiency. Even if the engine's operating temperature only increased to something like 500 degrees, that would be quite an improvement over 180-200 degrees.

[oly884]

Right, this is my hypothesis as to how the gains are made for nearly all of these systems. As you know, water injection helps to alleviate the heat problems from a lean condition in the engine. Which makes me wonder 2 things, number one being that if this is the method that these people use to gain mileage under the false pretense of 'creating' energy from water via hydrogen.

also

If one could create a water injection system and simultaneously lean the engine out to a safe degree to obtain better mileage. Obviously, the mechanics of this are understood, and due to that, can be controlled much more precisely.

Thoughts?

Makes sense... If you want to get 25% better mileage by using 25% less fuel, you would have to run the engine at an AFR of about 18:1 assuming the same amount of throttle was used as would otherwise be done with a standard AFR. Of course, a similar effect can be had by just using less gas pedal in the first place...

Problem is, if you're running 25% less gas (and assuming you're running a water injection system to keep your EGT down), you'll make 25% less horsepower. Odds are people would tend to use more gas pedal to make up for this fact since the engine would probably feel sluggish as well as rough-idling. Because they are using more throttle, they would either use about the same amount of gas as before the modification (except now the engine runs like crap and uses distilled water too), or they might even use more than 80% throttle while accelerating, pushing the engine into open-loop where the ECU ignores oxygen sensor feedback and dumps in about 12.0:1 AFR.

Basically, everyone wants a magic bullet where they can drive the same way they always have, but get 100% better mileage (I would love to bolt a magic gadget to to my engine and get the same horsepower plus 50 mpg). This is of course impossible if you have the same weight, same aerodynamics, same engine efficiency, and same driving style.

You are correct, there is no magic bullet, and never will be. As for the water injection/larger AFR, good point, the increase in mileage would be negligible due to the performance loss (if you make up for it by mashing on the gas more). Just a thought.

As for getting the engine hotter, that's the ticket. You can put in a hotter thermostat to help, ever so slightly. However, the risk of running hot and causing problems in the engine seem to take precedent.

Ceramic engine, now that's a sweet idea! The only problem with heat is the cost of materials (as you know). I would be fun to design engines to run much, much hotter.

I will say that the largest gain I've noticed in mileage is #1 decreasing drag, and a close #2 decreasing weight.

When I put my camper on my truck, not only do I add weight (approx 700 lbs), I add a VERY large amount of area. As a result my mileage hits between 13-15 in the city, and 18 or so on the highway (60-65 MPH)

With out it, I get 18 in the city and 20ish on the highway.

[bamachem]

running an engine at a hotter temp is the ticket for efficiency. however, with dis-similar alloys and metals (also vs ceramics), that just isn't currently feasable. the expansion coefficients are screwing that idea up. in order to run an engine at 800+F in order to gain some really good efficiencies, then you'd have to have every mechanical part be made of the same alloy or ceramic so that it would expand and contract at the same rate with temp rise and fall. also, you'd have some serious concerns with fuel lines, etc at that high of temp, as well as comfort issues with the AC, etc.

for speciality applications, i can see the benefits, but for everyday use, it would be tough, and that's why it hasn't been done - YET.

[mastacox]

Worse than thermal expansion issues which can be gotten around with some creative engineering, wear characteristics of ceramics (especially at high temperatures) are not up to par with steels.

Still, its a cool little thought experiment.

[gogetit]

ok guys, im brand new to this site, but i got on here for exactly this forum. i need to know where the primary O2 sensor(s) wire(s) come into the ecu(s) in my wifes 2004 v6. i have been running the water4gas setup in my 2001 honda s2000 for about three months now and can honestly say that i went from 27 mpg to 40. it was a very simple system to install (two wires and a hose to the pre and post butterfly valve intake plenth. thats it. i have a couple write ups on www.s2ki.com if any of you want to go there and read them. it just pretty much goes through the process of me doing this. ive got pics showing it installed there too. im not making this up.

there is something that anyone trying this technology needs to know, that is not explained on any of the sites selling the electrolyzers. they all seem to push a map sensor adjuster, which is worthless, dont do it. what you do have to have, however, which i found out the hard way, of course, it something called an efie. this device, which is very tunable, slightly leans out the signal comming from the O2 sensors to the ecu. this is crutial, but no one really explains it on their electrolyzer sites. if you use an hho device, itll pump more O2, as well as H2 through your engine, which is the whole point. but in doing so, the O2 sensors tell the computer to dump more fuel to burn up the extra O2. what this all boils down to is that the system will work great for about a week or so and then your mileage will start to tank. this is exactly what happened to me in my s2000.

there are several versions of the efie out there but the best one ive found is the one made by fuel-saver.org he tells you how to make one for about 15 bucks, if you are so inclined, but im not so i bought one. several actually. there are single and dual O2 sensor setups. this pertains to the number of foreward/primary O2 sensors in the vehicle. the rear/post O2 sensors (after the cat. converters) are of no concern as this goes. also, i got the delux versions because they are in cab mounted and are very easy to just leave a volt meter hooked up to while driving to monitor the electrical offset they produce.

hopefully you guys believe me about all of this. im not trying to sell you anything. i really do need to know where these wires come into the ecu, and or if there is more than one ecu (i saw multiple ecu fuses under the hood). any help you can give me will very much appreciated. my car is way more simple that this 4runner. if anyone wants help/advice doing one of these setups i will be more than willing to tell you everything i know. ive already taken the electrolyzer out of my car and, just to see what happened, hooked it up to the extra vac. nipple on the post butterfly valve side of the intake manifold. there is a strong vacuum here, so keep the adjuster valve on top of the jar lid all the way tight when you start the car and them open it up two or three clicks or you could suck some water straight through the jar and into the intake. i didnt do it because i knew it could happen, but i immagine it could be very bad for someone who didnt know. after about ten seconds of running the hho through the intake, the valve ticking quieted down dramatically, which is exactly what happened to my s2000 too. the jar will eventually get hot and produce steam, which will get pulled into the engine, along with the gasses. dont put more that 1/4 tsp of baking soda or youll warp the plexi tower in the jar. this steam will clean out the carbon deposits off of your valves and other internals, helping overall efficiency.

well, now that ive talked youre eyes off, thanks for reading my post, and please help me find this O2 wire(s) answer. im an architect, not mechanic, and i really need a hand here.

[AxleIke]

Can't help with the ECU thing, but you claim a mileage increase of 27 to 40.

Are you counting ACTUAL MPG? As in, Miles per gallon of gasoline AND hydrogen. Or just gas? It would be good to see some real world numbers on this. If that is just gas, then I'm right, and the claims on this HHO thing are totally bogus, but if that is combined, then I'm wrong.

Just curious to see some real world data on that.

Also, did you get any pinging?

[BruceTS]

One thing that I can't understand is how the heck can they produce enough hydrogen to keep up with the volume needed.

I'm gonna build an huge electro magnet and attach it to the front of my 4Runner, with a drive system off my rear diff that will turn a alt to produce the power. Then simply attach myself to a big rig going down the highway.....

[surf4runner]

1) Extracting energy from the exhaust.

like this???

[dontdo_that]

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