Zeitgeist.....

[oly884]

Well, Oly and Fuster...I'm glad to see both of you having replied. I was hoping so.

Ignorance and laziness......half truths and distortions, Fuster? Have you read that Cooper article, yet? Granted, I know there's a lot of that out there with conspiracies, but it certainly doesn't exclude the debunkers. As if the debunkers have the whole truth and aren't motivated by their agendas? Fuster....come on, man.

But, Oly I am truly interested to hear what you have to say about what the truthers are completely ignoring. Believe me when I say though I do tend to lean towards conspiracy, I would like to believe things aren't so sinister. It is not fun.

I'll have to do some digging from articles I have read, but it goes from the temperature that steel melts to even the absurd argument that because the airplane was made from aluminum, it could not have 'penetrated' the steel building because steel is stronger than aluminum... There's a lot out there that is very misleading. I'm at work right now, but I can dig up some stuff later tonight.

Maybe you can answer this, though. Considering what Fuster said about the properties of metal, how is that such a tall, tall building with the given forces of wind and concentrated areas of heat on the steel structural beams fall STRAIGHT DOWN? And, what about building 7? (And, as I recall there were some engineers that had no vested interest in a conspiracy...and, probably even no knowledge of that kind of thing....that were questioned and had explained how very, very similar the nature of the collapse was to a controlled demolition. Hmmmm....)

I remember reading that building 7 collapsed because of large oil tanks beneath the building that were used for the emergency generators. Since the buildings were connected by tunnels the fire reached the oil tanks, and with that massive fire it collapsed.

However, fuster, how many bureaucrats actually know? How many knew about the death/assassination of JFK? How many bureaucrats (or other people, Oly) know the details of nefarious bills before they are slid through and passed? Such bills are not even nearly as hidden as something as monumental as a supposed inside job. There are so many things that are hidden from the majority of the gov't body jand other people (that may otherwise be against corruption),I don't understand how you could think it was inconceivable in the case of 9/11. Vietnam is a very good example. The things my wife's friend (who was in Vietnam) told me that he saw that our gov't was responsible for was never brought to the attention of most let alone the media and public would be very unsettling to a lot of people. Not until much later after the war did some of the corruption come to light. Okay, some people got their hand slapped, but a little too late don't you think?

Ok, I'll go as far as to say that pretty much anything is possible, but when I look at the evidence, and probability of 9/11 being an inside job, I cannot honestly say that I believe it. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm sure it all seems absurd, but so is what our economy has been based on. Look at how long that has been in affect. And, who's saying anything about it? Who's doing anything about it to steer the country (and, our world) in a different direction?

Oh, and how many bureaucrats,etc. know about slave labor and trade, keep their mouths shut, and continue on with their comfy lives? I don't see many sacrificing their lifestyles and reputations for the betterment of such situations. It's all about who has the power and what's at stake. There's a lot of control to be had there.

Anyway, aside from all the conspiracy/debunking hoopla...

I was talking with my wife about all this earlier over tea and a pipe (tobacco!! ) and it seems to me whether who's right or not, the debating is the real distraction and conspiracy to pay attention to. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I always tend to feel rather drained by the involvement. Although it's interesting for a bit, there doesn't ever really seem to be any resolution. Nobody seems to be really any closer together. In fact, they seem to be more divided and emotionally trapped. Polarized. In other words, whether or not 9/11 was an inside job or entirely outside, it has divided people. Theoretically, it could have been any kind of event other than 9/11 with even less importance (so to speak) and people still miss the obvious. We are being divided somehow, someway, and by somebody. Probably mostly by ourselves, but there really does seem to be a power set on accomplishing this. Could it be......SATAN?! Hehehe....

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So far, I am finding a lot of speculations and holes in this guy's theory even though some of it's pretty convincing.

I found some more info that reinforces conspiracy, as well. So, I'm taking some time to compare.

What's still confounding to me is that in pictures right after the collisions at the Pentagon....before clean up....I don't see the wreckage that would be from a 757. (767? 747?...hehe....different sources have said different things). Incinerated from the flames? That's a stretch considering the relatively little amount of damage done to the building right at the point of impact. Photos are shown of easily combustable material still very intact right where the plane supposedly was. Not to mention, the size of the hole was very small compared to what it would have to have been to have made the hole in the other ring....C, I believe?

MOre reading.....

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Could not have penetrated the steel building? In what context was that statement made?

I haven't read about any oil tanks, yet.

[thook]

I've been watching this in blurbs.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...17330806338693

Note: I don't take everything asserted in this film to be fact. I can see there have some speculations made, and as well some assertions are more an objective observation than a direct claim. However, there are some interviews with facts that are hard to argue. Not that said interviews are directly related to 9/11, but does show in fact that it's not inconceivable for 9/11 to be a cover up/inside job outside the knowledge of previously mentioned bureaucrats....and others.

I'm still reading/watching, but something I wanted to throw out there....even though I know it would seem preposterous (not to me, but to some)...is the idea that if there is a group of "rulers", it would seem as if all of this conspiracy stuff is exactly what they want. I mean, if you wanted to take over the world, why have a gov't/s that are pure in intention/without corruption and completely competent? If these same rulers have all the intelligence and means to keep something secret, how is it that these very secrets/classified information are even able to get out? Then again, maybe they don't have all the necessary means and intelligence, but to them it doesn't matter because they want the corruption to get out? In other words (I say that alot, don't I?), set up a pasty gov't for a fall making it necessary in the eyes of an easily guided public of completely distracted and desensitized sheople for a world gov't.???? I don't know, guys. There's a lot of terrorism out there, and obviously our gov't isn't up to the task. We gotta be safe somehow. Somebody's gotta oversee everything. Don't you think?

Keep watching the show. Sure looks a lot like a push for communism to me.

And, who was that McCarthy dude? They sure made him look like a ninny, didn't they?

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Oh, if you would, please read the Cooper article. Might read some of his other articles, too. What I've said above will make more sense. That is if you have the time and are interested.

[thook]

Last thing.....something else I wanted to mention.

If there is a group of rulers, wouldn't it be perfect to set up shills? Have a group of conspiracy theorists "allowed" to assert their claims publicly, but only allow them to do so because they don't have all the facts. It would be very easy, at this point, to make them ALL look like fools because it would at the same time be quite easy to debunk the claims. So much so that any persons with any REAL information were immediately associated in the same category by those who listened. The guys/gals with what seems to be REAL information seem to be dropping dead. Funny how the "shills" are still alive and well.

There's a public announcement made by JFK.....while he was still alive, of course.....that makes mention of "secret societies" in our gov't. I will have to find it. Unless, you all have already seen it???

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A REAL dude.....

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuvGE...eature=related

Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHtOq...eature=related

There is an edited version of this speech on youtube while this one....unedited...is clearly pertinent to the times. However, if you reflect on what was said and look at all the events from that time that lead up to know, it should be obvious that this is a foreshadowing of our present.

And, should the question arise, note he never said "communists", rather he said "secret societies".

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:John_F._Kennedy

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The buildings fell straight down because they were designed to just the same way your truck has crumple zones that absorb energy far from the point of impact. These characteristics are engineered into anything more complex than a hair drier...come to think of it, even those have preemptive safety features See? for some folks alittle info goes a long way or in this case a little ignorant observation goes too far.

Take some and watch a few controlled demolitions. Then, watch unintentional collapses. Youtube has plenty.

Interesting.....haven't seen this before. Even on the debunker site you posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9gd...eature=related