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Thread: Zeitgeist.....

  1. #11

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    I've been a bit preoccupied with our holiday guests and the phantom toilet clogger (no one will fess up...) to do much reading. I will say that every conspiracy theorist I have spoken to, when confounded with facts disputing their position, returns to the original question, "What temperature does steel melt at and what temperature was the fire at it's hottest?"

    They are further confounded when I declare that is not the salient question. With the forces applied to that steel, how hot must it be to lose it's integrity? Steel loses it's ability to support tons of weight to the point of collapse at a much lower temperature than what it takes to melt it. In fact anyone who has ever worked with steel knows that one can weaken it with natural flame to the point that a man can distort it's shape with his own strength.

    Ultimately, my experience with 911 conspiracy theorists is that they are more convinced by their own political agenda which is then projected onto the theory. They rely on half truths, distortions, ignorance and laziness to promote their perspective. No doubt they are seductive....if we ignore what we actually saw and believe a political conspiracy like this can actually be suppressed by the hundreds of bureaucrats that would have to be involved; the truth never to emerge from within.
    SI VIS PACEM PARABELLUM

  2. #12

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Quote Originally Posted by fustercluck
    Ultimately, my experience with 911 conspiracy theorists is that they are more convinced by their own political agenda which is then projected onto the theory.
    And the nail is hit on the head...

    I'm not going to argue that our liberties are being stripped, because they are. However, the idea that some core group of people are responsible for 9/11 all in order to take over the world goes beyond far-fetched. Granted, this is just my opinion, but when the notion of everything that would have to be done to accomplish that is really looked at (and not just accepted as "it just happened") you begin to see the absurdity of it all.

    How many hundreds, if not thousands, of people would have to remain completely silent about those events? What is the probability that no one would say a single word?

    And don't get me going on the engineering/science aspects of that day that truthers are completely ignoring.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  3. #13

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Well, Oly and Fuster...I'm glad to see both of you having replied. I was hoping so.

    Ignorance and laziness......half truths and distortions, Fuster? Have you read that Cooper article, yet? Granted, I know there's a lot of that out there with conspiracies, but it certainly doesn't exclude the debunkers. As if the debunkers have the whole truth and aren't motivated by their agendas? Fuster....come on, man.

    But, Oly I am truly interested to hear what you have to say about what the truthers are completely ignoring. Believe me when I say though I do tend to lean towards conspiracy, I would like to believe things aren't so sinister. It is not fun.

    Maybe you can answer this, though. Considering what Fuster said about the properties of metal, how is that such a tall, tall building with the given forces of wind and concentrated areas of heat on the steel structural beams fall STRAIGHT DOWN? And, what about building 7? (And, as I recall there were some engineers that had no vested interest in a conspiracy...and, probably even no knowledge of that kind of thing....that were questioned and had explained how very, very similar the nature of the collapse was to a controlled demolition. Hmmmm....)

    However, fuster, how many bureaucrats actually know? How many knew about the death/assassination of JFK? How many bureaucrats (or other people, Oly) know the details of nefarious bills before they are slid through and passed? Such bills are not even nearly as hidden as something as monumental as a supposed inside job. There are so many things that are hidden from the majority of the gov't body jand other people (that may otherwise be against corruption),I don't understand how you could think it was inconceivable in the case of 9/11. Vietnam is a very good example. The things my wife's friend (who was in Vietnam) told me that he saw that our gov't was responsible for was never brought to the attention of most let alone the media and public would be very unsettling to a lot of people. Not until much later after the war did some of the corruption come to light. Okay, some people got their hand slapped, but a little too late don't you think?

    I'm sure it all seems absurd, but so is what our economy has been based on. Look at how long that has been in affect. And, who's saying anything about it? Who's doing anything about it to steer the country (and, our world) in a different direction?

    Oh, and how many bureaucrats,etc. know about slave labor and trade, keep their mouths shut, and continue on with their comfy lives? I don't see many sacrificing their lifestyles and reputations for the betterment of such situations. It's all about who has the power and what's at stake. There's a lot of control to be had there.

    Anyway, aside from all the conspiracy/debunking hoopla...

    I was talking with my wife about all this earlier over tea and a pipe (tobacco!! ) and it seems to me whether who's right or not, the debating is the real distraction and conspiracy to pay attention to. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I always tend to feel rather drained by the involvement. Although it's interesting for a bit, there doesn't ever really seem to be any resolution. Nobody seems to be really any closer together. In fact, they seem to be more divided and emotionally trapped. Polarized. In other words, whether or not 9/11 was an inside job or entirely outside, it has divided people. Theoretically, it could have been any kind of event other than 9/11 with even less importance (so to speak) and people still miss the obvious. We are being divided somehow, someway, and by somebody. Probably mostly by ourselves, but there really does seem to be a power set on accomplishing this. Could it be......SATAN?! Hehehe....
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

  4. #14

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Lastly, quote for the day....even the millennium....

    " 'Tis better to light a candle than curse the dark". I think I'm going to meditate on this a great deal.
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

  5. #15

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    The buildings fell straight down because they were designed to just the same way your truck has crumple zones that absorb energy far from the point of impact. These characteristics are engineered into anything more complex than a hair drier...come to think of it, even those have preemptive safety features See? for some folks alittle info goes a long way or in this case a little ignorant observation goes too far.
    SI VIS PACEM PARABELLUM

  6. #16

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Okay. Thanks for the shedding light on my ignorance. Certainly explains some inconsistencies, but still doesn't disprove an inside job.......engh.
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

  7. #17

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Sorry, not your ignorance, conspiracy theorists'...I wasn't very clear.
    SI VIS PACEM PARABELLUM

  8. #18

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Hehe.....I figured you could've been talking about either...me or the theorists, but either way a good point. It is, of course, something I do not recall being mentioned nor something I even knew. So, truly my ignorance as well.
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

  9. #19

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Back with a little ammo.....<<tongue in cheek<<<

    Apparently, the building was designed to collapse in such a manner, but that is in the event of demolition. And, if I understand correctly, all building of this type are designed that way. This doesn't explain why the steel beams were cut, though. It doesn't explain the molten metal from the infrastructure found in the basement, either. And, the architects explained that the buildings were designed to take collisions from aircraft....multiple, even... with the infrastructure to remain intact. And, it doesn't explain the very large explosion in the basement before the intense fires had even a chance to reach that level.

    Hmmm...more reading.
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

  10. #20

    Re: Zeitgeist.....

    Well, after probably 2hrs of reading the website you posted, I can honestly say I'm not so sure anymore of an inside job. Atleast, not in the manner that has been presented. The conspiracies say no evidence was found of a jetliner at the Pentagon site. Yeah, so what about the photos provided? Looks like pieces of a jetliner to me. And, the gravel used to hide evidence? Yeah, so the dumpsters and trucks wouldn't sink into the soft lawn.

    I still haven't found anything to explain the cuts in the structural beams, but the preperations for the possibility of airliner impact were. Boeing 707's travelling at 180mph lost in fog does not equal 747's at 5-600mph. Not too mention the large difference in the amount of fuel. And, fuel dumping down through the entire building creating very large fires with intense heat? <<<<<NOT prepared for! Structural beams insulated by asbestos = amplified heat intensity. I'm finding it very difficult to argue.

    Hmmmmm....

    There's a lot more that I read, but I fell asleep after a point and so I'm going to continue reading later.

    Thanks, Fuster.
    &quot;All I know can be shown by your acceptance of the facts that are shown before you...&quot;

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