Details of the stimulus package

[DHC6twinotter]

A cool diagram from the Washington Post (sorry, if I knew how to do the click to enlarge deal, I would. Click on the link below for a larger image. )

[img width=347 height=800]http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/02/01/GR2009020100154.gif[/img]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020100154.html

[fustercluck]

Proof that change is not always good.

[Henrythewound]

One thing is for certain, the general working class is who is getting screwed. Bonuses continue to be awarded on Wall Street w/o penalties for when they screw up. There SHOULD be demand for "green" jobs such as more efficient autos, alt fuel sources but it seems the only thing that really motivates people is $$. When gas got slightly expensive ($4+/gallon) people started selling or not driving fuel inefficient vehicles, taking the bus or even riding a bike. there's nothing wrong with seeing a problem and acting on it before it gets dire.

If you knew your house had termites would you wait until it got really bad before you treated the problem? I an not an economist, I am a sort of pessimist in that based on the way money has been handed out I have low expectations for this stimulus. People are still greedy, others have not learned their lesson from their foreclosures, and the responsible few are paying for it. I am still in a job I enjoy and can afford to pay my mortgage, but this is partly based on decisions I made earlier in life which set me up in a stable position. The value of my home has dropped considerably in the past 2 years as a direct result of others greediness

[oly884]

One thing is for certain, the general working class is who is getting screwed. Bonuses continue to be awarded on Wall Street w/o penalties for when they screw up. There SHOULD be demand for "green" jobs such as more efficient autos, alt fuel sources but it seems the only thing that really motivates people is $$. When gas got slightly expensive ($4+/gallon) people started selling or not driving fuel inefficient vehicles, taking the bus or even riding a bike. there's nothing wrong with seeing a problem and acting on it before it gets dire.

If you knew your house had termites would you wait until it got really bad before you treated the problem? I an not an economist, I am a sort of pessimist in that based on the way money has been handed out I have low expectations for this stimulus. People are still greedy, others have not learned their lesson from their foreclosures, and the responsible few are paying for it. I am still in a job I enjoy and can afford to pay my mortgage, but this is partly based on decisions I made earlier in life which set me up in a stable position. The value of my home has dropped considerably in the past 2 years as a direct result of others greediness

Yes, there should be a demand for green technology, but there isn’t, and you are right, it is about money. Like it or not, that’s how the world runs. I’m not trying to justify it and say it is correct, but let’s look at a few things…

The way in which the ‘green’ movement has been pushed is by simple fear. No one I know of willingly wants to destroy the earth, rape the resources, and live in a barren desert for the rest of their lives, not one person. However, I know of many people that do WANT a better environment, but are frustrated with the paths that they are told they need to take (eg. Spend lots of money, buy this car, don’t eat this, etc, etc) it becomes less and less about the science behind it and more and more about the ‘green’ corporations and political activists that push ‘their’ agenda. The green corporations are no different than the oil companies, they will and have used bogus information for their financial gain. Let’s not ignore the fact that there’s a lot of information that keeps coming out saying that some of these once thought ‘green’ ideas are worse for the environment. Just look up ethanol as a biofuel.

As an engineer, I have modeled and worked on several ‘green’ buildings, but when it comes time to discuss the performance, the owner and architect are wondering why it’s not saving TONS of money, well, it’s simple, they were marketed to by a company selling the ‘green’ idea. Nothing more. They’ll spend $100,000 more on a project to save $1,000 a year in energy bills, doesn’t make much sense even if energy costs quadrupled. Like I said, the green movement has become more about making money though fear tactics and ‘feel good’ talk, most has little to do with what will not only make sense, but what will ACTUALLY WORK. This is not to say that there is not technology out there that is truly green and will really make a difference in the world, there is, but a bit of research and scientific understanding goes a LONG way towards helping the environment instead of listening to and believing someone who sells carbon credits talk about how bad global warming will become….

As far as the termite analogy, that is trying to match a simple problem with a problem a billion times more complicated. You can kill termites pretty easily, solving ‘climate change’ has yet to have an ‘easy button.’ We could go back and forth on the validity of the climate change problem and how much of it is man made, how much is simply part of how the world works…. At this point, it doesn’t matter much. If the climate is changing, then why not spend the time figuring out how to ADAPT to the change, as opposed to trying to stop the world from warming. After all, no scientist I’ve heard of will say that the earth has never changed temperatures, right? Even if we were not emitting CO2, etc, the earth would still warm, correct? If that’s the case, then why are we worrying about it warming if we already know it’s going to warm REGARDLESS of what we do? Why not take the time to prepare and adapt for these ‘changes’ that are coming? Whether we are making it warm faster or not does not make a difference, it’s changing, it will change, and there’s nothing we can do to stop it, so let’s get ready for it and not waste our energy and time on trying to stop it.

Ok, off my little ‘green’ soap box 

On to the financial issue:

You are 100% correct, people are greedy, and that greed has caught up with us, however, while capitalism can create greed, it can also destroy it. Jumping on the socialism bandwagon is only going to make things worse. Unfortunately, it looks like that’s exactly what Obama and the gang wants to do. I have yet to hear a logical argument about how spending money (as opposed to cutting taxes) is going to fix this problem. Cut taxes and people take home more money, when people have more money, they can pay off debts faster and start buying again. Spending money to create all these jobs will do two things:

1. It will definitely create jobs and at the same time, spend all the money we are ‘loaning’ to them
2. When that money is gone, all these jobs that were created will need to have money to pay the workers, well where does the government get more money? Oh, right, raise taxes. At that point it will be needed and they will justify it by saying, “if we don’t raise taxes, we will have to lay off tons of people and that will cause the economy to get worse” So, we then get to welcome higher taxes.

So, this spending bill that is being proposed/passed is going to make things worse, take a look at the polls to see what people think about it, then look at what congress/the pres is going to do. They will pass it, and not listen to you and me, from the sounds of it, I’d consider that a government that is starting to go out of control and not listen to the citizens it is supposedly supposed to represent….

[DHC6twinotter]

Anyone seriously know of other countries in this world that are not going down the path of socialism/communism? I want to raise a family, and I'm becoming more and more scared that it's just not going to happen here.

I lived in the Philippines for 8 years, and really enjoyed it. My parents were there for 14, and they go back for almost 2 months out of the year. It has a Democratic type government with a president elected every 6 years and a congress comprising of a Senate and House of Representatives. The Philippines is a developing country and there is corruption in the government (so do we though), but it seems far from a socialistic country at this point. Folks do get shot over elections there, and unfortunately, it's kinda a way of life. Other than the thieves, people are super cool there. The are very friendly, generous, and kind hearted. Lots of good food, nice beaches, hot weather, and typhoons.

Abduction may be a concern for Americans in the southern part of the Philippines, but where we lived in Cebu City on the island of Cebu, things were pretty safe. My parents raised myself and my two siblings there, and I have friends that raised there kids up in Manila. I miss it bad.

Anyways, Philippines gets my vote. It's not perfect, but it isn't socialistic either.