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Thread: Dynamic Tire balancing?

  1. #11

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    I had a few discussion about balancing beads like this previously as well...

    Anyway, I had been down at the 2005 World Tire Expo and I spoke to the Presidents of both Equal and Counteract and I have to say I think that Equal seems to be more popular because it is the older product in the market, but that counteract has a better product for a few reasons.

    1) Counteract doesn't clump nearly as bad as others do when wet and due to the shape of the particles and also dries more quickly (Counteract did a test against Equal and Magnum and Counteract provided the least resistance when wet....thus it is also most efficiently distributed even when wet).

    You can see a comparison of what each looks like here:
    http://www.counteractbalancing.com/compare.htm

    2) The real secret to the advantage of counteract over Equal is that Counteract creates more static charge than Equal (you guessed it, again, composition and shape). He told me that they are not able to publish this because Equal sued them in the US and got a court order against them such that they are not allowed to use that fact as part of their marketing (but it is a property you can clearly see in the product displays) and can be fined for mentioning it to US citizens (he thought I was a Candadian so he told me ). What this does is to supposedly slow the shifting of the material and reduce the material from having to completely rebalance during acceleration (ie you may feel a momentary shake while it shifts inside as you get up to speed with Equal before it smooths out).

    The counteract sales director said he would get me some free samples to try for my truck so I will report back after I see how well it does. He did say that "less is more" when balancing tires and you shouldn't need more than 3-4oz for even large passenger truck tires (that way you get maximum advantage from the static property and little excess material movement) and that should be fine for both on and offroad use. He said that they are working on a product for low profile tires, but he said you should use the "Counteract Balancing Beads - Truck Product" for SUV's, pickups, vans and tractor trailers with normal profile and oversize tires. He said retail it goes for about $13 a bag (comes with a special valve core and step cap too) so not too bad for a set of tires but said you can find it for less from dealers.

    Funny part is that both claim to have never been taken up on the performance guarantee to refund the purchase price if you are unhappy with the product. They both also joked that you can use sand or gravel and it does work, but it will eventually wear through your tire and rim....definately ghetto and cheap tho.
    - Jamie<br /><br />1996 SR5 4Runner 4X4 Auto, Deckplate Mod,&nbsp; Hayden Tranny Cooler,&nbsp; Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift - SOLD, but still miss it!<br /><br />2005 Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel 4WD

  2. #12

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    When discussing the effect dampness had on the beads effectiveness...

    When I say wet, I just mean damp from condensation which can tend to clump the material and reduce its efficiency. If you use gasses other than regular air this may reduce that problem.

    As far as static, I was told by Counteract that it was a good thing and the Equal guy didn't mention it at all. From an engineering standpoint I would think it was good because it may help in the instantaneous situation where your tire is rebalancing itself (such as accel or deccel). Other than that I am not sure of what benefit or detriment it might be.

    Counteract claimed to be getting 5-9% more fuel mileage by using their product and as you can imagine I am dying to get a few sample bags and try them in my truck. I know for truck fleets they were even going to a system where if you didn't want to purchase the balancing material outright, they would take 10% of the first year's fuel savings instead (I wish they did that for SUVs too!).....I am sure they make out like bandits on that deal if they are correct.
    - Jamie<br /><br />1996 SR5 4Runner 4X4 Auto, Deckplate Mod,&nbsp; Hayden Tranny Cooler,&nbsp; Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift - SOLD, but still miss it!<br /><br />2005 Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel 4WD

  3. #13

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    Just so people don't get confused....

    Radial balance: A heavy spot, stiff portion of the tire or vertical runout problem acting parallel to the tire centerline (typically tire)

    Lateral balance: Usually a sideways runout problem (rotor, tire, rim, etc) acting perpendicular to the centerline of the tire

    The balancing beads (like Counterbalance and Equal) will only cure a radial balance problem as someone mentioned since it uses centrifugal force to distribute the material and thus would have no way to create any sideways forces which result from lateral balance problems.
    - Jamie<br /><br />1996 SR5 4Runner 4X4 Auto, Deckplate Mod,&nbsp; Hayden Tranny Cooler,&nbsp; Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift - SOLD, but still miss it!<br /><br />2005 Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel 4WD

  4. #14

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    In regards to balancing beads used in semi rigs....

    BTW the big rig tires are just a little wider than a normal SUV tire (maybe 2-3 inches max) and a heck of alot taller (diameter-wise), not to mention they weigh about 4.5 times as much (typical passenger tire is about 20-25 lbs while truck tires are 100+ lbs each) which may also affect how the tires balance and what dynamic balance problems occur. The rims are also much taller and can go up to 24.5 inches in diameter. The tires are not flat inside as you guys suggested but the radius is larger due to the larger width of the tire.

    Also passenger tires can be retread just like truck tires can but are not done as often because the passenger retread industry got a bad rap due to a couple of retreaders doing poor quality work (and thus now it is heavily regulated but the US DOT) and many considered it not worth the risk to save on the cost (while if you own a fleet, any bit helps). In most cases now a retread can be as good and sometimes even better quality than a new tire (because the casing has already been thoroughly road tested). Most tires are designed to have the casings last 3-4 times as long as the tread will.
    - Jamie<br /><br />1996 SR5 4Runner 4X4 Auto, Deckplate Mod,&nbsp; Hayden Tranny Cooler,&nbsp; Amsoil Air Filter, OME 881/906 N86C/N91SC Lift - SOLD, but still miss it!<br /><br />2005 Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel 4WD

  5. #15

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    I am using air soft pellets to balance my Interco bias ply Swampers.

    I bought a few bottles of 0.17g pellets from Walmart (I couldn't find the heavier ones) and added them the last time that I remounted my tires on the beadlocks. I used the same weight as described by the Innovative Balancing table suggests for 38s.

    Some spill when you try and pour them in between the bead and wheel, just make sure it isn't too many. When you roll the tire around by itself you can hear the pellets rolling around. I have a couple hundred miles on them since and I don't have any complaints. The ride is decent with out any particularly bad vibrations. Of course it doesn't ride much like a luxury car or a car for that matter. I haven't taken any of the wheels apart yet so I don't know how well the pellets have held up or how much water I have in there now.

    Overall, I would do it again.

    Geoff
    84 Xcab: 38&quot;TSL/D44/4.56/ARB/350/4L60E/2.28/2.28/ARB/4.56/D60 (gone, sigh)<br />01 WJ 32s solids F&amp;R

  6. #16

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    Jim, don't tell them there is stuff in the tire, just have them balance, or try.

    Once you do this, you have kissed off machine balance. Because they move, the machine will usually freak out.

    When I had Equal, I went to a different tire place than usual. They came out after an hour telling me some how only one of my tires would balance in a way they thought was tolerable. The other three kept kicking out a different reading each time they were spun.

    The other side of this is once you get beadlocks, you are doing all your own tire work too.
    2k 4Runner&nbsp; Daily Driver<br />Long travel front<br />Longer travel rear<br />Diamonds, Foxes, Alcans and MT/R&#039;s <br />Goes fast and slow

  7. #17

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    I know some guys at discount who wheel. I think they would be cool with trying to balance them.
    &#039;00 SR5, &quot;Highlander&quot; <br />Dual Cases, Aisin Hubs, E-Lock&#039;d, Cryo&#039;d, Chromo&#039;d, ARB&#039;d, 315&#039;s, Sonoran Steel Bumper, Lift &amp; UCA&#039;s, 4 Crawl 1&quot; BL, Armored...etc.<br /><br />F-Toy #081 in progress<br />Dual Cases, 30 Splines, 5.71&#039;s, E-lockers, Hydro-Assist, 37&#039;s, DOM Hendrix Chassis, 80Proof, ORS, Sonoran Steel...etc.

  8. #18

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    They can try, but it hurts more than anything.

    You put the tire on the machine, spin it, it says where to add weight, then you spin again. Usually on the again part it is worse than it was before.

    I am ready to go in, have them break the back bead, drop some pellets in and call it good.

    Time to go airsoft shopping I guess!
    2k 4Runner&nbsp; Daily Driver<br />Long travel front<br />Longer travel rear<br />Diamonds, Foxes, Alcans and MT/R&#039;s <br />Goes fast and slow

  9. #19

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheese
    I am ready to go in, have them break the back bead, drop some pellets in and call it good.

    Time to go airsoft shopping I guess!
    I will probably just use pellets from day one and call it good.
    &#039;00 SR5, &quot;Highlander&quot; <br />Dual Cases, Aisin Hubs, E-Lock&#039;d, Cryo&#039;d, Chromo&#039;d, ARB&#039;d, 315&#039;s, Sonoran Steel Bumper, Lift &amp; UCA&#039;s, 4 Crawl 1&quot; BL, Armored...etc.<br /><br />F-Toy #081 in progress<br />Dual Cases, 30 Splines, 5.71&#039;s, E-lockers, Hydro-Assist, 37&#039;s, DOM Hendrix Chassis, 80Proof, ORS, Sonoran Steel...etc.

  10. #20

    Re: Dynamic Tire balancing?

    I just placed an order with Dyna Beads, should be here this week......
    99 SR5 4Runner Highlander 5spd V6 4WD e-locker<br />Myspace<br />3rd Gen Bumper Build-up<br />1GR-FE 4.0L V-6 &amp; RA60F 6-speed for my project vehicle<br /><br /><br />Don&#039;t Ask when I&#039;m gonna go SAS, I&#039;m not... I&#039;ll build a buggy first!

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