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Thread: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

  1. #1

    Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    Exaggerated and inaccurate claims about the threat from global warming risk undermining efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions and contain climate change, senior scientists have told The Times.

    Environmental lobbyists, politicians, researchers and journalists who distort climate science to support an agenda erode public understanding and play into the hands of sceptics, according to experts including a former government chief scientist.

    Excessive statements about the decline of Arctic sea ice, severe weather events and the probability of extreme warming in the next century detract from the credibility of robust findings about climate change, they said.

    Such claims can easily be rebutted by critics of global warming science to cast doubt on the whole field. They also confuse the public about what has been established as fact, and what is conjecture.
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    The experts all believe that global warming is a real phenomenon with serious consequences, and that action to curb emissions is urgently needed.

    They fear, however, that the contribution of natural climate variations towards events such as storms, melting ice and heatwaves is too often overlooked, and that possible scenarios about future warming are misleadingly presented as fact.

    “I worry a lot that NGOs [non=governmental organizations] are very much in the habit of doing exactly that,” said Professor Sir David King, director of the Smith School for Enterprise and the Environment at the University of Oxford, and a former government chief scientific adviser.

    “When people overstate happenings that aren’t necessarily climate change-related, or set up as almost certainties things that are difficult to establish scientifically, it distracts from the science we do understand. The danger is they can be accused of scaremongering. Also, we can all become described as kind of left-wing greens.”

    Vicky Pope, head of climate change advice at the Met Office, said: “It isn’t helpful to anybody to exaggerate the situation. It’s scary enough as it is.”

    She was particularly critical of claims made by scientists and environmental groups two years ago, when observations showed that Arctic sea ice had declined to the lowest extent on record, 39 per cent below the average between 1979 and 2001. This led Mark Serreze, of the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre, to say that Arctic ice was “in a downward spiral and may have passed the point of no return”.

    Dr Pope said that while climate change was a factor, normal variations also played a part, and it was always likely that ice would recover a little in subsequent years, as had happened. It was the long-term downward trend that mattered, rather than the figures for any one year, she added.

    “The problem with saying that we’ve reached a tipping point is that when the extent starts to increase again — as it has — the skeptics will come along and say, ‘Well, it’s stopped’,” she said. “This is why it’s important we’re as objective as we can be, and use all the available evidence to make clear what’s actually happening, because neither of those claims is right.”

    Myles Allen, head of the Climate Dynamics Group at the University of Oxford, said: “Some claims that were made about the ice anomaly were misleading. A lot of people said this is the beginning of the end of Arctic ice, and of course it recovered the following year and everybody looked a bit silly.” Dr Allen said that predictions of how the world was likely to warm also needed to be framed carefully. While there was little doubt that the Earth would get hotter, there were still many uncertainties about the precise extent and regional impact.

    “I think we need to be very careful about purporting to be able to supply very detailed and apparently accurate information about how the climate will be in 50 or 100 years’ time, when what we’re really giving is a possible future climate,” he added.

    “We’re not in a position to say how likely it is and what the chances are of it being different. There’s an understandable tendency to want to make climate change real for people and tell them what’s going to happen in their postcode, and that’s very dangerous because it gets beyond the level on which current models can operate.”

    Chris Huntingford, of the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, said: “I think the research scientists in general are extremely cautious about making projections for the future, but that caution is vital. We don’t dispute that warming is happening, but it’s important that the NGOs and other people interested in the issue don’t always pick the high scenario and present it as fact.”

    Temperature trends of the past two decades have also been widely mis-interpreted to support particular points of view, the scientists said. Rapid warming in the 1990s, culminating in the hottest year on record in 1998, was erroneously used to suggest that climate change was accelerating. Since then, temperatures have stabilized, prompting skeptics to claim that global warming has stopped.

    “In 1998, people thought the world was going to end, temperatures were going up so much,” Dr Pope said. “People pick up whatever makes their argument, but this works both ways. It’s the long-term trend that counts, which is continuing and inexorable.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6896152.ece

    An excellent article that logically approaches the changing of our climate and what is wrong with the current movement.

    The "change, and change it NOW" movement is not only dangerous, but as the article states, damages REAL movements to address the changing of the climate.

    We must approach this from multiple angles. Reducing emissions in a manner that does not damage economies of various countries (the USA included), accepting the fact that the climate WILL change regardless of human input and what we should do to prepare for areas that will be severely impacted, and actually allow for discussions from various sources and come up with plans that most can compromise on.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  2. #2

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    Its all been a bunch of BS from the getgo, just cause your a scientist doesnt mean your always right.
    Marc<br />96&#39; T100 SR5 4x4<br /><br />Other rides:<br />00 Honda 416EX

  3. #3

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    I'll argue that some of it hasn't been BS. Here's my opinion on the matter:

    No one can argue that the climate changes, we've got enough proof of that. The reasons why.... now that's another issue, and the current problem. However, regardless of why, it changes, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes a little bit, sometimes a lot. So, with that basic fact, we are faced with three real options.

    The first is to ignore it, pretend it doesn't happen, and address the issues after they happen. Obviously not a good route to go.

    The second is to go to the cause and try to address it there. This only works if you are sure of the cause, AND can actually stop it. Herein lies the problem. We have several different groups of people claiming they know the cause. Let's throw away any 'arguing' and look at what we ALL can agree on, the climate has changed in the past with zero human impact occurring. What that leads me to believe is that it will change now, and in the future regardless of human impact. So, the question to the proponents of GW or 'climate change' is, is the real goal to actually control the earth's climate? Or is it to simply control the human impact on the climate? If this is true, then how would it be suggested to tackle the natural warming, cooling, and ice age trends? This leads me to my last real option:

    Prepare for it. We KNOW the climate will change, how fast, and why are always going to be somewhat of a guess, so instead of focusing on the whys, how about we focus on the ways we can prepare for when it does? This seems to be the most logical solution to me.

    Lastly, we know the oil will run out, as with other forms of 'limited' fuel. As a result, the market WILL find solutions to this through the use of renewable resources, that is inevitable. Sure, one can argue that some nudge in that general direction might be a good idea, but it will go that way regardless because of the finite amount of oil we are able to use.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  4. #4

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    The article above is a good one. Its a real problem, and, being a climate scientist, we are constantly given talks about how to address the press and other media outlets, as it is all to easy to get sucked into a long diatribe, and then the media outlet chops up the interview to best fit with a doomsday scenario, which, conveniently, sells.

    As for BS and the other comments, sorry, but no.

    Scientists can be wrong. Global warming is not an issue pressed forth by a single scientist, nor a single group of scientists. Thousands of scientists from dozens of country's have written thousands of papers done with independent studies, with a wide variety of funding, of MANY parts of the climate, and all arrive at the same conclusion:

    The earth is warming, and humans are a significant contributing factor.

    In my lab, we do isotope geochemistry. We look at isotope ratios of Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen both in real time atmospheric samples, and historical samples from ice cores.

    In atmosphere, we look at CO2 and CH4. We can tell exactly (well, to 0.04 permil reproduceability) what percentage of gas comes from what sources, ie: given a sample of methane extracted from air, we can tell by the isotopic signatures where that gas came from. So, we can tell if the methane (or CO2) came from combustion of fossil fuels, biomass burning, coal mining, etc...

    But, as always, I invite people to research this on your own.

    However, read everything with a skeptical mind. ALWAYS check the sources, and take into account the bias of those sources. If a scientist works for some ultra green party, or works for a university, or works for exxon mobile, read the paper with that bias in mind.

    One important thing to do: NEVER believe a word that the media puts out. I've got global warming coming out of my butt and I cannot stomach what these "advocates" of global warming in the media put out. Plenty of publications online that are legitimate to research on.

    Lastly, I'd like to ask a question: for those opposed to global warming, or even those that think its a hoax, what exactly is your problem with the solutions? Ignore the irritating coverage and the hippy morons who think it best to live in a pigsty and eat rabbit food, those people are radical and don't represent real solutions. But, what about the actual tangible things is an issue?

    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

  5. #5

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    Quote Originally Posted by AxleIke
    The article above is a good one. Its a real problem, and, being a climate scientist, we are constantly given talks about how to address the press and other media outlets, as it is all to easy to get sucked into a long diatribe, and then the media outlet chops up the interview to best fit with a doomsday scenario, which, conveniently, sells.

    As for BS and the other comments, sorry, but no.

    Scientists can be wrong. Global warming is not an issue pressed forth by a single scientist, nor a single group of scientists. Thousands of scientists from dozens of country's have written thousands of papers done with independent studies, with a wide variety of funding, of MANY parts of the climate, and all arrive at the same conclusion:

    The earth is warming, and humans are a significant contributing factor.

    In my lab, we do isotope geochemistry. We look at isotope ratios of Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen both in real time atmospheric samples, and historical samples from ice cores.

    In atmosphere, we look at CO2 and CH4. We can tell exactly (well, to 0.04 permil reproduceability) what percentage of gas comes from what sources, ie: given a sample of methane extracted from air, we can tell by the isotopic signatures where that gas came from. So, we can tell if the methane (or CO2) came from combustion of fossil fuels, biomass burning, coal mining, etc...

    But, as always, I invite people to research this on your own.

    However, read everything with a skeptical mind. ALWAYS check the sources, and take into account the bias of those sources. If a scientist works for some ultra green party, or works for a university, or works for exxon mobile, read the paper with that bias in mind.

    One important thing to do: NEVER believe a word that the media puts out. I've got global warming coming out of my butt and I cannot stomach what these "advocates" of global warming in the media put out. Plenty of publications online that are legitimate to research on.

    Lastly, I'd like to ask a question: for those opposed to global warming, or even those that think its a hoax, what exactly is your problem with the solutions? Ignore the irritating coverage and the hippy morons who think it best to live in a pigsty and eat rabbit food, those people are radical and don't represent real solutions. But, what about the actual tangible things is an issue?

    Well said!

    To address the issues, I'd say that it's not the solutions, but how fast and the fear put forth by the message. Taxes, increased control of the government, etc is what I think most people have issues with. That, at least, is where I take issue with the "movement" afoot, not with the issue, but rather the approach.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  6. #6

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    Those are valid issues, though I suppose coming from where I do, I see things a bit differently.

    I think the government could change things very effectively by incentives aimed at promoting cleaner practices/alternative energy/conservation through tax breaks/rebates. They are doing some now, they could do more.

    I also think that our economy is deeply rooted in oil and gas. Yes, I agree that the market will eventually get around to alternative sources of energy, but it'll be after the shizzle hits the fan.

    Oil is too easy right now. In my view, government funded alternative energy research is exactly what we need, and I see it as more of an investment into our future rather than a burden here and now. And, we need more of it.

    The scare tactics are just that: tactics. Special interest groups want money. Scared people donate. Politicians want votes: scared constituents want to be re-assured and safe. That's why I find the article above so good, because its exactly right. Most people can't dissect the facts from the baloney in these articles. And most people rely on the media for current events and updates. Its pretty sad.

    Journalism is just business these days, and whatever sells is what gets written. The reality of global warming is daunting, and needs attention, but hard science is mind-numbingly boring, and "the world is ending in 100 years" sells more news papers and gets more hits on the web.

    Really, what we are talking about here are minor changes in daily living that will save money for just about everyone, and be scarcely noticed: turning off lights, conserving water, walking/biking when possible (this could also help with our nations obesity problem likely). And, spending money, either through taxes or by supporting businesses, on alternative forms of energy, and, preferably more than one.
    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

  7. #7

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    Quote Originally Posted by AxleIke
    Those are valid issues, though I suppose coming from where I do, I see things a bit differently.

    I think the government could change things very effectively by incentives aimed at promoting cleaner practices/alternative energy/conservation through tax breaks/rebates. They are doing some now, they could do more.

    I also think that our economy is deeply rooted in oil and gas. Yes, I agree that the market will eventually get around to alternative sources of energy, but it'll be after the shizzle hits the fan.

    Oil is too easy right now. In my view, government funded alternative energy research is exactly what we need, and I see it as more of an investment into our future rather than a burden here and now. And, we need more of it.
    Actually, we agree on the approach. I don't think it's as wise to tax carbon. I'd much rather see offers for tax breaks and incentives. When I say nudge, that's exactly what I mean. For example, look at CFL bulbs, a PRIME example of how to help things go in the right direction. Offer rebates, tax incentives, etc. not only that, but prove that you can save money with green(er) technology.

    I'll create a thread about this, but I bought a house about 1.5 months ago, it was gutted (previous owner was foreclosed on, and stole everything from the sinks to the outlets. Anyways, my point is that I've had to buy *a lot* of stuff for the house, and while it cost more to get all CFL or LED bulbs, it's going to save me TONS in energy, which when calculated out over the life results in a nice savings.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  8. #8

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    It's too bad that those with a political agenda have radicalized a scientific issue. Now no one trusts the remedy as genuine. I suspect there is some human influence as well as natural climate cycles involved. The trick is to determine the ratios and the cost/benefit absent political prejudice...

    Trust is why lying by distortion, omission and distraction is so harmful. Once trust is lost, no one will lend credibility to the subject again. We can thank AlGore for that. Ever wonder why he won't debate his conclusions and when surprised by confrontation, he gets pissy and pejorative?
    SI VIS PACEM PARABELLUM

  9. #9

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    George Patton said "A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan next week." I agree that clean energy is the way to go and that we should decrease our impact on the planet for multiple reasons. I however am a practical and cheap bastard and think that the solutions I hear espoused by my neighbors don't work. Solar and wind power are great ideas but are inconsistent and we can't store energy unless we build batteries the size of Portland. Coal is dirty no matter how many times you scrub it (look at coal mine pictures and see if you agree). That leaves us with LNG and nuclear. Both are better but neither has much support, so that unfortunately leaves us wishing for something better that is always a few years away. Until I hear someone actually advocate nuclear power I can't believe that they actually believe in global warming. It's a similar problem with urban sprawl. Few people want to drive for groceries, the gym, the park, a bar, and dinner but living in the city is expensive.
    96 4Runner, 2.7L 4WD<br />&quot;Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition. &quot; - Jefferson

  10. #10

    Re: Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warn

    The thing is, we need multiple sources of energy.

    Pollution is just an over-abundance of a certain thing. One source of energy, even something new, is going to produce pollutants in some form or another.

    I think we need all of it and more.

    Some nuclear, some wind, some solar, some new stuff that we haven't found yet. And we need FAR more efficient forms of storage: better batteries, better effeciency, etc...

    I agree though, what is currently being proposed is bogus. My boss has solar, and he just BARELY breaks even every year. He essentially pays 0$ to the electric company because some days he gets paid by the electric company, and other day's he pays them. He'd be screwed without the power company though.

    With better battery storage, solar in a place like the southwest makes a lot of sense. Not so much in the north east.
    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

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