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Thread: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

  1. #1

    Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    European cars offer a diesel engine with just about every one of their cars and it's high time we in the US do the same. Diesel technology in cars has improved by leaps and bounds and you can easily beat a Prius in a diesel car these days. The big federal tax on diesel is outrageous when you consider how much more per gallon it is for diesel vs 87 octane gas. If our government lowered the tax on diesel, I think a lot more people would no longer be scared when they see how much more a gallon of diesel goes for vs 87 octane.

    I bought a 2010 Golf TDI a month ago and I have to say that I'm blown away by it. I've driven a Prius and there's no comparison to something like my Golf. I can drive it reasonably and get great (45+) mileage or choose to drive like my hair is on fire and get in the mid 30 mpg. I really don't think that all this hybrid/electric car stuff is the answer because when you look at the total amount of energy that goes into making a hybrid vs a diesel car, the hybrid does way more damage to the environment because of all the resources, energy, and difficulty of making those huge batteries.

    Ultimately, hydrogren is the answer our country needs because you can fill it up in the same amount of time it takes to fill up your car and you can run your house easily on your car's fuel cell when you're at home (you could power your block too for that matter).

    So for anyone that is considering buying a gas-saving DD, take a test drive in something like a VW Golf TDi or a Jetta TDI and if you enjoy driving, I think you'll find that a hybrid just doesn't provide anywhere near the same level of fun as a diesel.

    I'm not here to grandstand for VW's TDI line, but the technology has caught up in the commercial vehicle market and more people need to give it a chance.
    [glow=blue,2,300]2002 4WD TOYOTA TACOMA "TURTLE TACO"[/glow]  <All the goods listed here>

  2. #2

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    I agree. I would much rather have a diesel car over a hybrid. I think hybrids are just a fad, but I think we may see more and more pure electric vehicles. I would love to see hydrogen cars catch on, but I just don't see that happening.

    Also, we keep hearing politicians push for more alternative fuel sources. From what I understand, it is much easier to create an alternative fuel, such as algae based fuels, for a diesel than it is for a gas motor. So, I think if the government is really serious, they need to cut diesel taxes and try to get the price of diesel at least a dollar cheaper. Once people see that diesel is cheaper and get over the idea that diesel is so much more pollutant, we will see VW diesel sales go up (and to a smaller extent BMW and Mercedes). Next, Toyota, Honda, ect will want in the game. I think cutting diesel prices and pushing for diesel automobiles is the most logical next step in creating alternative fuels.

    And as a side note, almost every part of our economy is effected by diesel prices in some form. Whether it be hauling freight by truck or train, building infrastructure, farming, whatever, we rely heavily on diesel fuels. IMHO, cutting the price of diesel would be a fantastic way to help our economy.

    I don't understand why diesel is so much more expensive than regular gas. Isn't diesel less refined? Is it just because diesel is taxed more?

    I love the BMW 335d. And in Europe, BMW makes a 320 diesel that gets over 50mpg.

    Anyways, just my 0.02.
    -Daniel2000 4Runner Sport | V6 | 5spd | 4x4 | Leather | 265/75-16 BFG AT/KO | OBA | BudBuilt front skid

    1990 4Runner SR5 | V6 | Auto | 2wd | 3.90 rear | Cobra CB | 265/65r17 Bridgestone Duelers H/Ts | '08 Tacoma 5 spoke rims | Has an 11:1 crawl ratio! SOLD

  3. #3

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    Diesel is really taxed by the government because the prime users are the truckers and so they justify the tax by the amount of wear the big rigs do to the interstate system roads. Unfortunately, there are people who DON'T drive big rigs that also buy diesel.

    Non-highway uses of diesel (i.e. farms, marine) get tax-free diesel which is dyed pink, but only available at marinas and by special order for farms. Whenever the diesel prices spike, the truckers like to steal diesel from farm equipment but the workers at the truck stops inspect their tanks to see if there is any pinkish color that would indicate that they're using illegal diesel fuel.

    Diesel is much less refined than gasoline, which is why gasoline is so hard to find in 3rd world countries and remote areas.

    In Mexico, you can buy the VW Polo/Lupo brand new, which will get around 75 MPG!! I've seen a few on the road around SD.

    Speaking of BMW, they have a diesel powered version of their 5 series that is very nearly as fast as the gas powered V10 5-series.
    [glow=blue,2,300]2002 4WD TOYOTA TACOMA "TURTLE TACO"[/glow]  <All the goods listed here>

  4. #4

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanto

    Diesel is much less refined than gasoline, which is why gasoline is so hard to find in 3rd world countries and remote areas.
    In the past this was true, but not anymore.

    Because it is a heavier hydrocarbon, diesel oil takes less refining; in the past this made it less expensive than gasoline. But as air pollution controls have become more stringent, diesel oil must be refined to have a lower percentage of sulfur, making its refinement process more expensive. Although diesel has a higher energy output per gallon than gasoline, it takes approximately 25 percent more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel oil than it does to make a gallon of gasoline.
    http://www.ehow.com/facts_7265461_di...esel-fuel.html
    Keith '88 4runner SR5 Garage Thread

  5. #5

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    huh...I forgot about the pink diesel. I guess cheaper diesel prices will still help truckers and help keep the price of goods from going up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanto
    In Mexico, you can buy the VW Polo/Lupo brand new, which will get around 75 MPG!! I've seen a few on the road around SD.

    Speaking of BMW, they have a diesel powered version of their 5 series that is very nearly as fast as the gas powered V10 5-series.
    I remember seeing some of those Polos in Mexico. Wish we could get them here.

    I hear the diesel 3 series is really quick too, and it looks like BMW now offers a diesel X5.
    -Daniel2000 4Runner Sport | V6 | 5spd | 4x4 | Leather | 265/75-16 BFG AT/KO | OBA | BudBuilt front skid

    1990 4Runner SR5 | V6 | Auto | 2wd | 3.90 rear | Cobra CB | 265/65r17 Bridgestone Duelers H/Ts | '08 Tacoma 5 spoke rims | Has an 11:1 crawl ratio! SOLD

  6. #6

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    I'll argue on the other side for this one because of a rather unique insight I have into the world of electric cars. A friend at work is very much into electric cars, hybrids, and cars in general. He's had electric cars in the past including back when their range was only 40-50 miles and he's had hybrids too.

    While I don't think hybrids are a fad, I do think they are a stepping stone to pure electric. In fact, once the plug in hybrids start to show up in greater numbers on the lots, we'll probably replace the wife's corolla with one.

    My friend at work just got a Nissan Leaf...the 2nd one in AZ...and I've ridden in it quite a bit. It's a fascinating car. The weirdest thing about it is the lack of noise when it moves. For the first time rider, your first reaction when the car takes off is to warn the driver that the car is rolling because it feels like it shouldn't be. There's no engine reving up to subconsciously tell you the car is about to move.

    If the battery lives up to the hype and expectations, it is a great leap in battery technology. It should be relatively immune to temperature, very little age effects and great energy density. With a charger running off of 220V at home, it'll take 7 hours to charge up to 80%, while a fast charger at public stations running off of 480V will charge the car up to 80% in 30 minutes. So basically, use the car to commute to work, run errands, then charge it up overnight.

    For now, a pure electric car will not be a replacement if you only have 1 car. It'll be for commute and errands. Electric will only take off once the technology and infrastructure gets good enough so that one can drive across country as easily as a gas car. One way they could speed things up is to have battery swap out stations where you would just pull up and they take out your dead battery and replace it with a charged one. Li Ion batteries are in their infancy right now and hopefully they will get better and better over the years. Or some other electric energy storage technology will be developed.

    The big problem with any other energy is the lack of infrastructure to deliver the energy to a car. Electricity is available everywhere, just like gasoline is. Where can I get hydrogen? From water? It takes a lot of electricity to turn water into hydrogen.

    This is the reason why I think electricity will come into favor before hydrogen does. It'll take the government to create the infrastructure to get hydrogen to us and given the current economic atmosphere with the republicans and democrats arguing about the budget, such a budget will never pass.

    Also, based on admittedly old data (10 years now), my friend who was working on his PhD in fuel cell work, said it would take more platinum known to exist on earth to provide enough fuel cells for every car in america. Maybe technology has changed since then, I don't know.
    -------------------------
    Steve
    1993 4runner, SAS, 3.0L, Auto Tranny
    2007 4runner, stock. For now.

  7. #7

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    Quote Originally Posted by DHC6twinotter
    I agree. I would much rather have a diesel car over a hybrid. I think hybrids are just a fad, but I think we may see more and more pure electric vehicles. I would love to see hydrogen cars catch on, but I just don't see that happening.

    Also, we keep hearing politicians push for more alternative fuel sources. From what I understand, it is much easier to create an alternative fuel, such as algae based fuels, for a diesel than it is for a gas motor. So, I think if the government is really serious, they need to cut diesel taxes and try to get the price of diesel at least a dollar cheaper. Once people see that diesel is cheaper and get over the idea that diesel is so much more pollutant...
    Not to mention technically IIRC from my chem class diesel is a byproduct of the cracking process. It requires less work to manufacture yet for some stupid reason has skyrocketed more in price inflation than gasoline has. Someone's making $, yet it would be so simple to spec the D4-D stateside, or allow installs of imported's easier. If I had to come to decide to do a diesel swap over a new purchase versus a 3.4, honestly I would be hard pressed to do a 3.4 looking at things in a long term perspective. *[EDIT]Yep, my memory's correct, except it happens in distillation, not cracking: http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...-refining2.htm

    Companies like TESLA are pushing the boundaries, but not at the rate they can simply because of draconian regulations and laws.

    @Robinhood, wait for it, I'm sure the day will come when they actually start laying inductives and pickup paddles down interstates. There's a test line in California as we speak.

  8. #8
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    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    my biggest issue with electric cars is that people dont think about where that energy is coming from. They say, "Buy electric because they have no emissions". Well, last time i checked, most of this country is still powered by coal plants, which produce WAY more emissions than any vehicle ever. And also, if everyone started driving electric cars, just imagine the strain on the power grids. As it is right now out here in California our power grid is at (exceeding) capacity during the summer months.

    I too would love to see Hydrogen cars come to fruition, but i know that they lack practicality. They have the fuel cell technology, in working production cars, but its still just a novelty until they have more than the 3 or 4 metropolitan areas set up with a infrastructure for it.

    With that in mind, until they figure something else viable out, i believe diesel would be our best bet. Modern diesels are NOTHING like the old smoke blowing nasty engines of the 80s and 90s, and many actually run cleaner than their gas counterparts. I believe the pro's of diesel far outweigh its con's.. It is cheaper and easier to refine than gasoline, it has more energy output at the molecular level such that it takes less quantity to make the same energy (hence better gas mileage) and your not killing the planet with all the pollutants from the processes necessary to create the battery cells. (The pollution caused by the plants making the batteries for a Prius would take the P-ZEV vehicle like 12 years to make up for, the catch is that you are supposed to replace the batteries every 10 years) >.< so much for a green vehicle.

    The only other viable option (right now) is Natural Gas, but it is also a limited resource that is stretched near its limits at certain times of the year.

    Honestly diesel is the only option i see for now, unfortunately i doubt our government (and all the big oil lobbies) will let that happen completely.

    I vote we bring the Stanley Steamer back! with todays technology we could boil the water way faster and be moving down the street fairly quickly, and fuel is just a garden hose away. Steamers back 100 years ago could already travel fairly long distances at speeds up to around 45-50 mph, now combine that with 100 years of innovation, i bet they could make a very nice steam powered vehicle.
    - Kevin

    2018 Taco TRD Pro - 2.5" lift, 33" tires, everything else stock.
    2012 Triumph Tiger XC - Stock

  9. #9

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    Reason for high(er) costs of diesel: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...more_than.html

    The HUGE downside to electric vehicles is the range and recharge time. I'll never own one unless the cost is so low I can afford it as a second vehicle, or the charging time becomes similar to what it takes to refuel a vehicle with gas/diesel. Until then, electric cars/trucks/etc have no practicality for me. I go on long trips and having to stop every few hundred miles to let it charge for 30 mins to 7 hours would be difficult to say the least.

    Of course this is not to say that there are not places where electric cars will work right now. Many people around Seattle don't travel more than 30 miles, to and from their homes, great choice for them.

    Hybrids are a fad, as they are currently being built. Hybrids are just a way to make our existing fuel source (gas/diesel) more efficient which is a great stepping stone.

    I've never liked how hybrids are being built right now when far more efficient vehicles can be built.

    Take a small, very efficient turbo or NA diesel engine, and hook it up to a battery bank and 4 electric motors (one for each wheel). The vehicle will be an electric vehicle that is powered off of diesel, you can also incorporate regenerative braking and also allow it to be plugged into the wall.
    Gone but not forgotten: 2004 Tacoma/2006 Fourwheel Camper<br /><br />ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ<br /><br />&quot;Tyrants mistrust the people, hence they deprive them of arms.&quot;<br />- Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)

  10. #10

    Re: Why the US needs to embrace DIESEL

    Oly, your comment about the recharge time on electric cars reminded me of an episode of Top Gear where James May came to america to test Honda's hydrogen powered car and he commented on how we base our lives on the concept of the car as we know it. He went on to describe how we plan on being able to drive our cars as far as we want and then fill up with more fuel (power) in just a couple minutes and how an electric car that needs hours to recharge will mean that we will have gone backwards because it doesn't fit our driving habits.

    Back to discussing Europeans, I think that the other thing they have over us is that they aren't afraid of small cars to just get you to work and especially in the cities as a runabout. If we as Americans could get away from our love of big SUV's and trucks for our personal vehicles in areas that clearly don't need it we would be much better off. Not to say that SUVs and trucks don't have their purpose in remote areas, farms, etc. but a large percentage of people just don't need them to do what they want.

    As far as platinum resources go, researchers have already identified processes that require significantly less platinum required in the catalyst and in at least one case, a platinum-free catalyst developed in Japan.

    With the energy required to separate pure Hydrogen, the cleanest and most efficient way of making power for the consumer grid is still Nuclear energy. Sure it creates highly radioactive waste, but if disposed properly, it's hard to ignore the incredible efficiency of the process. There have been ideas put out that involve drilling miles below the crust and dropping the radioactive waste down there where it makes its way down and eventually dissipates into the mantle.
    [glow=blue,2,300]2002 4WD TOYOTA TACOMA &quot;TURTLE TACO&quot;[/glow]&nbsp; &lt;All the goods listed here&gt;

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