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Thread: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

  1. #11

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4runnerchevy
    I don't know how many people here, use it on a daily basis.
    I do.

    I use liquid nitrogen every day in my job, as well as gaseous nitrogen, along with a great many other gasses.

    The OP is not some race specialized engineer trying to squeeze a few 10ths of a second out of his car to win, he is an average driver talking about a 4runner.

    So, for his use, and the vast majority of the rest of the members here, paying for nitrogen in his tires is a total scam.

    CO2 costs about 15 bucks a fill, and is far superior because of its ability to fill more tires than nitrogen, and, with the exception of engine driven compressors, can reach higher pressures than air compressors, so seating beads, and running air tools is possible, making it the ideal OBA system.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4runnerchevy
    I could care less about the science, but for its use
    Sounds like your employers care a great deal about the science. As they should.
    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

  2. #12

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    This looks like a resurfacing of a trend I learned about in general chemistry. Apparently some years ago busineseswere trying to sell this kind of stuff on two claims: one, that nitrogen filled tired deflate at a slower rate, and two, that in an accident, a punctured tire filled with nitrogen is safer somehow than normal air (something to do with fires). What I learned in chemistry is that both of these claims are bogus. Total marketing bullshit preying on the ignorance of the usual consumer. Now it appears these same people have reared their heads again, using different claims. Some facts first of all. Air is already about 78% nitrogen and 20% oxygen by volume (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air). Thus the company is offering what looks like a replacement of most of the oxygen molecules with nitrogen. At 2% oxygen content you have ten times less oxygen per volume than normal air.

    Now to address these new claims. First, they cite facts about the bad things that happen if you don't keep your tires inflated properly. All of the benefits of proper tire inflation can be achieved with normal air. Secondly, if my education serves me well, the claim that "With PurigeN98, tires hold their pressure longer." is incorrect due to the law of effusion of gases. In fact, as rate of effusion is inversely proportional to the mass of the gas molecule (lighter molecules escape faster than heavier ones), and that nitrogen is lighter than oxygen, the tire may deflate even faster with PurigeN98 than when compared to normal air. This is of course assuming that any channels through which the gases may escape is large enough to permit either nitrogen or oxygen.

    Thirdly, and I'll concede this point partially, they claim your tires will oxidize slower if you use their product. Now obviously we are talking about the oxidation of the interior of the tire surface, as the exterior is still in contact with normal air. This is were my knowledge halts my opinion. I have not taken any chemistry courses that would cover the oxidatin of rubbers. It is true that such a thing happens, as we all know, old rubber gets hard. I am assuming this is due to the oxidation of the polymer in some way. This obviously could contribute to the degredation of your tires. But, as one who tends to keep his tires properly inflated, I must say from firsthand experience that properly inflated tires will become dangerously threadbare before they fall apart from internal or external oxidation.

    In conclusion, find a gas station who has free compressed air, keep your tires properly inflated, and don't waste money on this hype.

    (sorry this was so long, but I hate seeing companies pull this kind of stuff on the unsuspecting consumer)
    99 SR5 4Runner Highlander 5spd V6 4WD e-locker<br />Myspace<br />3rd Gen Bumper Build-up<br />1GR-FE 4.0L V-6 &amp; RA60F 6-speed for my project vehicle<br /><br /><br />Don&#039;t Ask when I&#039;m gonna go SAS, I&#039;m not... I&#039;ll build a buggy first!

  3. #13

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    I use it everyday too. Back in the semiconductor industry with liquid nitrogen and now gas form in the aerospace industry. Plus, I know the science behind it.
    -------------------------
    Steve
    1993 4runner, SAS, 3.0L, Auto Tranny
    2007 4runner, stock. For now.

  4. #14

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    I wonder if MythBusters has done this test yet? I guess I'll go suggest it at their website

    Edit* this was already done on MythBusters and was BUSTED!
    99 SR5 4Runner Highlander 5spd V6 4WD e-locker<br />Myspace<br />3rd Gen Bumper Build-up<br />1GR-FE 4.0L V-6 &amp; RA60F 6-speed for my project vehicle<br /><br /><br />Don&#039;t Ask when I&#039;m gonna go SAS, I&#039;m not... I&#039;ll build a buggy first!

  5. #15

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    LOL.

    Good posting.

    People always try to argue science. They never win.
    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

  6. #16

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    Jeez guys, it's obvious that N2 has magic properties that helps balance your car's Chi.

    ... Billy Mays here for Nitro-Air- the rare lab-created gas makes your tires last 50x longer and gives your car that extra "pep"!

    Brian
    1998 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4x4
    Supercharged, URD'd, Lifted, etc. etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodTimes
    I for one will say that I am the superb ultimate cream of the crop web wheeler and will not take anything less than that as my moniker.

  7. #17

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    Quote Originally Posted by mastacox
    Jeez guys, it's obvious that N2 has magic properties that helps balance your car's Chi.

    ... Billy Mays here for Nitro-Air- the rare lab-created gas makes your tires last 50x longer and gives your car that extra "pep"!

    LMAO!!!! Good One!

  8. #18

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    Thanks for the feedback guys! I was still sitting on the middle of the fence without much knowledge of the issue (Chemistry wasnt my strong point in school - Im a graphics artist)

    Looks like even with our crazy fluctuating temps here - I will be sticking with the good ol' fashion pay my quarter at the pumps
    <br />98 4Runner Limited<br />1999 Suzuki GSXR750 - Sold Apr/08

  9. #19

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    It's Bogus, but hey, I'm a Chemical Engineer, what do I know???

    It's bogus for the every-day application.

    Look at the heat capacity of Nitrogen, Oxygen and Air (~80% N2 and ~20% O2).

    Cp (heat capacity) of Nitrogen Gas at 300*K is 1.040 (kJ/kgK)
    Cp (heat capacity) of Oxygen Gas at 300*K is 0.918 (kJ/kgK)

    The difference in the heat capacity is a whopping 0.122 (kJ/kgK) or less than 12% between the two pure gases.

    Now, consider that air is ~80% N2 and ~20% O2. When doing the math you can see that the decrease in heat capacity of the gas filling the tire is only 2.3% less if you had air when compared to pure nitrogen. 2.3%. Therefore, it would be safe to deduce that Nitrogen would be slightly cooler for the same specific amount of energy input into a closed system (the tire/wheel in a closed environment). However, remember that the amount of energy input into the "system" of a tire/wheel when driving is continuous. The actual sensible temperature of the "system" will depend on the rate of heat into the system (friction from the tires/brakes, conduction w/ the road, radiant heat from the engine & nearby rotors/calipers, etc) and the rate of heat dissipation out of the system (heat transfer to the surrounding air as well as contact with any water, etc). Let's say you put X amount of heat into a tire filled with air and it reached Y temp. It will take you 1.023*X of energy (2.3% more) to get the tire filled with nitrogen to the same temperature, but since you have a pretty-much endless source of heat energy to put into the system, then the temp will eventually be the exact same for the same external conditions. The tires simply do NOT run "cooler" with nitrogen than with air.

    PV=nRT (neglecting compressibility factors since they are essentially equal for air & nitrogen)

    So, PV=nRT and since n*R is constant and V is almost constant w/ pressure since your tires don't expand in volume by a significant amount, then P1/T1 = P2/T2 making them a direct proportion.

    In other words, for a change from 30*F to 80*F, your tires will change about 10% in pressure (have to use absolute pressures & temperatures - PSIA, NOT PSIG, and *R NOT *F). For a 35PSIG tire at 80*F, you would be at about 32PSIG at 30*F.


    When going from 30*F to 80*F, the pressure inside a tire will change less than 10%, so from a very cold morning to warm driving temperatures, you will see a decrease of less than 3.5 PSIG for a tire initially inflated to 35PSIG at the warm temp. A tire filled with nitrogen would decrease in pressure by 2.3% less. Here's the hard numbers:

    P1/T1 = P2/T2 therefore,

    (P1/T1)*T2 = P2

    (49.7 PSIA / 539.67 *R) * (489.67 *R) = P2
    45.09 PSIA = 30.40 PSIG = P2

    So, If you have a tire filled with Air at 35 PSI on your tire gauge at 80*F and it gets cold, then the tire pressure will be 30.4 PSI on the same gauge at 30*F. The difference measured will be 4.6 PSI. Since nitrogen has a higher heat capacity, it will contract ever-so-slightly less - 2.3% less, remember.

    4.6 PSI * 0.977 = 4.49 PSI

    with air, you will be at 30.4 PSIG and with nitrogen, you will be at 30.5 PSIG.

    ONE-TENTH OF A PSI DIFFERENCE. WHOOPIE.


    links:

    http://blogs.consumerreports.org/car...nitrogen-.html

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...Overblown.aspx

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/070216.html

    -andy

  10. #20

    Re: Filling Tires with Nitrogen at home?

    LOL.

    I'm pretty sure 4runnerchevy is having fun with everyone.

    There is no way he'd be serious about his posts, hopefully everyone gets the joke, as this is actually turning into good tech, helping spread knowledge about this scam. I'd hate to see it degenerate into a pissing match over a couple of sarcastic posts.

    -I love you.-<br /><br />1987 BigWheel

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